Tank Assassins (and Shadows) are ruining PvP.

[Varicite]

My numbers of reducign the **** out of tank and not just shaod or sin damage is by making thier tanking abilities have more of an effect on PVP. while cutting thier damage thier surviveability would sky rocket at the same time. I am not say just cut thier damage. I am a firm believer if you cut one place you should put in some where and for PVP things should work liek a triangle and have 3 extreems. Damage, Control and survivability. Each class shoudl be high at a far point and no where close to the other points. So tanks would be at end of Survivability but low on control and even lower on Damage. A healer would be high on Control low on survivability and even lower on damage. DPS would be high on Damage, low on Control and even lower on survivability.

 

Now you could tailor the oval in the triangle based on the different abilities of each different advanced class and would keep everythign from becoming a cookie cutter. I think that would force rated teams to bring a mix witht them and would make PVP more fun for all involved.

 

Well, I think the odds of a complete overhaul of every single AC in the game as well as re-tuning every mob and boss, etc are pretty low at this point.

 

What you described is ideal, certainly, but it's not going to happen, imo. At least not for a while.

[offbeatpaladin]

As a Scoundrel, tank assassins are one of my easiest fights 1v1. Much more afraid of tank powertechs/vanguards.

[Neamhan]

Oh, my bad. I thought it had to proc to be uninterruptable.

 

You still need at least one stack of Harnessed Shadows. You just don't need all three. There's really no reason to ever use a TK Throw with no HS stacks though, or even less than 2.

[Zintair]

Ok, so you're saying the counter to sin tanks is to have 2-3 DPSers focus fire them. Do you not see anything wrong with that?

 

Any class can be countered by focus fire. You don't think 1vs1 matter in PvP and you couldn't be more wrong. If a class cannot be countered by any other class with everything else being equal, it means that in order to capture an objective being guarded by said class, you will need to dedicate two of your team members, which will put you at a disadvantage somewhere else. I guarantee you if I'm guarding a turret on my sin tank, you will need at least two players to take it away from me, three if said players aren't very good, and that's if no reinforcements arrive. Why? Because my sin can destroy any class in a 1vs1. This means that the rest of my team will be outnumbering yours everywhere else because you had to dedicate 2-3 players just to take me down.

 

I know from seeing you in WZs that you are not a very good sin tank, so send me a PM and I'll be more than glad to share a couple of tips with you. Who knows, you might even realize just how good sin tanks are in team PvP.

 

I can see how an amatuer would think like you do. COnsidering I;ve been PvPing since DAOC im going to have to say you have no concept of true team PvP and group play. No balance will ever be achieved on a 1v1 basis. It naturally goes against the trinity system. You need to learn some MMO basics.

 

BTW. If your guarding your node alone that means my team has the other two and your scrubyness already lost. Thanks for making me win in your example. Because ANYONE knows if a team has 1 or 0 defenders they probably are zerging a point to try and reclaim one.

 

And in regards to seeing me play... LOLOL what maybe 2-3 times?

 

I never saw you at any server 4v4 or 3v3, u must of been owning PUGs in WZs. I RARELY see you in a warzone and if it is it's Huttball which I could give 2 ***** about.

 

And if I recall you still placed below me in medals and protection, not that the end scenario matters merely that we beat you.

 

Fact of the matter is, I'm actually.... MUCH better than you.

 

 

Feel free to say what you want. I'll be here LOLing at your scrub DPS while my Sentinel buddy melts you.

[Stavroz]

FINALLY PROOF THESE PEOPLE ARE CLUELESS

 

 

Please do detail how you interrupt Powertech Tracer Missiles. I'd love to hear your counter. While we are at it... lets actually counter the right class with Railshot/Flame burst etc etc.

 

 

Assassins and Shadows are easy to counter.

 

Soft Counters:

1) CC their TKT/Shock

2) Staying out of melee decreases their burst, and after 15M you limit them to practically nothing but CC and tickle dps.

3) Snare

4) Root

5) DoT to prevent Vanish

 

Hard Counters:

Sorc DPS

Powertech DPS

Operative DPS

 

 

A Sorc should EASILY be able to outkite. And there

 

How in the fuk can a Sage out kite tank Shadow when they share the same CCs!

Do you even know what the hell your a talking about??

They share the same stun, the same life the same snare and the same knockback. They are IDENTICAL in the basic CC's. It come from being a consular/inquisitor.

 

They share the same sprint with the difference being the shadow spint is far better. It is on shorter cooldown AND BREAKS roots and snares.

