Another Sage Shelved.

[kenbenobi]

defending bad game design is borderline idiotic.

 

I have to agree.

[DirtyBirdie]

You sure it's not Shadows you're seeing?

 

Balance isn't wonderful, it's just the only viable spec Sages have left. I don't think it's even viable against good teams and definitely won't be in rated. Against unorganized PUGs it can be fine because they don't know how to cleanse the DOTs, but good teams will always just outheal or cleanse the DOTs and kill the Sage's DPS and the Sage itself quickly. In PVP the goal is to do burst damage and take control of nodes and take enemies out of the battle. CC can help in limited times, but it's going to take longer to cap a node most of the time and by filling resolve you won't even be able to CC. Smart opponents will just heal up/get rid of the DOTs and their teams will swarm. Sure you can tab and dot up an entire team but that's not effective DPS, you're not actually assisting in a win that way.

 

^ This, except i still prefer the hybrid build of sage utilizing force wake, kinetic collapse vs all the god damn maras/assassins, and pinning resolve/containment for reduced stun time and better lift. Besides PP makes up for damage lost in my opinion and FiB + 2 PP's, mind crush, project is still pretty decent, but not great. Regardless, shelved the sage and rolled a sentinel like everybody else. PvP is kinda lame now as it quite often turns out to be a Sent/Mara & Assassin/Shadow fest which is boring as hell. Any competitive PvP team worth mentioning is not going to grab a bunch of sages and be like "OMG lets dot EVERYONE FTW yay!!!!". Sorry, its going to be more along the lines of lets go bootstomp everything in this order:

 

1) doesnt have a crazy defensive cooldown (you nerf the piss out of healing and defensive cooldowns are now king. Who would have thought THAT would have happened?)

2) is squishy. Bubbles are weak and sages drop like flies.

 

And its going to be single targeting 1 guy at a time not dot sharing. Flavor of the week rerolls are:

1) sent/mara for pvp dps

2) scoundrel/ops for healing and just a fun time it seems . scoundrels can be decent dps killers in pvp too.

 

Fingers crossed for upcoming buffs, although i think they'll buff disturbance damage, turbulence damage, and sever force damage & one of the following:

-longer root, say 4 seconds, with longer cooldown, say 15 seconds.

- cleanse prevention.

[Khadroth]

You sure it's not Shadows you're seeing?

 

Balance isn't wonderful, it's just the only viable spec Sages have left. I don't think it's even viable against good teams and definitely won't be in rated. Against unorganized PUGs it can be fine because they don't know how to cleanse the DOTs, but good teams will always just outheal or cleanse the DOTs and kill the Sage's DPS and the Sage itself quickly. In PVP the goal is to do burst damage and take control of nodes and take enemies out of the battle. CC can help in limited times, but it's going to take longer to cap a node most of the time and by filling resolve you won't even be able to CC. Smart opponents will just heal up/get rid of the DOTs and their teams will swarm. Sure you can tab and dot up an entire team but that's not effective DPS, you're not actually assisting in a win that way.

 

I think what will happen is the top balance talent will get a significant damage boost, as well as possibly an increased root time, and maybe mind crush will get a shortened cooldown.

 

It's more than viable against any opponent but even more so if YOUR team is good, it doesn't really matter how good the other team is. The more pressure your team applies, the more your dots rack up unnoticed. You become quite the force multiplier in that sense and it makes it impossible for even the best healers to outpace your group's dmg. I'd even go so far as to say I've come out on top of the meters on almost every premade vs. premade match I've been in (even the losses). Burst is important, but it also doesn't work against a quality team without sustained simultaneous pressure on their healers.

 

The "other teams will negate you" argument is completely false. In fact, you're quite impossible to negate as even if they focus fire you constantly (something I'm noticing more and more as the other premades have begun to head hunt me to take me out of node fights early) as your damage persists through death. Only another Sorc/Sage can cleanse your dots, and if they're a healer they frankly don't have enough GCD's or force power to waste on removing your dots from every one of their players. That only leaves stealthers who are forced to burn their removal cooldown to get back into stealth, which much to their chagrin, you then promptly pop them out with FiB or FQ and reapply dots.

 

Frankly people bashing balance in pvp either are bad at it or have never tried it and don't know what they're talking about.

[NemurY]

Learn to adapt or don't play MMO's, it is that simple.

