The end of the arguement. Is SWTOR in decline? Can it be saved?

[seangsanders]

Yes it's in decline. No it can't be saved.

[Marrond]

Yes it's in decline. No it can't be saved.

Well it is possible but noone will do this. It would require rewrite half of the game (particulary everything that is not story related).

[hypnosys]

Have you considered that people might still like to grinding mobs than doing quest that drive you nowhere but to easy exp? Seriously, cheap grinding MMOs have more aspects of a multiplayer game than those WoW-copypastas :]

 

 

Funny thing is that games like WoW pretend to have any kind of open PVP at all. Open PVP was in Lineage 2 for example, not in those pathetic flag and factions system. If you wanted to **** someone because he was just an arsehole - you could. Without asking for a damn permision to do so.

 

If you having fun grinding and doing repetitive quests, then more power to you. For some pong might still be fun, but games have evolved since then. MMOs are not dying are evolving. SWTOR took a step back in my opinion that's all.

[AshenK]

TOR had one of the weakest launches in the history of MMO's. By that I mean you had people in both Beta and at launch saying the game was weak. The game needs more sandbox content, the game needs more then 4 classes in each faction, the game should have had better player crafting, and the open PvP should have been good.

 

And here's the thing games that are weak at launch do not recover. TOR is not going to recover from it's launch it's WoW in space and WoW offers more freedom and content then TOR offers the player. All TOR offers is a nice little story and that's it. And yes TOR will be eaten alive when Diablo 3, Secret World, Tera and Guild Wars 2 come out. All I am seeing is everyone talk about how great those games are, how they loved the beta and how those games feel great to play. TOR? I'm not hearing that.

 

At this point it's just best if they let TOR die, it's not going to recover and when the new MMO's come out the game is just going to lose anything left of it's small player base.

[Knockerz]

Have you considered that people who used to play traditional MMOs have grown older and they don't have time to grind as much any more? Also games tend to evolve, and I think adding more action combat in an MMO is not a bad idea. What TOR did was to use a very old formula, with the addition of not offering the tools other (older MMOs) offer now. For some sitting in the fleet looking for groups might be fun, for me and few others I know its not. Also the concept of dailies gets old very fast, and don't get me started on this game state of PVP (oh and where is this glorious open world PVP that was advertised before game release?)

 

You guys fell for the trap. Unless the game is specifically design for world pvp it's probably ain't gonna happen. That my experience with playing a few mmorpgs. They all advertise world pvp, but it never works out unless the game was specifically design for world pvp. The way mmorpg that are based on the wow model don't really focus on world pvp and is more of an after though. That's why I wasn't surprise when world pvp didn't really work out in swtor.

 

As for ilum, I knew it wasn't going to work the moment I read about how it worked. The only way ilum would work is if both sides are fairly balance in terms of population and that's assuming you don't have system lag, which obviously was a problem. The only way to realistically make ilum work is to instance it. Thus, you can balance both sides to be about even, but then you have people who are on more populous faction being left out if it's instance and controlled population balance for ilum. You basically have a wintergrasp, which isn't a real world pvp. A real world pvp doesn't place limits on the number of players that can participate.

[Knockerz]

If you having fun grinding and doing repetitive quests, then more power to you. For some pong might still be fun, but games have evolved since then. MMOs are not dying are evolving. SWTOR took a step back in my opinion that's all.

 

I don't think swtor took a step backwards. In wow many dailies are required due to the rep requirement for enchants/gear/schematics, but in swtor you don't really need to do any of dailies for those kinda of things. Thus, doing dailies is optional and I haven't done a single daily I though was repetitive and not fun. The only dailies I done are the space missions and pvp dailies/week quest when I feel like doing them and have time.

[Marrond]

At this point it's just best if they let TOR die, it's not going to recover and when the new MMO's come out the game is just going to lose anything left of it's small player base.

