Have you seen maras/sorcs lately?

[RankorSSGS]

I am going to issue a challenge to EVERY SINGLE PERSON who thinks that Marauders/ Sentinels are OP.

 

Roll either a Marauder or a Sentinel, and level them. Learn the class, the good, the bad, the ugly. Pvp A LOT. Solo ques, a group will wreck no matter what class you are, and lead to false results. Watch how many times you die. If you take this seriously, you WILL learn that Marauders and Sentinels can be countered. You will learn the limits of what they can and cannot do. Good players will take note of the class weaknesses, baddies will get stomped because of how complicated the class is. Either way, you learn that we are not these immortal gods of utter destruction.

 

If you do not take this challenge, and educate yourself, your opinions on these forums DO NOT MATTER because you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

FYI, most Marauders and Sentinels are currently Rage/ Focus specced. Take that into account with your accusations too.

[DecanAndersen]

I am going to issue a challenge to EVERY SINGLE PERSON who thinks that Marauders/ Sentinels are OP.

 

Roll either a Marauder or a Sentinel, and level them. Learn the class, the good, the bad, the ugly. Pvp A LOT. Solo ques, a group will wreck no matter what class you are, and lead to false results. Watch how many times you die. If you take this seriously, you WILL learn that Marauders and Sentinels can be countered. You will learn the limits of what they can and cannot do. Good players will take note of the class weaknesses, baddies will get stomped because of how complicated the class is. Either way, you learn that we are not these immortal gods of utter destruction.

 

If you do not take this challenge, and educate yourself, your opinions on these forums DO NOT MATTER because you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

FYI, most Marauders and Sentinels are currently Rage/ Focus specced. Take that into account with your accusations too.

 

Amen...

[Macroecon]

Roll either a Marauder or a Sentinel, and level them. Learn the class, the good, the bad, the ugly. Pvp A LOT. Solo ques, a group will wreck no matter what class you are, and lead to false results. Watch how many times you die. If you take this seriously, you WILL learn that Marauders and Sentinels can be countered. You will learn the limits of what they can and cannot do. Good players will take note of the class weaknesses, baddies will get stomped because of how complicated the class is. Either way, you learn that we are not these immortal gods of utter destruction.

 

Mara/Sent are OP. This is quite easy to determine after having played one extensively (and yes I do PvP with a lev 50 Mara as well as other classes). However Mara/Sent will not be nerfed. In fact they are just as likely to be buffed further. Why is that? Because the metrics different people use to determine what is OP are well... different.

 

For any single player with playing experience across different classes, the class that is OP is the one that performs the best. Very simple really. The problem is that different people with different skill sets will generate different results as to which class performs best. And what about someone, such as a developer, who should be standing above all this? Well in BW's case, they have set upon average performance across the player base in determining what is OP. They do this via their ingame data collection. This has resulted in some (with hindsight) odd results.

 

In the case of Mara/Sents, the massive influx of players into those subclasses chasing the FotM has resulted in a significant dilution of player talent. The average productivity of the subclass declined and will likely continue to decline. This is why those subclasses got buffed in 1.2 and why those claiming that Mara/Sent will be a FotM are severely deluded. Mara/Sent will not be nerfed anytime soon - that subclass is insulated by a dense layer of underperforming players. Only after ranked wz makes it obvious that the top groups and player lists are dominated by Mara/Sents will BW realize that adjustment is required. That will not occur until after Season 1. Perhaps in Oct/Nov at the earliest.

 

The problem here is that BW's ingame data collection does not adjust for player quality. Thus a difficult to play, yet still objectively OP class for top players such as Mara/Sent, will get buffed in a manner that is puzzling from a game (im)balance standpoint. The reverse is also true. A class that is nerfed will tend to have many players leave it. Those that remain are often the highest skill, hardcore adherents to the class. That results in an INCREASE in average productivity even after a nerf. Which in turn results in BW deciding to nerf the class even further. This is exactly what happened to Concealment Operatives.

