Why are we still in the "Kill 10 rats" era of MMOs?

[V-Serp]

MMOs have to have a carrot on a stick design philosophy in order to justify their cost and make money from subscribers. So there is always a competing consideration of how to best make money by making things take long, and to at the same time provide enjoyment to players.

 

Some players really enjoy the MMO quest system.

 

I personally don't enjoy it, and none of my friends do either. A few tried them out but currently none of my friends play any MMOs. I could probably get them to play swtor, but then I also probably lose all my credibility and respect after they find out it's just a mediocre MMO at best.

 

The only thing I can get in an MMO that I can't get better in a single player RPG is the online multiplayer/massive world aspect. For me that is primarily in the PVP arena. MMOs do a great job of creating a world and giving you ways to interact with and talk to other people, if only by providing essentially a chat room and some warzones to play in.

 

There are other multiplayer games out there that you can play, but none of them give you things to do while waiting for other people to play a game with. In an MMO you are in the world as soon as you log in. In other games, such as say strategy games, RTS or FPS, you're really only in the game when there are enough players to play with, and then you only interact with them during the match, you are not in the game world at any other time just to talk or anything else.

 

But I'm beginning to think most of the MMO player base isn't really worth interacting with, so I don't know how much it matters.

[Elhanan]

My first MMO, but I do generally detest 'Rat Killing' in RPG's. That said, the majority of the times seen in TOR have been optional Bonus quests once in the area.. As long as it remains optional, and is not the Mission, I am fine with it.

 

My 50th started skipping almost all of these as a celebration; silver lining and all that!

[Oddzball]

 

 

And you have probably never had to code them. Coming up with awesome ideas is easy. Paying for them and coding them is hard part.

 

Not MMOs but i can and DO deal with huge database/server farms for applications in the business world. SO yes, I could, if I had the money.

 

Maybe a kickstarter...

 

Nah, lemme tell ya the truth. The game industry doesn't pay enough.

 

SWTOR cost you 15 bucks a month.

 

The software my company designs and sells costs 15k a year. (Over 1k a month) Per user.

 

Funny thing was, back when I went to college I wanted to make games, and I sold out to a science research company to make business software instead.

 

Yeah that makes me a little sad.

[hattertea]

Would you kindly, kill a horde of rats in the lower levels.

[Fatespuppet]

Defend convoy X (Riding on the convoy to pick off attackers)

Solve a logic puzzle put in front of you by a mad AI.

Navigate a maze and avoid traps.

Stealth mission to avoid detection (By Line of Sight, not in-game WoW-like steath system).

Assisination (see above stealth mission). Bonus is to get the target WITHOUT killing anyone else.

Tests of patience.

 

There's a few more they could choose from. A few of them CAN be boiled down to your three, but they have significant alterations to them to make them more interesting.

 

All of these exist in game right now, but people don't see them. They just see grind regardless of your flavor text.

 

Logic puzzle on Belsavis whose purpose is to Defeat X spaceship

Navigate the forcefield and flame trap maze in Colicoid FP to Defeat X giant robot at the end

Stealth mission in Black Hole area of Corellia to Deliver X stealth devices without alerting security

[Oddzball]

All of these exist in game right now, but people don't see them. They just see grind regardless of your flavor text.

 

Logic puzzle on Belsavis whose purpose is to Defeat X spaceship

Navigate the forcefield and flame trap maze in Colicoid FP to Defeat X giant robot at the end

Stealth mission in Black Hole area of Corellia to Deliver X stealth devices without alerting security

 

But in between those few and small quests you have 20 kill rat quests or courier mission, so it ruins it.

 

The 3 you described are my favorite quests in the whole game. (Excluding FPs)

 

There should have been more of them at launch. and heck the Black hole one didnt show up till 1.2 i think ...

[Daeada]

Defend convoy X (Riding on the convoy to pick off attackers) Kill stuff. Masked with a reason.

Solve a logic puzzle put in front of you by a mad AI. Fancy version of collect/click the glowies.

Navigate a maze and avoid traps. Escort yourself to Y location, added challenge.

Stealth mission to avoid detection (By Line of Sight, not in-game WoW-like steath system). Again, Escort yourself to Y location, masked.

Assisination (see above stealth mission). Bonus is to get the target WITHOUT killing anyone else. Kill something, added failure potential.

Tests of patience. More detail please?

