A Healer view on 1.2 (Thoughts not QQ)

[JMCH]

I was healer from day 1, levelled up as healer, always played it.

The problem now is that Dps is out of hand now.

Healing is next to useless in WZ, unlsess you are and operative/smuggler and to some extent a commando/mec

It would really be interesting to see the real impact of the healers in the stats, the "fighting target" healing and the "rest" healing...

 

All I'd say is HoT is mostly an out of combat thing and makes the healing score climb to the roof while not really being decisive, while kolto barrier and the bubble definately are combat heal and so have a direct impact when used correctly, but the former has been severely nerfed by going from 0 to 16 heat generated.

 

Operatives are like DAoC Paladin which was the only class to have an HoT, assuming the player had some 10 fingers on each hand and could chain the same sequence continuously for hours while still playing. The healing was ridiculous, but in the long run could cumulate to an insanely high healing total, especially as there was so much degressive AoE damage. Here is the same, you can just give any ally in sight a set of kolto probes and they're receive more than decent healing over time if they're lightly injuried.

 

So, as I said earlier, if we assume all 3 healing classes take part in any team, they're ok... but there's simply no point in having 3 healers when a 3 damage dealers assist will crush through anyone in less time it takes to drop any "big" heal on the poor target.

 

That is why fights are too fast, and that is why it's near impossible to perfectly balance things, as the opposite situation with 3 healers able to heal enough to keep anyone alive while all the ennemy team try to destroy him.

 

Pre-1.2, a merc could have a real impact by healing the one he had to, or no impact by healing the wrong one, now we extremely rarely have the opportunity to change the turn of a fight, unless the ennemy team has stupid damage dealers fighting 1 on 1 all day long.

Edited April 16, 2012 by JMCH

[SpoeMeister]

I find what you said to be a rather interesting point of view on healing at least, It's basically a much different way i see things though, more to do with meta, than paces i think though. As for this whole thing im not sure i want to get into the whole could have been pug vs premade here . Sadly we know how those usually end up =(.

 

I do agree that it's much more fun and easier if you play in a pre-made. But even when pugging, I tend to talk a lot in the chat before the battle and try to suggest a way of working together. A lot of pugs lose because they lack a common direction. With just a few simple instructions, productivity can go a long way. We'd (probably) still lose but people who were ignorant at first, will have learned some form of teamplay. I sometimes even ask if there's a tank and if so, demanded to be guarded :-)

 

Just to give an example: I can't believe how many people did NOT peel when someone else was capping, they were just starting their own cap. I pugged with the same people some time and by explaining the advantages of peeling, in the end we managed to get a win. Next time, they will do it with other ignorant people, and maybe they will learn as well. This way I have also contributed.

 

TL;DR: A lot of solo queuers think they should also play solo. I try to break this cycle by laying down the law :-p this I do already in L1-49 Bracket and has given me some fine PUGpartners, in addition to my guildmates.

Edited April 16, 2012 by SpoeMeister

[Mrunlimited]

Pre patch at 650 expertise = roughly 12% healing boost

 

post patch at 1114 expertise = not even breaking 12% yet

 

they may have "buffed" operative healing, and nerfed the other 2 (all though i find that a good merc/commando healer is still boss) i feel that when 2 dps get on 1 target, i cant keep him alive while healing.. and as of lately ive changed to concealment and just focusing fire with my premade and were winning more than the normal.

 

someone on these forums said it best in a previous post.. "i feel like this game has become more of an arcade shooter than an MMO"

[Misaki-chan]

 

TL;DR: A lot of solo queuers think they should also play solo. I try to break this cycle by laying down the law :-p this I do already in L1-49 Bracket and has given me some fine PUGpartners, in addition to my guildmates.

Don't really need to use tldr...might take me a bit but i do read it all =)., But for a more on topic version of it i have been in premades and pugs since the patch, I can say from my experience I find that in both Premade and pug the damage is just a bit to high. It's much easier to handle in premades with being able to call things instantly to your friends(for cc, taunt, etc), But if you vs another premade there dps should honestly be able to ride you out so simply now.(or i feel that way in a sages case atm anyway) Hopefully i'll get to see a more defined post on pace from you later on though=).

