On Warzone Scoring and Rewards

[HelinCarnate]

Or an example of someone using the word "couple" in lieu of "few", which is most likely what he meant. I know, all game designers should have absolute command of the English language.

 

Designers? No. Those that are communicating changes to their customer? Yes.

[Baredevil]

This post is just as ignorant as it is stubborn. The new system is worse than the previous. Don't try and justify these changes when the entire concept is disliked by a large number of pvp players. I want to see this game go places and

I want to commit to this game but I just can't lie to myself and say that I think the pvp is going in the direction that meets my expectations.

[Remiel]

I'm not much of a PvPer when it comes to MMOs (I'm pretty much new to MMOs in general too). But I can't help but think some of the problems people are have to do with how players are playing Warzones. After 1.2, (and I think bioware stated something to this affect) the rules for Warzones have changed. So maybe some people are having adjustment issues?

 

Personally I'm getting more medals post 1.2 then i did before, and it seems getting medals is what really brings up the rewards for playing. I'm on the losing team most of the time (republic), especially since I solo a lot, which mean I'm not always with those who know what they are doing. I've been on bad teams, but as long as I do my part, in more than one way, to help the team I usually get enough medals to get decent exp, and some credits (usually is an understatement). But mostly I've been enjoying PvP more post 1.2, and I'm talking about the playing experience not the rewards (tbh I don't pay attention to it too much, I just glance at that stuff). The only thing I really don't like about the PVP is the negative thinking of my teammates...

[Boonfiftytwo]

Personally I'm getting more medals post 1.2 then i did before, and it seems getting medals is what really brings up the rewards for playing. I'm on the losing team most of the time (republic), especially since I solo a lot, which mean I'm not always with those who know what they are doing. I've been on bad teams, but as long as I do my part, in more than one way, to help the team I usually get enough medals to get decent exp, and some credits...

 

The problem here Remiel, is that if you face an opposing team that really outmatches you, as is this case with most premade groups, then you are not likely to get many medals at all, if any.

If you join a game later, and it's almost over, you're guaranteed to get nothing.

Point being, if you are heavily outmatched, you can't earn medals past about 4.

If you want to get decent rewards you need 8.

8 medals and a loss nets your about 50-60 commendations.

8 medals and a win nets you around 100-120.

So it basically 2x to win, this is where the problem lies. They say they want to reward contribution - then winning or losing shouldn't matter, or should only add 10 commendations. I've seen a case where someone I know ripped out 600+K healing in a losing match - now that is serious contribution, but the other team was just too strong.

He got 35 commendations. Vs a person on the winning team with 140k damage, 8 medals getting 120 commendations. This system does not reward contribution at all, it rewards winning.

 

This whole effect means that winning is too heavily rewarded, and losing is too heavily punished.

Getting zero for staying and being farmed for an entire match, as much as you wanted to give in but didnt, is just a slap in the face. And its not the only problem, its that the rewards are used to improve your gear. Now as the PvP has been made entirely gear dependant, it means that winning teams continue to widen this gap because of an imbalanced reward system.

 

Actually heres a prime example - someone on a winning team who joined late, and earned only 3 medals will get 80 or so commendations. They really did nothing to contribute, they just got lucky and joined the winning team.

The losing team, one of the guys has topped 600K healing, gets only 4 medals because the other team are just plain unkillable because of their gear, and he is rewarded with 35 comms.

 

On one hand they say they want to reward contribution, but the rewards simply do not reflect what they say they want to reward.

 

Effectively what happens is, in the first minute or two in certain maps it be clear and obvious which team outgears which, and who is likely to win. Then all that happens is anyone that wants gear just leaves, because chances are you spend 20 minutes often for 0 reward, or for 1/4 the reward you would otherwise get if winning.

So essentially you can leave 4 or 5 games before it becomes a loss to do so.

This leaving of matches causes a minute or two of imbalance, which causes the game loss to cascade, and means newer players joining have even less chance to earn.

 

The system is broken.

Edited April 18, 2012 by Boonfiftytwo

[Kahldor]

Well done sir. I agree with the rest of the non-quoted stuff as well.

 

I do think part of the problem is exactly what you said. People have to get used to things. A lot of complaints about Novare Coast. It seems people don't realize they can exit in three different directions, for example, upon dying. I see SO many people just straight ahead, straight ahead, and get farmed by the team owning south middle.

 

Honestly, if I hadn't played the warzone in beta and done the same n00b thing for a few sessions, I'd be learning it now.

 

Friends: IF someone complains about being unable to get any medals, suggest they go out a differnet exit the next time they get zerg killed.

 

"Getting used to things" for some of us means not PvPing anymore. I went from 80% of my playtime PvPing to near 0. Basically, they removed an aspect of the game I enjoyed imho. I'll PvE until I get bored to tears and hopefully they fix the rewards system before then. I'm not gonna be cannon fodder for well-geared imp premades.

