Tank Assassins (and Shadows) are ruining PvP.

[DarthKhaos]

You forgot to mention that assassin/shadow tanks also have some nice DPS in their tanking tree that keep them on par with other DPS. Going deep into the tank tree gives you more DPS rather than more protection. I don't think people would be very happy if the healers had some nice DPS by specing to the top of their trees.

 

The only good part about that is that I realize my BH tank is not going to be killing any healers so I have to concentrate on helping my teamates. The downside of that is there are times when I have no teamates worth helping and end up being just as useless.

 

I intend to play all classes/AC eventually, but my Powertec had to chose between tank/functionality and DPS. My shadow did not need to make that choice. My guardian is only 27, so my disapointment with the tanking/survivability part of that class may change as I get more levels.

ALL tank trees got that. Increased crit, extra dots etc etc etc. It's to help with holding threat. Take a look at the tanking tree in powertech for example.

[Astakhan]

Yeah I can completely understand the difficulty of that scenario.

 

 

But it's your teams fault for making a DPS Sorc Guard a node alone. Not the Shadows fault.

 

This is the problem I have with your arguments. Every scenario you bring up is poor decision making from the information you give.

 

Ok, we find some common ground.

 

I don't have a pre-made to queue with. I solo queue. I've solo queued my way WH with full battlemaster and 2 insignificant WH pieces.

 

Balance cannot start with optimal pre-made groups. The way to achieve it is by the over-stated, rock/paper/scissors. Maybe an operative is the answer to an Tankassin, but I doubt it, due to the amount of damage the Tankassin can mitigate from the operative.

 

Look, I'm not new to MMO's, I didn't start with this game or WoW, I've been playing MMO's for 13+ years now. There is a reason holy-trinity has been around for that time span and a reason for rock/paper/scissors.

 

I don't claim to know every AC and their capabilities, but I've been farmed enough by one class, the same one my wife plays (that I help her spec and gear) to know that it needs to be brought in-line somehow.

 

Some of it is the absolute disreguard by Bioware for the well established self-evident-truths of MMO design... such as a tank shouldn't be able to do comparable dps to pure dps classes, that a light armor, no defensive CD class should have the best dps and burst of all classes, etc, etc...

 

Admittedly, my grievence isn't with just DPS Tankassins, but with Bioware's complete failure to balance all of the classes. Tankassins having a counter to everything I can do, is just a glaring sore spot.

[Zintair]

Ok, we find some common ground.

 

I don't have a pre-made to queue with. I solo queue. I've solo queued my way WH with full battlemaster and 2 insignificant WH pieces.

 

Balance cannot start with optimal pre-made groups. The way to achieve it is by the over-stated, rock/paper/scissors. Maybe an operative is the answer to an Tankassin, but I doubt it, due to the amount of damage the Tankassin can mitigate from the operative.

 

Look, I'm not new to MMO's, I didn't start with this game or WoW, I've been playing MMO's for 13+ years now. There is a reason holy-trinity has been around for that time span and a reason for rock/paper/scissors.

 

I don't claim to know every AC and their capabilities, but I've been farmed enough by one class, the same one my wife plays (that I help her spec and gear) to know that it needs to be brought in-line somehow.

 

Some of it is the absolute disreguard by Bioware for the well established self-evident-truths of MMO design... such as a tank shouldn't be able to do comparable dps to pure dps classes, that a light armor, no defensive CD class should have the best dps and burst of all classes, etc, etc...

 

Admittedly, my grievence isn't with just DPS Tankassins, but with Bioware's complete failure to balance all of the classes. Tankassins having a counter to everything I can do, is just a glaring sore spot.

 

I have to agree here.

 

Your point is further proven by their lack of even HAVING the technology to transfer characters to other servers en masse.

 

Its like they failed out of MMO school and were given a trust fund worth of resources to create a game that took into account nothing an MMO should.

 

Their PvP Team Lead should be fired ASAP. Sorry Gabe but your not doing it wrong, YOU DID IT WRONG.

 

Like I said though, I play the TANK TANK Shadow. We are in a good place.

 

The problem is Bioware doesn't understand the stats of their own game.

 

Proof: Rakata gear and +accuracy to death // Even now they don;t know what classes are trying to stack.

 

If they knew this they would have never made +PWR/Surge mods for classes that can auto-crit.

 

Just mistake on top of mistake.

[Hermagaddon]

I cant speak for a Tankassin wearing DPS gear, as i have never played that way. I am a Tankassin wearing Tank gear.

