Tank Assassins (and Shadows) are ruining PvP.

[Scoobings]

I dont get why darkness healing is coming up 2160 hp for a 18000 hp tank people can use basic attack to counter almost

 

Especially the set up time required for that heal. The self healing was never anything that really bothered me to be totally honest.

[Varicite]

It does not have to be comparwed to a mara but I will give you the post straight from the shadows forums.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=385688

 

That will show tanks are pullin close to DPS numbers in damage and maintaining an out of line nitigation for such damage.

 

That post shows 31/0/10 tanks well below DPS specs, by like 300 DPS. In FULL RAKATA Stalker gear, mind you.

 

Is this the right link? <.<

 

Or are you talking about the 27/0/14 hybrid, because I thought this thread was about 31/0/10 tanks in DPS gear.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Varicite

[Astarica]

That post shows 31/0/10 tanks well below DPS specs, by like 300 DPS. <.<

 

Is this the right link?

 

Or are you talking about the 27/0/14 hybrid, because I thought this thread was about 31/0/10 tanks in DPS gear.

 

The damage distribution on the 31/0/10 is in no ways optimal for any scenario since Thrash nets you negative DPS in 31/0/10.

[Varicite]

The damage distribution on the 31/0/10 is in no ways optimal for any scenario since Thrash nets you negative DPS in 31/0/10.

 

This is a PvP thread in the PvP forum, though.

 

You will not be using an optimal rotation at all times in PvP; that's not how it works.

[Neamhan]

I mean really, this thread is redundant, because as you and every other tankassin in dps gear knows...

...the nerf bat is coming for you, regardless of outcry.

 

Because ratings ARE coming eventually. The facts / numbers / ratings will bear it all out. What will it be then? That only the Tankassins / Tankshadows are the good players in this game?

 

Nerfbat is coming for you guys, like it or not and your adamant denial just adds incentive for everyone to point and laugh when it comes your direction.

 

So provide some of those facts and numbers. I provided some which show Shadows are balanced right where they're supposed to be. I've yet to see anyone provide any numbers to show otherwise. It's nothing but 'Shadows are overpowered because I said so' with nothing to back it up. Seems like you're the one in denial since you can't back up anything you say with any actual facts or numbers.

[Astarica]

This is a PvP thread in the PvP forum, though.

 

You will not be using an optimal rotation at all times in PvP; that's not how it works.

 

Using Tharsh is still negative DPS even in PvP when you're in 31/0/10 because Wither is strictly better for everything. The only reason to use Thrash in 31/0/10 is to hit someone in Force Shroud.

 

27/0/14 obviously have to use Thrash since they do not have Wither.

[Varicite]

Using Tharsh is still negative DPS even in PvP when you're in 31/0/10 because Wither is strictly better for everything. The only reason to use Thrash in 31/0/10 is to hit someone in Force Shroud.

 

27/0/14 obviously have to use Thrash since they do not have Wither.

 

I dunno if you noticed this, but Wither, Shock, Assassinate, and Discharge all have cds.

 

Sometimes you still need to hit people, and it's not always optimal to pool Force to use a target-dummy rotation in PvP, when you can easily capitalize on Energize procs, etc.

 

You can go on never using Thrash if you like, but I think that's kind of a silly notion when you have 4+ talents invested into making Thrash better. Not to mention its synergy w/ all of the Shock talents the build takes. It's a situational skill, sure, but FAR from useless in a 31/0/10 build in PvP.

 

PvP isn't all about DPS. If it were, there wouldn't be so many Tankasins around.

 

PS) Show me a parse of a Tankasin in DPS gear using an optimal rotation and outdps'ing any of the real DPS classes, because I haven't seen any. Everything I've seen shows Tankasins in DPS gear to be 2-300 dps below real DPS specs.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Varicite

[Thankyjack]

Ive got a sith assassin alt and i have to say.. this is completely true. I get more dps than a dps specced player. Its grossly OP

Only on some maps against some teams. Like PTs, most darkness dps comes from fewer rezes.

[Veeius]

Agreed.

