Why are we still in the "Kill 10 rats" era of MMOs?

[Oddzball]

So, i was kinda thinking today about MMO's in general, and I have to wonder, with the advancement of other genre why is it that a AAA critically acclaimed MMO like SWTOR resort to the same old boring "Kill X number of enemies" Or "Click/collect X number of items"?

 

Couldn't we do better? Shooters have evolved from run down (relatively) flat corridor A to room B shoot guys on the way to epic movie quality story with physics mechanics and vehicles, branching nonlinear gameplay etc etc.

 

RPGs went from menu driven battle systems to active time to real time battling/sword fight, awesome exploration, free flowing skill systems, and incredible presentation.

 

Sports games have gone from top down click button throw ball games to motion sensitive actually throwing/hitting the ball, full body experiences.

 

 

MMOs? Or SWTOR specifically as well. Same crap(for the most part) from EQ days. Go kill some rats. Go collect some weeds.

 

Push buttons 1-12(- and =) on your keyboard, move sometimes, watch guy swing sword/lightsaber or fire gun. Still managing 4 hotbars of buttons. A mindless rotation of buttons with a few situational thrown in,

 

I thought the light/darkside choices would actually make a difference but essentially once you reach 50 you all have follow the same path/railroad with very little difference. THats right, you lightside jedi will end up at 50 in the same position my darkside one does.

 

Heck i even tried to be the absolutely worst Jedi imaginable(Killed, murdered, stole, lied), and i still made it out of the academy, became a Jedi knight, then a master and so on etc etc...

 

I call that the illusion of choice.

 

Its not impossible to bring something new to the table. AoC had semi interesting combat mechanics, FE was a full fledged Mad MAX style shooter MMO, SWG had genious crafting.

 

Why does it fell like SWTOR did a great job with story, but grabbed the rest of their game from 1999.

Having great story, and boring/repetitive game mechanics doesn't make a great game.

 

Especially when you roll an alt and have to slog through 90% of the same quests again, do the same dailies a mindless amount of times to grind gear, and ALWAYS no matter what choices you make, end up in the same place as the last 50 guys.

 

I loved the game when it first came out, it was fantastic.. until I realized its the same crap that has been shoved down our throats since the EQ theme-park. Every planet has X organization that needs help because nobody can do anything on their own, you go kill some guys, click on some terminals/bombs/boxes, you move on to the next planet.

 

Ill continue this post later.. TBC

[Daeada]

We are still there because all objectives that make sense can be boiled down to:

 

Collect something

Kill something.

Escort someone.

 

They can be masked well, sure, but that's all *anything* boiled down to, if you look deep enough.

 

If you would like to suggest some alternatives, go ahead. Willing to bet I'll be able to reduce them to kill/collect/escort!

[Oddzball]

*cough* so anyway to continue..

 

Why do we still have levels? UO and SWG(pre update), Eve to name a few proved that this wasn't needed.

Many MANY roleplaying games operate completely separate from levels. Popular ones even such as World of Darkness, Warhammer....

 

And when we bring up levels, and the grind of endgame, WHY oh god WHY does ever MMO have to be a giant epeen gear grind wankfest at endgame? Seriously? Why is it about the gear and not the player skill or strategy?

 

TBC..

[flyersfan]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Daeada is right. If you look hard enough, you can easily say that all games are just "go from A to Z."

 

To me, it seems like you want high-quality set pieces that games like Mass Effect and even the newer Call of Duty games feature. With the setting of the MMO, that's just not really possible. It would look ridiculous outside of instanced areas and it's just not as easy to pull off. If this was KotOR III, then it'd be a different story.

 

EDIT: Also, the graphics in MMOs are so bad that I don't know if I'd even want the company to waste the time making those set pieces. For example, I was playing my Scoundrel on Coruscant's first mission where the initial conversation shows a guy dealing cards and it looks terrible. The physics are all messed up and it just looks bad. The set pieces for my Consular were equally as poor, but I don't blame BioWare because it's doing the best it can with what it's using.

