Seeing a lot of Pyro Powertech stacking lately…

[Boarg]

A lot of the groups I've been running into the last few days have been running more and more Pyro Powertechs. One particular premade had FOUR of them, and clearly by design.

 

It was also pretty obvious that they are even more effective in quantity than they are alone. 4 Rail Shots drop someone pretty much as soon as they get to a fight, and you can't lockdown and control all of them.

 

Anyone else running into this?

[Hethroin]

A lot of the groups I've been running into the last few days have been running more and more Pyro Powertechs. One particular premade had FOUR of them, and clearly by design.

 

It was also pretty obvious that they are even more effective in quantity than they are alone. 4 Rail Shots drop someone pretty much as soon as they get to a fight, and you can't lockdown and control all of them.

 

Anyone else running into this?

 

How fast would 4 ravages, 4 force lightning channels, 4 tracer missiles, or 4 ambushes kill a single target?

[Boarg]

How fast would 4 ravages, 4 force lightning channels, 4 tracer missiles, or 4 ambushes kill a single target?

 

Some of them, pretty fast if they can all get lined up on a target. I don't think I would try to directly compare Rail Shot with channeled and casted abilities, though. There's a lot more to why they seem to want to stack that spec than just hitting one target with a burst ability, though.

 

In general, they can consistently down targets very quickly. And that's not particularly special as several other specs have strong burst, but they seem to be able to do with with more position and setup flexibility than most. And they're more durable and easier to upkeep than most of the other burst specs other than Sentinels, probably.

[exphryl]

Your server has 4 Pyro Powertechs that actually are logged in at the same time?

 

Impressive in itself...

[Boarg]

Your server has 4 Pyro Powertechs that actually are logged in at the same time?

 

Impressive in itself...

 

Yeah, there was even a stretch where I matched up against a partial premade (2 PP's), a full premade (4 PP's), and another partial (2 PP's) all in a row....no two of the PP's the same. (That's a lot of PP's.....)

[Hokonoso]

How fast would 4 ravages, 4 force lightning channels, 4 tracer missiles, or 4 ambushes kill a single target?

 

ravages? 3 seconds, force ligntings? 6 seconds since they tick for 1k max and multiply that by 4 and you still will have to cast it twice, tracer derpers? 4.5 seconds on average assuming a decent crit rate and also counting the stacks stacking, 4 ambushes? now that would be 2 seconds since it takes that long to cast and 4 of them should kill someone..

 

the problem you are missing is that rail shot is instant and only requires 1 person to put up incendiary missile to make them vulnerable literally letting them down the first person instantly and the 2nd person after a rocket punch and the 3rd person after another rail shot assuming the rocket punches all crit...

 

so trying this later tonight!!!

[Hethroin]

The problem is that your incendiary shooter uses more heat, and Rail Shot reset is still RNG so 2 out of 4 of your pyros will not have it back immediatly when swapping on the second target. Also 4 rail shot doesn't always kill a PVP geared level 50. Sometimes they parry RS, and many times the ~45% crit rate on the ability allows it to somehow NOT crit doing 1.75k instead of 3.5k damage. Then there is the whole math problem: (3500 * 4 = 14000) even if all RS do hit and do crit that's still not a dead target. Personally I prefer a more diverse group of DPS sources in my group. Edited April 19, 2012 by Hethroin

[cupofwater]

Moar nerfs!

 

I said moar

[Boarg]

Well, it's not like you even need to outright gib someone instantaneously. One of the four can flameburst to get he requisite dot up if they are close...or grapple to get glose. Or someone can use TSO to get the IM out for free. Or if quarters are close (which is frequently the case fighting near objectives), everyone can get their CGC dot up.

 

Seeing it in action, it was surprising how quickly they could get to a target (usually just whoever is closest rather than being picky), down it in about 3 gcd's, get onto the next one hardly moving at all, killing it in another 3 gcd, get onto the next one....and by then they're just wiping up remaining forces.