[Cirraco]

Well thought out post.

 

As a sage I too agree we needed to be toned down prior to 1.2. I have played a number of matches post 1.2 and see a couple of things:

 

1) We are even more gear dependent. I am still at the top of the healing chart for most wz I'm in but I also have my full set of BM with crit crafted rakata relics. New healers have a tough time keeping up which is going to be frustrating to some.

 

2) We need to move even more than we did prior to 1.2. I see way too many sages trying to sit in the same spots healing which makes you an easy target. Heal, move/knockback/sprint/etc. It gives your team more time to react.

 

3) People are complaining about going down too fast when focus targetted. Well if you are the focus target you should go down fast. If people are concentrating on you then other teammates should be taking objectives. I think people will adapt and it will get better.

 

If there is one change that would be a happy medium, give back the 1s decrease on deliverance for conveyance.

[Venrale]

My friend who I always run Wzs with is a Sage healer and with me guarding him and taunting we stay alive for a long time, he has maybe 1 peice of BM gear and still puts up 350-600k per wz easy... if you cant run a premade group with a tank odds are one of the Pugs in the wz will be one, announce that your a healer and ask for them to guard you, alot of people dont know if your sage is a heals or dps untill you acctually heal them.

[Numene]

Healing tuned down = awesome. Heals were too strong, ppl weren't dying fast enough, hence the bandaid timed doors in WZs.

 

Heals should make a difference, not make or break encounters.

 

I'm ok with it being toned down. I'm not a fan of dieing in 4-5 seconds in 1 stun. I don't expect the best surviveability with people just beating on me with light armor. It just seems I'm living half as long with 1.2 due to increased dmg with expertise.

[hairlessOrphan]

Healing is a game of math, it always has been and always will be. My job is to make sure that every 1 vs 1 fight will become a 1,5 vs 1 fight. By giving my partners the added survivability, they have the opportunity to win the fight. If they can't win the fight with these advantages, they need to learn to play. In this case it is not my fault. If I can't transform them into a 1,5 player, that is my fault.

 

So even though DPS has been stronger (this I can't deny), in the end (when two DPS meet) it comes down to gear and skill. As my companions and I are full BM's... it usually comes down to the latter. If I can make sure they become 1,5 players, we win.

 

That's an interesting take, but I don't agree with it (except in open world or TDM, which there aren't any TDM WZ's, so moot point). In objective-based gameplay, healing, like anything else, is not just the straight-forward math of kill-or-be-killed. In fact, pre-1.2 more often than not the role of healing was to stall your opponent's offensive. That was when healing actually made a difference. A healer and a tank could stall a 3-man offense at a capture point long enough for reinforcements. You wouldn't kill anyone, but you could keep them from taking the objective.

 

(I feel like even pre-1.2, attacking was always about DPS anyway)

 

This is, to me, the crux of why PVP feels like a zerg-fest, now. Post-1.2, there is no progress but death. Before 1.2, you could win the TDM and lose the match. Now, they are one and the same.

[Ahhmyface]

Before you read this I would like you to know this is only my views and opinion on the current state of 1.2 pvp from a sage healers point of view nothing else.... Different classes all see things one way or another =), That and English isn't my main so please get past it if theres a few mistakes here.

 

I would like to first off point out that, Yes i do understand that healers did need to be fine tuned before 1.2. That being said were here in 1.2 now and I see healers saying things about healing not being good enough in its Current state. Needless to say, I have a problem with this. It's not that healing itself isn't good enough.... It's seeing how quickly people die even with me healing them. I see people die within 2-3 gcds when I can pump

out 800+k healing in a wz ... Well in my eyes i see no point in doing that healing if it has almost zero impact on a person being able to live. I see this patch as more of a zerg fest style game play (I thought it was a bit zergy before with the way resolve worked before to be honest now its just over the top.)