 

There's a few more they could choose from. A few of them CAN be boiled down to your three, but they have significant alterations to them to make them more interesting.

 

Still all Kill/Collect/Escort masked with a decent reason.

[rebalnz]

lol the chances this thread not getting linked to gw2 is 1 in a million. i do look forward to gw2 alot but for me its not the 10 rats thing because in theory they still have it the just hide it extremely well.

[Oddzball]

lol the chances this thread not getting linked to gw2 is 1 in a million. i do look forward to gw2 alot but for me its not the 10 rats thing because in theory they still have it the just hide it extremely well.

 

I dont even want to play GW2, I could care less.

 

Jeff Strain did say some interesting things that pretty much echo my concerns...

 

According to James Phinney, lead designer of StarCraft and Guild Wars, every great game starts with one question: "What do I want to play next?". This may seem an obvious statement, but his point is that designers are often asked to make a game that is specifically designed to be "better" than a successful game from a competitor, rather than making a game that is exciting and new. How many designers have been asked to make a "GTA killer", or a "Guitar Hero killer", or a "WoW killer"? I personally have heard numerous designers and producers working on unreleased MMO projects describe their game in these terms: "It's like WoW, but..." I just shake my head when I hear this, because the team that is best poised to deliver a successful game that is an evolution of WoW is... well, the WoW team. They've got their thing, and they're good at it. Let's all carve out our own thing, and be the best at it. Truly great games are made by passionate teams who are on fire with the notion of changing the industry. If you are aiming at a competitor rather than aiming to make something fresh and innovative, you've lost.

 

Pretty much exactly what I am talking about. You all focus on quests, but if you read my original quotes, its deeper then that. Its the whole design of the game that is a complete throwback to the 90s MMOs...

[CajunSinjin]

What I'm waiting for is persistent, end game, open world PvP. I think this will give everyone that feeling that there is a real world going on out there.

 

I came up in MMO's on Dark Age of Camelot. In that game, there were objectives that each of the three sides fought for. You can take a bunch of enemy territory, log off and when you wake up it was lost overnight. It created a feeling that you were part of the world. Taking those keeps matter to allowing you access to special raid areas (Darkness Falls)

 

I think SWTOR can get there, but it is just learning to crawl. I'm willing to give the game time to find it's way. They are working on open world PvP areas but there isn't anything there to draw you in. One day, I envision content that will draw players to those regions in droves.

 

Cajun Sinjin

[Kirjava]

Unfortunately OP, new an innovative ways of playing i.e. sandbox, died with SWG.... Although if your looking for something of a similar vein, World of Darkness appears to be going that kind of route, which I can't wait for!

[halloandbill]

We are still there because all objectives that make sense can be boiled down to:

 

Collect something

Kill something.

Escort someone.

 

They can be masked well, sure, but that's all *anything* boiled down to, if you look deep enough.

 

If you would like to suggest some alternatives, go ahead. Willing to bet I'll be able to reduce them to kill/collect/escort!

 

Don't forget:

 

FedEx Quests

Magic Wand quests (Use item A on NPC B)

Vehicle Quests

 

That list of six about sums up the RPG experience. Oh, and OP the question I really think you are asking is "Why haven't we progressed past ability button MMO's to a more action or skill based system?"

 

The answer is we have, just no one has done it well enough to take a large market share. I do think someone will eventually pull it off and I think you're more likely to see a FPS MMO than a Skyrim type MMO be hugely successful. Mainly because if done well they may be able to pull in the CoD/BF crowd. I'd speculate it would need to be cross platform as well (Console and PC).

 

You will still see "Kill x of something or other" quests in those games. There's only so many ways to dress up a NPC asking a player to do something.

[Pathlight-]

Unfortunately OP, new an innovative ways of playing i.e. sandbox, died with SWG.... Although if your looking for something of a similar vein, World of Darkness appears to be going that kind of route, which I can't wait for!

 

I agree. My disappointment probably boils down to the fact that I chose to play a game that wasn't suited to my interests. From what I hear, I would have really enjoyed SWG and I'm most certainly going to try WOD.

[Oddzball]

Don't forget:

 

FedEx Quests

Magic Wand quests (Use item A on NPC B)

Vehicle Quests

 

That list of six about sums up the RPG experience. Oh, and OP the question I really think you are asking is "Why haven't we progressed past ability button MMO's to a more action or skill based system?"

