So..... What's with all the dislike for Revan?

[Darth_Solrac]

\Aaaand this is the point where this conversation becomes pointless. I effectively disagree with you on every facet of the Star Wars universe, from the merit of George Lucas' ideas, to characterization of Revan, to the nature of the Force itself. Neither of us is going to win over the other.

 

I'm starting to see the same....

[Invictos]

Ah, you & I have totally different views of real. Revan made the decision to use those tactics himself. Cannon also has him disagreeing strongly with the Jedi Council. His passion for engaging the Mandalorians, be it even to save the Republic, screamed of Dark Side, that was indeed ALL HIM. Do not virtually ALL Jedi who disagree with the council so strongly end up 'falling'?

 

It's also said that those tactics did indeed start turning Revan & Malak, on the battlefields themselves. They especially grew to despise any form of weakness & indecisiveness. Then yes, he went to Malachor V to turn totally. But they were still them. They knew what they were doing, were they came from, & did it anyway.

 

Yes, Revan was arrogant and self-righteous (in his opposition to the Jedi's non-interference policy), which -- in combination with the harsh realities of war -- caused him to fall. He thought he was above falling, believed that he was a pragmatist, and by extension eventually came to believe that the ends justify the means.

 

All of the above just goes to show that the Dark Side is corruption. It's not just a corrupting influence, because fallen Jedi actually become so rotten that not only their methods, but their goals and their ideals shift dramatically, even reverse themselves completely. Witness Bastila, for example: after Malak tortures her, she joins his cause, so overcome with the nihilism of the Dark Side that she not only gives up her own fight, but switches sides in it.

 

The Dark Side changes people. Although there are numerous examples of Sith (and fallen Jedi) redeeming themselves, they are effectively different individuals while under the Dark Side's influence. Obi Wan wasn't just whistling dixie when he told Luke that Anakin Skywalker was dead, even though Vader still drew (laborious) breath.

 

There's an understandable assumption that the Dark must be balanced by the Light, as if the Force were a seesaw counterbalanced on either end, or a coin of which there must be two faces (sides). But the Force is more accurately described as an organism, for which balance implies health, and imbalance implies sickness. The very term, "Light Side," is only (IIRC) used sparingly in the movies, and only as a convenient rhetorical contrast to the Dark Side. The Jedi in high canon much more often refer simply to The Force as a wise and benevolent energy. They don't qualify that term because it needs no qualification: the Dark Side isn't a natural aspect of the Force.

 

"May the Force be with you." Not, "May the good part of the Force be with you." Not, "May the Force be with you, and if you get screwed by the Dark Side of it then tough luck."

Edited April 16, 2012 by Invictos

[Rayla_Felana]

Yes, Revan was arrogant and self-righteous (in his opposition to the Jedi's non-interference policy), which -- in combination with the harsh realities of war -- caused him to fall. He thought he was above falling, believed that he was a pragmatist, and by extension eventually came to believe that the ends justify the means.

 

All of the above just goes to show that the Dark Side is corruption. It's not just a corrupting influence, because fallen Jedi actually become so rotten that not only their methods, but their goals and their ideals shift dramatically, even reverse themselves completely. Witness Bastila, for example: after Malak tortures her, she joins his cause, so overcome with the nihilism of the Dark Side that she not only gives up her own fight, but switches sides in it.

 

The Dark Side changes people. Although there are numerous examples of Sith (and fallen Jedi) redeeming themselves, they are effectively different individuals while under the Dark Side's influence. Obi Wan wasn't just whistling dixie when he told Luke that Anakin Skywalker was dead, even though Vader still drew (laborious) breath.

 

There's an understandable assumption that the Dark must be balanced by the Light, as if the Force were a seesaw counterbalanced on either end, or a coin of which there must be two faces (sides). But the Force is more accurately described as an organism, for which balance implies health, and imbalance implies sickness. The very term, "Light Side," is only (IIRC) used sparingly in the movies, and only as a convenient rhetorical contrast to the Dark Side. The Jedi in high canon much more often refer simply to The Force as a wise and benevolent energy. They don't qualify that term because it needs no qualification: the Dark Side isn't a natural aspect of the Force.

 

"May the Force be with you." Not, "May the good part of the Force be with you." Not, "May the Force be with you, and if you get screwed by the Dark Side of it then tough luck."

 

Finally, fully canonical statements are far to rare in this section.

[Selenial]

The first time she used it that we know of was at Malachor V, but she had been trained to use it by Vima Sunrider beforehand.

 

Later she comes full circle and uses it to sever Traya from the Force to a degree where she was no threat.

 

That's bs and you know it. Traya DIED at malachacor V and meetra surik cut her self off unconsciously

[Velaran]

I am not pointing out an opinion, I am pointing out the canonical facts that Lucas placed, which fully explained the Dark Side, that is it simple.

