1.2.0c Ninja Arsenal Nerf?

[Hutt]

I was arsenal since launch and respec'd pyro after this nerf due to being told it was working as it should. Pyro is way better pve & pvp after this change. Something has to be broken, the dmg difference between pyro and arsenal are vast right now. I'm not worried about interupts due to us mainly being artillery and straight dps.... But even with pyro I don't feel like artillery, I feel like a wounded puppy in the middle of war. After getting used to the change with arsenal it was bad, but if I was attacked... It was a quick death. There is no burning anyone down anymore and that was our best defense was offense. Now no dice. I've been rolling my jug now and I'm liking him way better than my BH who has been my main.

[Aquatine]

You are all basing your assumptions that HSM is not getting benefits from heat sigs just because its not hitting as hard as it used to. But thats wrong, if you shoot the dummy without any heat sigs, then apply them, then shoot it again, you will see a 25% increase so it IS getting buffed by our own heat sigs. They just "fixed" a bug that was buffing it some other way and killed its damage output.

[Aristarco]

Here comes another....

Heat signatures are supposed to make vulnerable a target by an armor reduction of 4% each, so it's also supposed that if you spam tracer missile, from the first to the last putting your 5 signatures on the target, your dps will increase from the 1 to the 3 by a small amount making the last have a bonus given by an overall armor reduction of 20%.

This is not happening.

I'm gonna check what you're sayng about the heatseeker right now, because yesterday it works only if another mercenary put the stak on your target, i'll post asap.

[Xadua]

Well,I think main problem was that we expect HSM to hit for bigger numbers then it was pre 1.2 as it was supposed to be buffed in current patch which got us all expecting and excited perhaps.

 

If there really was 'ninja' bug on HSM (not talking just about taking other BH stacks) which was fixed together with the (above mentioned) stacking bug then I would like it to be officially stamped with answers from BW team confirming current intended dmg of ability and how exactly it is affected by our stacks and or other possible debuffs on target.

(like reduced armor etc.)

 

Provide some examples or some math to explain the formula behind HSM to set everyone at ease.(mainly answers to some numbers not in line with 25% increase in HSM from 5 stacks which some people report,and if the training dummy most parse on acts as intended as well which could be crucial)

 

If the outcome is that HSM is now working correctly and as intended and officially making it 'weaker' at least we will all know it's not bugged just perhaps from our view under-tuned and we could push our discussion into whether our class as whole is on par or sub-par compared to other dps classes.

Edited April 22, 2012 by Xadua

[Aristarco]

A) Test:

 

1st HEATSEEKER MISSILE hit without any heat signature on target : 1616 normal

2nd HEATSEEKER MISSILE with 5 stack of heatsignature on target: 2064 normal

 

25% is exactly 404 dmg seems fair.

 

B) Test:

 

1st TRACER MISSILE on dummy: 1279 (no heat signatures)

2nd TRACER MISSILE on dummy: 1295 (2 heat signature = 8% armor reduced)

3rd TRACER MISSILE on dummy: 1272 (5 heat signature =20% armor reduced)

 

C) Test:

 

1st RAIL SHOT (it's an average of 5 hit all with just 2 stack of heat signatures): 1438

2nd RAIL SHOT (it's an average of 5 hit all with just 4 stack of heat signatures): 1474.6

3rd RAIL SHOT (it's an average of 5 hit all with 5 stack of heat signatures): 1519

 

Now follow me, the rail shot benefits of of the 10.5% from the heat signature i have to do more test to see if in a large numcer of shots it is really the 20% of the armor reduction but for this issue i just need to confirm that something works on that, TRACER MISSILE DO NOT BENEFIT AT ALL.

 

I understand the decrease of the damage of the mercenary, it was op, Bioware.

But you've done a mess, now it's unplayable, almost the arsenal build because all the other classes, at the same gear can do better also missing rotation.

 

We have done some paragon.

 

3 characters, sorcerer dps, full rakata gear, on the operation dummy full buffed without willpower stim, without using adrenals or relics, normal rotation on single target monitored with moxparsec to see the dps in a 5 minutes fight, an Assassin dps, full rakata geared exept for the head, no stim, full buffed same contition as above, a mercenary, full rakata geared exept for mainhand battlemaster weapon, with stim rakata aim, 1988 (just to understand all was at the close up gearing).