 

The answer is we have, just no one has done it well enough to take a large market share. I do think someone will eventually pull it off and I think you're more likely to see a FPS MMO than a Skyrim type MMO be hugely successful. Mainly because if done well they may be able to pull in the CoD/BF crowd. I'd speculate it would need to be cross platform as well (Console and PC).

 

You will still see "Kill x of something or other" quests in those games. There's only so many ways to dress up a NPC asking a player to do something.

 

OMG thank you for reading my post. Seriously. Everyone got so tied up in the title of my thread they failed to read the whole post.

 

Its not just about the quest design, its the whole genre design in general. The boring button mashing, the static worlds, the boring quests(which yeah we have beat to death)

[halloandbill]

OMG thank you for reading my post. Seriously. Everyone got so tied up in the title of my thread they failed to read the whole post.

 

Its not just about the quest design, its the whole genre design in general. The boring button mashing, the static worlds, the boring quests(which yeah we have beat to death)

 

No problem.

 

There's obviously still some market for these types of MMO's otherwise companies would stop trying to make them. You're just over it. That is totally natural as our tastes in all things (including gaming) change. There are MMO's out there that offer different game mechanics you just have to try them out and they are more niche.

 

Oh, and try to title your threads better.

Edited April 19, 2012 by halloandbill

[daMarek]

I agree with OP, unfortunately I think swtor is too entrenched in these old mechanics to be upgradable to a "next-gen" MMO in future updates.

[Lunazen]

You are not comparing like with like. SWG, UO and Eve are not the same kind of game as SWTOR, Rift and WoW. They are "Sandbox" MMOs - where the developer basically just creates a world with stuff in it and lets you do what you like, a lot of the content and story is player driven and without player involvement and work on the player community's part the game falls flat. SWTOR, WoW et al. are "Theme Park" MMOs - which have much more structure, clear objectives and a clear path and storyline, with story and content updates having to be constantly provided by the developers. Some people like one type of game, others like the other - neither is intrinsically better (although Theme Park MMOs have undoubtedly been shown in the past to be wildly more popular).

 

Sounds like you are more of a sandbox type of guy/girl.

 

 

Perfectly said.

 

And that's not to disparage you, OP. I am personally the sandbox type mmo girl. LOVED swg. I find myself very unhappy with the kill 10 rats quest. But I love mmos, preferring them over offline single player rpgs, simply because I like other people in my game, or the possibility of people. Makes it feel more alive. So, I deal with it. But I hear what you're saying completely.

[Asuka]

Why do people whine, whine, whine about quests and never offer up any reasonable solution? It's easy to whine about it but offering up a solution which doesn't suck is another thing altogether.In other words, have a take, don't suck, and if you can't offer up a better solution then don't whine about it. Edited April 19, 2012 by Asuka

[Pathlight-]

Why do people whine, whine, whine about quests and never offer up any reasonable solution? It's easy to whine about it but offering up a solution which doesn't suck is another thing altogether.

 

Err... Go back and read the last 10 pages.

[Asuka]

Err... Go back and read the last 10 pages.

 

Am referring to the OP.

[Varteras]

OP, you mentioned how other games have evolved while MMOs seem to be moving backwards if not standing still. I will disagree that these games are moving backwards but I will agree that right now we seem to be at an extremely sluggish pace with the evolution of them. Honestly though, this is to be expected. Ofcourse FPS, RTS, single player RPGs, and Action/Adventure games are evolving at a much faster pace. That can easily be attributed to the fact that those games do not provide the massive play space nor need to consider the various dynamic player interactions nor need to continuously provide ample content over a given time that MMOs have.

 

Yes, all other genres of games have been quickly evolving especially over the last 10+ years but I would say their potential ceiling is fast approaching. Some argue that most genres have already hit it. The only way for most other genres to move any further is to provide a radically new interface method compared to what we currently have and there are some who would say that the next true evolution for those games is actually to become MMOs themselves.

 

Now what can Bioware do right now to ease the boredom of the usual questing? Well for starters they can create a larger variety of missions that are still based around the usual. Making missions where you remotely slice into a powerful droid and clear out an area from a distance or taking control over a walker and laying waste to everything around you or hopping into the seat of a bomber that sends you on an on-rails bombing run. Other mission types they could do which they haven't so far (that I'm aware of) would be solving puzzles (outside of operations) or being involved in a light strategy game. Blizzard has already done this in WoW with Cataclysm. They could also increase the frequency of certain mission types they already have such as escort missions or missions in which you dodge environmental hazards. I know some people don't like quests that take them away from their character that they've been building up and all of the cool abilities they have but personally I'm starting to feel bad. I've been staring at the backside of my character for so long and I haven't even taken them to dinner or at least called them.

