Still after 1.2 Patch: SHOCK > project

[csmnstoica]

lol. Again play a Sin or a Sorc, and keep trying to peddle that it isnt sluggish. DELAY = SLUGGISH. You fire shock and it does damage. You fire project and it doesnt do damage UNTIL the delay is over. That is total crap. When I fire project I want it to do damage. I dont want to go "do something else" LIKE get hit by a true instant shock from the other faction and die. I fire project first, the sith should die first...BUT THE SLUGGISH DELAY gives the SITH the TIME to react and kill me as well, or do any other action that they wouldnt be ABLE to do if the JUNK wasnt DELAYED. It is such a HUGE disadvantage anyone that needs it explained to them really isnt thinking or must be trolling, IMO.

 

I agree about the disadvantage present at the moment but I disagree that Project should be changed . Shock should be changed.

 

Stop calling travel time sluggish. eg Cast a fireball in any game and you have cast time + travel time before dmg is done. I guess you would call that sluggish. At the moment we have:

Project - instant cast + travel time = delayed damage

Shock - instant cast (no travel time) = instant damage

Neither abilities are truly sluggish. Its just that one has travel time and one does not. Shock should be mirrored to Project and not the other way around.

 

DELAY gives the SITH the TIME to react

This is the crux of the matter. I don't wanna take away the sith's time and chance to react to my dmg but I want to be given the same opportunity. I feel that overall this is a better and more fun design than just having 2 abilities that do dmg upfront.

While I would certainly benefit from the dmg upfront this would turn this ability from a fun ability to a mundane ability easily forgotten.

[Dyvim]

I agree about the disadvantage present at the moment but I disagree that Project should be changed . Shock should be changed.

 

Stop calling travel time sluggish. eg Cast a fireball in any game and you have cast time + travel time before dmg is done. I guess you would call that sluggish. At the moment we have:

Project - instant cast + travel time = delayed damage

Shock - instant cast (no travel time) = instant damage

Neither abilities are truly sluggish. Its just that one has travel time and one does not. Shock should be mirrored to Project and not the other way around.

 

 

This is the crux of the matter. I don't wanna take away the sith's time and chance to react to my dmg but I want to be given the same opportunity. I feel that overall this is a better and more fun design than just having 2 abilities that do dmg upfront.

While I would certainly benefit from the dmg upfront this would turn this ability from a fun ability to a mundane ability easily forgotten.

 

Well at least we agree on something - it is a DISADVANTAGE. Why do you want to spread that disadvantage, INSTEAD of REMOVE IT? If you start introducing damage delay to instacast skills that dont have it, why stop at Inqs? I mean if consulars and Inqs have damage delay, then why NOT other classes with their low level instant abilities???

 

Really this is so obvious, I am stunned that I have to explain it. Combat is not just between inqs and cons in this game. Your crazy idea of spreading the delay simply spreads the problem. Why should operative/scoundrels, who can also stealth, and have various other defensive CDs, get the TIME to react to my inq/con insta abilitites of shock/project? Or ANY OTHER CLASS??? WHY? Will my Sin get the same chance to react to their insta abilities??? No? So we need to start spreading DELAYS around so EVERYONE gets the chance to avoid or mitigate instant abilities...that is one of the most stupid courses of action I can imagine. It is pure lunacy. Yet it is the logical conclusion of your argument.

 

If you want shock to get a "charging delay" (which is completely ridiculous), why shouldnt blasters and their instacast abilities get a "charging" or loading damage delay. Or aiming, or whatever. Hopefully you can see how wildly stupid that idea is, and the slippery slope of SLUGGISHNESS you would take the game down.

 

The devs have stated, REPEATEDLY, that they want to make the insta skills more responsive. I have YET to see ANY viable, informed reason why more RESPONSIVE is NOT the way to go. Shock delivers its damage faster. Project is SLOWER. SLOW = SLUGGISH.