 

Yeah learn to adapt ! Why don't you learn to fight that juggernaut and those two marauders who keep CC-ing you and DPS-ing you like hell while your teammates die ?

From my point of view i think sages at this moment are still overpowered, remove the light armor and nerf that awesome force armor skill. Maybe 3-4k constant hits wont be so bad after.

 

Thank you Bioware.

Edited April 25, 2012 by NemurY

[outblader]

defending bad game design is borderline idiotic.

 

Agreed

[outblader]

Yeah learn to adapt ! Why don't you learn to fight that juggernaut and those two marauders who keep CC-ing you and DPS-ing you like hell while your teammates die ?

From my point of view i think sages at this moment are still overpowered, remove the light armor and nerf that awesome force armor skill. Maybe 3-4k constant hits wont be so bad after.

 

Thank you Bioware.

of course a sith would like a nerf on the opposing faction

[NemurY]

of course a sith would like a nerf on the opposing faction

 

Well at this point, if my team is fighting a well organized empire premade, i can't do much with my sage. Two marauders jump me, keep me busy until they slaughter my teammates. Its like as soon as i leave the medcenter i get jumped. I've seen most pvp sage healing videos after 1.2 where everybody brags about "healing is fine in 1.2". I totally agree with them but until a certain point of view. When you get jumped by melee, your survive-ability turns to 0. Force Sprint and Armor and that CC breaker are a joke. LOS-ing will make your teammates unheal-able, and probably loose contact with your guard.

I've been debating this from some time now. When i get imperials that ignore you in pvp, your heal cap is above 500k. When you get jumped, your more as a offhand healer, or a burden to your premade.

[Khadroth]

Well at this point, if my team is fighting a well organized empire premade, i can't do much with my sage. Two marauders jump me, keep me busy until they slaughter my teammates. Its like as soon as i leave the medcenter i get jumped. I've seen most pvp sage healing videos after 1.2 where everybody brags about "healing is fine in 1.2". I totally agree with them but until a certain point of view. When you get jumped by melee, your survive-ability turns to 0. Force Sprint and Armor and that CC breaker are a joke. LOS-ing will make your teammates unheal-able, and probably loose contact with your guard.

I've been debating this from some time now. When i get imperials that ignore you in pvp, your heal cap is above 500k. When you get jumped, your more as a offhand healer, or a burden to your premade.

 

Well if you're pugging against a well organized premade what did you expect?

 

Your team still needs to keep melee from hounding you to death as a healer if they want to get anything done so if they don't realize that, they were bound to lose. If you're in a well-organized team of your own this ceases to be an issue, so I still don't see how this has anything to do with healing so much as it does the skill differential between teams.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Khadroth

[Lugh]

Well if you're pugging against a well organized premade what did you expect?

 

Your team still needs to keep melee from hounding you to death as a healer if they want to get anything done so if they don't realize that, they were bound to lose. If you're in a well-organized team of your own this ceases to be an issue, so I still don't see how this has anything to do with healing so much as it does the skill differential between teams.

 

There is a HUGE difference between now and Pre 1.2 ...And NOW when you see teams running 3 flavors of healer, and 3 Marauders with a Tank for good measure... and they always win, there is something seriously wrong with the game balance.

 

And yes those 4 non healers will hit you will the 4 healers perform CCs on your team.

 

Everyone complained about bottomless reserves of energy on Sage/ Sorcs pre 1.2, you know who has it now? Op/ Smuggler Healers and Marauders/Sentinels and PTs never had a resource problem to begin with and they gave them a spammable flameburst that will zero you after they leap on you before you get a resolve bar to break the stun.

[Visue]

Well if you're pugging against a well organized premade what did you expect?

 

This is how solo queueing goes these days. On Ajunta Pall, nearly every warzone match has at least a 4-person imperial premade. About half end up with full 8-person premades.

 

It's not fair to pit pre-planned, coordinated, geared groups on voice chat against random groups with no standards for gear and no means to communicate besides ops chat. Yet all PvP rewards are now based solely on this system.

 

It's not fun anymore, even in full BM gear. I'm not in a big guild, and I don't play empire. I'm not going to reroll empire or join a 500-person guild just so that I can group up and pounce on pugs with the rest of the geared PvPers on the server.