 

And if all of that is not enough they can vanish they can knock you down for an additional CC.

 

And even if that is not enough they can just scorpion grapple your arse straight back to them.

 

O and lets not forget they can go invulnerable every 45secs which makes them un CCable and wipes all dots and negative effects off them.

 

It is clear you do not play a sage/sorc and have no ****ign idea what you are talking about.

 

Simply put evenly if a sage and shadow are evenly geared and piloted by comparably skilled players Shadows will face roll the sage.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Stavroz

[Zintair]

How in the fuk can a Sage out kite tank Shadow when they share the same CCs!1 Do you even know what the hell your a talking about??

They share the same stun, the same life the same snare and the same knockback

 

They share the same sprint with the diffrence being the shadow spint is far better. It is on shorter cooldown AND BREAKS roots and snares.

 

And if all of that is not enough they can vanish they can knock you down for an aditional CC.

 

And even if that is not enough they can just scorpion grapple your arse straight back to them.

 

O and lets not forget they can go invulnerable every 45secs which makes them un CCable and wipes all dots and negative effects off them.

 

It is clear you do not play a sage/sorc and have no ****ign idea what you are talking about.

 

Simply put evenly if a sage and shadow are evenly geared and piloted by comparably skilled players Shadows will face roll the sage.

 

Ontop of having IDENTICLE CC powers the Shadow BREAKS roots and snares with sprint. The Shadow has a 20second cooldown on said sprint compared to 30sec on sage

 

Instant force lift

2 Sec Root on short CD

Bubble

(just what I can remember off the top of my head)

 

You conveniently forgot a couple BIG CCs. And I'm not saying they can endlessly kite. But they have the ability to kite and should be EASILY able to do it.

 

Not to mention you only need 15M to effectively kite if their CC is down.

 

You people are making it like its ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE - Its actually possible and not hard to do if you time your abilities well.

 

Once again... They can't kite us FOREVER but it could be enough to kill us.

 

Its like you people only want to consider IMPOSSIBLE scenarios, its not to keep away from a Shadow for a minute until help arrives. When are you EVER going to be kiting for 3 minutes as you try to whittle away their health.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Zintair

[Neamhan]

Using the training dummy as your level of mitigation, a full burst with 3 stacks of HD + eveyrthing else does 9600 damage and heals the Sin for about 2K.

 

Using 35% crit rate 75% surge, 2X2HD would do 8228 + (8228 * (0.3*1.75 + 0.7/1.75) = 13988 damage and heal for 0.

 

Note that due to the difficulty of setting up 3 stacks, it actually takes roughly the same time to fire off 2X2HD compared to 1X3 HD.

 

So the question is do you want to do 4000 more damage or heal yourself for 2000. It's a judgment call but again, using these numbers from a training dummy, the 13988 damage from FL alone would easily bring most characters to Assassinate range, and then you just kill them and stop 100% of their incoming DPS.

 

Keep in mind that the Assassin has one of the most powerful finisher in the game. Against low defense classes, Assassinate is often instant kill.

 

Are you counting Force Potency in there? Because it wouldn't apply to the second 2 stack TK Throw.

 

Guardians have a similar finisher with a slightly longer range, btw.

[Sosajoshua]

Outside of getting attacked from behind(and even then since tank ***/shadow) ill kite them all with my Sorc because i know what I can do. You speak generally and believe all Sorc/Sages suck you are sadly mistaken

[DarthOvertone]

For those of you talking about burst DPS or lack there of, go purchase a Warzone training dummy (it's a good idea anyway) and record down your biggest numbers on it. I got 9600 in a single Force Lightning. I'm curious what classes can also do 9600 damage in 2 consecutive GCDs on the dummy.

 

Please show me a 9600 crit on a real player by a Tanksin. I await your screenshot, and undoubtedly will be doing so until hell freezes over.

 

Training dummies...lawl

[Krytycal]

I can see how an amatuer would think like you do. COnsidering I;ve been PvPing since DAOC im going to have to say you have no concept of true team PvP and group play. No balance will ever be achieved on a 1v1 basis. It naturally goes against the trinity system. You need to learn some MMO basics.

 

BTW. If your guarding your node alone that means my team has the other two and your scrubyness already lost. Thanks for making me win in your example. Because ANYONE knows if a team has 1 or 0 defenders they probably are zerging a point to try and reclaim one.

 

And in regards to seeing me play... LOLOL what maybe 2-3 times?

 

I never saw you at any server 4v4 or 3v3, u must of been owning PUGs in WZs. I RARELY see you in a warzone and if it is it's Huttball which I could give 2 ***** about.