 

Reverse side is - I see a lot of people who think this patch is much better due to the fact they say people could never die before. This is where in my opinion it comes down to what style pvp you prefer, I can say I honestly don't enjoy fights at the current state of the game. I've also seen things like it takes higher skill because people can kill each other much easier now. Maybe that could be a case, but in my honest opinion if the fights were slightly longer where crowd control actually means more than is his movement impairing / stun removal cd off cooldown or not to score a kill.

 

So i guess i want to say that I sort of sit in the middle of everything...Where I believe that Pre 1.2 healers were slightly to good and did need some fine tuning in how some things worked (In my case I did think sages energy regen source was far to good) and the overall pace was most likely to slow when a healer had guards, etc. Now we have what I think is almost the polar opposite of before where people drop much to fast and DPS has become to a role where you start to think...Why even bring a healer when a dps would be of more use in his place.

 

For my final thoughts I guess i just really wanted to say I don't think 1.2's problem is really healing in itself, I believe that the (pace of combat i want to say?) is just to fast in its current state to a point where healing has to little of an effect on how fast someone dies.

 

So i just want to ask others around here if they see it this way or even how you think it is (maybe you think its perfect now?) Tell me why.

I'm curious to see real thoughts instead of just angry posts to each other

 

 

--Handchoi from wound in the force

 

I do not agree with you, but I thank you for your constructive, honest feedback. If more people treated issues like this, the community would be far better.

 

In my opinion, the issue is not heals, but the lack of tanks. Tanks are now required, like healers used to be. Once the tank population evens out, I think people will be much happier.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Ahhmyface

[Darthbarbarous]

I agree with 2 things, 1) healing needed some adjustments and 2) people do die very quickly now in 1.2.

 

I can remember my first WZ (which happened to be the new map) after 1.2 went live. I got in and ran up to 3 enemy who were beating on a teammate, they killed him before I arrived then jumped on me. Seriously, no joke I was dead within 2 seconds (and I play a tankassin), I was like ***?? So after several days of WZ, I can say I have adapted to the speed now. I have greatly adapted my playstyle too. Pre 1.2 I would run into groups debuff, cc etc , I would also generally pick a healer and guard them most of the game. After 1.2, I try to avoid running into the middle of large groups (only if needed while I go) and I constantly switch guard. I basically guard anyone that is near me being focused, and throw in the taunts as well in an attempt to keep as many alive long enough to get heals and essentially try to slow the crazy burst as much as possible. It definately helps guarding more then the healer. Before 1.2 you keep the healer alive, he/she would keep the team alive, now after 1.2 it is more like use everything possible to keep the focus target up heals/taunts/guard/cc. I have actually found being way more defensive post 1.2 = greater success.

[irdc]

In general, one healer should nullify one DPS. Previously, one healer would offset two DPS, thus essentially giving one team an additional person.

 

I am reading a lot of people saying "I can heal for 300k but I can't seem to keep people alive." I don't understand this argument. Basically, you have to calculate how much additional DPS is generated by keeping the people you are healing alive FOR LONGER THAN THEY NORMALLY WOULD. If, as a healer, you keep someone alive for an additional 5 seconds and they are DPS'ing, then you basically are giving your team an additional 5 seconds of burst damage (which people are complaining about).

Edited April 16, 2012 by irdc

[hairlessOrphan]

In general, one healer should nullify one DPS. Previously, one healer would offset two DPS, thus essentially giving one team an additional person.

 

I am reading a lot of people saying "I can heal for 300k but I can't seem to keep people alive." I don't understand this argument. Basically, you have to calculate how much additional DPS is generated by keeping the people you are healing alive FOR LONGER THAN THEY NORMALLY WOULD. If, as a healer, you keep someone alive for an additional 5 seconds and they are DPS'ing, then you basically are giving your team an additional 5 seconds of burst damage (which people are complaining about).