 

PvP changes released with the 1.2 patch were poorly thought-out, and changes to class balance were largely overcompensation. It's a good thing there's the free 30 day promotion to keep customers at the table. There is no way I would pay for a subscription to this game in its current state.

Edited April 27, 2012 by Visue

[Cormacus]

This is how solo queueing goes these days. On Ajunta Pall, nearly every warzone match has at least a 4-person imperial premade. About half end up with full 8-person premades.

 

It's not fair to pit pre-planned, coordinated, geared groups on voice chat against random groups with no standards for gear and no means to communicate besides ops chat. Yet all PvP rewards are now based solely on this system.

 

It's not fun anymore, even in full BM gear. I'm not in a big guild, and I don't play empire. I'm not going to reroll empire or join a 500-person guild just so that I can group up and pounce on pugs with the rest of the geared PvPers on the server.

 

PvP changes released with the 1.2 patch were poorly thought-out, and changes to class balance were largely overcompensation. It's a good thing there's the free 30 day promotion to keep customers at the table. There is no way I would pay for a subscription to this game in its current state.

 

Similar problem for me. I do a lot of PvP but quite irregular hours or random times which means it's difficult for me be in regular organized pre-mades, just doesn't suit my life/hours. Me like a lot of casual (normal people I would call it) have little choice other than doing random PUG matches but as mentioned more and more you just end up fighting well geared pre-mades. Add that to ending up in pugs where half the team is running around in recruit gear.. well it's not a sport or fair game at all. BUT I know it's exactly the same on the other side, Imp's in pugs are experiencing the same thing.

 

It used to be much better because time-to-kill was longer, you had time to use a bit of tactics and didn't die straight away. Now it's become a very quick game where it's all about doing lots of damage in a short time which entirely favours melee classes in organized pre-mades with good gear.

[kieler]

my rank 60+ Sage is in sleep mode until this class is fixed

my sub is canceled they now have bout 60 days to fix it or its over for me

and yes it hurts like an old swg ppl i know good what it means to balance etc but what is done to the sage heal

compared to the other heal classes is a joke thanks bioware for destroying my class now back to the drawing board and make our classs playable again...

[seekeruno]

Learn to adapt or don't play MMO's, it is that simple.

what a nice answer when all your work just got thrown out the window by BIO.

[PreeMa]

Were you all breastfed until the age of 12 or what... It's an MMO these things happen, ALL. THE. TIME.

 

What you are doing isn't even constructive whining. Have any of you played an MMO before? A nerf was needed I think most of us can agree with that, maybe it was too much. All I know is that a good player will make the class work for them, if you cannot, maybe it's not all on Bioware.

[DirtyBirdie]

This is how solo queueing goes these days. On Ajunta Pall, nearly every warzone match has at least a 4-person imperial premade. About half end up with full 8-person premades.

 

It's not fair to pit pre-planned, coordinated, geared groups on voice chat against random groups with no standards for gear and no means to communicate besides ops chat. Yet all PvP rewards are now based solely on this system.

 

It's not fun anymore, even in full BM gear. I'm not in a big guild, and I don't play empire. I'm not going to reroll empire or join a 500-person guild just so that I can group up and pounce on pugs with the rest of the geared PvPers on the server.

 

PvP changes released with the 1.2 patch were poorly thought-out, and changes to class balance were largely overcompensation. It's a good thing there's the free 30 day promotion to keep customers at the table. There is no way I would pay for a subscription to this game in its current state.

 

This has to be the whiniest QQ ive heard in a forum for a LONG time so kutos buddy. I actually want to steal your lunch money now. You have the options available to you - get some friends and form a premade, join a better guild, get better gear, or continue whining about premades because they're not going away. PvP is a TEAM game, and TEAM games require TEAM coordination/communication, therefore you will almost always lose to a premade. Thats what makes PvP fun, not pugs. Smashing pugs is fun though. I honestly hope you just keep pugging along as it makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside decimating the randoms. Happy QQing. Back to sage talk plz.

[KamujinKravshera]

Mostly playing my Shadow and Scoundrel these days. No point in playing my sage, he's well geared, but not as fun as the others any more.

[DirtyBirdie]

Everyone talks about certain classes being the counter to other classes... Will somebody please remind me what class the dps sage counters?

[taishartrueblood]

other DPS sages?