 

So, for all the crying. You guys can do this, and that. Even with the use of all my abilities. A decent/good healer can heal him/herself through my damage. As it is not that high as people claim it to be. The only real damage attack we have is force lightning, though only when used with both Harnessed Darkness and Recklessness.

 

1vs1, Yes we are a good class due to the fact that we are so versatile. But, A dps does alot more damage. And a jug can take more damage. There are only 2 classes that are easy for a Tankassin. That is the sniper and its counterpart and a dps specced sorcerer and its counterpart.

 

Apart from that. As long as the other class knows how to play the class. Which only very few on my server do. Its an equal fight. I lose some, and i win others. And if they dont know how to play their class... then yeah. I destroy them easily. But if i easily destroy 3 diff people of the same class in one versus one. And then have a hard time against another person of the same class in a 1vs1. Then who's fault is it? It it the assa's fault for being unbalanced? Or yours because you dont know how to play your class?

[Barrgil]

Haha, my Tank Assassin has like 300 expertise and geared towards PvE and I can still get around 10 medals at least every game.

 

I try to be a team player and try to win as much as I can though my team doesn't tend to do so at times. I'm not complaining though, I do very well for a non-pvper if I do say so myself but I wouldn't consider us to be overpowered. Not at all.

[Astakhan]

I cant speak for a Tankassin wearing DPS gear, as i have never played that way. I am a Tankassin wearing Tank gear.

 

So, for all the crying. You guys can do this, and that. Even with the use of all my abilities. A decent/good healer can heal him/herself through my damage. As it is not that high as people claim it to be. The only real damage attack we have is force lightning, though only when used with both Harnessed Darkness and Recklessness.

 

1vs1, Yes we are a good class due to the fact that we are so versatile. But, A dps does alot more damage. And a jug can take more damage. There are only 2 classes that are easy for a Tankassin. That is the sniper and its counterpart and a dps specced sorcerer and its counterpart.

 

Apart from that. As long as the other class knows how to play the class. Which only very few on my server do. Its an equal fight. I lose some, and i win others. And if they dont know how to play their class... then yeah. I destroy them easily. But if i easily destroy 3 diff people of the same class in one versus one. And then have a hard time against another person of the same class in a 1vs1. Then who's fault is it? It it the assa's fault for being unbalanced? Or yours because you dont know how to play your class?

 

Bleh, I don't want to start up a flame war again...

...but try this, play a pure dps and try to find a good dps geared tankassin.

 

I do not begrudge a Tankassin the abilities and utilities they have, I've played my wife's toon, it's fun, it's cool as hell.

 

It's those abilities and utility coupled with dps gear that "breaks" the balance.

 

Make it to where dps gear requires a spec other than Kinetic, there's an option... hehe.

 

As to whether I know how to play my class, I won't argue the point other than to say that there may be 2 others that play my class on my server that beat me more than 50% of the time in 1v1 scenarios. I know my class pretty well and execute it's cababilities pretty well also.

[Neamhan]

Why do Assassin/Shadows have their Project/Shock & Telekinetic Throw/Force Lightning fixed at 10m in comparison to the Sage who gets it buffed to 30m once they get their advanced class. And then they just completely throw the class mechanics away and give them a 30m stun.

I never understood that. - Because all the tanks get something that can affect opponents at 30m range. Guardians also have a 30m stun, it's called Force Leap

 

Tank Assassins:

The only Tank class that can remove snares by themself - The mobility offered by Force Speed is to make up for a lack of any kind of leap like the other two tanks get.

 

Can commit only ONE talent point to increasing their shield chance by 10% - Vanguards have to commit 5 talent points for christ sake, Juggernauts can only get 4% - If you mean Kinetic Ward, it's 15% but it has 8 charges which can be used up very fast, after which it provides no bonus to shield at all. Vanguards get their shield bonus 100% of the time (plus they get Power Screen) and Guardians have other mechanics (stacking +defense on Riposte and Blade Barrier shields). Different tanks are different.

 

Have the highest internal/elemental defense without the help of third party buffs, from their own utility buff, which in comparison makes their buff the most tank viable. - Anyone can get this buff now.

 

Can completely remove all debuffs on them and make themself immune for 3 seconds, again the only buff which is truly viable for a tank in comparison. - Guardians can increase their own health, and have two cooldowns that provide increased mitigation. Different tanks are different.

 

Has the most cooldowns - Incorrect. Guardians have the most.

 

Has the most stuns - Incorrect. Guardians have the most.

 

Has the most aoe's - Do you mean all AoEs or just damage? All the tanks have at least 2 damage AoEs. Shadows only have 3 if you include the incredible force hog Whirling Blow.