Edited April 19, 2012 by flyersfan
Adding more

[Drakkip]

Every planet has X organization that needs help because nobody can do anything on their own, you go kill some guys, click on some terminals/bombs/boxes, you move on to the next planet.

Ill continue this post later.. TBC

 

Haha... my friend who I levelled with, would always say over ventrilo as we approached an NPC "Well let me guess, this guy is incompentent and can't do S**t on his own and needs our help solving some inconsequential problem, because clearly a jedi master needs to help ever pathetic person who can't get their s**t together"

 

I laughed cause I thought he was being a little silly at first, but by the time I got to my mid 20's I was like yeah... the cinematics are cool, but it's like the same NPC story over and over again....

[Kaphik]

*cough* so anyway to continue..

 

Why do we still have levels? UO and SWG(pre update), Eve to name a few proved that this wasn't needed.

Many MANY roleplaying games operate completely separate from levels. Popular ones even such as World of Darkness, Warhammer....

 

And when we bring up levels, and the grind of endgame, WHY oh god WHY does ever MMO have to be a giant epeen gear grind wankfest at endgame? Seriously? Why is it about the gear and not the player skill or strategy?

 

TBC..

 

Um, Eve does have levels, there are skill levels in that game. The reason that many roleplaying games follow a level and gear formula is because most people want clear and reachable objectives in their game. Even shooters are taking elements from RPGs and adding in a bit of level and/or gearing to give people something to reach for. Pure skill-based results aren't even in sports game, because you are still gearing up your team by trying to build the best players, and then utilizing those players to maximum benefit to win.

 

You seem to want less of a game, and more of a virtual world. Second Life is still going, and turning a healthy profil still, that may be something that suits your preferences more.

[Oddzball]

We are still there because all objectives that make sense can be boiled down to:

 

Collect something

Kill something.

Escort someone.

 

They can be masked well, sure, but that's all *anything* boiled down to, if you look deep enough.

 

If you would like to suggest some alternatives, go ahead. Willing to bet I'll be able to reduce them to kill/collect/escort!

 

Sure!

 

Tracking/BH quests where you have to research/tail your target and find the right time to strike or capture them. Tail you target, track them down etc etc..

(FE has this)

PUZZLES! (SWTOR has a few but its mostly just in raids) DDO did this GREAT btw. All kinda of puzzles in that game. TSW is suppose to involve a lot of this as well.

 

LIVE DYNAMIC EVENTS!

How hard could this be? I like the Rakghoul thing sure, but its static, and one day we will wake up, and it will just disappear.

 

UO had entire cities INVADED by undead armies, with boss mobs controlled by REAL people, who roleplayed the part and everything. Hell they had QUESTS that were like this, with riddles and clues and all kinda of crap.

 

CRAFTNG! Why don't we have quests involving crafting? You would be surprised how many folks would like this. Going out and finding rare minerals or materials, meeting buy orders etc.

 

I know with limited interfaces like the Keyboard and mouse its tough to innovate, but other genres have done it, why not MMOs?

 

I dont just mean quests btw. I talk about a lot of concepts that have grown stale, or been over used.

[AidanLightwalker]

*cough* so anyway to continue..

 

Why do we still have levels? UO and SWG(pre update), Eve to name a few proved that this wasn't needed.

Many MANY roleplaying games operate completely separate from levels. Popular ones even such as World of Darkness, Warhammer....

 

And when we bring up levels, and the grind of endgame, WHY oh god WHY does ever MMO have to be a giant epeen gear grind wankfest at endgame? Seriously? Why is it about the gear and not the player skill or strategy?

 

TBC..

 

While you might not like what the above poster said, its true. The reason its not solely based on skill is because that would make it an action adventure game, not a rpg. Rpgs have always been a thinking mans game and number based. If I wanted to play a game based off of "controller" skill, thats what my console is for. Just my opinion.