 

Diverse groups of good dps players can do really well too, but usually not at such efficiency with there being more time involved with melee repositioning and spending gcd's re-setting up for another burst - and each one at somewhat different schedules because of working through different mechanics. And they have to reposition themselves more than being able to simply reposition the enemy in some cases.

[Terrorshard]

Pre patch no one says anything about vanguards/pt's.

 

They take a major nerf in patch and now the OP cries are coming. Crazy.

[Boarg]

Pre patch no one says anything about vanguards/pt's.

 

They take a major nerf in patch and now the OP cries are coming. Crazy.

 

Since we're talking Pyro, I imagine you're speaking of the PPA change.

 

As much as people whined about the ICD, it wasn't really such a bad thing. The new proc rate made it so that the proc was very predictable and reliable - almost like being on a timer, for a Pyro player. Consistency beats RNG lottery for the most part. It was almost just like what had already happened to Assassin players with Raze...net benefit for people actually playing the tree, but it killed lots of hybrid possibilities.

 

I also didn't see anywhere in this thread where anyone said they were OP or called for nerfs. Just talking about people stacking them and how effective that is or isn't. And I saw plenty of posts about them before patch, too - justified or not.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Boarg

[EclipseWraith]

Pyro Powertechs are broken in terms of single target burst damage. Why bring a warrior that needs to build up to do damage when you can bring a Powertech.

[SneiK]

Since we're talking Pyro, I imagine you're speaking of the PPA change.

 

As much as people whined about the ICD, it wasn't really such a bad thing. The new proc rate made it so that the proc was very predictable and reliable - almost like being on a timer, for a Pyro player. Consistency beats RNG lottery for the most part. It was almost just like what had already happened to Assassin players with Raze...net benefit for people actually playing the tree, but it killed lots of hybrid possibilities.

 

I also didn't see anywhere in this thread where anyone said they were OP or called for nerfs. Just talking about people stacking them and how effective that is or isn't. And I saw plenty of posts about them before patch, too - justified or not.

 

I don't see 4 Pyros being effective at all in any of the warzones. A pyro against a well organized team needs a tank and a healer specifically protecting one pyro. 4 pyros and you end up with glass cannons that shatter fast. 2 is an absolute max you want if you even want 'em.

 

And this is why you bring a warrior FYI above. Marauders will never get spiked down when they play smart with their CDs. A pyro has no defensives whatsoever to protect them from something like that. The pyro is just gone.

Edited April 19, 2012 by SneiK

[roggles]

Pre patch no one says anything about vanguards/pt's.

 

They take a major nerf in patch and now the OP cries are coming. Crazy.

 

LMAO ... right!

[Elkirin]

Theorycrafting is ok but with matched warzones to be implemented it would be a good idea for PvP Guilds to try out a few combinations now. That is likely what you are seeing .

 

In the mean time , forum posters could try to promote PvP participation instead of actively working to reduce numbers willing to queue.

[Selai]

Pyro Powertechs are broken in terms of single target burst damage. Why bring a warrior that needs to build up to do damage when you can bring a Powertech.

 

Because 1 warrior > 1 pyrotech assuming equivalent gear and cc useage.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Selai

[Gigabolt]

Pyro Powertechs are broken in terms of single target burst damage. Why bring a warrior that needs to build up to do damage when you can bring a Powertech.

 

well warriors have far superior mobility compared to pyro specced pt's. Also pt's have only a single (and not particularly great) defensive cd. Otherwise they have heavy armour so in fact are pretty squishy and importantly they have no way to escape a losing a battle. All the can do is aoe stun and hope they take someone down with them.

 

The most important thing when calling any class over/underpowered is that you have personal experience playing a class.

 

I feel that when you play against classes you notice their strengths more and when playing them yourself you notice their weaknesses more.

[me_unknown]

How fast would 4 ravages, 4 force lightning channels, 4 tracer missiles, or 4 ambushes kill a single target?

 

4 force lightning channels? you know that they are ding the half of damage than all the other abilities you mention (especially due to mitigation)

[cashogy]

PPA is still on a RNG lottery, dont kid yourself. bioware upped the chances of winning the lottery, but its still very possible to win; the proc is by no means a gaurantee.