Well I hope SWTOR will still maintain some players to have fun with... mainly because I love SW universe and there's really no alternative after Sony destroyed Galaxies.

 

 

If you having fun grinding and doing repetitive quests, then more power to you. For some pong might still be fun, but games have evolved since then.

 

MMOs are not dying are evolving. SWTOR took a step back in my opinion that's all.

It's so laughable. Someone reading this would be actually believing that WoW or SWTOR doesn't have repetitive quests, or, hahahaha, no grinding. SWTOR have few very nice quests but that's all. Most of them storyline.

 

WoW-like PVP is a step back. If you want step forward by any means in MMO terms try Eve, though it's pretty old step forward right now and too complicated for most people. Games aren't evolving forward on purpose in many aspects, you know. This is why WoW was so popular and more casualised in every another patch.

Edited April 21, 2012 by Marrond

[Knockerz]

TOR had one of the weakest launches in the history of MMO's. By that I mean you had people in both Beta and at launch saying the game was weak. The game needs more sandbox content, the game needs more then 4 classes in each faction, the game should have had better player crafting, and the open PvP should have been good.

 

And here's the thing games that are weak at launch do not recover. TOR is not going to recover from it's launch it's WoW in space and WoW offers more freedom and content then TOR offers the player. All TOR offers is a nice little story and that's it. And yes TOR will be eaten alive when Diablo 3, Secret World, Tera and Guild Wars 2 come out. All I am seeing is everyone talk about how great those games are, how they loved the beta and how those games feel great to play. TOR? I'm not hearing that.

 

At this point it's just best if they let TOR die, it's not going to recover and when the new MMO's come out the game is just going to lose anything left of it's small player base.

 

I'm so tired of ex swg players wanting a more sand box game. Go play eve if you want a space game with sand box elements. I remember pvp in swg was just standing around in the starport for an hour or so until some pvp happen . Hardly what I would call worthwhile pvp. You spent more time waiting than pvping.

[Marrond]

I'm so tired of ex swg players wanting a more sand box game. Go play eve if you want a space game with sand box elements. I remember pvp in swg was just standing around in the starport for an hour or so until some pvp happen . Hardly what I would call worthwhile pvp. You spent more time waiting than pvping.

WoW players, SWG players, AnyOtherGame players - what's the diffrence? Lacks in PVP is a fact, not imaginated problem of so called anti-fans.

 

 

Btw. Galaxies would be awesome game if they only included any acceptable game mechanics. It was lacking mechanics hardly, but even then had many more possibilities. And no I'm not Galaxies fan either.

Edited April 21, 2012 by Marrond

[hypnosys]

Well I hope SWTOR will still maintain some players to have fun with... mainly because I love SW universe and there's really no alternative after Sony destroyed Galaxies.

 

 

 

It's so laughable. Someone reading this would be actually believing that WoW or SWTOR doesn't have repetitive quests, or, hahahaha, no grinding. SWTOR have few very nice quests but that's all. Most of them storyline.

 

WoW-like PVP is a step back. If you want step forward by any means in MMO terms try Eve, though it's pretty old step forward right now and too complicated for most people. Games aren't evolving forward on purpose in many aspects, you know. This is why WoW was so popular and more casualised in every another patch.

 

Not sure where I mentioned WoW, but anyways...Even WoW has evolved a lot since it was first released in 2004. Also WoW pioneered the genre, because it was the first game that had to cater to over 12 million gamers, and I think they did a pretty good job. Now WoW has not done everything right, and I am not claiming is the best MMO out there, however in terms of player numbers is in a much better shape (even though is bleeding subs) that all current MMOs on the market.

[AshenK]

I'm so tired of ex swg players wanting a more sand box game. Go play eve if you want a space game with sand box elements. I remember pvp in swg was just standing around in the starport for an hour or so until some pvp happen . Hardly what I would call worthwhile pvp. You spent more time waiting than pvping.

