Tank Assassins (and Shadows) are ruining PvP.

[Dee-Jay]

Among the current FotMs, Tank Assassins (and their mirrors) are undoubtedly the grossest imbalance.

 

Yet unlike Marauders with their insane damage or Powertechs with their crazy burst, Tank Assassins actually break the game to an extent.

 

Why may you ask is a tank Assassin game-breaking?

 

1. They beat any class in a 1v1, most of the time it's not even close.

 

2. That means you have to commit at least 2 players towards taking a node guarded by a tank Assassin. But even with 2 players the Assassin will survive long enough for reinforcements to arrive before a cap. 3 Players are enough to ensure a rapid kill, if the Assassin doesn't opt to vanish in order to prolong the fight.

 

3. They also have Stealth, meaning more often than not, there'll be an extra Assassin hiding in the shadows which would also need to be killed.

 

There''s just no feasible counter to that class aside from committing half your team towards finishing them off. If the enemy team has multiple tank Assassins....well good luck with anything.

 

4. They make the best ball carriers against good players (bad players get charged by Juggers), able to speed through fire while taking negligible damage, their Stealth allows them to wait anywhere and their survivability ensures that by the time they get near the enemy goal-line, their resolve bar will be full, making them immune to any CC.

 

5. Should for some reason a group of Assassins tanks ever find itself on the defensive, no problem. Just pull that pesky ball carrier into the nearest fire and lol as you grab the ball for a quick counter.

 

6. Mentioning Guard and all the other crap they have just seems unnecessary at this point.

 

While (most) other classes have to make choices, Tank Assassins have it all.

 

/rant

[Invictusthetaru]

There were 3 full BM well known sin tanks and 1 I've never seen in a recent voidstar. We won pretty handily. Not sure what the problem is. My premade was: 1 vig guardian (me), 1 shadow tank, 1 scoundrel healer, 1 DPS sage.

 

You need to snare them (I use freezing force) and then just focus on white damage attacks. Whenever one pops resilience I use sundering strike > master strike > overhead slash. By then I can continue hitting normally.

 

You also need to stun force lightning. If you keep them slowed and stun their self heals they are not as powerful as everyone thinks, although they have insane survivability for the burst they get compared to infiltration speccd assassin.

 

If you stun their force lightning all their other attacks can easily be healed through, even particle accelerated lightnings / projects.

[Astarica]

The stealth issue works both ways though. If you see one guy coming at you while defending a node, you've to assume a Tankasin is also accompanying him, just like when you see a lone defender you've to assume a Tankasin is waiting nearby. You pretty much should always assume there are at least 2 people defending a node, so either you take a Tankasin + one other, or just straight up take 3 guys. In a map like Alderran, if you counter a 2X Assassin cap with 2XAssassin of your own, this puts the enemy at a huge disadvantage, because you just defeated two of their most powerful players at no cost (you can't expect to defend against 2 guys with less than 2 guys so this is no loss to your team).

 

Really people should just get used to the fact that there is probably always an Assassin hiding in any place that feels undefended and assault assuming the defender has at least 2 guys. It is true about 95% of the time anyway.

[Astarica]

The biggest reason why Tankasins are overpowered is that even when you beat them, you still lose. Tankasin have at least double the survivality compared to most DPS classes and there's no way any Tankasin does twice the DPS of any good DPS. This means each time you killed a Tanksin, 2 other guys didn't have to die and those two guys will hurt you far more than the single Tankasin even as powerful as Tankasin are.

 

People really need to understand that the more you kill a Tankasin, the less likely you'll win against the enemy team at all because you're giving a free pass to every other DPS on that team while you focus on the Tankasin. If I lead my team in death, my team will usually win rather comfortably unless it was a blow out.

[halueryphi]

Ive got a sith assassin alt and i have to say.. this is completely true. I get more dps than a dps specced player. Its grossly OP

[EbonFade]

Outside of Huttball, i've never understood the QQ about tankassins. Give me a bunch of Marauders/Juggs/PTs in my assist train anyday of the week.

 

Yea sure, it sucks to deal with a tankasin and say an op healer destealthing in Alderaan, but then that's on your team leader to recognize that.

 

The name of the game in current wzs is who kills targets faster. Games are won or loss on whether a player drops in 5 seconds, or 3 seconds. And the warrior classes do that best.