 

i think what we are experiencing here is that the average player perceived the pyrotech nerf in 1.2 to be much more significant than it panned out to be. i have not noticed a reduction in spike dps output or heat management. it could be that some players now expect pyrotech to perform poorly, and when they see them do well they assume something is still overpowered and it must be nerfed.

[aRtFuL]

Pyro PT/Assault Van has always been decent class to play in pvp.

 

It just wasn't popular because Sorcs/Op/Mercs was drowning out every other class. Now that Sorcs are softer people starts to look at less popular classes like PT/Sniper - classes that really is all in or nothing and has none of those "Oh ****, I need to get out of here" button.

[Jetflair]

I don't see 4 Pyros being effective at all in any of the warzones. A pyro against a well organized team needs a tank and a healer specifically protecting one pyro. 4 pyros and you end up with glass cannons that shatter fast. 2 is an absolute max you want if you even want 'em.

 

And this is why you bring a warrior FYI above. Marauders will never get spiked down when they play smart with their CDs. A pyro has no defensives whatsoever to protect them from something like that. The pyro is just gone.

 

You move a lot and use CC. Thats the protection. Yes you die faster than other trees but its not as bad glass cannon as you descripe since burst is really good. Tanking classes that pull and jump are main concern because they get to skin and they are hard to shake off.

 

All other you can run circles with and spam all you got.

[Boarg]

PPA is still on a RNG lottery, dont kid yourself. bioware upped the chances of winning the lottery, but its still very possible to win; the proc is by no means a gaurantee.

 

i think what we are experiencing here is that the average player perceived the pyrotech nerf in 1.2 to be much more significant than it panned out to be. i have not noticed a reduction in spike dps output or heat management. it could be that some players now expect pyrotech to perform poorly, and when they see them do well they assume something is still overpowered and it must be nerfed.

 

Yeah, there's still RNG in it, but it's a whole lot more predictable than it was before.

 

Before, you couldn't plan for it hardly at all…sometimes you'd get a bunch of procs back to back, and other times you'd hit dry spells and be terribly ineffective.

 

Now, if you start combat, it's off CD and you can pretty regularly do this:

 

(TSO) IM -> Rail -> RP/FB (for proc) -> Rail …and get two Rails close together. And generally get another every 8-9 seconds thereafter. You can also save consuming the proc until close to the 6s ICD ending and get another right after and consume it quickly to put two close together again. The new version allows for more skill and planning while before it was purely just crossing your fingers and reacting to RNG.

 

 

I don't see 4 Pyros being effective at all in any of the warzones. A pyro against a well organized team needs a tank and a healer specifically protecting one pyro. 4 pyros and you end up with glass cannons that shatter fast. 2 is an absolute max you want if you even want 'em.

 

And this is why you bring a warrior FYI above. Marauders will never get spiked down when they play smart with their CDs. A pyro has no defensives whatsoever to protect them from something like that. The pyro is just gone.

 

This is mischaracterized quite a bit…

 

To start with, pretty much every burst spec in game have a lot of people that consider themselves "glass cannons" except for Marauders - and even Marauders say they are too when their cooldowns are gone, because of only having medium armor and being forced to operate in melee and aoe zones.

 

Heavy armor offers better passive mitigation than pretty much all of the legit burst specs. And being able to operate largely from range (at the very least with a lot of range flexibility) benefits their overall survivability in a huge way compared to the melee burst specs. Their defensive cooldowns, Energy Shield and Kolto Overload, are actually pretty good compared to most other burst specs except for Marauders. For example, they are much better than a dps Assassin's defensive cooldowns, the primary of which only affects white damage only and the other only lasts 3 seconds…and they wear light armor and have to operate in melee.

 

The truth is, PPT's are arguably the second most survivable and upkeepable burst dps spec in the game, right behind Marauders.