 

Can I kill a Tankasin with my Sent/Mara? Sure. Have I been killed by one? Sure as well.

 

But their DPS when compared to other tanks is wildly disproportionate. Poor DPS specd Guardians...

 

what I don't understand is this:

 

Guards/juggs have poor dps, and a crappy heal that cripples their dps.

 

tankasins have great dps, stealth, a cc that's usuable while stealthed, and has no cd, AND constants heal stream.

 

Oh, also, it's is CRAZY that their aoe taunt can be used while stealthed and doesn't break stealth. Seriously? The ENTIRE reason for taunt is to force you to attack someone.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Veeius
adding fact

[Astarica]

I dunno if you noticed this, but Wither, Shock, Assassinate, and Discharge all have cds.

 

Sometimes you still need to hit people, and it's not always optimal to pool Force to use a target-dummy rotation in PvP, when you can easily capitalize on Energize procs, etc.

 

You can go on never using Thrash if you like, but I think that's kind of a silly notion when you have 4+ talents invested into making Thrash better. Not to mention its synergy w/ all of the Shock talents the build takes. It's a situational skill, sure, but FAR from useless in a 31/0/10 build in PvP.

 

PvP isn't all about DPS. If it were, there wouldn't be so many Tankasins around.

 

PS) Show me a parse of a Tankasin in DPS gear using an optimal rotation and outdps'ing any of the real DPS classes, because I haven't seen any. Everything I've seen shows Tankasins in DPS gear to be 2-300 dps below real DPS specs.

 

Wither -> Shock -> FL -> Saber Strike irotation is already Force negative. Using Thrash just takes you to 0 even sooner.

 

Wither does more expected DPS than Thrash on a single target.

 

Because you cannot predict when Energize procs, you stil have to use Shock before you use Thrash, otherwise you could end up with just Thrashing repeatedly for no reason when you've bad luck.

 

I don't know what kind of conditions those test DPS parses are done (duration, CD usage, rotation) so there's no point to compare to them at this point. I'll say that based on just eyeballing, a Force-neutral rotation would never come close to these quoted numbersd, but that's not saying anything useful. I suspect those parses end long before they hit the 0 resource point because Darkness DPS parse should be far worse given the described rotation if the parse was for say 5 minutes.

 

I can certainly run some parses but I need to know what we're trying to accomplish here, i.e. max DPS in 30 seconds? Max DPS while Force-neutral?

[Varicite]

Wither -> Shock -> FL -> Saber Strike irotation is already Force negative. Using Thrash just takes you to 0 even sooner.

 

Wither does more expected DPS than Thrash on a single target.

 

Because you cannot predict when Energize procs, you stil have to use Shock before you use Thrash, otherwise you could end up with just Thrashing repeatedly for no reason when you've bad luck.

 

I don't know what kind of conditions those test DPS parses are done (duration, CD usage, rotation) so there's no point to compare to them at this point. I'll say that based on just eyeballing, a Force-neutral rotation would never come close to these quoted numbersd, but that's not saying anything useful. I suspect those parses end long before they hit the 0 resource point because Darkness DPS parse should be far worse given the described rotation if the parse was for say 5 minutes.

 

I can certainly run some parses but I need to know what we're trying to accomplish here, i.e. max DPS in 30 seconds? Max DPS while Force-neutral?

 

Well, I think the most important numbers to the discussion would be max DPS in say, 30 seconds and 1 minute compared to x/31/x spec at 30 seconds and 1 minute.

 

That would at least show where the Tankasin sits in regard to its own DPS AC, which is somewhat average as far as all of the DPS classes go, from what I've seen.

[tspev]

Please read the entire thread I linked directly from the shadows forums. In there shadows actually address how the problem comes into play with PVP. Now if you are collecting the data straight from the book you should be able to use it as evidence. Yet we still have people trying to claim the damage is no where close to a DPS specs numbers. I would say a tank should only do a max of 25% of the damage potential of a DP Sspeced player. That would cut down on the out of balance. The buff the use of tanking abilities in PVP and I just put tanks in check. They would not be able to DPS a dpser and live forever. The only people i see tryign to argue against this would be the ones hiding behind it and using a tank to take advantage of the current inbalance.