 

Two thoughts:

 

1) I disagree with your first argument. One healer should not mathematically "nullify" anything. A healer on a light-armor DPS teammate will not give the same return as a healer on a tank-spec heavy-armor - nor should it. The generalized argument (one player = one player) sounds good and is easy to think about, but it does not lead to valuable insight in class-based and objective-based gameplay; remember: a) the whole point of class-based gameplay is for the whole to be greater than the sum of its parts, and b) the whole point of objective-based gameplay is for there to be more avenues to success than simply playing Last Man Standing.

 

2) I disagree with your second argument. In the current (TDM-based) environment, if a healer is trading a 3-second cast for a GCD's worth of damage, it's a net loss. You may keep the DPS alive for one additional GCD, but you would be better served speccing DPS and using those two GCD's to do twice as much damage. And even this is simplifying the math; both of our arguments only hold if "damage done" is directly proportional to "amount we are winning" (which, admittedly, it is in the current environment).

 

I can also explain the amazing phenomenon (that I am personally experiencing) of "I do the same amount of healing, but it makes less difference!" It comes back to objectives. Previously, that healing total was very selectively doled out in large chunks to key players at key points - the guy with the best armor defending a capture point, or the guy with the biggest stick attacking a capture point. Now, it's being handed out in tiny chunks to the nearest targets, regardless of whether that target is doing anything particularly useful. I cast more heals in total, but each cast is helping the cause less. The key players are not staying alive longer to do more good. In other words: healing has lost much of its force-multiplying effect.

[Khoraji]

I'm ok with it being toned down. I'm not a fan of dieing in 4-5 seconds in 1 stun. I don't expect the best surviveability with people just beating on me with light armor. It just seems I'm living half as long with 1.2 due to increased dmg with expertise.

 

The increased dmg from expertise was very small. Barely 1% if I am not mistaken.

[momokan]

The increased dmg from expertise was very small. Barely 1% if I am not mistaken.

 

700 expertise pre-patch = ~12% damage bonus

1200 expertise post-patch (same gear) = ~22% damage bonus

[Bnol]

In my opinion, the issue is not heals, but the lack of tanks. Tanks are now required, like healers used to be. Once the tank population evens out, I think people will be much happier.

 

This. Lack of tanks, and tanks not doing their job properly (and instead of focusing on DPS) is the problem with TTK right now. A tank/healer combination is still strong. You just won't see that combination as much in a PUG environment, which makes pugging more frustrating for a healer and makes it more of a frag fest.

[Karma_UK]

It was alot more balanced before 1.2.

 

Interupt healer, knockback, stun etc..

 

Thing is most people don't do that its ZOMG i can't kill this healer in full BM gear.

 

Numbers are numbers just that, Sage AOE is where the high numbers come from that didn't get nerfed in 1.2

 

 

 

 

Now its like roll Marauder/Sent and mash keyboard, no teamwork required.

 

 

We are after a balance right? Or is Bioware gonna troll us with each patch.

[hairlessOrphan]

This. Lack of tanks, and tanks not doing their job properly (and instead of focusing on DPS) is the problem with TTK right now. A tank/healer combination is still strong. You just won't see that combination as much in a PUG environment, which makes pugging more frustrating for a healer and makes it more of a frag fest.

 

I'm thinking through that, and it seems unlikely that it's the only problem. It seems more likely a combination of factors: a) bad tanks, b) damage-heal ratios are out of whack, c) single-spec inflexibility.

 

My thinking is basically this: tank-heal combos might still be really good for defense, but dps-heal combos are not working for offense. Do you gain more defensively than you lose offensively when you pick up a tank and a healer instead of grabbing two DPSers? I'm not sure you do - two DPS'ers can still defend a point against two DPS'ers. In an even match (8v8), you aren't losing anything on defense relative to the baseline. In addition, tank-heal combos are mildly painful to play when the duo breaks up after the WZ and they each go solo. This is, of course, a much smaller concern. But single-specs are still driving many (if not most) players toward general-use specs, and without a clear advantage to tank-heal over dps-dps, it's not a wise decision to go that route if the only benefit is bragging rights that you could stand toe-to-toe with dps-dps duos - in WZ's - on defense.

