Nerf Denova?

[tiptaptoe]

The healer nerfs were insignificant. I healed as a sorc for all the encounters on 8 hard mode on the PTS, and I didn't notice anything meaningful other than I had to manage my force better.

 

Also ran with two Sorc healers for all fights, and it hasnt been an issue, just as you say better force management required from players.

Edited April 16, 2012 by tiptaptoe

[krinaman]

Let's try something:

Let's say that yes, raids are to hard right now so we nerf it down a bit or a lot depending on your viewpoint. We get one of the guilds or pugs or whatever it is to try it.

 

"Well we beat Story mode pretty easily, let's try hard mode"

 

They get *********** DESTROYED.

 

They come back here and state, hard mode is to hard it needs to be easier.

 

Since story-mode isn't difficult enough anymore to challenge the player and make him think and react to prepare him or her for hard-mode Bioware has a few choices:

 

A: Make story-mode harder -> the guilds go back to not finishing story-mode and quit or complain or whatever

 

B: Ignore them -> .... actually I don't see a downside to this one

 

C: Nerf hard-mode down so it is doable for the "Casual Player" -> and soon to follow nerfing Nightmare-mode and so on and so forth.

 

tl;dr: Game is easy enough with some effort, make it any easier and it will not require any effort.

 

So your argument is everything should be made for "hardcores" because if you give anything at all to "casuals" they will want more?

 

I guess the "hardcores" are a good example of that, wanting every level of the raid for themselves.

 

But whatever, we all know who is going to "win" this. The only question is will just story mode get nerfed or will it be a complete across the board nerf to all levels.

[hawkeyesfan]

What I believe is that content should be challenging not that 90% of the population should go play something else. In fact some content in many other MMOs before raiding DID require you to die a bunch of times to complete it, or to figure out what you were doing wrong. It taught you how to properly play your class and to pay attention to what is going on. That is gone now, allowing people to faceroll their way to 50, or for some who can't even manage that to call a level 50 friend in to do it for them while they autofollow, and then walk into a tier 2 raid expecting to do the same. If it doesn't require some effort what is the point of having it there anyway? If, spending a half hour to an hour learning what is supposed to be the one of the harder encounters in a game is to much for people where the **** is it going to end?

 

Let's try something:

Let's say that yes, raids are to hard right now so we nerf it down a bit or a lot depending on your viewpoint. We get one of the guilds or pugs or whatever it is to try it.

 

"Well we beat Story mode pretty easily, let's try hard mode"

 

They get *********** DESTROYED.

 

They come back here and state, hard mode is to hard it needs to be easier.

 

Since story-mode isn't difficult enough anymore to challenge the player and make him think and react to prepare him or her for hard-mode Bioware has a few choices:

 

A: Make story-mode harder -> the guilds go back to not finishing story-mode and quit or complain or whatever

 

B: Ignore them -> .... actually I don't see a downside to this one

 

C: Nerf hard-mode down so it is doable for the "Casual Player" -> and soon to follow nerfing Nightmare-mode and so on and so forth.

 

tl;dr: Game is easy enough with some effort, make it any easier and it will not require any effort.

 

This won't happen. I imagine < 1% of people in general post on forums. So the people complaining about content being too easy were more serious raiders. The casual people are not gonna post here very often for 2 reasons. 1 They are too busy playing and enjoying the game and 2 why open yourself to forum ridicule from morons with bad grammar who cannot tell the difference between to and too, your and you're, and their they're and there.

 

No I imagine the casuals were enjoying normal EV/KP just fine. It was/is a few hour escape for them where they went in and were able to clear content and feel like a raider. If they venture into HMs and then complain then I completely agree witht the L2P better. But I saw very few posts that were..."Hi I'm super casual Steve and my guild went into HMs last night after weeks and weeks of clearing normal modes. These are too hard please nerf."

[Ruuprect]

It is awsome that it is hard. It takes more than 1 try to complete it, and trying to figure out the bosses is awsome.

 

Unfortunately the bads will complain that they cant kill the first boss and it will get nerfed. I am going to enjoy it while it lasts, it took us 2 hours to get to the 3rd boss, this is still too easy but it is much more fun than facerolling SM/HM EV/KP.

[Kerotan]

The raid is easy. My guild has gone in with no knowledge of the raid at all on HM and we are pretty much 3/4. More than likely would be cleared if we could have raided every day from release.

 

Players are just bad and cba figured out your not meant to do X, and its not a simple tank and spank fights.

 

Do not nerf Denova or I will quit the game.

[Remulan]

I'm pretty sure there is a large difference between 8 man story mode and 16 man story mode. 16 man is tuned pretty tightly for the enrage timer, even for full rakata raids. I have a feeling all the people saying that they easily beat the bosses after a few attempts were doing it on 8 man.