Oh I'm sorry but do you know how many people want SWG back? I'd bet good money that if LA decided to bring SWG back then could label it Star Wars Galaxies: Classic and if it ran the Pre-CU system that game would have more players and hold those players then TOR would.

 

Rather we are stuck with TOR that offers no long term game play. No world PvP. Hand holding the PvP that is in the game like giving rewards back to the losing team, that was a bad move on BioWare's part and it just rewards being lazy.

 

Oh and no I spent tons of times in weekend long battles with tons of my friends and faction mates. Can I say the same about TOR? No.

[Marrond]

Not sure where I mentioned WoW, but anyways...Even WoW has evolved a lot since it was first released in 2004. Also WoW pioneered the genre, because it was the first game that had to cater to over 12 million gamers, and I think they did a pretty good job. Now WoW has not done everything right, and I am not claiming is the best MMO out there, however in terms of player numbers is in a much better shape (even though is bleeding subs) that all current MMOs on the market.

You didn't have to mention WoW - SWTOR=WoW DLC... it's the freakin' same game mechanics with some subtle adjustments. Sure it lacks of lastests WoW additions but I'm certainly sure it is a good aspect of SWTOR in terms of copypasting because WoW becomes more awful every expansion. Hail to the pandas...

 

12 milion gamers- know the story about CoD series and players taste? Things that are good doesn't sell. Sell ones that are dumbproof. And WoW didn't evolve. It was taking backward steps one after another - game sold good because it's NOT complicated. Thing is 12m gamers doesn't mean that something is good (well everyone have diffrent definition of somethings being good, but apart from that) - it's accessible. It's automated. It does everything so you don't have to think much. Want to go dungeon? Sure, just click and automated system will find party for you. Just click, click, click. By the way you know how many "players" have FarmVille?

[inseeisyou]

4 months in and they are giving away a free month just to try and get people to stick around - handing out silly titles isn't even cutting it any more. Almost impossible to find a group on many servers.

 

Of course the game is in decline. I once loved this game but the honeymoon ends and they were simply too slow to respond to many major issues which were repeatedly brought up and simply met with silence such as faction balance.

[Kalfear]

I'm so tired of ex swg players wanting a more sand box game. Go play eve if you want a space game with sand box elements. I remember pvp in swg was just standing around in the starport for an hour or so until some pvp happen . Hardly what I would call worthwhile pvp. You spent more time waiting than pvping.

 

me to

 

I was in closed beta and there was not a out pouring of requests for more sandbox

Just the normal 1% posting over and over and over the same thing

 

What was being said coming outta beta was

- no end game content

- bad pvp

- no legacy

- need more socialization and interaction

- lots of complaints about UI (never mattered to me honestly but the complaints were there)

- game losses its gloss and shine once you hit 50

 

Those were the main ones I remember.

 

Mostly it was the lack of end game content (which is why people claiming they got 30 days because they found out when they leveled to 50 there was no end game content baffle me. EVERYONE was telling them this before retail even hit that there was none), UI customization, lack of socialization (game played like a solo player game).

 

Sandbox stuff was few and far between in beta and always ended up same way

 

Player 1 : SWG blah blah blah, need more sand box

Player 2-3-4-5-6-7: SWG sucked and this isnt SWG2

and on it went from there till you just learned to tune it all out.

 

I mean if you intentionally spoke to other SWG fans then I guess you could claim there was a majority asking but thats pretty closed minded to do that and then buy into it as majority request

Edited April 21, 2012 by Kalfear

[JeramieCrowe]

Don't take this the wrong way, as nothing I say should be taken personally...

 

Why do we take one man at his word because he happens to work for BioWare (he has chips on the table), but we don't take this analyst's or the player's concerns on their merits?

 

Sitting back and looking at this discussion, it just seems that people on either side pick and choose which (mis)information backs their claim and call it concrete proof of their hypothesis. It seems we give the benefit of the doubt to the guy who works for BioWare because "he would know," but I would argue that's precisely the reason we should scrutinize his information; when the captain of the Costa Concordia tells me the ship isn't sinking--despite that uneasy feeling I have--I'm running for the lifeboat.