 

Saying that they need a tank and a healer dedicated to supporting them to be effective is completely false. Yes, support helps their individual performance, but the same is true for everyone else, too. They don't need it anymore than any other burst spec does, and arguably less than several others. If a team brought a healer and tank to pocket support every dps they brought, the team would be horrible because there wouldn't be enough room for dps slots. That team I mentioned with 4 Pyros…the other four spots were 2 more burst dps and 2 healers - no tanks. Those two healers supported each other and all those dps more than adequately because their 6 burst dps killed everyone so fast that they didn't need anything more. Those multiple PPT's could also help protect each other with grapples, snares, and CC.

 

 

Now to be clear, all this is not to say the PT's are OP or need a nerf. I'm just saying they can indeed be stacked effectively when using strats that make it work.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Boarg

[Xsorus]

The truth is, PPT's are arguably the second most survivable and upkeepable burst dps spec in the game, right behind Marauders.

-----

 

ehh no..

 

You keep bringing up heavy armor, which ignoring the fact it's completely bloody useless against a lot of attacks, it's also not a huge upgrade over medium armor

I have bloody 25% damage reduction in medium armor, My Pyro has 30% damage reduction in Heavy Armor..

Heavy armor in this game isn't what makes you a tank..It's heavy armor + whatever Tank Stance you have that actually makes Heavy armor good.

[Boarg]

ehh no..

 

You keep bringing up heavy armor, which ignoring the fact it's completely bloody useless against a lot of attacks, it's also not a huge upgrade over medium armor

I have bloody 25% damage reduction in medium armor, My Pyro has 30% damage reduction in Heavy Armor..

Heavy armor in this game isn't what makes you a tank..It's heavy armor + whatever Tank Stance you have that actually makes Heavy armor good.

 

I brought it up once... And I'm fully aware of how much damage reduction it gives. On a whole, roughly 80% of the damage flying around in PvP is kinetic and energy damage types that are mitigated by armor. Pyros themselves are one of the few specs that have their overall damage affected little by armor, which is one of their advantages. Armor is a big deal in PvP. People complain about how survivable Tank Assassins in dps gear are in PvP all the time, and their primary survivability is their tank armor (shields do very little in PvP, they have dps HP pools, and are still light on PvP useful defensive CD's)...and you yourself bring up tank stances making heavy armor "good"...it wouldn't be good if it didn't do anything. You can't have it both ways.

 

Going from 25% armor reduction to 30% armor reduction may not sound like much, but it 's actually a 7.7% decrease in damage taken going from 25 to 30. (Imagine going from 99% reduction to 100% and you can visualize what's going on here.) 7.7% is a very noticable.

 

Regardless, overall survivability is a big picture thing...it's not just armor. For a Pyro PT, range and position flexibility is the biggest component in that. And there's also passive mitigation, defensive cooldowns, CC, snares, grapple, knockback, etc...it all fits together. As that overall package, they probably are the second most survivable among burst specs, and if not second, better than average.

[Silwyth]

I brought it up once... And I'm fully aware of how much damage reduction it gives. On a whole, roughly 80% of the damage flying around in PvP is kinetic and energy damage types that are mitigated by armor. Pyros themselves are one of the few specs that have their overall damage affected little by armor, which is one of their advantages. Armor is a big deal in PvP. People complain about how survivable Tank Assassins in dps gear are in PvP all the time, and their primary survivability is their tank armor (shields do very little in PvP, they have dps HP pools, and are still light on PvP useful defensive CD's)...and you yourself bring up tank stances making heavy armor "good"...it wouldn't be good if it didn't do anything. You can't have it both ways.

 

Going from 25% armor reduction to 30% armor reduction may not sound like much, but it 's actually a 7.7% decrease in damage taken going from 25 to 30. (Imagine going from 99% reduction to 100% and you can visualize what's going on here.) 7.7% is a very noticable.

 

Regardless, overall survivability is a big picture thing...it's not just armor. For a Pyro PT, range and position flexibility is the biggest component in that. And there's also passive mitigation, defensive cooldowns, CC, snares, grapple, knockback, etc...it all fits together. As that overall package, they probably are the second most survivable among burst specs, and if not second, better than average.

 

Kolto Overload healing is marginal at best. Powertech cc consists of the stun the almost all classes get and a 2.5 sec stun that you have to be in melee range to use. Also, what knockback?