[Tormentist]

Lol this was already nerfed when it was on PTS.

 

Leave it as is please..

[Glorionn]

Yeah 8 man was one shottable with bare information on the fight. Havnt tried 16 man yet.

[hawkeyesfan]

The raid is easy. My guild has gone in with no knowledge of the raid at all on HM and we are pretty much 3/4. More than likely would be cleared if we could have raided every day from release.

 

Players are just bad and cba figured out your not meant to do X, and its not a simple tank and spank fights.

 

Do not nerf Denova or I will quit the game.

 

Op said story mode too difficult for the target audience. Not HMs. I think too many people are seeing these posts and either assume people are meaning HMs. Or HM level raiders are just sour grapes and don't want casuals to have their fun too. The same thing happened with LFR in WoW. That passed when people realized that normal mode WoW raids are still for regular guilds and HMs are for progression guilds. Same thing here people.

 

But thanks for coming in late in the post and assuming you know the context of the whole post...

[Maestrodomus]

Not to be a douche, but if you think the first encounter is tough wait till you get to the second one. We're running in 16, but it's still pretty tough on 8 form what I gather.

[BIG_M]

it really wasn't that hard of a fight our guild went in there with no knowledge of the bosses due to us wanting to figure stuff out as we went on our first attempt we got them to 69% each which wasn't a bad effort we got better at telling what was going to happen next after a couple wipes after that constantly improving each we got to 50% we then decided to change the positioning of the bosses so that the melee dps and off-tank had more room to move when toth did his bezerk on our first attempt with new positioning we almost had it but killed zorn to fast and toth still had 30% health left when he soft enraged got him down to 19% before wipe, 2nd time we got them both down to 3 and 15% and on our 3rd go we nailed it without a hitch all members except one had columi gear or better the other one was in a mix of champion and battlemaster setup was sorc and operative healer dps were deception assassin marauder a mercenary and a sniper with a assassin tank and powetech off tank.

[sbutehorn]

I don't like how the OP is speaking for what he presumes is the majority. I feel he is describing and speaking for me without speaking the truth.

 

I am a casual player. I raid 2 times per week. I have 1 level 50 sorc healer with a mix of Rakatta and Columni. I have not beat HM KP yet, we are working on it. We have beat HM EV but just recently.

 

That being said we went into Story Mode EC yesterday to try the new content. We wiped over and over as tanks learned to transition and healers learned the new healing necessary.

 

We were able to kill the first boss in there and our vent had a rousing cheer. There is satisfaction from completing a challenge. I don't want it handed to me, I want to have to fight for it and be good. Even as casual I take pride in succeeding and overcoming challenge.

 

I would ask BW to leave it alone and let us learn from it. This is way too new to be calling for nerfs. If it is overtuned we will know in the months to come but try and learn it first.

Edited April 16, 2012 by sbutehorn

[DamenX]

I am not so certain. If only 10% of players or less are able to do the new ops content (and Flashpoint for that matter) then it likely will be re-tuned to something more do-able by the average player. After all the average player is the majority of the Bioware SWTOR paying customers. Way it goes for better or worst usually.

 

I am so sick of people using this excuse to why the content should be nerfed. There are 4 bosses in the new instance. So basically just because casual players cant go in there and faceroll 4/4 your first night the content is to hard for the casual player base? Thats a bunch of ********. If poeple are having issues take a little time out to do something called strategize. There are combat logs now for a reason. Find out what is causing the wipes and work on fixing it. This content is on its firast week and its probably gonna be expected to last imo at least 4 months.

My guild went in there and wiped on him as well we to are a casual raid guild. We raid fri and sunday for 3 hours a night and i'm glad we wiped to him. I was'nt expecting to clear it i was just happy for a challenge in which required some team work.

I cant beleieve after a few days of this being released poeple are already crying for f'n nerfs. That is beyong stupid.

People act like everything should just be handed to them just for logging in. Than a month later they wil be crying how there is nothing to do anymore.

Edited April 16, 2012 by DamenX

[DeeMoneyBig]

The loot in EC Story mode is all available by some other means in SWTOR. Hard mode KP, EV and Dailies are all much easier than EC, which is great. It's not as if you are all locked out of some sort of loot drop because you think it's too hard.

 

If you take the time to learn the mechanics, you will beat it.

 

Keep it as-is...

[_droider_]

The loot in EC Story mode is all available by some other means in SWTOR. Hard mode KP, EV and Dailies are all much easier than EC, which is great. It's not as if you are all locked out of some sort of loot drop because you think it's too hard.

 

If you take the time to learn the mechanics, you will beat it.

 

Keep it as-is...