 

The poster Neamhan actually had a good idea of linking the set bonuses tied to the stance they were in so if a tank put on DPS gear and took a defensive stance they would nto gain DPS bonuses from the gear. would reallly knock them into check fast. Also seemed like a very solid way to limit those hiding behind out of balance players to me.

[Varicite]

Please read the entire thread I linked directly from the shadows forums. In there shadows actually address how the problem comes into play with PVP. Now if you are collecting the data straight from the book you should be able to use it as evidence. Yet we still have people trying to claim the damage is no where close to a DPS specs numbers. I would say a tank should only do a max of 25% of the damage potential of a DP Sspeced player. That would cut down on the out of balance. The buff the use of tanking abilities in PVP and I just put tanks in check. They would not be able to DPS a dpser and live forever. The only people i see tryign to argue against this would be the ones hiding behind it and using a tank to take advantage of the current inbalance.

 

The poster Neamhan actually had a good idea of linking the set bonuses tied to the stance they were in so if a tank put on DPS gear and took a defensive stance they would nto gain DPS bonuses from the gear. would reallly knock them into check fast. Also seemed like a very solid way to limit those hiding behind out of balance players to me.

 

So, you think no tank should do more than 350 DPS. That is just a little bit ridiculous, I think you need to rethink your numbers.

 

You basically don't want a tank to kill anything ever. Just stand there and take it until they die. Gotcha.

 

Edit: Removed some unnecessary snark. : )

Edited April 20, 2012 by Varicite

[tspev]

That post shows 31/0/10 tanks well below DPS specs, by like 300 DPS. In FULL RAKATA Stalker gear, mind you.

 

Is this the right link? <.<

 

Or are you talking about the 27/0/14 hybrid, because I thought this thread was about 31/0/10 tanks in DPS gear.

 

No where in this thread did it say the tank had to be a 31/0/10 spec to pvp. I mean there were things to discourage otehr classes from speccing hybrid but it has not hit Shadows or Sins as of yet. so 27/0/14 is still a viable and doable spec. Some of the people even suggest it is better over all in PVE.

[Varicite]

No where in this thread did it say the tank had to be a 31/0/10 spec to pvp. I mean there were things to discourage otehr classes from speccing hybrid but it has not hit Shadows or Sins as of yet. so 27/0/14 is still a viable and doable spec. Some of the people even suggest it is better over all in PVE.

 

Eh, I get that. Most people were talking about Wither, and how "fast" tanks are building their HD stacks for self-healing, etc. so I assumed this was a discussion about 31/0/10 tanks. : )

[Tinmancreeping]

I play a shadow tank for the enjoyment factor being able to have multiple options in a pvp scenario is great.

All this Q.q is anoything... post reall legit findings and links or shush. Also ive always played as a 31 shadow tank and still do and yes I use Tank gear. I do have my place in WZs but fact is we our a very situational class in terms of survivability, Healing can seem op when combined with stim and other skills, but 3 proc TK throw by itself is only usefull in small scale fights and with DPS bump in 1.2 rooting myself for 3 seconds to get subpar heal is scary.

 

As another poster (in green) has said each tank has its pros and cons but at the end of the day all are comparble in tanking.

 

On the otherhand A shadow tank in DPS gear is a problem, BUT they are a waterd down tank and if you know how to play your class you can kill em.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Tinmancreeping

[tspev]

Yeah, I stopped caring about your opinion when you said that you think no tank should do more than 350 DPS.

 

You basically don't want a tank to kill anything ever. Just stand there and take it until they die. Gotcha.

 

So because i have made a valid point and you have no clear counter to it. You want to tak ea liberal stance and just hide behind you do nto care about my opinion. Love it keep following that train of thought.

 

Would tanks doing low damage impact PVE? Are tanks taken to Ops because they are blowign bosses up? No they are taken to HOLD AGGRO that leads me to think the intended purpose of a tank is to generate threat not blow things up.