Edited April 16, 2012 by hairlessOrphan

[irdc]

the whole point of class-based gameplay is for the whole to be greater than the sum of its parts

 

The whole point of class-based game-play is to provide enough variety to keep players interested. People have different play-styles and classes usually reflect this. Classes also allow people to understand their "roles" much better which means there is a lower learning curve.

 

and b) the whole point of objective-based gameplay is for there to be more avenues to success than simply playing Last Man Standing.

 

You are implying that healers cannot contribute to "objective-based gameplay." Again, I don't understand this argument. Healers can prevent people from capping. They can carry the huttball if they want. They can help others that carry the huttball. They can heal. They can knock people off. They have effective CC.

 

2) I disagree with your second argument. In the current (TDM-based) environment, if a healer is trading a 3-second cast for a GCD's worth of damage, it's a net loss.

 

Three seconds is an eternity. If a three-second heal is the core of your healing, then you're Going to Have a Bad time. Because of interrupts, instants and fast-healing abilities will be king in PvP. Develop your gameplay around this.

 

 

You may keep the DPS alive for one additional GCD, but you would be better served speccing DPS and using those two GCD's to do twice as much damage. And even this is simplifying the math; both of our arguments only hold if "damage done" is directly proportional to "amount we are winning" (which, admittedly, it is in the current environment).

 

Damage does not equate with winning. I am generally top DPS on whatever character I am playing. And I still lose games. Why? Because there are too many variables, class combinations and environmental factors that can lead to a loss.

 

 

The key players are not staying alive longer to do more good. In other words: healing has lost much of its force-multiplying effect.

 

Perhaps the problem is that the "key players" are mediocre and the previous system, which was healer-centric, allowed mediocrity to thrive.

 

I do have sympathy for healers that feel that they have been nerfed. No one likes to feel that way. But, I see a lot of bad healers in games. Healers that don't use the environment to their advantage. Healers that stand around waiting for someone to rescue them. Healers that don't understand that cleanse-like abilities have a very high return on investment. Try cleansing dots instead of using your 3-second heal. You'll actually "heal" for more in the long-run.

[Humancentipad]

I am not happy with the changes to expertise in 1.2, nor am I happy with the DPS specs of my Operative.

 

I was all the sudden having flashbacks of PvP in WotLK when it first dropped, and how absolutely out of control burst and dps were.

 

There's a debatable "sweet spot" for TTK (time to kill), DPS, and HPS. Before 1.2 it was skewed in favor of healing which in turn increased the TTK to annoying levels. Now, post 1.2, it's swung too far in the other direction, favoring teams primarily or exclusively composed of DPS, especially Rage Maurauders, and Snipers.

 

I haven't made the decision on whether I'm completely done with Swtor, however, I'll be taking a hiatus while I observe where the next patches take the game.

 

Edit: Fix't for clarity.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Humancentipad

[Humancentipad]

 

You are implying that healers cannot contribute to "objective-based gameplay." Again, I don't understand this argument. Healers can prevent people from capping. They can carry the huttball if they want. They can help others that carry the huttball. They can heal. They can knock people off, except operatives, who "get compensated by having stealth". They have effective CC.

 

 

Fix't.

[Qoojo]

I was hesitant to start a new thread for my question, but this one seems to cover what I wanted to ask. Since 1.2, the combat is over too fast, and deaths come far too quickly. It seems that combat is more about numbers and CC now, and healing does seem a bit pointless at times.

[hairlessOrphan]

The whole point of class-based game-play is ... Try cleansing dots instead of using your 3-second heal. You'll actually "heal" for more in the long-run.

 

In the interests of not making this a closed discussion impossible for other people to follow, I'm snipping a bit and putting my response in a single block.

 

Cleansing and instants are nice, but I don't have that many of them. Force Shield is magnificent. But its utility is drastically reduced because its limiting factor is refresh time - 20s before you can recast it on the same target. 20s is a lot more damage now than it was before, therefore: Force Shield is not as good. The only instant heal I've got is a HoT that ticks for less than a GCD's worth of white damage each GCD. So there's that. I know you're not making the argument that Force Shield every 20s + Rejuvenate ticks = successful Sage healing.