[Kalderus]

I really don't know what the devs must be smoking if they think our damage (particularly burst damage) and heal quantities are "working as intended." I mean, we have the weakest armour in the game and the lowest hp of any class, save our mirror; therefore we should be doing the MOST damage and healing. It's just common sense after decades of rpgs, unless our lovely devs have never played any of these. It's still laughable that heavily armoured Guardians/Juggernaughts or Powertechs/Vanguards can actually do close to 2-3 times our output in burst damage.

 

I really hope a developer reads this, but considering the already lengthy discussions on the unnecessary sage nerfing already, I suppose this will just be considered another "QQ" and some marauder troll will reply saying "lrn 2 play newb-MMO's are like this, I'm a go kill more squishy newbs like you."

[DirtyBirdie]

other DPS sages?

^ This.

I really tried to stay optomistic post 1.2 and try out a variety of different builds, strategies, etc etc. Relics/force potency popped i still dont do dick damage to anybody in decent gear. I CONSTANTLY have to rely on LOSing everybody so i dont get destroyed... it feels like im playing hide and go seek more than i am starwars??? And if they are really determined its not hard for them to chase me down and kill me anyways. why is it that we now have to be twice as good as the other guy to not get completely pwnt? It seriously feels like there isnt a class in the game i have an advantage over. The worst part is im still putting up decent end game numbers (usually top 3 endgame dps) even though i cant focus kill someone for ****... so i doubt we will even get the buff we need due to the numbers game...

 

PvE im currently in half rakata half black hole, am using the 1/12/28 build, and im RELYING on PP to double dip to stay EVEN with other dps classes that are less geared (mostly troopers in mostly rakata some columi)... and the troopers that are effortlessly keeping up/beating my numbers, get heavy armor, (now) have better AOE and better burst...

[Cormacus]

^ This.

I really tried to stay optomistic post 1.2 and try out a variety of different builds, strategies, etc etc. Relics/force potency popped i still dont do dick damage to anybody in decent gear. I CONSTANTLY have to rely on LOSing everybody so i dont get destroyed... it feels like im playing hide and go seek more than i am starwars??? And if they are really determined its not hard for them to chase me down and kill me anyways. why is it that we now have to be twice as good as the other guy to not get completely pwnt? It seriously feels like there isnt a class in the game i have an advantage over. The worst part is im still putting up decent end game numbers (usually top 3 endgame dps) even though i cant focus kill someone for ****... so i doubt we will even get the buff we need due to the numbers game...

 

PvE im currently in half rakata half black hole, am using the 1/12/28 build, and im RELYING on PP to double dip to stay EVEN with other dps classes that are less geared (mostly troopers in mostly rakata some columi)... and the troopers that are effortlessly keeping up/beating my numbers, get heavy armor, (now) have better AOE and better burst...

 

It's not only you, I feel much the same. While I still enjoy playing my Sage, it's very clear that it's one of, if not the weakest class in PvP now. As you say, you have to be twice as good as your opponent to win which isn't fair. And as you know, just like yourself I've tried all kinds of specs and can't find any that has real burst which is utterly mad when we're a DPS class that dies very quickly.

 

This is also where Marauders/Sentinels argument falls apart when they say they are week and have to do a lot of damage.. they actually have it all - big damage numbers, utility AND survivability. Sages do have some very handy tools for getting away however majority of classes have tools to counter every single one we have. But more importantly as we all noticed, we have to make up some weird gimped hybrids to get the slightest burst.

[DirtyBirdie]

This is also where Marauders/Sentinels argument falls apart when they say they are week and have to do a lot of damage.. they actually have it all - big damage numbers, utility AND survivability. Sages do have some very handy tools for getting away however majority of classes have tools to counter every single one we have. But more importantly as we all noticed, we have to make up some weird gimped hybrids to get the slightest burst.

 

I would be careful there, sents/maras dont have any utility really... they have burst and survivability, those are different. They have no self heals, knockbacks/pulls, terrible AOE, almost 0 cc's and all of their defensive CD's are on long timers. But agreed, sages are definitely bottom of the pool for PvP and PvE when it comes to OPs DPS. Just read a post stating that post 1.2.2 Psychic project no longer double dips. If this is in fact true and BW didnt even mention it in patch notes, ill be furious and probably just bench my sage until they buff them up again. Cormacus, if anyone can confirm that double dipping is no longer occuring, you wont have any issues considering your spec/build. Only viable option left will be full balance. I've never seen such aggressive nerfs in any game ever. Its actually amazing how bad they made sages.