 

Your idea is a tank shoudl be able to blow things up and survive for ever at the same time. So please gatehr a real counter arguement to what I posted. Those posts were nto by me they were by actual people playing Shadows both DPS and tanks.

[Varicite]

So because i have made a valid point and you have no clear counter to it. You want to tak ea liberal stance and just hide behind you do nto care about my opinion. Love it keep following that train of thought.

 

Would tanks doing low damage impact PVE? Are tanks taken to Ops because they are blowign bosses up? No they are taken to HOLD AGGRO that leads me to think the intended purpose of a tank is to generate threat not blow things up.

 

Your idea is a tank shoudl be able to blow things up and survive for ever at the same time. So please gatehr a real counter arguement to what I posted. Those posts were nto by me they were by actual people playing Shadows both DPS and tanks.

 

Eh, I reread what I had written and tried to make it a little less confrontational, but looks like you beat my edit. /shrug

 

My idea is that a tank should be able to do enough damage to make the class feel FUN. 350 DPS at 50 is not really that. No, I'm not saying they need to do insane damage, but they DO need to do enough damage to at least make them feel worth playing for people.

 

This is still a game, in the end.

 

I don't know if you noticed, but I'm rather vocal. I don't need to "hide behind" anything. Doing a quarter of the dps of every other class is just ridiculous, considering even HEALERS can put out a lot more DPS than that.

 

As for "no counter", I noticed you didn't mention anything about how your proposed change would cause them to perform in PvP, which is what this thread (and forum) is about. How do you think 350 DPS is going to translate to PvP for tanks, hmm?

 

Think they'll be able to kill anything like that? Keep in mind that 350 DPS is what a lv25 character can pull.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Varicite

[venjinze]

Nobody knows what they are talking about on this thread, it's awesome. I guess this is the patch for whining 1.2.

[Veeius]

So, you think no tank should do more than 350 DPS. That is just a little bit ridiculous, I think you need to rethink your numbers.

 

You basically don't want a tank to kill anything ever. Just stand there and take it until they die. Gotcha.

 

Edit: Removed some unnecessary snark. : )

 

Guard, stuns, cc's, snares.

 

Actually, I have a problem that assassins have a larger toolkit than guards by far AND STILL have vastly superior dps. I don't mind that a tank can kill someone. I mind that juggs/guardians can't, and assassins can AND assassins get heal streams, stealth and a cc with no cd.

[Varicite]

Guard, stuns, cc's, snares.

 

Actually, I have a problem that assassins have a larger toolkit than guards by far AND STILL have vastly superior dps. I don't mind that a tank can kill someone. I mind that juggs/guardians can't, and assassins can AND assassins get heal streams, stealth and a cc with no cd.

 

Oh, I agree w/ you. I think the total package may be too much.

 

I was merely replying to the guy who states that tanks should only do 25% of the DPS of other classes. <.<

[shirayuki]

So because i have made a valid point and you have no clear counter to it. You want to tak ea liberal stance and just hide behind you do nto care about my opinion. Love it keep following that train of thought.

 

Would tanks doing low damage impact PVE? Are tanks taken to Ops because they are blowign bosses up? No they are taken to HOLD AGGRO that leads me to think the intended purpose of a tank is to generate threat not blow things up.

 

Your idea is a tank shoudl be able to blow things up and survive for ever at the same time. So please gatehr a real counter arguement to what I posted. Those posts were nto by me they were by actual people playing Shadows both DPS and tanks.

 

will people whine because tanks cant do damage? yes. why? because people dont want to rely on others for every little thing and having to respec every time you do something gets stupid

[tspev]

Eh, I reread what I had written and tried to make it a little less confrontational, but looks like you beat my edit. /shrug

 

My idea is that a tank should be able to do enough damage to make the class feel FUN. 350 DPS at 50 is not really that. No, I'm not saying they need to do insane damage, but they DO need to do enough damage to at least make them feel worth playing for people.

 

This is still a game, in the end.