 

No greater satisfaction in an MMO than beating something that takes perfect execution by all people involved, and only the top 10% can claim success.

 

Best advice is to take your best 8 and perfect the strategy before attempting 16 man. I know mechanics aren't exactly the same, but it's less risk (more people = higher chance for a mistake).

 

My former guild (that has both NMM titles) took down the first bosses after a few attempts on 16 story. We wiped at least 6 times so far now on the guns. Damn DPS and those shield generators... Best attempt was 10% remaining and a healer made a careless mistake and let a tank die. We could have saved a lot of time and just ran our best 8. Either way, strategy has been perfected and now we wait to have a mistake-free run.

[rizBRAH]

Most contrent pre 1.2 was too easy, im all for the final op being very difficult.. if its all down in a few tries whats there to try and achieve?

 

Game gets boring fast with nothing to progress to.

[janeping]

EC is next tier from KP/EV. It drops Rakata gear in story mode. How do you expect it to be "easy". You can't just bring anyone in and expect to clear it in couple of tries. My guild got the first boss(es) down the first night we were in there. None of us had done the fight on PTS, we just read it online then go from there. It was a fun fight. Once we figured out the mechanism, it's not bad at all. We only raid couple of nights per week as well. I wouldn't say casual players can't progress in EC. More like fail players can't. I rather have some challenge than have everything hand to me. What's the fun in that if you don't try to break your head while learning a new fight? Everquest 72 man raid 6 days a week anyone? Sometimes I do miss the difficulty of those raids! Edited April 16, 2012 by janeping

[Nessirin]

Depends on what mode you're doing it on.

 

Denova 16 man is like (at least) hardmode 8 man. After our 16, we got a rag-tag group of 8, and steamrolled that place. I think the 16 man story needs a little adjustment, but 8 man is already easy.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Nessirin

[Smaltie]

I'm actually really enjoying EC, the enrage timers are a little close on Minesweeper until you get the hang of it and the time to take the bomb guys down on the final fight seems a bit short if a DPS is slacking off bu overall it's awesome.

 

We walked in on Friday night for the first time, no reading of strats just to get a feel for the place, down the first boss encounter on SM on the second attempt in Columi/Rakata gear, Sorc and Op healer.

 

These fights are a complete pain in the arse until you get the mechanics then they are fairly easy but they don't really forgive a slip up which is awesome! Minesweeper can go suck a fat one though, that's going to be annoying every week -_-

 

Also just to specify, we are a casual guild as well, raid usually 2 nights a week (maybe 3 now we have 3 Operations - Although we do like progression)

Edited April 17, 2012 by Smaltie

[Ruuprect]

It either needs nerfed or raiding for "casuals" is over in this game.

 

Not everyone considers wiping all night trying to learn the dance steps as fun. Many will come into this place wipe a half a dozen times and just quit raiding.

 

Then when it's down to 5% of the population raiding it won't make sense to devote a bunch of devs to that content.

 

What is wrong with people. Do you want to walk in and one shot it with no effort, wiping all hight is fun. How else will you learn how to do it?

 

Ugh, cant believe so many people like easy mode crap.

[Odarim]

Absolutely not! If anything it is still too easy. If a casual raiding guild can clear it in I'd say the 1st month then it is too easy.

 

They are going in the right direction, but we of actual skill still require more of a challenge.

[_Zorth_]

Means you don't understand the mechanics. Your group doesn't understand the tank swap, or the obvious avoidance of big red circles on ground. It's not supposed ot be able to be cleared in your first few attempts,

 

Tier 2 content is not "Kill everything on first few attempts", nor is it "Learn all tac s from a strategy guide". You actually have to die, see what's kiling you then improve on it over and over until you can kill the boss.

 

The only fail on BW's part here is not to make a difficulty called "Newbies" that can always be cleared in green gear just for the story no matter what tier it is it'll always drop teh same gear. Tionese.

[rymah]

Downing new content is much more satisfying if you work your way through the encounter with minimal information and form a successful strategy. My guild took a run at story mode Denova last weekend and it took the better part of 4 hours to learn and execute a successful strategy to beat Toth and Zorn, and it felt glorious. Next time I know we'll be much better and more prepared, and then it will be the same for the next encounter. Challenging raids can make bad raiders good, and good raiders great, but only if they give the effort to adapt and push themselves to perform better...if they don't then you get lazy ezmode raiders. Bottom line: Don't nerf this Operation, it's only going to be bad in the long run.

[Lokina]

To hard for story mode.

end.

[arnoldlol]

There's plenty of info out there that will show you how to kill the boss. I think it's good people are finding it to be a challenge, it should be. It JUST CAME OUT. Casuals shouldn't get faceroll content just because they play less than the rest of raiders. If you're not raiding for the challenge then why raid at all?