 

Everything else is a castable. As such, most of playing a Sage pre-1.s was learning to put yourself in position to cast it, because the limiting factor there was - as you noted - 3s is an eternity. Conveyance is no longer an option. 3s is even more of an eternity now than it was before. If the brunt of my healing is going to be bunny-hopping Rejuvs and Restoration (that's the cleanse, for you non-Sages), then we can both agree I'm better served DPSing.

 

I'm sure that I have room for L2P, but we've got to come up with a better plan than this.

 

My point, also, is not that healers can't contribute to objectives. It's that healers do not contribute as much via healing as equivalently geared and skilled DPS do by swinging sticks. This is a drastically different argument than the one you refuted. Yes, I can carry the Huttball - but I'm better off doing that as a DPS and killing people who are trying to stop me rather than trying - and failing - to heal through their DPS. Yes, I can heal the guy carrying the Huttball - but I'd help my team more by going DPS and bursting down the guy damaging the carrier in the first place. Yes, I have a knockback. I could have that same knockback as a DPS. Yes, I can CC. I could have that same CC as a DPS. I can heal - but I'd help more, right now, by joining the DPS race.

 

Although, admittedly, Huttball is the worst example of healers contributing in WZ's. Even pre-1.2, healing was kind of hurt in the WZ - you were always better off launching the ball forward in your death throes than trying to live long enough to cross the goal line yourself. Not sure why you picked that one.

[jhynnifer]

Healing tuned down = awesome. Heals were too strong, ppl weren't dying fast enough, hence the bandaid timed doors in WZs.

 

Heals should make a difference, not make or break encounters.

 

 

Last night I started actually looking at numbers. Now mind you, healers are respeccing into dps at this point because healing is so ineffectual.

 

Now don't mistake that statement for anything other that what it is. Yes, our healing numbers are roughly the same +/-. I can still easily push out 400k healing in a voidstar as a merc, that's not the issue. The issue being that in that warzone, once you add up all the damage taken... its well over 1.2 million. So, what you're telling me is that in a warzone where the majority of my movement is from the east to west doors, I am only capable of healing 1/3rd of the damage. Now that doesn't mean that I can stand around spamming dps buttons and making a difference there. Not at all. I'm basically running, hiding, losing as much as possible because not only are my heals nerfed (thanks for that expertise formula, its so pro /sarcasm), but the two marauders pushing my poop in are more effective than ever. They don't even have to lock me down. 2 Stun + 2 ravage and I'm done.

 

 

So its not that the majority of healers think we should go back to pre 1.2, its that we believe there is an extremely heavy imbalance in healing vs damage right now.

[irdc]

.

3s is even more of an eternity now than it was before. If the brunt of my healing is going to be bunny-hopping Rejuvs and Restoration (that's the cleanse, for you non-Sages), then we can both agree I'm better served DPSing.

 

Perhaps you should stack alacrity, then. That's always an option and it IS one that Bioware uses to balance classes. No one uses alacrity. I personally would try adding a ton of alacrity and seeing if that works.

 

Sure, you're going to be sacrificing power / surge / critical, but those might not be the most advantageous in PvP. Try experimenting.

 

I can heal - but I'd help more, right now, by joining the DPS race.

 

Well, if that is the way you feel, then by all means, go DPS. The point is to have fun!

[jayfourc]

It's not that healing itself isn't good enough.... It's seeing how quickly people die even with me healing them. I see people die within 2-3 gcds when I can pump

out 800+k healing in a wz ... Well in my eyes i see no point in doing that healing if it has almost zero impact on a person being able to live.

 

 

Random thoughts:

 

If you're pumping out 800K+ heals obviously it's having an impact. They would be dying in 1 GCD if you weren't. If they're going down that quickly they're being focus fired and they should go down. One healer should not be able to hold off 3 DPS. I agree that the pendulum seems to have swung a little too far though and needs to go back a bit.

 

800K+ is pre 1.2 right? There's no way any one stays alive long enough now for you to put out those kind of numbers now.

 

Also, to and too are two different words.