This are the results:

 

1st Sorcerer 1630 dps

2nd Assassin 1458 dps

3rd Mercenary 1129 dps

 

And let's discuss also about warzone, check now you can the dps of the better skilled/geared mercenaries all around the servers (arsenal build) if you can find some, because i think 90% quit, and look at theyr dps.

 

Today i tested mine, full battlemaster geared, got the 15% expertise boost in alderaan civil war, targeted a friend with 309 expertize i found against me, done 3 tracer so i put on him 5 heat signatures, i've used relic power battlemaster, means 380 power, rakata adrenal, means other 475 power for a total of 855 power increased, shoot an Heatseeker, critted for 3823 dmg.

So considering that i need 1,5 sec each tracer (interruptable) and i need 3 to use my best dps ability, i can eventually score a 6/7k (if i'm lucky) in 7 second without being interrupted, charged, stunned, also hit because i loose casting time.

Now think it with a marauder, operative, juggernaut, powerteck, on you.

Kiting is impossible due to stun, charge, grips.

 

Now, being polite as you requested in your friendly warning, this are the reasons why i've unsubbed my subscription, first of all because bioware in the person of developers, choose to listen to the newbies, who whine because they thougt tracer spam was too easy, without considering that you have tought and made the arsenal mercenary like this, a greet bost of dps, a low survivability, kill or get killed that was the way, now it become enter in a warzone to be camped.

 

Last thing, today i've made an huttball, i found against me a mercenary full battlemaster geared, i was playng with my juggernaut, half champion, half battlemaster tank geared and with immortal (tank) build, while others were fighting away from us i get the ball near to the middle, i got focused for all the way to score, i get the point and watched my life, without using one cd, just ignoring him, i lost 30% of my total healt.

 

Have a nice day.

[JustTray]

Edit - tracer missle debuff does not apply to self.

 

Tested and confirmed

Edited April 22, 2012 by JustTray

[JustTray]

I can also confirm that tracer missle is no longer gaining the benefit from the armor debuffs it provides. This is another thing that is EASY to test.

 

I am non buffed. Every hit is hitting for 1340, non crit. The first one, the second, and the third. With 2 stacks of 4-5% armor being reduced each time, I expect this value to steeply increase each time.

 

Why do I have to spend 5 minutes to test this to prove this is BS? Where the f is your Dev team? Where is your change control? Why don't you test ANYTHING before it goes live?

[Hutt]

Not to beat your tests up, but probably ought to do them naked without armor and stating in addition to not using adrenals, stims, and/ or holocrons. Only reason I say that is because I beloved the inquisitor armor has some nice positives where BH armor seems stated to try to not let us run hog wild on stuff as well. I'm assuming that's the basic idea we are suffering through, because before it wasn't unheard of of hitting someone in pvp for 10k which is just nasty. Right after 1.2. I would hip fire or shoot HSM whenever it became available, just because it wad a total hammer. I would hip it 5k+ on a crit which is is definitely out of balance.

 

The armor ignore buff just didn't seem to work, its gotta be something in the stack or dmg limitation. If this is 25%...probably should be changed to 30 for some? improvement. Merc had to be feared by their dmg, and arsenal just doesnt have it. Being pyro now, I definitely think I can burn down every arsenal I come across, geared or not with my mix of champ/ BM/ & Rakata.

Edited April 22, 2012 by Hutt

[Gyronamics]

I can confirm this too. I am getting hits BELOW the minimum on the tooltip even with a 25% damage bonus from 5 heat signatures. there is no way this can be explained other than they broke something.

 

Or you're yet another player who doesn't understand the mechanics.

 

Kinetic and Energy damage is weakened by defence.

 

As a Merc you know you have about 30% damage reduction unless you go insane and stack def mods.

 

Enemies also have this.

 

You don't hit what it says on the tooltip because no enemy has zero armour.

 

Oh you can reduce the armour a bit but whatever is left still reduces your damage.

 

HSM does kinetic damage, so that gets reduced when it hits the damage reducing armour of a target.

 

 

You are doing less damage now because of two "nerfs" or "bugfixes".

 

1) HSM no longer counts other players stacks and buffs to increase its damage

 

2) Your own stacks of Heat Signatures no longer gets counted twice.

 

What that adds up to is a massive decrease in damage from HSM and no more 10k crits in a party of mercs.

 

And there you have it, you do as much damage as a pyro merc now. Which is apparently the dps the devs want a 24/7 ranged class to do.