 

And in fact I believe that is what just happened to healers as well. Generally speaking, even prior to 1.2, you simply didn't see crappy healers in warzones. Those that were crappy gave it up rapidly. And so there was a self selection mechanism that lead towards only dedicated higher skill players remaining in the healer ranks. That resulted in higher healer productivity trends over time and thus in the eyes of BW's ingame collection stats, the need to nerf healers.

[Karkais]

Ah yes, the old "I'm not overpowered, everyone else is just bad" argument.

 

Its actually pretty valid argument considering how bad players most of the people are. But hey, devs have to take that into account and ensure everyone has fun.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Karkais

[Mathai]

playing as balance shadow, mar/sents are the easiest to kill for me. theit stealth is easily interrupted by dots, i can root them, slow, and attack from 30m, they really die fast. Try to kill a heler mercenary, it takes 5 times longer. If your teamwork is godd killing any class shouldn't be a problem.

[ptolmy]

In the case of Mara/Sents, the massive influx of players into those subclasses chasing the FotM has resulted in a significant dilution of player talent. The average productivity of the subclass declined and will likely continue to decline. This is why those subclasses got buffed in 1.2 and why those claiming that Mara/Sent will be a FotM are severely deluded. Mara/Sent will not be nerfed anytime soon - that subclass is insulated by a dense layer of underperforming players. Only after ranked wz makes it obvious that the top groups and player lists are dominated by Mara/Sents will BW realize that adjustment is required. That will not occur until after Season 1. Perhaps in Oct/Nov at the earliest.......

 

You just blew my mind

Edited April 19, 2012 by ptolmy

[EugeneYap]

Guys, they are really OP. Reps been loosing WZs for 10 hours today. Maras are so much more powerful than other classes they actualy overdamage anything atm and can tank just as well as jugs and when they take too much damage they just vanish. It's just insane, I've been trying to win 1 Wz for a whole day. Seriously, can we get some balancing done?

 

 

another terrible player with a L2P issue,

Dude get a naga/Swtor mouse and blind your keys to both mouse, keyboard and stop face-rolling.

Edited April 19, 2012 by EugeneYap

[EugeneYap]

Yawn. Maras/ sents are only overpowered when played by good players against bad/average players. L2P before running to the forums with your tail between your legs crying for a nerf.

 

ROFL if you have issue face mara/sent then you will have a real issue facing a assassin or sorc. I can pwn you while face-rolling on the keyboard while being heavily drunk and sleep deprived with a sorc.

Edited April 19, 2012 by EugeneYap

[je-s-ter]

Mara/Sent are OP. This is quite easy to determine after having played one extensively (and yes I do PvP with a lev 50 Mara as well as other classes). However Mara/Sent will not be nerfed. In fact they are just as likely to be buffed further. Why is that? Because the metrics different people use to determine what is OP are well... different.

 

For any single player with playing experience across different classes, the class that is OP is the one that performs the best. Very simple really. The problem is that different people with different skill sets will generate different results as to which class performs best. And what about someone, such as a developer, who should be standing above all this? Well in BW's case, they have set upon average performance across the player base in determining what is OP. They do this via their ingame data collection. This has resulted in some (with hindsight) odd results.

 

In the case of Mara/Sents, the massive influx of players into those subclasses chasing the FotM has resulted in a significant dilution of player talent. The average productivity of the subclass declined and will likely continue to decline. This is why those subclasses got buffed in 1.2 and why those claiming that Mara/Sent will be a FotM are severely deluded. Mara/Sent will not be nerfed anytime soon - that subclass is insulated by a dense layer of underperforming players. Only after ranked wz makes it obvious that the top groups and player lists are dominated by Mara/Sents will BW realize that adjustment is required. That will not occur until after Season 1. Perhaps in Oct/Nov at the earliest.

 

The problem here is that BW's ingame data collection does not adjust for player quality. Thus a difficult to play, yet still objectively OP class for top players such as Mara/Sent, will get buffed in a manner that is puzzling from a game (im)balance standpoint. The reverse is also true. A class that is nerfed will tend to have many players leave it. Those that remain are often the highest skill, hardcore adherents to the class. That results in an INCREASE in average productivity even after a nerf. Which in turn results in BW deciding to nerf the class even further. This is exactly what happened to Concealment Operatives.