 

I don't know if you noticed, but I'm rather vocal. I don't need to "hide behind" anything. Doing a quarter of the dps of every other class is just ridiculous, considering even HEALERS can put out a lot more DPS than that.

 

As for "no counter", I noticed you didn't mention anything about how your proposed change would cause them to perform in PvP, which is what this thread (and forum) is about. How do you think 350 DPS is going to translate to PvP for tanks, hmm?

 

Think they'll be able to kill anything like that? Keep in mind that 350 DPS is what a lv25 character can pull.

 

My numbers of reducign the **** out of tank and not just shaod or sin damage is by making thier tanking abilities have more of an effect on PVP. while cutting thier damage thier surviveability would sky rocket at the same time. I am not say just cut thier damage. I am a firm believer if you cut one place you should put in some where and for PVP things should work liek a triangle and have 3 extreems. Damage, Control and survivability. Each class shoudl be high at a far point and no where close to the other points. So tanks would be at end of Survivability but low on control and even lower on Damage. A healer would be high on Control low on survivability and even lower on damage. DPS would be high on Damage, low on Control and even lower on survivability.

 

Now you could tailor the oval in the triangle based on the different abilities of each different advanced class and would keep everythign from becoming a cookie cutter. I think that would force rated teams to bring a mix witht them and would make PVP more fun for all involved.

[Krytycal]

Yes.

 

Lets pretend like the only PvP at the moment is warzones. Imagine in some crazy way there are other people besides yourself in their. It might even be an 8v8 Balanced match.

 

Lets pretend like in organized PvP each class has a role. If a Shadow or Assassin tank is giving your team trouble. Its like this thing called...

 

FOCUS FIRE

 

 

Its incredible what it can do. Its like your hardswitching from the Healer to the Tank and MELTING him and his squishy self.

 

Don't join a rateds team. Team JOKE rz may not be up to the challenge if your just going to duel people all day in there.

 

Ok, so you're saying the counter to sin tanks is to have 2-3 DPSers focus fire them. Do you not see anything wrong with that?

 

Any class can be countered by focus fire. You don't think 1vs1 matter in PvP and you couldn't be more wrong. If a class cannot be countered by any other class with everything else being equal, it means that in order to capture an objective being guarded by said class, you will need to dedicate two of your team members, which will put you at a disadvantage somewhere else. I guarantee you if I'm guarding a turret on my sin tank, you will need at least two players to take it away from me, three if said players aren't very good, and that's if no reinforcements arrive. Why? Because my sin can destroy any class in a 1vs1. This means that the rest of my team will be outnumbering yours everywhere else because you had to dedicate 2-3 players just to take me down.

 

I know from seeing you in WZs that you are not a very good sin tank, so send me a PM and I'll be more than glad to share a couple of tips with you. Who knows, you might even realize just how good sin tanks are in team PvP.

[Zintair]

So because i have made a valid point and you have no clear counter to it. You want to tak ea liberal stance and just hide behind you do nto care about my opinion. Love it keep following that train of thought.

 

Would tanks doing low damage impact PVE? Are tanks taken to Ops because they are blowign bosses up? No they are taken to HOLD AGGRO that leads me to think the intended purpose of a tank is to generate threat not blow things up.

 

Your idea is a tank shoudl be able to blow things up and survive for ever at the same time. So please gatehr a real counter arguement to what I posted. Those posts were nto by me they were by actual people playing Shadows both DPS and tanks.

 

You have literally no idea what you are talking about.

 

You do not have an arguement here you have an ignorant opinion about mechanics you have no concept of.

 

As a tank whose cleared HM EC week 1 I do about 200k total damage to the bosses on most fights.

 

Are you telling me my 200k DPS on the boss is any less valid than the 370k my Sentinel did? or the 350k my Commando did?

 

Cause Im pretty sure without my 200k the boss has 200k left to DPS with the enrage timer around the corner.

 

Please stop posting that crap, and do me a favor and stop trying to validate your arguments with what other people in other forums stated. It was 100% opinion pretty much until parsers came out.