Edited April 22, 2012 by Gyronamics

[Aristarco]

Looks like merc from yosemite sam become be beep

[Aristarco]

Or you're yet another player who doesn't understand the mechanics.

 

Kinetic and Energy damage is weakened by defence.

 

As a Merc you know you have about 30% damage reduction unless you go insane and stack def mods.

 

Enemies also have this.

 

You don't hit what it says on the tooltip because no enemy has zero armour.

 

Oh you can reduce the armour a bit but whatever is left still reduces your damage.

 

HSM does kinetic damage, so that gets reduced when it hits the damage reducing armour of a target.

 

 

You are doing less damage now because of two "nerfs" or "bugfixes".

 

1) HSM no longer counts other players stacks and buffs to increase its damage

 

2) Your own stacks of Heat Signatures no longer gets counted twice.

 

What that adds up to is a massive decrease in damage from HSM and no more 10k crits in a party of mercs.

 

And there you have it, you do as much damage as a pyro merc now. Which is apparently the dps the devs want a 24/7 ranged class to do.

 

After this prolly explanation, prove me that pyro makes the same dps as arsenal in 5 minutes dummy fight, my data's aren't according to that.

And there's no way in arsenal build to make the 5k dps medal in a warzone.

[The_Duck]

Or you're yet another player who doesn't understand the mechanics.

Kinetic and Energy damage is weakened by defence.

As a Merc you know you have about 30% damage reduction unless you go insane and stack def mods.

Enemies also have this.

You don't hit what it says on the tooltip because no enemy has zero armour.

Oh you can reduce the armour a bit but whatever is left still reduces your damage.

HSM does kinetic damage, so that gets reduced when it hits the damage reducing armour of a target.

You are doing less damage now because of two "nerfs" or "bugfixes".

1) HSM no longer counts other players stacks and buffs to increase its damage

2) Your own stacks of Heat Signatures no longer gets counted twice.

What that adds up to is a massive decrease in damage from HSM and no more 10k crits in a party of mercs.

 

And there you have it, you do as much damage as a pyro merc now. Which is apparently the dps the devs want a 24/7 ranged class to do.

 

I have 35% armor penetration ability.

5 Heat Signatures = -20% armor rating reduction.

5 Heat Signatures = +25% DAMAGE

1.2 = +10% damage for heat seekers

 

1.2c = doing less than minimum damage when I have DEBUFFED the target AND have 35% armor penetration

 

this makes NO SENSE still after your wonderful explanation.

Your explanation basically states that the armor (and DR) of a NORMAL HARD mob is superior to my armor penetration and armor debuff AND +25% damage AND a supposed +10% buff to HSM.

 

dood, that is crazy talk. it is a fine explanation but no way a normal hard mob has this type of DR.

Plus, please explain how the normal training dummy has this type of armor and this still occurs there too.

hwo is that explaining a drop of over 23% damage for the ability (assuming my lowest possible damage and numbers)

Edited April 22, 2012 by The_Duck

[Gyronamics]

After this prolly explanation, prove me that pyro makes the same dps as arsenal in 5 minutes dummy fight, my data's aren't according to that.

And there's no way in arsenal build to make the 5k dps medal in a warzone.

 

I'm not sure what you're saying here but what numbers do your data show?

 

I've seen similar for post-nerf gunnery and assault.

[witchdoctaah]

I love when there is a known issue here, but people come on flaming others with ridiculous info.

 

When you played a class/build for 6 months, you have the DPS output engraved into your head. After the patch, it only took a few WZ's to see the poor output from TM + HSM.

 

TM - broken

HSM - Nerfed to LOL state

Survivability - LOL

Bounty hunter overall Merc to PT is crazy unbalanced. PT's doing 500k dmg, harder to take down, more utility while a Merc does 250-300 is insane.

Edited April 22, 2012 by witchdoctaah

[Poe_]

At this point, my same post from this afternoon still stands ...

 

Unread Today , 02:27 PM | #2

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So here we are, talking about it like you asked. You're obviously reading. Where are you?

[theunwarshed]

Or you're yet another player who doesn't understand the mechanics.

 

Kinetic and Energy damage is weakened by defence.

 

As a Merc you know you have about 30% damage reduction unless you go insane and stack def mods.

 

Enemies also have this.

 

You don't hit what it says on the tooltip because no enemy has zero armour.

 

Oh you can reduce the armour a bit but whatever is left still reduces your damage.