 

All information should be taken with a grain of salt.

 

Horse's mouth and all. The journalist was spewing pure conjecture and using the data at TORdata.net incorrectly. Daniel Erickson sees the actual numbers and commented on it.

 

If it was true that subs were in decline, we know how BioWare would have handled it: they would have said nothing. Instead, they stepped up and said that subs are NOT declining. They wouldn't say that if they didn't have the cold, hard facts at their fingertips, and no, it's none of our business what those numbers are.

[Ghaiana]

me to

 

I was in closed beta and there was not a out pouring of requests for more sandbox

Just the normal 1% posting over and over and over the same thing

 

What was being said coming outta beta was

- no end game content

- bad pvp

- no legacy

- need more socialization and interaction

- lots of complaints about UI (never mattered to me honestly but the complaints were there)

- game losses its gloss and shine once you hit 50

 

Those were the main ones I remember.

 

Mostly it was the lack of end game content (which is why people claiming they got 30 days because they found out when they leveled to 50 there was no end game content baffle me. EVERYONE was telling them this before retail even hit that there was none), UI customization, lack of socialization (game played like a solo player game).

 

Sandbox stuff was few and far between in beta and always ended up same way

 

Player 1 : SWG blah blah blah, need more sand box

Player 2-3-4-5-6-7: SWG sucked and this isnt SWG2

and on it went from there till you just learned to tune it all out.

 

I mean if you intentionally spoke to other SWG fans then I guess you could claim there was a majority asking but thats pretty closed minded to do that and then buy into it as majority request

 

I only remember SWG as a game where I stood standing around waiting for something pre NGE...Post -NGE it was empty, much more empty than SWTOR. EvE was much more fun compared to SWG.

[AshenK]

me to

 

I was in closed beta and there was not a out pouring of requests for more sandbox

Just the normal 1% posting over and over and over the same thing

 

What was being said coming outta beta was

- no end game content

- bad pvp

- no legacy

- need more socialization and interaction

- lots of complaints about UI (never mattered to me honestly but the complaints were there)

- game losses its gloss and shine once you hit 50

 

Those were the main ones I remember.

 

Mostly it was the lack of end game content (which is why people claiming they got 30 days because they found out when they leveled to 50 there was no end game content baffle me. EVERYONE was telling them this before retail even hit that there was none), UI customization, lack of socialization (game played like a solo player game).

 

Sandbox stuff was few and far between in beta and always ended up same way

 

Player 1 : SWG blah blah blah, need more sand box

Player 2-3-4-5-6-7: SWG sucked and this isnt SWG2

and on it went from there till you just learned to tune it all out.

And guess what?

 

-There's still no 'working' end game content.

-There's still no 'good' pvp rather it's BioWare giving out rewards to people who didn't work to win in a Warzone.

-Legacy is one big grind.

-What interaction? No one interacts with one another due to how the game is set up.

-The UI still doesn't work right.

-It loses it way before 50, I'd say level 30 is when the game gets old.

 

And what have we gotten? Yay we got an event that if you look at the forums it's clear that people want said event removed! And chances are people wonder why the TOR forums are more about how great Diablo 3, Guild Wars 2, Tera and Secret World are.

[Kalfear]

And guess what?

 

-There's still no 'working' end game content.

-There's still no 'good' pvp rather it's BioWare giving out rewards to people who didn't work to win in a Warzone.

-Legacy is one big grind.

-What interaction? No one interacts with one another due to how the game is set up.

-The UI still doesn't work right.

-It loses it way before 50, I'd say level 30 is when the game gets old.

 

And what have we gotten? Yay we got an event that if you look at the forums it's clear that people want said event removed! And chances are people wonder why the TOR forums are more about how great Diablo 3, Guild Wars 2, Tera and Secret World are.