Edited May 3, 2012 by DirtyBirdie

[Rakarthalicious]

I loved PVP healing on my Sage. Since 1.2 I tried trying different tactics, specs, and healing styles. Ultimately none of them made me feel like I was still pulling my weight in a WZ.

My overall healing numbers are still decent, but my ability to stop people dying, even when I'm healing a 1-on-1 fight, seems much worse. Instead of being a fight that is now 2 vs 1, I feel I'm really just making it 1.3 vs 1 and that we would be better off if I was another DPS class. The rate that damage can be poured in to a target makes the amount of healing I can put in to them insignificant.

It used to be that a bad player could largely be dealt with while still healing others, a good player would shut down my outbound healing, and a great player would send me fleeing for safety, popping cooldowns. Now, any player can shut me down and send me fleeing. Even ones that use their abilities and CDs at the wrong times on the wrong abilities (of mine) will still mess with me enough for their brutal DPS to take me down. Against a good player I'm pretty much dead any time.

I tried WZs with my guild and using Teamspeak. Even with guard on and calling for help the moment someone's on me, I have seconds for them to intervene. Even when they are able to actually save me, is that what PVP has to be for me? Never PUG, always guarded, never 15metres from a tank? Instead of being a fully contributing player on the team I feel like a walking "Killing Blow medal" companion.

[Vales]

I must be doing something wrong then as TK specced with crap gear (13600 HP, 500 FP, 80 Surge Rating, ~350 Expertise) and still having fun with the class. Less with my faction though.

 

I would be careful there, sents/maras dont have any utility really... they have burst and survivability, those are different. They have no self heals, knockbacks/pulls, terrible AOE, almost 0 cc's and all of their defensive CD's are on long timers. But agreed, sages are definitely bottom of the pool for PvP and PvE when it comes to OPs DPS. Just read a post stating that post 1.2.2 Psychic project no longer double dips. If this is in fact true and BW didnt even mention it in patch notes, ill be furious and probably just bench my sage until they buff them up again. Cormacus, if anyone can confirm that double dipping is no longer occuring, you wont have any issues considering your spec/build. Only viable option left will be full balance. I've never seen such aggressive nerfs in any game ever. Its actually amazing how bad they made sages.

 

A class should be viable on it's own, not due to exploits.

 

I would be careful there, sents/maras dont have any utility really... they have burst and survivability, those are different. They have no self heals, knockbacks/pulls, terrible AOE, almost 0 cc's and all of their defensive CD's are on long timers. But agreed, sages are definitely bottom of the pool for PvP and PvE when it comes to OPs DPS. Just read a post stating that post 1.2.2 Psychic project no longer double dips. If this is in fact true and BW didnt even mention it in patch notes, ill be furious and probably just bench my sage until they buff them up again. Cormacus, if anyone can confirm that double dipping is no longer occuring, you wont have any issues considering your spec/build. Only viable option left will be full balance. I've never seen such aggressive nerfs in any game ever. Its actually amazing how bad they made sages.

 

Their group sprint is amazing utility even if it is on a 5 minute timer. They have a healing reduce which is amazing, plus dots, plus slow, plus an AoE mezz, with a certain spec two gap closers.

 

While Sorc might have more utility it is not like Sents/Maras are weak in that department.

 

The only change I wish for is that they upgrade our Saberstrikes enough that they actually hurt so our DPS doesn't drop too hard when we are forced into melee. Currently their damage is a sad joke and we are talking about freaking steel cutting like butter lightsabers here not toothpicks.

Edited May 7, 2012 by Vales

[Cormacus]

I must be doing something wrong then as TK specced with crap gear (13600 HP, 500 FP, 80 Surge Rating, ~350 Expertise) and still having fun with the class. Less with my faction though..

 

At lvl50 on a normal server like the one I am you wouldn't survive very long with 350 expertise. Either your on a server with low geared players on both sides or your on the stronger side on that server and your team carries you. You can often tell before a match starts if you will win, if there are too many players with below 14000hp on your side you lose. Sad but true. I run now with 4 pieces of War Hero at 1200 expertise and will chew through anyone with that kind of expertise as you have. On the other hand against someone on the same level it's a entirely different story.

 

But it's great that you're having fun, it kind of proves that expertise is just a messing up the game. Personally I've never liked expertise.