 

Has the fastest energy regeneration mechanic (being force power, it doesn't slow down or alter in anyway like Juggernaut/Guardians whilst in Soresu Form's rage gain, it doesn't lower your recovery rate the more consumed/exhausted your energy is like Vanguard/Powertech ammo system/Heat system) - Both the Guardian and Vanguard have cooldowns to instantly give them resources, which the Shadow cannot do. Different tanks are different.

 

Can remove ALL snares, the ONLY type of cc as it were that doesn't add resolve, and the skill that does this effect (Force Speed), it's cooldown is also reduced when you spec this tree. - You already said this so I guess I'll repeat myself, too. The mobility offered by Force Speed is to make up for a lack of any kind of leap like the other two tanks get. By the way, roots also ignore resolve. Both Guardians and Vanguards have access to a root, while a Shadow does not.

 

Has a talent point that at it's peak can inflict 75% extra damage with Force Lightning/Telekinetic Throw - That's the 2nd HIGHEST talent based passive damage increase that exists in the game, and it only requires 3 talent points, not 5. - And yet the damage a Shadow can do is completely in line with the damage any tank can do. As for individual abilities, Master Strike does comparable damage (even after a Shadow takes the extra damage talents on TK Throw) and Vanguards have the instant High Impact Bolt (which can be easily specced for armor penetration). Vanguards can also spec for +9% Aim and Guardians can spec for +6% Strengh, both of which add to their overall damage. Shadows have no +Willpower skill in any tree at all.

 

If you actually take a look, every other talent in the game that increases damage whether due to skill activation, proccs or trigger rates, NONE exceed 50% except this one... in a tank spec. I've seen people hit 8k with this skill on full bm... if this is normal then why are people ************ about ravage? - TK Throw is channeled over 3 seconds. Any tank can put out that much damage over 3 seconds.

 

 

 

-That is a sad commentary even in itself.

People are getting this stupid concept that instead of nerfing one class, its more justified to buff every other class to bring them up to the same level of magnitude. I don't know what's so special about the Shadow Class, but clearly it was worked on more than any other, to the point that Bioware are scared to nerf it.

Take a closer look at the class, and if you're a decent player, you'll realise one nerf in ANY area of this class would gimp it. That's the biggest joke

 

Kinetic tanks don't need a nerf because they're right where the devs want them to be. All tanks put out similar damage, have similar damage mitigation and have excellent utility. When making a list of abilities that one tank has, keep in mind that the others either have some similar or something else that makes up for whatever it is you're listing, as the above shows.

[Varicite]

Bleh, I don't want to start up a flame war again...

...but try this, play a pure dps and try to find a good dps geared tankassin.

 

I do not begrudge a Tankassin the abilities and utilities they have, I've played my wife's toon, it's fun, it's cool as hell.

 

It's those abilities and utility coupled with dps gear that "breaks" the balance.

 

Make it to where dps gear requires a spec other than Kinetic, there's an option... hehe.

 

As to whether I know how to play my class, I won't argue the point other than to say that there may be 2 others that play my class on my server that beat me more than 50% of the time in 1v1 scenarios. I know my class pretty well and execute it's cababilities pretty well also.

 

Instead of doing all that, you should ask BW to take another look at tanking stats in PvP.

 

Let me ask you this: As a DPS, would you wear Healing gear in PvP?

 

Because that's about how stupid it is to wear Tanking gear in PvP as a Tank right now.

 

Instead, you are basically asking them to force Tankasins to go into PvP w/ half the stats of everybody else.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Varicite

[BDutch]

Kinetic tanks don't need a nerf because they're right where the devs want them to be. All tanks put out similar damage, have similar damage mitigation and have excellent utility. When making a list of abilities that one tank has, keep in mind that the others either have some similar or something else that makes up for whatever it is you're listing, as the above shows.

 

Which is why you see so many "Nerf defense guardians" and "Nerf shield vanguards" threads.

Edited April 20, 2012 by BDutch

[Neamhan]

Yes, there are DPS-Chars that deal significantly more DMG than the Shadow and even deal mostly single-target burst DMG, but as I've stated in my post before: The Shadow deals less DMG, but it's DMG is the best kind, so you can't directly compare it to every DD there is. For example Sages that deal more Dot and AoE-DMG, which can easily be healed compared to burst-DMG. But mostly, the Fulltank-Shadow is fine in terms of DMG. The reason why I propose a nerf to harnessed shadows and slow time is als because you get the stacks for harnessed shadows and therefore your selfheal very quickly, which makes the FullTank Shadow very effective in certain situations.