[Xaearth]

<Wall'o'Rant>

 

So... for the TL;DR version:

 

If we leave the Assassin the ability to stay alive and kill people through attrition — yes, there aren’t many ways left for us to shorten TTK and turn PvP into a total gankfest — but over the long term, that means people will quit the game cause it’s not fun. We have very measurable statistics that tell us if people lose a certain number of Warzones in a row being tanked by a team of Assassins, then that might be part of that, and they will be not as likely to re-subscribe.

 

So now it's teams of Assassins that... just... won't... DIE!

[criminalheretic]

Agreed.

 

Can I kill a Tankasin with my Sent/Mara? Sure. Have I been killed by one? Sure as well.

 

But their DPS when compared to other tanks is wildly disproportionate. Poor DPS specd Guardians...

[arkzehhh]

Shadow's are squishy, even with CD'S up, L2Counteract them, and stop being bad.

there more or less a 1v1 class (yes they have the ability too cc etc etc...) but they should destroy you ESP with cooldown's available, stop crying.

 

Assasin tank's on the other hand, yes they need there dmg lower quite a bit.

Oh and while there at it, nerf mara/sents, i hear they need it now .

Edited April 18, 2012 by arkzehhh

[ehtom]

I agree they are insane.

[whytelight]

Among the current FotMs, Tank Assassins (and their mirrors) are undoubtedly the grossest imbalance.

 

Yet unlike Marauders with their insane damage or Powertechs with their crazy burst, Tank Assassins actually break the game to an extent.

 

Why may you ask is a tank Assassin game-breaking?

 

1. They beat any class in a 1v1, most of the time it's not even close.

 

2. That means you have to commit at least 2 players towards taking a node guarded by a tank Assassin. But even with 2 players the Assassin will survive long enough for reinforcements to arrive before a cap. 3 Players are enough to ensure a rapid kill, if the Assassin doesn't opt to vanish in order to prolong the fight.

 

3. They also have Stealth, meaning more often than not, there'll be an extra Assassin hiding in the shadows which would also need to be killed.

 

There''s just no feasible counter to that class aside from committing half your team towards finishing them off. If the enemy team has multiple tank Assassins....well good luck with anything.

 

4. They make the best ball carriers against good players (bad players get charged by Juggers), able to speed through fire while taking negligible damage, their Stealth allows them to wait anywhere and their survivability ensures that by the time they get near the enemy goal-line, their resolve bar will be full, making them immune to any CC.

 

5. Should for some reason a group of Assassins tanks ever find itself on the defensive, no problem. Just pull that pesky ball carrier into the nearest fire and lol as you grab the ball for a quick counter.

 

6. Mentioning Guard and all the other crap they have just seems unnecessary at this point.

 

While (most) other classes have to make choices, Tank Assassins have it all.

 

/rant

 

I'm a shadow,

I use the infiltration spec, but have dabbled in the tank spec as well. I would like to clear up some of your griefs.

 

1. We do not beat every class 1v1. There are good and bad players, good shadow/sin vs. a player and sure shadows/sins will win. But good vs. good it's all about who were going up against. Personally, I can kill jug/maras, but always get killed by operatives/scoundrels. Versus bounty hunters and troopers it's usually fifty fifty.

 

Generally, if the other class has a healing ability the shadow/sin will loose. As they will just out heal our damage output untill we run out of energy.

 

2. Your kinda stupid if you don't commit at least two people to stealth and attack the other door in void star. Usually you need three with one running blocker and two beating up the guards. And always expect stealth classes. Not just sins/shadows. But operatives/ scoundrels as well.

 

3. Always expect stealth classes. Countering them is all about tactics. After our openers our dps abilities are negligible. Sins/shadows are not the only stealth class. If you spec I to it jugs/maras and the rep counter parts also have some stealth ability.

 

4. Each class has their own strength in huttball. Or all the matches for that matter. Your reaction to sins being overpowered though is just QQ. I can't carry the ball for ****. Unless I have a personal guard, a pocket healer and sage/sorc. Bubble to protect me from the fire. Can't run through fire by yourself if your a sin/shadow.

 

5. We don't have pull. Those are sorcs or sages. Or power tecs or vanguards.

 

6. We only have guard if we have a combat ability active. And generally only tank shadows use it. A lot of class have guard. Just don't hit the guarded player. It's basic tactics.

 

 

As for our dps output. I am speced 8-31-0. For pure dps. I have full BM and 16k health. I'm probably the squishiest player in any Warzone match. Usually only get 150-190k damage. That's it. Good matches when I have a guildie healing me I can get upwards of 250k. Only ever got over 300k once. And that was because I have being guarded and pocket healed the whole match.

 

Sins/shadows are not omnipotent. We are actually very squishy. We are a harasser class, that's about it.