 

HSM does kinetic damage, so that gets reduced when it hits the damage reducing armour of a target.

 

 

You are doing less damage now because of two "nerfs" or "bugfixes".

 

1) HSM no longer counts other players stacks and buffs to increase its damage

 

2) Your own stacks of Heat Signatures no longer gets counted twice.

 

What that adds up to is a massive decrease in damage from HSM and no more 10k crits in a party of mercs.

 

And there you have it, you do as much damage as a pyro merc now. Which is apparently the dps the devs want a 24/7 ranged class to do.

 

you realize the training dummies have no defenses (per GZ's recent post), correct?

 

i'm consistently seeing hits under the tooltip minimum while wearing a mixture of mostly Columi/some Rakata armor and using the BH/SW buff, no stim/adrenal and a +300 power relic. the tooltip minimum should be achievable naked/no buffs. there is a well-documented problem whether or not you want to believe it.

Edited April 23, 2012 by theunwarshed

[Aristarco]

Bah ppl talk about testing the dps naked, but probably they do not consider that if you do an operation you and your comrates are geared up and solid, and it's that dps that count to achieve victory, so please almost stop talking nonsense.

[Gyronamics]

you realize the training dummies have no defenses (per GZ's recent post), correct?

 

Their defence is bugged yes. Atm only a very few attacks seem able to miss. That's the only thing they are not doing properly.

 

However their ARMOUR or damage reduction is totally there.

 

You can prove it on your own to satisfy yourself because two things would not happen if they didn't have any armour/damage reduction.

 

1) Tracer Missile/HVGC would not increase damage of any attack by reducing/penetrating armour

 

2) You'd hit the same values on both types of level 50 dummy. One has more armour.

 

Armour/damage reduction on everything is why kinetic and energy NEVER hits what it says on the tooltip.

 

Stacking debuffs and buffs is not the same thing as hitting tooltip damage normally either.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Gyronamics

[theunwarshed]

Bah ppl talk about testing the dps naked, but probably they do not consider that if you do an operation you and your comrates are geared up and solid, and it's that dps that count to achieve victory, so please almost stop talking nonsense.

 

i get the felling this is over your head, but the tooltip range of damage for any given ability can't possibly take into account the variable armor/buffs/adrenals/stims that can possibly be used by a player (not to mention groups of players). that's why the tooltip range is just a base-hence why you should be able to pull those numbers naked at level 50. get it?

[theunwarshed]

Their defence is bugged yes. Atm only a very few attacks seem able to miss. That's the only thing they are not doing properly.

 

However their ARMOUR or damage reduction is totally there.

 

You can prove it on your own to satisfy yourself because two things would not happen if they didn't have any armour/damage reduction.

 

1) Tracer Missile/HVGC would not increase damage of any attack by reducing/penetrating armour

 

2) You'd hit the same values on both types of level 50 dummy. One has more armour.

 

Armour/damage reduction on everything is why kinetic and energy NEVER hits what it says on the tooltip.

 

Stacking debuffs and buffs is not the same thing as hitting tooltip damage normally either.

 

my bad, i thought the quote was from GZ it was APeckinpaugh and it was about dodge and deflect not armor reduction, so i misread it.

 

at any rate, with my gearing i'm at 28% damage reduction. do you believe the Champ Ops Dummy has greater DR? with a 5-stack TM debuff (-20% armor)+ HVGC (-35%) it shouldn't leave much left for damage reduction. taken in conjunction with the HSM damage buffs from talents (+25%) and the SW buff (+5%), my bonus damage for tech attacks (which is what HSM and TM are) is 692 w/o the +300 power relic. i would expect to see a net increase over the min-max HSM range of damage in the tooltip.

Edited April 23, 2012 by theunwarshed

[Aristarco]

Got it, but my test was merely an observation of the nerf we had.

No mean about whining on how dps geared are you. if you look up a bit you'll find a post with explanation of what works and what not tested on a dummy for about 2 hours of shooting at it.

I'm just whining because now we got water guns against lightsaber, are we supposed to short circuit them?

Today i forced again myself to play my merc in wz, and after i see a tracer hit 360 dmg, an a crit of HSM 2900 dmg whith relic and adrenal i quit, and started again to play my tank jugg bm geared.

It's so frustrating..........

[Droyan]

Please Bioware react before it's too late.

 

I could understand a nerf for equilibrate damage but here, there is so at least 2 bugs on main skill (tracer missile and heatseeker missile) that provide us a lot of less damage as intended !