 

And in fact I believe that is what just happened to healers as well. Generally speaking, even prior to 1.2, you simply didn't see crappy healers in warzones. Those that were crappy gave it up rapidly. And so there was a self selection mechanism that lead towards only dedicated higher skill players remaining in the healer ranks. That resulted in higher healer productivity trends over time and thus in the eyes of BW's ingame collection stats, the need to nerf healers.

 

 

Nice post, but practically useless. You have no idea how BW gathers their data, you have no idea how their internal testing goes, you basicaly have no idea about anything regarding how BW balances the classes.

THe only thing they said is that they're monitoring how the classes perform. They never said how. Your wall of text is based on assumption that is most likely wrong.

[Macroecon]

Nice post, but practically useless. You have no idea how BW gathers their data, you have no idea how their internal testing goes, you basicaly (sic) have no idea about anything regarding how BW balances the classes. THe only thing they said is that they're monitoring how the classes perform. They never said how. Your wall of text is based on assumption that is most likely wrong.

 

And your post contains no data whatsoever. No plausible explanation about the puzzling double nerf to operatives. No rationale for why healers got nerfed, and zero intellectual contribution to the discussion about Mara/Sents.

 

The bottom line is this: Mara/Sent are not going to get nerfed any time soon. You want to dispute that, then throw it down. You are just going to make it official when you get proven wrong by events.

[DecanAndersen]

The bottom line is this: Mara/Sent are not going to get nerfed any time soon. You want to dispute that, then throw it down. You are just going to make it official when you get proven wrong by events.

 

Wrong, our force leap is going to get a nerf, so we cant leap on someone that has full resolute.

No ETA though.

Edited April 19, 2012 by DecanAndersen

[Technohic]

I am still not sure if it needs it but I can tell you that mara/sents have garnered enough attention that I see a lot more being leveled in a hurry playing sub-50 PvP. (yeah, I am going to be watching this a lot as I plan to play all classes)By a lot more, I mean I have seen teams that were full mara save for a couple OP healers. Some are pretty good, others not so much; but I could have said the same thing about sorcerers before. One only need to look at what happened to them to tell that something will be changed.

 

All I can say is if you are a FOTM chaser and you think now you are going to level a mara/sent just for uber sake; I don't want to hear it when a nerf does happen. I just feel for those who have been playing classes because its the style they wanted to play rather than how "uber" they are perceived to be; cause usually I think the nerfs tend to overkill.

[Phlem]

I'll simplify it for you then... Maras/sents are so overpowered that only a really bad player would have even a remote challenge dominating every other class.

 

Still makes zero sense.

[hadoken]

Wrong, our force leap is going to get a nerf, so we cant leap on someone that has full resolute.

No ETA though.

 

I'd love to see that happen but I don't buy it unless they're intending to make ALL roots get resisted by resolve.

[DecanAndersen]

I'd love to see that happen but I don't buy it unless they're intending to make ALL roots get resisted by resolve.

 

Then all gap closers should get nerfed to resolve, on all classes.

A melee with no gap closer, is a joke...

Edited April 20, 2012 by DecanAndersen

[DecanAndersen]

I am still not sure if it needs it but I can tell you that mara/sents have garnered enough attention that I see a lot more being leveled in a hurry playing sub-50 PvP. (yeah, I am going to be watching this a lot as I plan to play all classes)By a lot more, I mean I have seen teams that were full mara save for a couple OP healers. Some are pretty good, others not so much; but I could have said the same thing about sorcerers before. One only need to look at what happened to them to tell that something will be changed.

 

All I can say is if you are a FOTM chaser and you think now you are going to level a mara/sent just for uber sake; I don't want to hear it when a nerf does happen. I just feel for those who have been playing classes because its the style they wanted to play rather than how "uber" they are perceived to be; cause usually I think the nerfs tend to overkill.

 

I play for style, not cause someones tells me its good.

Right now im leveling a shadow, (36 now), mainly with PvP, and i do NOT see the same as you.

I see a WIDE range of classes in PvP, no more than 2, maybe 3 mara and 1, maybe 2 jugs. rest are agents, bh or sorc.

So i cant agree with you on this, not on our server anyway.