 

Another thing that Bioware might want to do in the future is making leveling through the story a less linear experience. For a game where "story" and "choice" were buzzwords during development I didn't feel like I had much choice in my story. The dialogue options were nice but few of them amounted to anything. They were typically flavor lines or companion / moral points builders. I believe that leveling multiple characters would not only be less tiresome if we knew we could experience very different routes in our story (even if the end result is largely the same) but this could be yet another way for Bioware to entice people to roll multiple characters. The fact that they would have to not only to get all of the class stories but also to see all of the faction stories. Ofcourse the completionists would likely go back and do the faction missions they passed up but for those who want to just get to the end and start a new character this would be something to encourage them. It doesn't have to be exactly the same even when rolling the other advanced class.

 

Probably wouldn't hurt to also make more of the cinematic scenes showcase more than just two people talking. If I just cleared a valley of bombs so a convoy can roll through I'd like a scene showing it doing so or if they tell me there is a ship in orbit waiting to strike a target I designate show me the ship. Even better, when an NPC is telling me about a battle that is or just did take place show me what is going down or what did go down. I felt there were too many opportunities to show us cool cutscenes that they just did not take advantage of or at least give us a little less of two people talking about things.

 

As well, give us missions with better context than simply, "My lord. I'm an incompetent fool and couldn't get my men to perform a simple task. Then the Republic showed up in force and completely routed a small army we had in the area. I need you to single handedly take them out and save my career". Plus, don't make every mission a resounding success either. I wouldn't mind doing missions that ultimately failed no matter what I did or I at least helped to stave off the inevitable. It's one thing to feel heroic. Quite another to always feel like a god among mortals. For me that gets boring after awhile. Honestly, how am I going to explain to my wife, Jaesa, that I can clear out battalions of the Republic's finest and take a whole world where the Imperial military failed to do so but then I got killed by four elite Jawas?

 

As far as in-game events. Yes, the Rakghoul Outbreak event is mostly a static, premeditated event in which the only thing random and dynamic about it is whether or not an NPC or player gives you the plague. Don't get me wrong. I love the event and I felt it was something the game sorely needed. However I want to see random events that aren't premeditated by the devs. Republic forces attacking an Imperial base that you can help fight off. A big boss showing up somewhere that large groups of players have to kill. Not just your typical world boss. I'm talking a huge boss that not even a 16-man ops team can take down and those that do help kill it get a completed mission with a nice reward. Maybe even Republic and Imperial NPC forces clashing somewhere and players have to engage in PvPvE combat. Whoever wins gets a prize for it. Encouraging open PvP. These kinds of things would happen at random with no warning and eventually become something that is considered the norm instead of the exception.

 

In a nutshell, there are many things that Bioware can do to make this game feel a lot less like the typical MMO serving. Some of it is just giving the same thing a fresh coat of paint, some of it is borrowing from what other games are doing, and some of it is an opportunity to do things we haven't seen before even if it's not considered entirely revolutionary. Thankfully, there is plenty of room for this game to grow.

[halloandbill]

OP, you mentioned how other games have evolved while MMOs seem to be moving backwards if not standing still. I will disagree that these games are moving backwards but I will agree that right now we seem to be at an extremely sluggish pace with the evolution of them. Honestly though, this is to be expected. Ofcourse FPS, RTS, single player RPGs, and Action/Adventure games are evolving at a much faster pace. That can easily be attributed to the fact that those games do not provide the massive play space nor need to consider the various dynamic player interactions nor need to continuously provide ample content over a given time that MMOs have.

 

Yes, all other genres of games have been quickly evolving especially over the last 10+ years but I would say their potential ceiling is fast approaching. Some argue that most genres have already hit it. The only way for most other genres to move any further is to provide a radically new interface method compared to what we currently have and there are some who would say that the next true evolution for those games is actually to become MMOs themselves.