 

And if I recall you still placed below me in medals and protection, not that the end scenario matters merely that we beat you.

 

Fact of the matter is, I'm actually.... MUCH better than you.

 

 

Feel free to say what you want. I'll be here LOLing at your scrub DPS while my Sentinel buddy melts you.

 

Lol, you're pretty desperate to prove your point when you start making up stuff. I remember your name because I remember stomping your sin a couple of times in WZs. I very much doubt I've lost against your premade because I don't even recall ever PvPing against your guild. Matter of fact, I can't even think of a good republic PvPer who's in that guild.

 

And before this thread gets derailed any further, just remember why we're having this argument. You said sorcs/pryos/ops could hard counter sins, which is not true. If you'd like to prove me wrong, I'm sure we can arrange a match and put it to test.

[Neamhan]

So many people in this thread either living in denial, or afraid that their Super Tank will get nerfed.

 

I play a Sentinel and my DPS is pretty sick 1 vs 1, but something is not right when you allow Tankassins to have the tanking set, and then swap out their mods/enhancements for DPS ones. Their survivability and damage is INSANE - no tank should be able to put out the damage of a pure DPS spec, ever.

 

I went 1 vs 1 with one such Tankassin in NC last night, and to no surprise my burst did squat. He then proceeded to burst me down in no seconds flat. That is not right. The penalty for having the increased survivability of a tank, is to put out less damage. That's how the holy trinity works. Yet there are Tankassins rolling around with insane survivability and yet have the damage of a pure DPS spec. I wouldn't have minded so much if he had whittled me down, but no, he burst me down in around 15 seconds like a pure DPS specced class.

 

You can't have a game that is based on the holy trinity and then allow classes to do this, it breaks the system. Hence why Tankassins are indeed broken - why this game is broken.

 

No tank is putting out anything close to the damage of a DPS spec. If someone wants to post up a log of a tank doing over 1200 sustained DPS (which is what Damage specced classes are getting on average) then let's see it.

[KalTorrak]

[quote name='arkzehhh']Shadow's are squishy, even with CD'S up, L2Counteract them, and stop being bad. there more or less a 1v1 class (yes they have the ability too cc etc etc...) but they should destroy you ESP with cooldown's available, stop crying. Assasin tank's on the other hand, yes they need there dmg lower quite a bit. Oh and while there at it, nerf mara/sents, i hear they need it now .[/QUOTE] The funny thing is, Imperial Operatives got nerfed for being able to 1v1 well, just healers, and we got nerfed to the ****house and back and don't have NEAR the survivability Sins / Shadows do, so what gives? Also Mara's / Sents are op but thats just well know and needs to be fixed.

[Zintair]

Lol, you're pretty desperate to prove your point when you start making up stuff. I remember your name because I remember stomping your sin a couple of times in WZs. I very much doubt I've lost against your premade because I don't even recall ever PvPing against your guild. Matter of fact, I can't even think of a good republic PvPer who's in that guild.

 

And before this thread gets derailed any further, just remember why we're having this argument. You said sorcs/pryos/ops could hard counter sins, which is not true. If you'd like to prove me wrong, I'm sure we can arrange a match and put it to test.

 

Yeah I really need to make stuff up about a nobody from no guild.

 

Mayb when you actually accomplish something you'll stop posting and start actually doing it.

 

Like I said before, we already went to HDHF 4v4. We were even "winning" the first round against Maelstrom until Gaucho and Poison interrupted.

 

Dont recall seeing you there. Maybe you were sick that day? Or you can't hide behind your warzone endgame stats?

[Stavroz]

Instant force lift

2 Sec Root on short CD

Bubble

(just what I can remember off the top of my head)

 

You conveniently forgot a couple BIG CCs. And I'm not saying they can endlessly kite. But they have the ability to kite and should be EASILY able to do it.

 

Not to mention you only need 15M to effectively kite if their CC is down.

 

You people are making it like its ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE - Its actually possible and not hard to do if you time your abilities well.

 

Once again... They can't kite us FOREVER but it could be enough to kill us.

 

Its like you people only want to consider IMPOSSIBLE scenarios, its not to keep away from a Shadow for a minute until help arrives. When are you EVER going to be kiting for 3 minutes as you try to whittle away their health.

 

Again you show your ignorance

 

Shadows ALSO have Instant force lift. Both AC share the Balance tree.

Roots are BROKEN by sprint which is on a 20sec cooldown which is the same cooldown for the KB which can be speced to root. So again one cancels out the other.