[Oddzball]

Um, Eve does have levels, there are skill levels in that game. The reason that many roleplaying games follow a level and gear formula is because most people want clear and reachable objectives in their game. Even shooters are taking elements from RPGs and adding in a bit of level and/or gearing to give people something to reach for. Pure skill-based results aren't even in sports game, because you are still gearing up your team by trying to build the best players, and then utilizing those players to maximum benefit to win.

 

You seem to want less of a game, and more of a virtual world. Second Life is still going, and turning a healthy profil still, that may be something that suits your preferences more.

 

Second life is just a virtual chatroom. Its not like zombies are going to invade and kill everyone or something.

 

WHat im talking about are things like MMOs still have static NPCs that just stand around waiting to be killed, while real RPGs have evolved to have living breathing dynamic worlds.

 

Eve doesnt have levels in the traditional sense btw, Ive played Eve, its nothing like traditional WoW/SWTOR

[RoboRope]

This made me LOL.

I mean really what do you want?

 

Go:

---Kill

---Save

---Gather

---Solve

---Find

 

Go play Second Life.

~see what I did there.

[Oddzball]

While you might not like what the above poster said, its true. The reason its not solely based on skill is because that would make it an action adventure game, not a rpg. Rpgs have always been a thinking mans game and number based. If I wanted to play a game based off of "controller" skill, thats what my console is for. Just my opinion.

 

You can have RPGs that require skill and not just numbers and hitting a skill rotation. Look at Fallout, look at Skyrim,

[Lungbutter]

Gaming, like life, is about the journey not the beginning and not the end.

[Darkulous]

I think the OP is over MMO's in general.

[Drakkip]

Sure!

 

UO had entire cities INVADED by undead armies, with boss mobs controlled by REAL people, who roleplayed the part and everything. Hell they had QUESTS that were like this, with riddles and clues and all kinda of crap.

 

I forget what they were called now (seers I think), but UO had player that were designated to be "story tellers" I think game designers are reluctant/unwilling to had over control of an event to players for fear of it being exploited/abused.

 

UO was buggy etc... but I don't think any game has come close to it's raw ability for players to be able to roleplay.

[Bocek]

Why when I play tennis do have to serve the ball into the little box? Why can't just smack the ball anywhere I want, it shouldn't even have to land in the court. Tenis has been around for 100's of years, surely we should be progressed passed this by now.

[Keldain]

*cough* so anyway to continue..

 

Why do we still have levels? UO and SWG(pre update), Eve to name a few proved that this wasn't needed.

Many MANY roleplaying games operate completely separate from levels. Popular ones even such as World of Darkness, Warhammer....

 

And when we bring up levels, and the grind of endgame, WHY oh god WHY does ever MMO have to be a giant epeen gear grind wankfest at endgame? Seriously? Why is it about the gear and not the player skill or strategy?

 

TBC..

 

You are not comparing like with like. SWG, UO and Eve are not the same kind of game as SWTOR, Rift and WoW. They are "Sandbox" MMOs - where the developer basically just creates a world with stuff in it and lets you do what you like, a lot of the content and story is player driven and without player involvement and work on the player community's part the game falls flat. SWTOR, WoW et al. are "Theme Park" MMOs - which have much more structure, clear objectives and a clear path and storyline, with story and content updates having to be constantly provided by the developers. Some people like one type of game, others like the other - neither is intrinsically better (although Theme Park MMOs have undoubtedly been shown in the past to be wildly more popular).

 

Sounds like you are more of a sandbox type of guy/girl.

[Oddzball]

Gaming, like life, is about the journey not the beginning and not the end.

 

But im talking about the Journey.

 

I had a GREAT time leveling my first lvl 50 Sith, and lvl 50 Republic, but now? Its just kinda Bleh.