 

Replace Project with a true instacast skill, like a saber throw, or a streamlined disturbance, and all the problems go away...it is that simple. Stop trying to make it more borked, please. We have enough of that already. As far as your characterization of instant making it a mundane ability...project is impacted by at LEAST 10 different talents in consular trees. It is INTEGRAL to at least 2 Shadow builds and one Sage build because of expertise. How does removing a disadvantage and making a skill MORE USEFUL, one that is integral to the class, make it mundane. That is just completely backwards. Is it memorable now? MEMORABLY BAD. Memorably un-jedi like. Memorably ridiculous with its endless magic, inappropriate junk conjuring. Memorable with its violation of the mirror paradigm. Memorable when the rock floats pathetically in the air when your target stealths. If that is the kind of memorability you are so fond of, I suggest you rethink your position, because suxiness, while possibiliy memorable, is not really desirable, unless you are just a troll trying to keep another class borked.

Edited April 21, 2012 by Dyvim

[RobNightfall]

To the OP: whatever the issue is BW either doesn't care or isn't competent enough to fix it. Yes it sucks, but move on. It's never going to get better.

 

To the poster who assumed BW would have fixed the double spam option if it was a big deal, that's really a large and unfounded assumption lol. BW hasn't demonstrated a lot of competence regarding programming this game, and the error may be beyond them to fix currently.

Edited April 21, 2012 by RobNightfall

[Tinmancreeping]

I was told they were going to be fixing this. I cant count how many times my project doesnt do any damage because it is not instant like the Inquisitor's Shock.

 

 

Anyone else upset about this? I actually play both Sorc and Sage/Shadow and must say Shock is much much better, in PvE and especially PvP.

 

I like the delay, adds for better "burst" potential. shush

[dronepilot]

Doesn't bother me at all the delay, just the 'floating' rocks, are kind of er.. silly.

[Didymus_]

Bioware,

 

Please remove Junk Throwing from Consulars, please replace it with a Force Project. You can see a similar display of this when Yoda and Palpatine are fighting in Episode 3. Palpatine uses Lightning on Yoda, Yoda holds the charge and then pushes forward a wave of Force that throws Palpatine back.

 

Also, Id like to point out that in the beginning of that battle, Palpatine uses Lightning on Yoda which sends him flying against the wall, where Yoda does a force feign injury. Shortly thereafter, Yoda hurts Palpatine in a similar manner with invisible lightning, lets call it force, then sends Palpatine flying against the wall.

 

Then shortly thereafter, Palpatine goes on a Junk throwing frenzy, 1 ship, 2 ship, 3 ship, 20 ships, muahahaha, 40 ships and then Yoda force holds one and slowly spins it around like a merry go round before sending it flying towards Palpatine.

 

Thats my 2 cents for now

[wowmiscott]

I kinda like it.. my rock is sitting there.. then it zooms and is followed by a bunch of pebbles.. kinda like a meteor and its meteorites.

 

So you like casting and using up force to cast it and it hangs there not hitting your target because they stealthed?

[Kframe]

Im new but want to throw my 2 cents in anyways. I with we had more of a force push line of attacks. Sure i like the idea of picking something from the enviroment and chucking it, but there needs to be a check done and make sure that the part being conjured is appropriate to the enviroment its being used in. Ok How could they improve the animation on project? Maybe have the rock/junk just fly straight out of the ground to the target. Should be alot faster then. No need for a arc or any thing like that. Or How about instead of picking a junk/rock out of the ground on screen to our sides, make the rock/junk come from behind out of our view. That way they can eliminate the whole pulling out of the ground animation, and make the dmg nearly instantanious. I think this would be a great way to improve it.

 

Tho more then anything i want force push style attacks. Maybe at the beginning i get just a basic single target kinetic dmg force push. THen as i lvl up i get variations of the theme, like a cone shape attack for multiple enemies, or a channeled one that summones a swirling vortex around a target then explodes or some such..

[Dyvim]

Im new...