 

So sure a sage can spec for when bubble collapses it will mezes targets around it for 3secs. Cool fine. That is one cc extra.

 

Shadow still has stealth

Shadow still has the Grapple.

Still has the vanish.

Still has the invul,

Still has the knockdown (spinning kick)

 

Simply put anything the Sage can do the Shadow can do better when it comes to CC and Escaping CC.

 

So again no a sage can not kite a Shadow.

[Neamhan]

The only time getting rooted is a serious problem is when you're on a fire pit and it's not like every other class in the game is vulnerable to this too. Sure I've been rooted 3 times and burned to death, but every other class would've died in that situation too.

 

Edit: actually Marauder could survive that with Undying Rage, though I just don't see too many Marauder running the ball because they'd be forced to burn Undying Rage way earlier if they can't get a good leap off.

 

That's neither here nor there since I was replying to someone who claimed Shadows were immune to roots. That clearly isn't the case.

[Neamhan]

It does not have to be comparwed to a mara but I will give you the post straight from the shadows forums.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=385688

 

That will show tanks are pullin close to DPS numbers in damage and maintaining an out of line nitigation for such damage.

 

The test dummies on the test server when those parses were done were apparently bugged. This is a thread with parses done from the live sever. It's not PvP specific, but I haven't been able to find any test done with PvP gear yet so it's as accurate as we have so far.

[SentinelBorg]

Unless something changed in 1.2, Force Leap roots work through anything. ANYTHING. That includes a Shadow's Resilience and anyone's Resolve. They might Force Speed after you leap them to break the root, but then they have to wait 20 seconds before using it again for that sprint/score.

If you parry Force Leap (yes, it's a melee attack), you don't get rooted. ^^

[Neamhan]

Please read the entire thread I linked directly from the shadows forums. In there shadows actually address how the problem comes into play with PVP. Now if you are collecting the data straight from the book you should be able to use it as evidence. Yet we still have people trying to claim the damage is no where close to a DPS specs numbers. I would say a tank should only do a max of 25% of the damage potential of a DP Sspeced player. That would cut down on the out of balance. The buff the use of tanking abilities in PVP and I just put tanks in check. They would not be able to DPS a dpser and live forever. The only people i see tryign to argue against this would be the ones hiding behind it and using a tank to take advantage of the current inbalance.

 

So if a Damage spec does 1000 DPS a tank should only do 250? Yeah, I don't think so.

 

The poster Neamhan actually had a good idea of linking the set bonuses tied to the stance they were in so if a tank put on DPS gear and took a defensive stance they would nto gain DPS bonuses from the gear. would reallly knock them into check fast. Also seemed like a very solid way to limit those hiding behind out of balance players to me.

 

Unfortunately it was pointed out to me that it would be easy to get around since you can just swap out the mods anyway. Ironically, the best way to get people to use tank gear over damage gear would be to improve the performance of Defense/Shield in PvP.

[RefugeASSASSIN]

Using the training dummy as your level of mitigation, a full burst with 3 stacks of HD + eveyrthing else does 9600 damage and heals the Sin for about 2K.

 

Using 35% crit rate 75% surge, 2X2HD would do 8228 + (8228 * (0.3*1.75 + 0.7/1.75) = 13988 damage and heal for 0.

 

Note that due to the difficulty of setting up 3 stacks, it actually takes roughly the same time to fire off 2X2HD compared to 1X3 HD.

 

So the question is do you want to do 4000 more damage or heal yourself for 2000. It's a judgment call but again, using these numbers from a training dummy, the 13988 damage from FL alone would easily bring most characters to Assassinate range, and then you just kill them and stop 100% of their incoming DPS.

 

Keep in mind that the Assassin has one of the most powerful finisher in the game. Against low defense classes, Assassinate is often instant kill.

 

The Dev's themselves said just today that DPS scores on training dummies are not accurate because they dont take into account misses, evades etc. So you cant even reliably use anything done on a training dummy and call it fact.

 

Im a full Battlemaster Tankasin wearing stalker gear. My force lightning with Recklessness+relic popped only hits for over 1500 a tick if im going against a fresh 50. Now your looking at roughly 7000k damage if its allowed to tick through on a fresh 50. On a geared opponent your lookin more at 1000-1200 Tops which is considerably lower.

 

This doesnt even take into account defensive bubbles other classes have. If I hit a Maurader or a Sent that has his defensive cooldown popped, im looking at 200-500 for the entire duration on a DPS class. So that becomes a wasted rotation and now I have to regroup before I get pounded into the ground. Not to mention if he has teh 99% damage ruduction then its even lower. Its also fun to hit a Sorc or its mirror and watching all 4 of your ticks come back reading "Absorb.....Absorb....Absorb....Absorb".