 

MMOs try to hide simple tasks behind the word ‘quest’, and spend a lot of time putting filler around that task to make it seem special. That needs to stop. The reason most people skip flavor text is because there is too much of it and the good gets lost in the bla. If the game wants me to kill ten rats, just have an NPC tell me “go kill ten rats and I’ll give you gold”. Don’t pretend the rat kill task is something epic because the poor static NPC’s family is starving due to the rats getting into his grain bla bla bla. I don’t care, I’m killing rats in order to move my xp bar along, not because I want to save the static NPCs family (which I can’t anyway, and we all know that going into it)

 

It’s scary that actual questing has changed so little in the MMO space, especially with some many PvE-focused games. Playing it safe is certainly the current trend, but how many elaborately written rat kill quests can we stomach?

 

The generic quest is everywhere, and seems to have no bounds to its banality. Sometimes you must "collect 8 rabbit pelts". As a "change of pace" courier mission, "deliver this to the local smith." Without fail, these are boring quests. There is no challenge to them – and throughout level increments, they seem to exist without fail.

 

What a good quest demands is weight of action – the poor, generic quests make the user wonder if, simply out of boredom, Hoppy Harebrain isn't going to make a continent-sized parachute with the billions of rabbit-pelts he undoubtedly receives. A good quest might make you question whether to get the pelts at all, or pursue a similar option through a different vendor. The mechanics of a good quest run deeper than this, however, another overwhelming question emerges – if these can be defined so well, why, oh why aren't there more of them?

[Kaphik]

real RPGs

There's your problem. You want a computerized virtual world capable of just about anything imaginable, except you don't seem to understand the limitations that an online MMORPG has. As well as the return of investment required to develop a huge game. You want a tabletop RPG.

[Misthalin]

While you might not like what the above poster said, its true. The reason its not solely based on skill is because that would make it an action adventure game, not a rpg. Rpgs have always been a thinking mans game and number based. If I wanted to play a game based off of "controller" skill, thats what my console is for. Just my opinion.

 

I get your point, but I wouldn't say that SWTOR is much of a "thinking mans game and number based". The old-school RPGs, which I loved, truly incorporated these features to a great extent (Diablo, BG2, NWN, Arcanum etc), yet few RPGs (much less MMOs) feature much of those gaming aspects these days.

[Oddzball]

Why when I play tennis do have to serve the ball into the little box? Why can't just smack the ball anywhere I want, it shouldn't even have to land in the court. Tenis has been around for 100's of years, surely we should be progressed passed this by now.

 

Wow you picked the wrong sport to try and make a straw arguement with. Tennis has evolved and changed drastically over the last 100 years..

[Oddzball]

I get your point, but I wouldn't say that SWTOR is much of a "thinking mans game and number based". The old-school RPGs, which I loved, truly incorporated these features to a great extent (Diablo, BG2, NWN, Arcanum etc), yet few RPGs (much less MMOs) feature much of those gaming aspects these days.

 

Maybe its the dumbing down of games for a new generation?

[Oddzball]

It seems to me that while other game genres have thrived and advanced in complexity and mechanics, MMORPGs have actually gotten progressively dumbed down....

[Saahh]

*cough* so anyway to continue..

 

That wasnt polite. She had a valid response.

[Oddzball]

That wasnt polite. She had a valid response.

 

No no taken out of context, I wasn't saying that in regards to any one person. I just tend to talk in a more narrative tone. I was actually just using that to transition between posts.

[Misthalin]

There's your problem. You want a computerized virtual world capable of just about anything imaginable, except you don't seem to understand the limitations that an online MMORPG has. As well as the return of investment required to develop a huge game. You want a tabletop RPG.

 

You could argue that 200+ millions of USD is a decent budget for making something that could challenge the static. Yet we all know that Bioware (or is it EA?) more so came to the conclusion that they wanted to copy the successful MMO concept that was WoW, for a hopefully guaranteed payback.