[Drudenfusz]

5. We don't have pull. Those are sorcs or sages. Or power tecs or vanguards.

Actually, we have, it's in the kinetic tree.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Drudenfusz

[whytelight]

Actually, we have, it's in the kinetic tree.

 

Really? Wow I had no idea. Thanks! My mistake then.

[Desist]

I'm a shadow,

I use the infiltration spec, but have dabbled in the tank spec as well. I would like to clear up some of your griefs.

 

1. We do not beat every class 1v1. There are good and bad players, good shadow/sin vs. a player and sure shadows/sins will win. But good vs. good it's all about who were going up against. Personally, I can kill jug/maras, but always get killed by operatives/scoundrels. Versus bounty hunters and troopers it's usually fifty fifty.

 

Generally, if the other class has a healing ability the shadow/sin will loose. As they will just out heal our damage output untill we run out of energy.

 

2. Your kinda stupid if you don't commit at least two people to stealth and attack the other door in void star. Usually you need three with one running blocker and two beating up the guards. And always expect stealth classes. Not just sins/shadows. But operatives/ scoundrels as well.

 

3. Always expect stealth classes. Countering them is all about tactics. After our openers our dps abilities are negligible. Sins/shadows are not the only stealth class. If you spec I to it jugs/maras and the rep counter parts also have some stealth ability.

 

4. Each class has their own strength in huttball. Or all the matches for that matter. Your reaction to sins being overpowered though is just QQ. I can't carry the ball for ****. Unless I have a personal guard, a pocket healer and sage/sorc. Bubble to protect me from the fire. Can't run through fire by yourself if your a sin/shadow.

 

5. We don't have pull. Those are sorcs or sages. Or power tecs or vanguards.

 

6. We only have guard if we have a combat ability active. And generally only tank shadows use it. A lot of class have guard. Just don't hit the guarded player. It's basic tactics.

 

 

As for our dps output. I am speced 8-31-0. For pure dps. I have full BM and 16k health. I'm probably the squishiest player in any Warzone match. Usually only get 150-190k damage. That's it. Good matches when I have a guildie healing me I can get upwards of 250k. Only ever got over 300k once. And that was because I have being guarded and pocket healed the whole match.

 

Sins/shadows are not omnipotent. We are actually very squishy. We are a harasser class, that's about it.

 

I don't think the OP was talking about DPS shadows/assassins. I think they're fairly balanced. Tanks aren't. My Assault Vanguard is pretty geared. Full BM with one Warhero piece. Two critcrafted items. A good tankassin will kill me before I can get 20% of their HP down. Stopping them from healing themselves is rough with the GCD how it is and only having two stuns. Stuns not working when they've got their force and tech immunity thing on, etc. I can't kite them. I can't beat them 99.9% of the time.

[Karandor]

Tanksin burst is terrible. Their CC is decent but not amazing. The problem is people are dumb and blow CDs on force shroud. The assassin then resists all their good stuff and they get pwnd. Tanksins are on my kill list after everything but tank spec juggs.

 

 

Their schtick is defending points solo until help arrives. In big fights their DPS looks nice but a ton of it is fairly ineffectual AE damage with wither (thought the debuff is great). A tank spec (hopefully Iron Fist) PT has WAY more control and is much better at shutting down a healer. Good healers will not die to a tanksin, even after 1.2.

 

Overall what you want, however, is 1 or 2 tanksins for defence, a couple of healers and a crapton of awesome DPS to tear through the enemy at breakneck speed.

 

Right now good healers and good DPS are what win WZs not tanksins.

[Neamhan]

Give me a break. DPS geared sin tanks do way too much damage in comparison to the other tank classes. They do way too much damage in relation to the survivability they get (much like mar/sents). There is a reason that sins dont spec deception/infiltration, wonder what that could be? Ill fill you in...because if you want to give up a tiny bit of burst for massive gains in survivability you spec tank and wear DPS BM gear. L2P!

 

So now that we have combat logs, how about you show some actual proof of all that?

[thetrenentss]

If anyone has ever played a 50 assassin/shadow they will note that due to the layout of wzs and the brawling style of pvp that the tank trees are the only real viable tree for pvp... yes we do good dps with good survivability ill agree with you there... i started my assassin in the intention to play deception but when ur a dps class that basicly wears tissue paper why wouldnt u want to live longer and do good dmg? Assassin tanks do good dmg but lack in the defensive cd area compared to other tanks.. if u play smart u can beat a shadow/sin tank 1v1 or have them running for help...