[ButterStrawKid]

yea sure, a skilled player will destroy a terrible marauder. A skilled player will destroy any bad player. now put a skilled any advanced class vs a skilled marauder(except marauder vs marauder) and the marauder will win a large majority of the time.

[Technohic]

I play for style, not cause someones tells me its good.

Right now im leveling a shadow, (36 now), mainly with PvP, and i do NOT see the same as you.

I see a WIDE range of classes in PvP, no more than 2, maybe 3 mara and 1, maybe 2 jugs. rest are agents, bh or sorc.

So i cant agree with you on this, not on our server anyway.

 

Funny how it might vary. Tonight it seemed worse. I see 4 mara/sents per team greater than 50% of the time. What sucked is when you got stuck with the 4 under level 30 and the 4 over 30 would be on the other team.. I did see a mix of sorcerers, merc and OP healers with them so that gave some variety. As a sniper though; as soon as I found that sorc healer, I met the mara/sents personally to be able to count them.

[Pubix]

That's what bad maras/sents think.

 

He's right. Here is a link to a thread that explains a fraction of the marauder problem (From only a defensive standpoint)

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=423347

 

Now on an offensive standpoint marauders are clearly just as broken as they are defensively. As a Adrenaline/Rage resource class (Which counts as an "unlimited resource pool") the idea behind balancing these types of classes comes from resource generation. For example in WoW a warrior's combat charge would Cost rage instead of generate, as the non-combat charge would generate a small portion of the resource pool. After the initial charge the resource generation would come from auto-attacks and taking damage where abilities would spend the resource that you gained.

 

Marauders and Sentinels apparently don't have to abide by this basic balancing rule. Instead they can generate almost a full pool of their resource seconds after engaging in combat simply by charging in and using Zealous Strike/Battering assault. This is an incredibly bad design flaw because now within a ridiculously short time span the Marauder can simply unload a plethora of damage on the enemy without any drawbacks.

 

In addition to a much too easy to gain resource, Marauders and Sentinels also have another resource that comes pretty much free from using abilities (From Fury/Zen). This provides the Sent with extra and free utility skills without having to use their actual resource pool.

 

My suggestion would be to remove the resource gain on charge completely. Lower the resource gain on Zealous Strike/Battering assault by around three and reduce the damage of the resource dump skills Vicious Slash/Slash. (I didn't include the Combat/Carnage 31 Pt talent because it is underpowered as is). This would allow the warrior basic attack skill to actually be used often as the main resource gain.

 

Of course anybody who mains a marauder will disagree with me because they are in face first, rather than taking a step back and looking at the whole picture. For reference I am not one sided, I have a 50 Sentinel (BM), a 50 Sorcerer (BM+Rakata) and a 50 Powertech (Rakata). I have played an extensive amount in both PvP and PvE with each character as well.

Edited April 21, 2012 by Pubix

[MrRayen]

My suggestion would be to remove the resource gain on charge completely. Lower the resource gain on Zealous Strike/Battering assault by around three and reduce the damage of the resource dump skills Vicious Slash/Slash. (I didn't include the Combat/Carnage 31 Pt talent because it is underpowered as is). This would allow the warrior basic attack skill to actually be used often as the main resource gain.

 

No. This would reduce sent/mara dps to below 1k. The thing is that mara/sent "drawback" is priority rotation. That means that after initial "overload" you must press buttons in different order every time by adjusting to the almost RNG system. You can never exactly predict what rotation you will take after initial rotation. That is if you play anni/watchmen spec. Carnage / combat is little more predictable but it's drawback is small opportunity window but the spec does not rely so much on charge to generate focus.

 

Generally people object against marauders mostly because they can't play them properly and don't want others do it proper and gain "advantage" over them. Imo sents/maras were UP for a big portion of time. They got adjusted with massive buff to master strike and focus generation and by some small fixes (no focus cost on interrupt and mezz).

 

I do think all melee classes should have ~10% dps advantage over ranged class if melee is in 100% uptime. In addition I think all classes beside sent/maras should get similar priority rotation system so the skill difference between playing those chars is equalized.