 

"The Dark Side corrupts, it is unstable power, and power used without responsibility inevitably leads to corruption." - Lucas, RotS commentary.

 

Is that a direct quote? If it is, then it brings up an interesting question: If only the irresponsible use of the Dark Side leads to corruption, then is it possible for it to be used responsibly? Like, say, Revan prior to his imprisonment by the Emperor? Or even a good Sith in this game?

[Invictos]

Also, Obi Wan, Windu, etc, ALL had cocky streaks within them, especially how Obi liked to troll his opponents, lol. They never fell. Are they gonna fall? As Force Ghosts maybe? Do you know something I don't?

 

I don't think anyone would argue that the Jedi were perfectly pure. In fact, I think it's clear that the Jedi themselves were prone to arrogance, or at least a self-satisfied short-sightedness that eventually led to (or facilitated) Palpatine's rise.

 

Then again, their perceptions were also said to be (canonically) clouded by Palpatine.

 

Look, you favor the Light Side/Jedi/Republic, it's kinda obvious, especially in your sig. I tend to favor the Dark Side/Sith/Empire. So it makes sense our views on this matter are consistently, polar opposites, but yea. Only one who favors the LS so could view capture, imprisonment, & mind **** brainwashing by the Jedi Council as returning to his 'real' self....

 

Not seeing any partisanship here. I can't speak for anyone but myself, but it isn't a matter of favoring the Jedi or disparaging the Sith; frankly I've always thought the Empire (the one in the movies, anyway) was cooler than the Republic, but I also believe that the arc of the story (stories) describes an unusually clear-cut moral division. Some would even say that Star Wars morality is so over-simplified as to be uninteresting.

 

We can certainly debate whether Lucas and company portrayed that moral division successfully, but it seems pretty clear that Dark Siders are supposed to be unequivocally evil.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Invictos

[Darth_Solrac]

Yes, Revan was arrogant and self-righteous (in his opposition to the Jedi's non-interference policy), which -- in combination with the harsh realities of war -- caused him to fall. He thought he was above falling, believed that he was a pragmatist, and by extension eventually came to believe that the ends justify the means.

 

All of the above just goes to show that the Dark Side is corruption. It's not just a corrupting influence, because fallen Jedi actually become so rotten that not only their methods, but their goals and their ideals shift dramatically, even reverse themselves completely. Witness Bastila, for example: after Malak tortures her, she joins his cause, so overcome with the nihilism of the Dark Side that she not only gives up her own fight, but switches sides in it.

 

The Dark Side changes people. Although there are numerous examples of Sith (and fallen Jedi) redeeming themselves, they are effectively different individuals while under the Dark Side's influence. Obi Wan wasn't just whistling dixie when he told Luke that Anakin Skywalker was dead, even though Vader still drew (laborious) breath.

 

There's an understandable assumption that the Dark must be balanced by the Light, as if the Force were a seesaw counterbalanced on either end, or a coin of which there must be two faces (sides). But the Force is more accurately described as an organism, for which balance implies health, and imbalance implies sickness. The very term, "Light Side," is only (IIRC) used sparingly in the movies, and only as a convenient rhetorical contrast to the Dark Side. The Jedi in high canon much more often refer simply to The Force as a wise and benevolent energy. They don't qualify that term because it needs no qualification: the Dark Side isn't a natural aspect of the Force.

 

"May the Force be with you." Not, "May the good part of the Force be with you." Not, "May the Force be with you, and if you get screwed by the Dark Side of it then tough luck."

 

Translation: You think the Jedi are saints.

 

REAL: THEY'RE NOT. The Jedi are also self serving, plotting, semi celebrate hypocrites who LOVE to scapegoat. They've happily run the Republic before.

 

They sat back like arrogant, ALSO self righteous, cowards in a peaceful high rise as COUNTLESS innocents (CIVILIANS) were slaughtered by their underlings, & the Republic in both The Great Hyperspace, & Mandalorian Wars.

 

I can go on. Really tho, I'd rather be 'corrupted' by my own emotions, passion, love, etc. than try to pretend I have none or virtually none at all.

[Selenial]

I am not pointing out an opinion, I am pointing out the canonical facts that Lucas placed, which fully explained the Dark Side, that is it simple.

 

"The Dark Side corrupts, it is unstable power, and power used without responsibility inevitably leads to corruption." - Lucas, RotS commentary.

 

Lucas is pointless, Lucas has no standing in star wars lore anymore. He may have come up with the original movies but that does NOT mean everything he says is fact.... At least nit from our perspective, the perspective of the fsns

[Fyurii]

The first time she used it that we know of was at Malachor V, but she had been trained to use it by Vima Sunrider beforehand.

 

Later she comes full circle and uses it to sever Traya from the Force to a degree where she was no threat.