 

Tho more then anything i want force push style attacks. Maybe at the beginning i get just a basic single target kinetic dmg force push. THen as i lvl up i get variations of the theme, like a cone shape attack for multiple enemies, or a channeled one that summones a swirling vortex around a target then explodes or some such..

 

You are describing Force Burst, a companion skill used by Ashara Zavros...ironically, the best jedi animations are used by jedi companions controlled by the sith...lol. Ironic, but not surprising...

 

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/8731/forceburstvsshock.jpg

[Solaras]

Lost a game of civil war last night due to project delay. Held mid whole game. We were fighting a zerg and once i got loose of my stuns and snares and got the necesary angle, all i had was project. Sure enough, the cap occurs while my rock is in flight. This was close to the end of the game and we lost by 30.

 

I think project is the coolest ability in-game. Takes me back to my grav controller, however after we lost that game i thought "those whiny fux on the forums werer right...we'd have won if i was on my sorc..".

 

I still lean toward keeping project and making sorc "gather" his lightning before flinging it, but thats prob just my inner gravity controller (CoH) talking.

[Metalmac]

Why do you have to use project as an instant cast? As it is the "delay" gives us our one advantage over the Sorc mirror class, namely improved burst.

 

They nerfed the damage difference. Where have you been? They are equal in damage but Project is slower.

[Vales]

Lost a game of civil war last night due to project delay. Held mid whole game. We were fighting a zerg and once i got loose of my stuns and snares and got the necesary angle, all i had was project. Sure enough, the cap occurs while my rock is in flight. This was close to the end of the game and we lost by 30.

 

I think project is the coolest ability in-game. Takes me back to my grav controller, however after we lost that game i thought "those whiny fux on the forums werer right...we'd have won if i was on my sorc..".

 

I still lean toward keeping project and making sorc "gather" his lightning before flinging it, but thats prob just my inner gravity controller (CoH) talking.

 

Did it ever occur to you that you could have used TK Throw which deals instant damage? So actually you lost because you did not play well.

[Ghostee]

Did it ever occur to you that you could have used TK Throw which deals instant damage? So actually you lost because you did not play well.

 

its very possible his TKT was on cd, using TXT when ur moving wont work, and trying to stop and press it is very inefficient when they are one second from capping and you are a split second from being within range/los

[Xinika]

I was told they were going to be fixing this. I cant count how many times my project doesnt do any damage because it is not instant like the Inquisitor's Shock.

 

 

Anyone else upset about this? I actually play both Sorc and Sage/Shadow and must say Shock is much much better, in PvE and especially PvP.

 

Stop making stupid threads like this. Project is better, learn the mechanics of the class. The delay is good. Period.

[Vales]

its very possible his TKT was on cd, using TXT when ur moving wont work, and trying to stop and press it is very inefficient when they are one second from capping and you are a split second from being within range/los

 

6 second CD as TK/Seer.

No CD for Balance/most Hybrids.

 

Sorry never happned to me as TK Sage that I could do nothing but Project to prevent a cap. In fact Project is the spell which I have on CD most unlike TK Throw which I use only on Procs or as already mentioned to prevent a capture.

 

Furthermore Quake also damage isntantly. As does FiB. As does instant TK wave, as does Sever Force, as does Stun, as does Lift with Containment, as does Mind Crush with PoM procc.

 

Really stop trying to defend that silly argument we have more than enough tools to disrupt.

[Dyvim]

6 second CD as TK/Seer.

No CD for Balance/most Hybrids.

 

Sorry never happned to me as TK Sage that I could do nothing but Project to prevent a cap. In fact Project is the spell which I have on CD most unlike TK Throw which I use only on Procs or as already mentioned to prevent a capture.

 

Furthermore Quake also damage isntantly. As does FiB. As does instant TK wave, as does Sever Force, as does Stun, as does Lift with Containment, as does Mind Crush with PoM procc.

 

Really stop trying to defend that silly argument we have more than enough tools to disrupt.