 

Except tank Shadows have low spike damage, so the damage they're putting up isn't the 'best kind', either. When they put up big numbers on the final WZ scoreboards, that's mostly Slow Time splash damage. As for nerfing the heals, the heals are there specifically because a Shadow has the lowest DR of any tank, by at least 10%. The heal is nice for smaller engagements because those can last long enough for the heals to be a factor. The tradeoff is that when focused, a Shadow will go down faster than either of the other two tanks, even with the 5 seconds you might get from Resilience.

 

The self heal does make a Shadow very effective in certain situations. They are less effective in other situations. Why is this a problem?

 

Spec stuff.

 

I don't think the tradeoff is worth it, but that's personal preference. Like I said, if it works for you then knock yourself out. I'm not trying to tell you how to play or how to spec. The point is, though, that it has nothing to do with nerfing tanks. I just found it interesting that you want to nerf only the abilities that you don't use.

[Metalmac]

I cannot gank (insert class here) in under three seconds. (Insert class here) is OP. Please nerf (insert class here) until I can gank them in under 3 seconds.

 

The only thing ruining pvp is people like the OP and BW listening to them.

 

The result? Welcome to 1.2 pvp.

 

Tank Assassins in DPS gear needs to be fixed.

 

You have a hard to kill spec with self heals and burst damage and to top it off massive stuns.

 

I suggest that if a tank is wearing DPS gear that the self heal just disappears and that would fix the problem.

[Astarica]

For those of you talking about burst DPS or lack there of, go purchase a Warzone training dummy (it's a good idea anyway) and record down your biggest numbers on it. I got 9600 in a single Force Lightning. I'm curious what classes can also do 9600 damage in 2 consecutive GCDs on the dummy. To put things in perspective, I got my half Champion geared merc and HSM hits for 3820 on the dummy without using relic/adrenal (don't got reusable ones to experiment), though somehow I don't see adding another 1000 damage and that's only halfway there, and I sure don't have another attack that hits as hard as HSM to use.

[Scoobings]

Except tank Shadows have low spike damage, so the damage they're putting up isn't the 'best kind', either. When they put up big numbers on the final WZ scoreboards, that's mostly Slow Time splash damage. As for nerfing the heals, the heals are there specifically because a Shadow has the lowest DR of any tank, by at least 10%. The heal is nice for smaller engagements because those can last long enough for the heals to be a factor. The tradeoff is that when focused, a Shadow will go down faster than either of the other two tanks, even with the 5 seconds you might get from Resilience.

 

The self heal does make a Shadow very effective in certain situations. They are less effective in other situations. Why is this a problem?

 

 

 

I don't think the tradeoff is worth it, but that's personal preference. Like I said, if it works for you then knock yourself out. I'm not trying to tell you how to play or how to spec. The point is, though, that it has nothing to do with nerfing tanks. I just found it interesting that you want to nerf only the abilities that you don't use.

 

Are you on drugs? They have the highest burst (I'm assuming that's what you meant by spike) of any tank. By like, a lot. They have lower sustained, but in my experience the burst is w-a-a-a-y higher.

[Varicite]

Tank Assassins in DPS gear needs to be fixed.

 

You have a hard to kill spec with self heals and burst damage and to top it off massive stuns.

 

I suggest that if a tank is wearing DPS gear that the self heal just disappears and that would fix the problem.

 

Yeah, no.

 

I suggest they fix tanking stats.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Varicite

[Superawesomerman]

Not sure why people arent pointing this out, but sin tanks are the only tanks with significant self healing. Being able to taunt, guard and heal yourself is what makes the sin tank head and shoulders above the other two tanks. Then add good dps on top of that and you see why the sin tank is overpowered.

[Neamhan]

i dont know the class, but the biggest issue when fighting one assasin/shadow tank is the big immunity to to cc they have. its really frustating, you leap them, they dont root, after that you force stun and it works, try to force push after force stun - it dont work, they use the sprint skill and WOAAH ROOTWORM SCORED!

 

Unless something changed in 1.2, Force Leap roots work through anything. ANYTHING. That includes a Shadow's Resilience and anyone's Resolve. They might Force Speed after you leap them to break the root, but then they have to wait 20 seconds before using it again for that sprint/score.

[Scoobings]

Yeah, no.

 

I suggest they fix tanking stats.

 

It would be kind of nice if the tanking stats weren't so useless. Also, it would be nice if the other 2 trees were more viable

[Astarica]

Unless something changed in 1.2, Force Leap roots work through anything. ANYTHING. That includes a Shadow's Resilience and anyone's Resolve. They might Force Speed after you leap them to break the root, but then they have to wait 20 seconds before using it again for that sprint/score.