 

Funny thing, she should be referred to as Vima-Da-Boda, like her mother is now Vima-Da-Boda... The whole Sunrider name controversy... Was actually looking forward to the now cancelled book that was going to feature them both in it.

[Rayla_Felana]

That's bs and you know it. Traya DIED at malachacor V and meetra surik cut her self off unconsciously

 

You have misinterpreted my statement, Traya was severed from the force, she then started dying, her wounds were to severe, then she told Surik everything she knew and died.

 

Yes I know, that was exactly what I meant.

[Aximand]

Translation: You think the Jedi are saints.

 

REAL: THEY'RE NOT. The Jedi are also self serving, plotting, semi celebrate hypocrites who LOVE to scapegoat. They've happily run the Republic before.

 

They sat back like arrogant, ALSO self righteous, cowards in a peaceful high rise as COUNTLESS innocents (CIVILIANS) were slaughtered by their underlings, & the Republic in both The Great Hyperspace, & Mandalorian Wars.

 

I can go on. Really tho, I'd rather be 'corrupted' by my own emotions, passion, love, etc. than try to pretend I have none or virtually none at all.

 

Translation: I have no freaking idea what I'm talking about so I'll just respond by attacking other poster's credibility.

[Darth_Solrac]

We can certainly debate whether Lucas and company portrayed that moral division successfully, but it seems pretty clear that Dark Siders are supposed to be unequivocally evil.

 

REALLY? VADER was pretty strongly immersed in the Dark Side. Yet he still loved his son. What bout my Sorc? He shows kindness, gratitude, & mercy occasionally when respected.

 

Shades of grey man....

[Rayla_Felana]

Lucas is pointless, Lucas has no standing in star wars lore anymore. He may have come up with the original movies but that does NOT mean everything he says is fact.... At least nit from our perspective, the perspective of the fsns

 

He owns the IP and that means his statements are word of god class canon, that is how the Canonical system works, whether or not this is a good thing, is up to you.

[Selenial]

He owns the IP and that means his statements are word of god class canon, that is how the Canonical system works, whether or not this is a good thing, is up to you.

 

Yes but people tend not to listen to his commentary, if the canon comes in the form of a film tv show book or anything else then it's fine, his commentary has little to no value anywhere in an argument.... Trust me

[Rayla_Felana]

Is that a direct quote? If it is, then it brings up an interesting question: If only the irresponsible use of the Dark Side leads to corruption, then is it possible for it to be used responsibly? Like, say, Revan prior to his imprisonment by the Emperor? Or even a good Sith in this game?

 

The Dark Side can be, in varying degrees controlled, and not be used in a brutish manner, but the only other way the Dark Side is used is in a calculating and deceitful way, regardless of path taken the goal is always personal power, it's a core component to the Dark Side.

[Selenial]

You have misinterpreted my statement, Traya was severed from the force, she then started dying, her wounds were to severe, then she told Surik everything she knew and died.

 

Yes I know, that was exactly what I meant.

 

How could it be exactly what u meamt if it contradicts completely... U said she. Was taught it, and i said she did it unconsiously, if your taught it then u do it consciously, on purpose... And u mind telling me where it wws stated traya was severed from the force? Never heard that before

[Rayla_Felana]

Yes but people tend not to listen to his commentary, if the canon comes in the form of a film tv show book or anything else then it's fine, his commentary has little to no value anywhere in an argument.... Trust me

 

Well it does as far as canon goes.

 

A perfect example is in the Revenge of the Sith extras on the DVD, he finally confirmed in 'The Chosen One' that Anakin always is and always was the chosen one, and that is the full canonical fact of the matter and has been since.

[Invictos]

Translation: You think the Jedi are saints.

 

REAL: THEY'RE NOT. The Jedi are also self serving, plotting, semi celebrate hypocrites who LOVE to scapegoat. They've happily run the Republic before.

 

They sat back like arrogant, ALSO self righteous, cowards in a peaceful high rise as COUNTLESS innocents (CIVILIANS) were slaughtered by their underlings, & the Republic in both The Great Hyperspace, & Mandalorian Wars.

 

I can go on. Really tho, I'd rather be 'corrupted' by my own emotions, passion, love, etc. than try to pretend I have none or virtually none at all.

 

No, the Jedi aren't saints. You're drawing a false dichotomy, which is perhaps understandable because Lucas created a black-and-white morality system and then tried to shoe-horn a nuanced political-intrigue plot into that context.

 

But Lucas' missteps aside, we can take a combination of the canon lore and his statements to construct a plausible model that includes shades of grey: the Jedi aren't saints, but you can be flawed without falling. There is, if you will, an moral event horizon beyond which everything you are and everything you do becomes corrupted by the Dark Side.

 

For Revan, that event horizon was most likely Malachor V.

 

For Anakin, the event horizon was cutting off Mace's arms.