 

Sorry for my bad english, it's my first and perhaps last post on this english forum.

[MrSIlverSurfing]

Please Bioware react before it's too late.

 

I could understand a nerf for equilibrate damage but here, there is so at least 2 bugs on main skill (tracer missile and heatseeker missile) that provide us a lot of less damage as intended !

 

Sorry for my bad english, it's my first and perhaps last post on this english forum.

 

I just posted a thread on this. Something is wrong and it doesn't appear to happen all the time. Once in a while it appears to be working as intended.

[JustTray]

Tracer debuff is still not calculating for ANY of the players skills. This is why HSM is hitting so low and why tracer damage doesn't go up in subsequent hits as it should by mitigating more and more armor

[albynomonk]

A) Test:

 

1st HEATSEEKER MISSILE hit without any heat signature on target : 1616 normal

2nd HEATSEEKER MISSILE with 5 stack of heatsignature on target: 2064 normal

 

25% is exactly 404 dmg seems fair.

 

B) Test:

 

1st TRACER MISSILE on dummy: 1279 (no heat signatures)

2nd TRACER MISSILE on dummy: 1295 (2 heat signature = 8% armor reduced)

3rd TRACER MISSILE on dummy: 1272 (5 heat signature =20% armor reduced)

 

C) Test:

 

1st RAIL SHOT (it's an average of 5 hit all with just 2 stack of heat signatures): 1438

2nd RAIL SHOT (it's an average of 5 hit all with just 4 stack of heat signatures): 1474.6

3rd RAIL SHOT (it's an average of 5 hit all with 5 stack of heat signatures): 1519

 

Now follow me, the rail shot benefits of of the 10.5% from the heat signature i have to do more test to see if in a large numcer of shots it is really the 20% of the armor reduction but for this issue i just need to confirm that something works on that, TRACER MISSILE DO NOT BENEFIT AT ALL.

 

I understand the decrease of the damage of the mercenary, it was op, Bioware.

But you've done a mess, now it's unplayable, almost the arsenal build because all the other classes, at the same gear can do better also missing rotation.

 

We have done some paragon.

 

3 characters, sorcerer dps, full rakata gear, on the operation dummy full buffed without willpower stim, without using adrenals or relics, normal rotation on single target monitored with moxparsec to see the dps in a 5 minutes fight, an Assassin dps, full rakata geared exept for the head, no stim, full buffed same contition as above, a mercenary, full rakata geared exept for mainhand battlemaster weapon, with stim rakata aim, 1988 (just to understand all was at the close up gearing).

This are the results:

 

1st Sorcerer 1630 dps

2nd Assassin 1458 dps

3rd Mercenary 1129 dps

 

And let's discuss also about warzone, check now you can the dps of the better skilled/geared mercenaries all around the servers (arsenal build) if you can find some, because i think 90% quit, and look at theyr dps.

 

Today i tested mine, full battlemaster geared, got the 15% expertise boost in alderaan civil war, targeted a friend with 309 expertize i found against me, done 3 tracer so i put on him 5 heat signatures, i've used relic power battlemaster, means 380 power, rakata adrenal, means other 475 power for a total of 855 power increased, shoot an Heatseeker, critted for 3823 dmg.

So considering that i need 1,5 sec each tracer (interruptable) and i need 3 to use my best dps ability, i can eventually score a 6/7k (if i'm lucky) in 7 second without being interrupted, charged, stunned, also hit because i loose casting time.

Now think it with a marauder, operative, juggernaut, powerteck, on you.

Kiting is impossible due to stun, charge, grips.

 

Now, being polite as you requested in your friendly warning, this are the reasons why i've unsubbed my subscription, first of all because bioware in the person of developers, choose to listen to the newbies, who whine because they thougt tracer spam was too easy, without considering that you have tought and made the arsenal mercenary like this, a greet bost of dps, a low survivability, kill or get killed that was the way, now it become enter in a warzone to be camped.

 

Last thing, today i've made an huttball, i found against me a mercenary full battlemaster geared, i was playng with my juggernaut, half champion, half battlemaster tank geared and with immortal (tank) build, while others were fighting away from us i get the ball near to the middle, i got focused for all the way to score, i get the point and watched my life, without using one cd, just ignoring him, i lost 30% of my total healt.

 

Have a nice day.

 

All devs and mods are officialy pwned with this post.