 

You people act like this is the greatest PVP class ever invented and its not. Its a well balanced class. I also still get smacked pretty hard by cover classes as well when they are geared right so again, you can sit there and say were over powered. Say that were going to get nerfed and cry about being bad, but the simple truth is that BW has the metrics of the classes and the fact that they have not even touched our class shoudl tell you that its working as intended. But hey, if you whine hard enough and we get nerfed, well then I guess you can worry about taking out all those Mauraders and Sents all by yourself since we wont be viable enough to help you.

[Krytycal]

Yeah I really need to make stuff up about a nobody from no guild.

 

Mayb when you actually accomplish something you'll stop posting and start actually doing it.

 

Like I said before, we already went to HDHF 4v4. We were even "winning" the first round against Maelstrom until Gaucho and Poison interrupted.

 

Dont recall seeing you there. Maybe you were sick that day? Or you can't hide behind your warzone endgame stats?

 

Lmao, first you brought up the whole "played DAOC" thing, now that you almost won a match in some random 4vs4, what's next? Were you a WoW gladiator too?

 

Talk about desperate.

 

Also,

a video of the first 4vs4 tournament held in HoG, which we actually won. Edited April 20, 2012 by Krytycal

[Zerogates]

I must say I agree with what you posted except when I got to here.

 

Are we sure its the Stealth feature that is the problem or the fact that we can Vanish from combat.

 

I don't see where a Tank spec gains that added advantage from stealth considering they achieve no real benefit from it except .. to go back into it when FF'd?

 

Curious your opinion here

 

EDIT: unless you mean CCing solo players protecting nodes etc.

 

The CCing from stealth while defending is one thing, since a tank setup is already going to have higher survival it makes it almost too powerful in defense. The other thing is that I do not believe assassins or shadows in tank spec should be without stealth, but that their effective stealth capabilities are reduced. Vanishing mid fight is a cheap tool but I will not voice my ideas on that as it applies to all stealthing by agents/smugglers as well.

 

Either way I do not have a clear suggestion as to what I think should be done for tanks in regards to stealthing as opposed to damage builds, but I do not think a class who can sacrifice some damage for significant, albiet necessary survival, should also retain the positioning and utility capabilities granted by stealth in its full effect.

 

Best I can think of is if the harnessed darkness proc is activated, the one everyone truly complains about and is entirely tied to the tanking tree, then an out of combat delay on stealthing could be added. Force tanks to be in the open longer, such as after a kill involving the damage boost , then they are forced to wait 10-15 seconds before stealthing again, then they become more like tanks. Damage assassins and shadows who lack survival are the ones who truly need to hide and heal in most cases.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Zerogates

[Neamhan]

Guard, stuns, cc's, snares.

 

Actually, I have a problem that assassins have a larger toolkit than guards by far AND STILL have vastly superior dps. I don't mind that a tank can kill someone. I mind that juggs/guardians can't, and assassins can AND assassins get heal streams, stealth and a cc with no cd.

 

Assassins don't have a larger 'toolkit' (I assume you mean utility?) than Guardians, 'by far' or otherwise. They also don't have 'vastly superior' dps. I mean, right in this thread people are talking about getting 9k damage out of ravage in a 31/8/2 Immortal spec. Where is this 'vastly superior' Shadow damage coming from? Throw up some numbers and let's see it.

[Neamhan]

Shadows ALSO have Instant force lift. Both AC share the Balance tree.

 

I'm not going to get into the middle of this Shadow vs Sage argument, because it's stupid. However, in order for a Shadow to get instant Force Lift you'd have to go all the way up to tier 4 in the Balance tree, which means giving up Harnessed Shadows and one of either Bombardment or Stasis. No tank in their right mind will do that. Sure it's technically possible but it would just be a gimmick build.

[Neamhan]

Are you on drugs? They have the highest burst (I'm assuming that's what you meant by spike) of any tank. By like, a lot. They have lower sustained, but in my experience the burst is w-a-a-a-y higher.

 

No they don't. See my above post with people talking about 9k Ravage hits.

[Astakhan]

Nobody knows what they are talking about on this thread, it's awesome. I guess this is the patch for whining 1.2.

 

Maybe you should enlighten everyone with your vast knowledge that obviously no one else has...

 

...bring us all up to speed with your incredible insights. Please.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Astakhan