 

For the Jedi Council (in the prequels) there was no event horizon, but they were still arrogant enough that they allowed themselves to be blinded to the danger of Palpatine. The key here is that you can do bad things; you can even harbor strong emotions, but you (as a Force user) must guard against crossing that critical threshold.

 

As for your good Sith in SWTOR? The game seems to have an appropriate approach: if you act as a generally benign pragmatist, you get light side points.

[Velaran]

Not seeing any partisanship here. I can't speak for anyone but myself, but it isn't a matter of favoring the Jedi or disparaging the Sith; frankly I've always thought the Empire (the one in the movies, anyway) was cooler than the Republic, but I also believe that the arc of the story (stories) describes an unusually clear-cut moral division. Some would even say that Star Wars morality is so over-simplified as to be uninteresting.

 

This, pretty much. What's even the point of the story if the good guys will always win out in the end, no matter what, with zero moral ambiguity whatsoever? Under the morallity system set up my Lucas every story has the same end result.

[Rayla_Felana]

How could it be exactly what u meamt if it contradicts completely... U said she. Was taught it, and i said she did it unconsiously, if your taught it then u do it consciously, on purpose... And u mind telling me where it wws stated traya was severed from the force? Never heard that before

 

Instinct, simply put, she was taught by Vima Sunrider to harness her natural affinity for the ability, just because she knew how to use it, does not mean she cannot use it through instinct.

 

Because that is exactly what she is doing at the same time as severing their force bond.

 

It is stated in Chee's holocron and it is stated in the KotOR Campaign guide.

[Kelzack]

Let me quote something from the game real quick

 

"I was sith...I AM JEDI!"

 

ok I'm done.

[Rayla_Felana]

No, the Jedi aren't saints. You're drawing a false dichotomy, which is perhaps understandable because Lucas created a black-and-white morality system and then tried to shoe-horn a nuanced political-intrigue plot into that context.

 

But Lucas' missteps aside, we can take a combination of the canon lore and his statements to construct a plausible model that includes shades of grey: the Jedi aren't saints, but you can be flawed without falling. There is, if you will, an moral event horizon beyond which everything you are and everything you do becomes corrupted by the Dark Side.

 

For Revan, that event horizon was most likely Malachor V.

 

For Anakin, the event horizon was cutting off Mace's arms.

 

For the Jedi Council (in the prequels) there was no event horizon, but they were still arrogant enough that they allowed themselves to be blinded to the danger of Palpatine. The key here is that you can do bad things; you can even harbor strong emotions, but you (as a Force user) must guard against crossing that critical threshold.

 

As for your good Sith in SWTOR? The game seems to have an appropriate approach: if you act as a generally benign pragmatist, you get light side points.

 

Those event horizons are called Shatterpoints in the lore, just thought I'd throw that in there.

[Selenial]

Instinct, simply put, she was taught by Vima Sunrider to harness her natural affinity for the ability, just because she knew how to use it, does not mean she cannot use it through instinct.

 

Because that is exactly what she is doing at the same time as severing their force bond.

 

It is stated in Chee's holocron and it is stated in the KotOR Campaign guide.

 

Hmmm, searched for chi's holocron, nothing came up, as for kotor campaign guide, I remember nothing about it from there.. Links?

[Rayla_Felana]

Hmmm, searched for chi's holocron, nothing came up, as for kotor campaign guide, I remember nothing about it from there.. Links?

 

Chee's holocron should be on the Lucas website, KotOR Campaign Guide? as in the expansion for the Star Wars Saga Edition RPG by Wizards of the Coast.

 

I don't know where else to point you to.

[Invictos]

Lucas is pointless, Lucas has no standing in star wars lore anymore. He may have come up with the original movies but that does NOT mean everything he says is fact.... At least nit from our perspective, the perspective of the fsns

 

As we discussed earlier, there's a solid basis for discarding Lucas' ex post facto statements about his own work (or any author's for that matter). Authors can't impose an opinion on the public by fiat, after all; their work must be allowed to stand on its own merits.

 

But Star Wars is in a unique position, because although the original author's direct role in it is essentially over, the franchise continues to expand -- and so what we have is a large collection of spin-off material written by other people who are nonetheless acting as Lucas' proxies. And since Lucas can't (or won't, as the case may be) personally review everything that's written under his banner, we must accept his word in areas where his word disagrees with his proxies' work.

 

In very loose terms, and just IMO, the canon heirarchy goes like this:

 

1. The movies
   
2. Lucas himself
   
3. Everything else, with some EU works taking nominal precedence over others, but they're close enough to each other for our purposes.
   

As to why canon priority even matters? Well it's useful for silly (but entertaining!) discussions like ours to have a common frame of reference on the fundamentals. Otherwise, we're all welcome to enjoy Star Wars as we like. There's no arguing taste, and all that jazz.