 

LOL Ashen, im not sticking up for EAowares TOR, see my sig

 

Im just saying that those were the main talked about issues coming outta closed beta testing

 

Sandbox and other issues were just fringe issues in the background talked about by the different minorities that wanted them. They were not representative as a major issue to the masses of testers.

[JeramieCrowe]

To me death of a MMORPG is when it can not meet the expected market! The predicted sales.

 

Well, then, TOR's doing GREAT! Because last year's predicted subs was 500k. TOR's at 1.7 million subs, and almost 3 million sales, over three times more than predicted!

 

So, by your own definition, TOR is definitely not dying.

[JeramieCrowe]

BioWare just responded two days ago saying that they have not lost any subs. And Blizzard just admitted that they're losing subs to TOR. Oh, and did you notice that Blizzard just laid off 600 employees? According to the logic I've seen in this thread, that means WoW is dying.

 

But, that's okay. The game is obviously dying because of these reasons.

Edited April 21, 2012 by JeramieCrowe

[Kalfear]

I only remember SWG as a game where I stood standing around waiting for something pre NGE...Post -NGE it was empty, much more empty than SWTOR. EvE was much more fun compared to SWG.

 

yeah I tried SWG on 4 different occations and from the end of the first month the lands got less and less and less.

 

By the time the combat upgrade came out you could play all day and never see more then 4 people on Dant

By time Village came out entire planets were empty ghost towns

 

This imaginary story the fanbois of the game like to put out about how NGE killed game is so false. The game was dead long before NGE. Heck it was dead before The Village update.

 

But they didnt beleive the released financials and stats when the game was going showing the 70% canclation rate after first month and then rising to 80% after 3 months.

Why would they beleive it now?

 

I do always laugh when they complain about "goto x and kill so many of this" quests.

Its like they removed mission terminals completely from their memory banks.

I honestly couldnt begin to count how many Mokks and Janga I killed on Dant while in those massive groups for bonus xp (but you still played solo)

[tuckerpb]

decline yes

saveablity yes, but only if bw wise up and put pve and content over pvp. every game were they put pvp over pve the pvpers complained to the point that the game is hated by everyone and ether closes or goes f2p with cash shop.

[Marrond]

But, that's okay. The game is obviously dying because of these reasons.

I have screen from december with a queue for my server arround 5 hours but what does this change? Even with event on any server hardly hit "Heavy". At the beggining of this event, day 1, there was like hundreds of people and I even had 3 minutes queue to my server. Today it's even hard to get Ops for world bossess on Tatooine. I play on most crowded server EU. Most of the time there's just dead silence. It's even hard to find someone to do flashpoint since all in the fleet just constant queue Warzones or AFK.

[JeramieCrowe]

I have screen from december with a queue for my server arround 5 hours but what does this change? Even with event on any server hardly hit "Heavy". At the beggining of this event, day 1, there was like hundreds of people and I even had 3 minutes queue to my server. Today it's even hard to get Ops for world bossess on Tatooine. I play on most crowded server EU. Most of the time there's just dead silence. It's even hard to find someone to do flashpoint since all in the fleet just constant queue Warzones or AFK.

 

That, in itself, should prove that the numbers are actually there, it's just that the players do not play concurrently during normal gameplay.

 

So, the current server transfers that BioWare has going on will fix this. Server transfers are happening as we speak, people.

[sylrian]

Well I am subscribed, 1.2 is retarded. Legacy system sucks and is full of worthless crap. Seems like people i know from wow and rift are getting alot of there guildys back from swtor. So dying, i wouldn't say that although i do see this going free to play in the future. They stranded tuns of people on low pop servers, pvp is a grindfest of warzones and endgame raiding is a joke. So I found myself wondering what is this game about? horrible pvp and horrible endgame. I guess people can collect taun taun pets idk lol I'm out of here, and thx agian bioware for stranding me on a lowpop server. May the force be with you guys come on GW2