 

That is your opinion. And it is flawed, tbh. The indisputable fact is that we have ONE FEWER tool, one that because of its SHORT cooldown, instacast nature (dont have to stop movement, which takes time for the game to register that you have indeed stopped), and the numerous talents that different builds have to enhance it/buff it, make it ideal for interrupts on the Sith side, but not this side. And there is absolutely no good reason for it.

 

Throw? Quake? you have to stop moving...that takes time. Mind crush with proc...lol, yeah ok, IF it is ready. FiB and Sever Force are fine, if they are ready and IF you have them talented. Lot of ifs....Lift is subject to resolve...and has a min CD. Stun has, at best, a 50 sec CD. So yeah, there are options, they have flaws, and at the end of the day, we have ONE FEWER option.

 

So we have one fewer tool and its not just any tool, it should be the ideal tool.

Edited May 12, 2012 by Dyvim

[Dyvim]

Stop making stupid threads like this. Project is better, learn the mechanics of the class. The delay is good. Period.

 

Learn the concept of mirrored classes. The delay is bad, period. You think it lets you cheat the GCD system, but the obvious point is that it screws up more than YOU think it gives. It effectively shortens the window we have to use related procs, like particle acceleration and force potency by about a second. It gives your opponent TIME to react that they shouldnt get. Time to pop defensive CDs they shouldnt get. Time.

 

SO L2P and Learn the mechanics of the game, and dont just get hung up on a broken mechanic that you like because you think it lets you cheat the system.

Edited May 12, 2012 by Dyvim

[Xienive]

You can get better burst with Project as a Shadow, you just can. If you don't think so then keep trying your rotation differently until you do think so.

[Tiresias]

Stop making stupid threads like this. Project is better, learn the mechanics of the class. The delay is good. Period.

 

I lost a Warzone today because of the Project delay.

 

I had a healer at 1% health and was out of melee range thanks to a knockback. The only thing not on cooldown was Project. The rock is in the air flying towards him and his heal goes off -- he lives. Shortly thereafter his friends return from respawn and we never take the node.

 

The whole "better burst" thing is is silly argument Shin, and you know it. How many capture points have you lost with a rock in the air? I've personally lost count.

 

I've been campaigning for a change to Project since closed beta, and I'm more than a little frustrated that something hasn't been done about it yet. It's a real problem for Sages who have absolutely no way to utilize it fore burst and therefore are stuck with a strictly inferior ability as compared to Shock. The delay from 10 yards (what you experience) is about 1 second. The delay from 30-35 yards away can be two seconds -- more if the target is moving away from you. That's just insane for an instant-cast ability.

 

I know that Bioware wants the whole "earth controller" feel for Counselors, but something has got to give here.

[Vales]

Well they could remove the delay if they would remove the "upheaval" animation and just let the rock acelerate directly to the enemy.

[Daiyukie]

You know what the most annoying thing in pvp as a shadoiw is?

 

You take this enormous rock (or 2) and put in in the air, ready to hurl it at your enemy.. and you're thinking, "this is SO cool..", only to have them cloak, and have your giant rock sitting in mid air... and NO damage has been done. And you're left thinking to yourself, "if I was an assassin, this wouldn't have happened"

 

 

or...

 

your target is about be killed... as soon as your projected rock hits your enemy, and you're thinking.. "oh ya, you're gonna die!" only to realize that you're enemy's shock got his damage done first, regardless of teh fact that you fired it off before him and killed you first. And you're dead, and you're left thinking to yourself... "you know what, I used my mirrored ability first, he should be dead, and I should be alive...if I was an assassin, this wouldn't have happened"

 

 

or...

 

You're stacked up your circling shadows, and your exit strategy, and you're about to really give your enemy the business.... so launch your rock (or 2) into the air about to start your BURST DAMAGE, only to realize that that animation gave them plenty of time to realize what you were about to do, so they hit their "resilience" ability making them completely immune to all the damage you were so excited about... and you're left thinking to yourself, "if I was an assassin, this wouldn't have happened"

 

FIX THIS

 

Aaaaand the winner for best post iiiiiiis.... -Drumroll- .......... This guy! For his brilliant illustration of all the situations where Project fails! Congratulations jcurri, I hope you enjoy your grand prize in Hawaii! ... What? Oh, it says "Ha! WAI" not HAWAII so I guess "Working As Intended". Sorry about that folks, see you next time here on Bioware Trolls!