 

Now what can Bioware do right now to ease the boredom of the usual questing? Well for starters they can create a larger variety of missions that are still based around the usual. Making missions where you remotely slice into a powerful droid and clear out an area from a distance or taking control over a walker and laying waste to everything around you or hopping into the seat of a bomber that sends you on an on-rails bombing run. Other mission types they could do which they haven't so far (that I'm aware of) would be solving puzzles (outside of operations) or being involved in a light strategy game. Blizzard has already done this in WoW with Cataclysm. They could also increase the frequency of certain mission types they already have such as escort missions or missions in which you dodge environmental hazards. I know some people don't like quests that take them away from their character that they've been building up and all of the cool abilities they have but personally I'm starting to feel bad. I've been staring at the backside of my character for so long and I haven't even taken them to dinner or at least called them.

 

Another thing that Bioware might want to do in the future is making leveling through the story a less linear experience. For a game where "story" and "choice" were buzzwords during development I didn't feel like I had much choice in my story. The dialogue options were nice but few of them amounted to anything. They were typically flavor lines or companion / moral points builders. I believe that leveling multiple characters would not only be less tiresome if we knew we could experience very different routes in our story (even if the end result is largely the same) but this could be yet another way for Bioware to entice people to roll multiple characters. The fact that they would have to not only to get all of the class stories but also to see all of the faction stories. Ofcourse the completionists would likely go back and do the faction missions they passed up but for those who want to just get to the end and start a new character this would be something to encourage them. It doesn't have to be exactly the same even when rolling the other advanced class.

 

Probably wouldn't hurt to also make more of the cinematic scenes showcase more than just two people talking. If I just cleared a valley of bombs so a convoy can roll through I'd like a scene showing it doing so or if they tell me there is a ship in orbit waiting to strike a target I designate show me the ship. Even better, when an NPC is telling me about a battle that is or just did take place show me what is going down or what did go down. I felt there were too many opportunities to show us cool cutscenes that they just did not take advantage of or at least give us a little less of two people talking about things.

 

As well, give us missions with better context than simply, "My lord. I'm an incompetent fool and couldn't get my men to perform a simple task. Then the Republic showed up in force and completely routed a small army we had in the area. I need you to single handedly take them out and save my career". Plus, don't make every mission a resounding success either. I wouldn't mind doing missions that ultimately failed no matter what I did or I at least helped to stave off the inevitable. It's one thing to feel heroic. Quite another to always feel like a god among mortals. For me that gets boring after awhile. Honestly, how am I going to explain to my wife, Jaesa, that I can clear out battalions of the Republic's finest and take a whole world where the Imperial military failed to do so but then I got killed by four elite Jawas?

 

As far as in-game events. Yes, the Rakghoul Outbreak event is mostly a static, premeditated event in which the only thing random and dynamic about it is whether or not an NPC or player gives you the plague. Don't get me wrong. I love the event and I felt it was something the game sorely needed. However I want to see random events that aren't premeditated by the devs. Republic forces attacking an Imperial base that you can help fight off. A big boss showing up somewhere that large groups of players have to kill. Not just your typical world boss. I'm talking a huge boss that not even a 16-man ops team can take down and those that do help kill it get a completed mission with a nice reward. Maybe even Republic and Imperial NPC forces clashing somewhere and players have to engage in PvPvE combat. Whoever wins gets a prize for it. Encouraging open PvP. These kinds of things would happen at random with no warning and eventually become something that is considered the norm instead of the exception.

 

In a nutshell, there are many things that Bioware can do to make this game feel a lot less like the typical MMO serving. Some of it is just giving the same thing a fresh coat of paint, some of it is borrowing from what other games are doing, and some of it is an opportunity to do things we haven't seen before even if it's not considered entirely revolutionary. Thankfully, there is plenty of room for this game to grow.

 

That's a hell of a good post and I agree completely. Hats off to you sir!

Edited April 19, 2012 by halloandbill

[MorrisAO]

Eve doesnt have levels in the traditional sense btw, Ive played Eve, its nothing like traditional WoW/SWTOR

 

No its not, and that makes it a very challenging game. I've found that many traditional MMO players don't like it much because it's too different for them to handle.

[DarthKirbyOOI]

During WoW's last expansion they added in some neat quests to go along with the standard 'kill 10 x', punching Deathwing in the face being the most memorable (for me).

 

I think the system works fine but I really enjoyed the added variety.

[Jim_usmc]

No its not, and that makes it a very challenging game. I've found that many traditional MMO players don't like it much because it's too different for them to handle.

 

thankfully for GW2 they'll stay away from different (almost every aspect) game it'll be.