 

But the most important thing is pvp isnt focused around the individual.. im sorry but if u cannot lock a sin tank down and keep them either out of the fight or kill them when u have 2 people then thats just bad team play..

[Adzzy]

The biggest reason why Tankasins are overpowered is that even when you beat them, you still lose. Tankasin have at least double the survivality compared to most DPS classes and there's no way any Tankasin does twice the DPS of any good DPS. This means each time you killed a Tanksin, 2 other guys didn't have to die and those two guys will hurt you far more than the single Tankasin even as powerful as Tankasin are.

 

People really need to understand that the more you kill a Tankasin, the less likely you'll win against the enemy team at all because you're giving a free pass to every other DPS on that team while you focus on the Tankasin. If I lead my team in death, my team will usually win rather comfortably unless it was a blow out.

 

they can taunt and more importantly guard, if you ignore them, they can simply soak up damage for other players. meaning you have to effectively kill them anyway.

[vimm]

Lots of new issues and information being brought to light in this exhilerating thread.

[KBSIP]

they were unbalanced prepatch and escaped the nerf hammer because everyone was whining about healers.

[Anysao]

Get over it... Its our choice.

 

 

Just because you can't kill a certain class, doesn't me they "brake" it...

 

We get light armor. As are 200% dependent on shields. I'd it goes bad, we die.

[SajPl]

The biggest reason why Tankasins are overpowered is that even when you beat them, you still lose. Tankasin have at least double the survivality compared to most DPS classes and there's no way any Tankasin does twice the DPS of any good DPS. This means each time you killed a Tanksin, 2 other guys didn't have to die and those two guys will hurt you far more than the single Tankasin even as powerful as Tankasin are.

 

People really need to understand that the more you kill a Tankasin, the less likely you'll win against the enemy team at all because you're giving a free pass to every other DPS on that team while you focus on the Tankasin. If I lead my team in death, my team will usually win rather comfortably unless it was a blow out.

 

Me (Pyro) 560k damage Tanksin 650k damage (Voidstar 1 hour ago). If this is not OP thaen what is? Im a DPS and that is a tank with better survivability and lots of defensive cooldowns and the ability to guard. I will only mention that the tanksin would have broken 700k damage, but he was allways taunted by me (74k protection only by using taunts).

I'm not saing nerf but I am saing change a bit the way they work.

Edited April 19, 2012 by SajPl

[Adzzy]

Tanksin burst is terrible. Their CC is decent but not amazing. The problem is people are dumb and blow CDs on force shroud. The assassin then resists all their good stuff and they get pwnd. Tanksins are on my kill list after everything but tank spec juggs.

 

Tbh, the issue more than anything is wz design, yeah they're overpowered, but their cds, like marauders turn that being op, into being absurdly op because of how strong those defensive cds are for buying time.

 

On offense, their damage to survivability/utility is out of whack, however on defense, their survivability is ridiculous, look at all the utility they have, they even make sorcerers pale in comparison, and this is while having good damage and obscene survivability (certainly better than the other tanks in a wz setting, where that 45s cd is godly)

[Vaipyr]

 

A mara beats a tanksin 1v1 easily.

My Op, heal spec'd mind you, beats a tanksin 1v1 easily as well. When I spec my Op for shivving people in the yard the tanksin stands no chance.

 

Yep, tanksins are great. They're well balanced. Viable in PvP and able to hold their own when played well. As it should be. However I'll take what my IF vanguard brings to the table over a tanksin anyday. Sure, may not win handidly in 1v1's but in a group setting the IF spec'd vanguard is far better overall.

 

Tanksins better than def spec'd juggs? Yeah, cause juggs need a buff (tank spec'd ones anyways).

Tanksins better than tank spec'd (Iron Fist) Vanguards? PFFFT HEEEEEEEEEELL No. Gimme Iron Fists over shadows in my group always please.

 

*P.S. DPS whining about non-dps classes being viable in pvp in a game for once was funny, now it's just getting sad. Grow a pair facerollers. Accept you're not the be all end all of PvP like in every other game (barring uber healer madness in WoW back in the day)

 

Also:

Ideally BW either doesn't pay any attention to whiners and nerf-mongers at all, because every single class is touted as OP constantly.

Every

Single

One

 

Or they do pay attention and don't change a thing because;

Every

Single

Class

Is

*****ed

About

 

These forums and all the nerf-mongering are pathetic.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Vaipyr

[Jarlgon]

the Shadows are not ruining PvP its the balance of power, it leans heavily to the Empire side. I have played both sides and i have won all my WZ on Empire and only 3 out of 20 on Republic side