 

I remember the time I needed to press around 34 buttons in 1v1 and still lose a duel against someone who use 8 buttons. Well, that won't happen anymore and deal with it. If you want balance then lets talk about balancing playing difficulty first. (Shadow tanks with 3 button spam, bh with 2 button spam, healers with 3 button spam, sorcs with 3 button spam etc.. fix that first.)

[DecanAndersen]

I think, its because people from other classes, dont know our weak spots, and how to "handle" us.

I told my buddy (Trooper, commando DPS) my weak spots, my breaking points.

And why im almost immortal after 15/10% hp, how much time ect ect.

Guess what? Now he takes down Mara like they were bugs.

EVEN after he got nerfed to death in 1,2.

 

So i think, dont flame me for saying so.

But learn to know your worst enemy, in every aspect.

Look at how they move and rotate, to quickly adjust what tree they have build, ect ect.

 

More info, is top secret, sorry peps

And sry mara/sent's, his my bro so its legit

Edited April 21, 2012 by DecanAndersen

[Pubix]

I think, its because people from other classes, dont know our weak spots, and how to "handle" us.

I told my buddy (Trooper, commando DPS) my weak spots, my breaking points.

And why im almost immortal after 15/10% hp, how much time ect ect.

Guess what? Now he takes down Mara like they were bugs.

EVEN after he got nerfed to death in 1,2.

 

So i think, dont flame me for saying so.

But learn to know your worst enemy, in every aspect.

Look at how they move and rotate, to quickly adjust what tree they have build, ect ect.

 

More info, is top secret, sorry peps

And sry mara/sent's, his my bro so its legit

 

If your friend as a commando dps is killing marauders and sentinels then those players NEED to quit. There is no excuse for a Commando taking out a marauder other than the marauder clicks, has only one hand(this is a maybe) or actually literally has down syndrome. There is no top secret way to beating marauders other than inflicting one of these three conditions on them. With a solid minute of chaining defensive cooldowns there isnt a class/spec combo that will 1v1 an equally geared/Skilled marauder. none.

 

As a class that the "rock-paper-scissors" balancing effect isn't applied we have an unnecessary amount of everything. As Annihilation we have heals and a snare built into a main ability (rupture). Many bad warriors argue that the heals from Annihilation dots aren't strong enough to matter however once gear is obtained the amount of times you crit with the dots in combat is ridiculously high, healing for 2% plus another 1% when berserk is used. The "weakness" to rage is latency. If you cant land smash then you lose. If your latency is fine and you cant land smash, uninstall. The weakness to carnage is that it takes one whole global to snare their target. I know right that's just such a cripple!

Edited April 22, 2012 by Pubix

[Dabrixmgp]

I really love seeing 3 button specialists complain about how OP marauders are.

 

lol what class only uses 3 buttons. Did I accidentally end up in the WoW forums?

[TonyJP]

Guys, they are really OP. Reps been loosing WZs for 10 hours today. Maras are so much more powerful than other classes they actualy overdamage anything atm and can tank just as well as jugs and when they take too much damage they just vanish. It's just insane, I've been trying to win 1 Wz for a whole day. Seriously, can we get some balancing done?

 

Why did you mention Sorcerers in your title? You've not mentioned anything about them. On that note, Sorcerers do not need nerfing.

[PloGreen]

And your post contains no data whatsoever. No plausible explanation about the puzzling double nerf to operatives. No rationale for why healers got nerfed, and zero intellectual contribution to the discussion about Mara/Sents.

 

The bottom line is this: Mara/Sent are not going to get nerfed any time soon. You want to dispute that, then throw it down. You are just going to make it official when you get proven wrong by events.

 

If i were a betting man I would say they will deffo get adjusted. How or what I dont know but presently, and i mean at the very top tier geared level melee across the board is stronger, and mara's stand out. You can dispute that anyway you want, that is what has happened and it is the nature of mmo's that class balance is constantly evolving. It's a tricky business.

 

We have no choice but to adapt but I honestly the current state of sages is not great right now, and the current popularity/infamy of mara/sent only amplifies that disparity.

 

But you really cannot tell how the devs make the choices they do, in all honesty if this gos like this live in rated, its just going to be 4 maras per team if pvp stays in it's current state.