Edited May 13, 2012 by Daiyukie

[mikedee]

I'm sorry but SERIOUSLY BAD Shadow PVPers, want to keep the delay in project. It's called burst damage. It's called killing people. It's ignorant to make some blanket statement saying that only casuals support the delay. Really? C'mon man...

 

Fixed that for you. You like having a skill go off. But having no damage as a result? This is way past due. This needs a fix asap. There is no burst if the skill doesn't hit.

[mikedee]

Aaaaand the winner for best post iiiiiiis.... -Drumroll- .......... This guy! For his brilliant illustration of all the situations where Project fails! Congratulations jcurri, I hope you enjoy your grand prize in Hawaii! ... What? Oh, it says "Ha! WAI" not HAWAII so I guess "Working As Intended". Sorry about that folks, see you next time here on Bioware Trolls!

 

Epic...Clearly the only way to fix the project animation is to nerf ops/scoundrels again! Buffing maras might help too!

[UtherrSorven]

Someone in another Sage Class thread came up with the perfect fix for this. As a sage, we don't get to use our lightsaber all that much. So:

 

- Change name of Project to Lightsaber Throw

- Keep all damage, casting time, et. al. stats as they are so it behaves just like project (minus the delay)

- Take the lightsaber throw animation that already exists in the game and insert here

- Lore: Yoda, a consular, throws his lightsaber into the chest of a clone trooper while he leaps after it.

 

Boom. Very quick fix. We are no longer throwing junk around. Simple fix (not a programmer... but it seems like ti should be...).

[Dyvim]

Someone in another Sage Class thread came up with the perfect fix for this. As a sage, we don't get to use our lightsaber all that much. So:

 

- Change name of Project to Lightsaber Throw

- Keep all damage, casting time, et. al. stats as they are so it behaves just like project (minus the delay)

- Take the lightsaber throw animation that already exists in the game and insert here

- Lore: Yoda, a consular, throws his lightsaber into the chest of a clone trooper while he leaps after it.

 

Boom. Very quick fix. We are no longer throwing junk around. Simple fix (not a programmer... but it seems like ti should be...).

 

Yep, a player named Paradoxfoxx came up with it in my idea thread. It is perfect. But there are THREE quick, easy, already in the game fixes for chunk a clunker. All INSTANT. Junk gone, delay gone.

 

1) saber throw - looks great in this game. In the movies Yoda is the only jedi example we have using it, as you point out, and he is the CONSULAR poster boy. So if ANYONE saber throws, it should be consulars...and what makes more sense for a jedi to throw? A magically conjured rock, or something already in his hand that can supposedly cut through just about anything??? And for Upheaval (double hit), the saber could just make a quick boomerang motion and swipe the target twice...it would be beyond epic. And a double bladed saber throw for Shadows would be sweeeeet.

 

2) Ashara Zavros, an Inquisitor companion, is a jedi padawan with an awesome looking instant skill called force burst. She uses it side by side with my Sins shock all the time, and tbh it looks better than shock. Also easy to double up on with upheaval...pic of Force Burst side by side with Shock...

 

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/8...rstvsshock.jpg

 

3) Raina Temple is a force sensitive (no sith training) Agent companion that also has a skill called Force Burst, with a COMPLETELY different, yet also perfect replacement instant animation. Pic of force burst...blue energy doesnt show up as well on blue hoth, but you get the idea...

 

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/1658/forceburst.jpg

 

So there we have THREE replacements, already in game, in sync with the lore, ready to go, all of which are INSTANT and INDEPENDENT of the environment, and dont involve throwing junk like a sith wannabe. So simple. Delay gone, junk gone.

Edited May 16, 2012 by Dyvim