 

The only time getting rooted is a serious problem is when you're on a fire pit and it's not like every other class in the game is vulnerable to this too. Sure I've been rooted 3 times and burned to death, but every other class would've died in that situation too.

 

Edit: actually Marauder could survive that with Undying Rage, though I just don't see too many Marauder running the ball because they'd be forced to burn Undying Rage way earlier if they can't get a good leap off.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Astarica

[Varicite]

It would be kind of nice if the tanking stats weren't so useless. Also, it would be nice if the other 2 trees were more viable

 

Well, people keep pointing at DPS gear as though that has any bearing on this issue.

 

Tanks don't wear tank sets because they are TERRIBLE for PvP. It would be exactly like putting on healing gear as a DPS and expecting to perform at the top of your game.

 

Fix THAT, and you will see a lot less tanks in DPS gear. Right now, there is literally NO REASON to EVER wear a tank set in PvP, other than handicapping yourself for a challenge.

[Scoobings]

The only time getting rooted is a serious problem is when you're on a fire pit and it's not like every other class in the game is vulnerable to this too. Sure I've been rooted 3 times and burned to death, but every other class would've died in that situation too.

 

Edit: actually Marauder could survive that with Undying Rage, though I just don't see too many Marauder running the ball because they'd be forced to burn Undying Rage way earlier if they can't get a good leap off.

 

I've actually seen it. They make pretty solid rebounders, grab the ball and predation. Solid mitigation (but nothing to write home about). They're like sorcs, they can't hold it for long (especially if there are a lot of people around them) but they can definitely serve a niche purpose with the ball.

[tspev]

Im pretty sure at no point have you proven, or even made a reasonable attempt to prove that tank specced sins damage is too high, so no, by definition thats just your unsupported and worthless opinion.

 

Ill gladly stand corrected if you can provide dps data parsers that compare sin tank in pvp dps gear compared to say maurader. You wont though because even you know youre talking out your butt from a place of sheer rage

 

 

It does not have to be comparwed to a mara but I will give you the post straight from the shadows forums.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=385688

 

That will show tanks are pullin close to DPS numbers in damage and maintaining an out of line nitigation for such damage.

[shirayuki]

I dont get why darkness healing is coming up 2160 hp for a 18000 hp tank people can use basic attack to counter almost

[Astarica]

I've actually seen it. They make pretty solid rebounders, grab the ball and predation. Solid mitigation (but nothing to write home about). They're like sorcs, they can't hold it for long (especially if there are a lot of people around them) but they can definitely serve a niche purpose with the ball.

 

Well if a Marauder gets the ball anywhere near mid field they'd be forced to burn Undying Rage immediately or die, so they'll rarely have it up for the fire pit.

 

They're pretty good at killing the enemy deep in their territory and then make the quick run, though Assassins are pretty good at that too. Mara can jump to a guy who didn't expect to be attacked, though Assassin can force pull that guy into a fire pit for the instant kill, and it's really nasty when you think you're safe holding the ball in your own territory surrounded by 5 friendlies and then burn to death.

[Scoobings]

Well, people keep pointing at DPS gear as though that has any bearing on this issue.

 

Tanks don't wear tank sets because they are TERRIBLE for PvP. It would be exactly like putting on healing gear as a DPS and expecting to perform at the top of your game.

 

Fix THAT, and you will see a lot less tanks in DPS gear. Right now, there is literally NO REASON to EVER wear a tank set in PvP, other than handicapping yourself for a challenge.

 

Maybe... I mean don't get me wrong I definitely agree that tanking stats needs to be fixed but part of the strength of the current trend with sins is that they do mega burst and they have more survivability than most classes. You'd definitely see more people wearing tank gear if it got fixed but I would bet you a coke you'd still see a lot of sins rolling dps gear. I probably still would.

[Astarica]

It does not have to be comparwed to a mara but I will give you the post straight from the shadows forums.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=385688

 

That will show tanks are pullin close to DPS numbers in damage and maintaining an out of line nitigation for such damage.

 

I don't even think the tanking set are done with the right rotation, but it's even easier with burst DPS. I've WH boots + rest BM and I can do 9600 damage in a single Force Lightning on the WZ training dummy. It should be easy to do 9600 damage in 2 GCDs if this isn't anything special. Note that the only class specific ability this depends on is Recklessness, which is 1 min 15s CD, which is generally shorter than other class's major DPS CDs.