[PullinStuff]

The problem here Remiel, is that if you face an opposing team that really outmatches you, as is this case with most premade groups, then you are not likely to get many medals at all, if any.

If you join a game later, and it's almost over, you're guaranteed to get nothing.

Point being, if you are heavily outmatched, you can't earn medals past about 4.

If you want to get decent rewards you need 8.

8 medals and a loss nets your about 50-60 commendations.

8 medals and a win nets you around 100-120.

So it basically 2x to win, this is where the problem lies. They say they want to reward contribution - then winning or losing shouldn't matter, or should only add 10 commendations. I've seen a case where someone I know ripped out 600+K healing in a losing match - now that is serious contribution, but the other team was just too strong.

He got 35 commendations. Vs a person on the winning team with 140k damage, 8 medals getting 120 commendations. This system does not reward contribution at all, it rewards winning.

 

This whole effect means that winning is too heavily rewarded, and losing is too heavily punished.

Getting zero for staying and being farmed for an entire match, as much as you wanted to give in but didnt, is just a slap in the face. And its not the only problem, its that the rewards are used to improve your gear. Now as the PvP has been made entirely gear dependant, it means that winning teams continue to widen this gap because of an imbalanced reward system.

 

Actually heres a prime example - someone on a winning team who joined late, and earned only 3 medals will get 80 or so commendations. They really did nothing to contribute, they just got lucky and joined the winning team.

The losing team, one of the guys has topped 600K healing, gets only 4 medals because the other team are just plain unkillable because of their gear, and he is rewarded with 35 comms.

 

On one hand they say they want to reward contribution, but the rewards simply do not reflect what they say they want to reward.

 

Effectively what happens is, in the first minute or two in certain maps it be clear and obvious which team outgears which, and who is likely to win. Then all that happens is anyone that wants gear just leaves, because chances are you spend 20 minutes often for 0 reward, or for 1/4 the reward you would otherwise get if winning.

So essentially you can leave 4 or 5 games before it becomes a loss to do so.

This leaving of matches causes a minute or two of imbalance, which causes the game loss to cascade, and means newer players joining have even less chance to earn.

 

The system is broken.

 

All you are really telling me is your healer friends are not participating in the warzone....

 

Sure, they heal for a whole lot, I bet there was not one of them within 30m of the warzone objective...

I am sure not one of them was healing people actually involved in defending or capping warzone objectives...

 

People still wonder why I grind comms quick, it is because me and a few others realized that the participation being rewarded is not 500k damage/healing/guarding, it is performing like that at the objective points in an attempt to win the warzone...

 

I remember the player on my team whining about is paltry rewards, he was inconsolable and started getting verbally abusive when I explained nicely that all he had to do was change his tactics from fighting for top damage/kills and rather help the team win the damn warzone...

 

that is the key to not getting 0 comms...

after that you are looking at (for a perpetual loser) less than 2 months at 2 hours in pvp a day for the full gear...

the perpetual winner takes two weeks less... gear disparity is a bs claim.

[ZeroMasta]

You need to take a complete look and how you award commendations and valor.

 

I queue'd for a WZ last night and got into a losing Huttball where we were down 4-0 and the opposing team was just rolling us.

 

I'm at the shield/gate and now it's 5-0. I get out, fight for about 20 seconds, and then we lose.

 

I got 0 valor. I got 0 commendations.

 

That's fine if I don't get either, but I shouldn't be punished with my time being wasted for queue, loading, moving somewhere, waiting for a gate, fighting, just to get nothing from it except to requeu.

 

That needs to be addressed.

 

*So what does that mean? It means that the high population Imperial side continues to gain rewards at an alarmingly higher rate than the Republic. The gearing disparity gets bigger and they get stronger.

 

At least in 25% of the games I played, I got in during the final moments. Yes, you say you're going to address that, but you're not addressing the real issue. So what if my one medal allows me to get a token WZ Com, the Imps got the full amount and our side got squat in comparison...back to the real problem.

 

P.S.: If your data *is* accurate, then you need to explain to us why you think this current disparity (as expressed above) is considered by BW to be a good design. *

 

These two statements were the first and the heart of the matter. and it was gotten in before everyone started bashing each other about skill and what ever.

 

It's true tho we all get rolled on by a premade or a really good squad. But if you do get rolled on and spent 5-15 mins of your time for 0 / 0 / 0..... its BS.

 

My problem also is you reduced how many lv you can get on an alt before I HAVE to go PVE. What if I wanted to pvp my whole way and ONLLY do my Story quest one a character? I do pay for this subscription.. So why can't I do what I want? (within a reasonable amount of course)

 

You have also raise the comms required for lv 20 gear and weapons? On top of this credit nerf and rewards nerf?

(Why am I still subscribed..)

 

When is the update to fix the pvp ****, so I start can pvping on my alts again?

[telnights]

I just don't get how anyone can think this system is good for PVP in this game.

[Boonfiftytwo]

All you are really telling me is your healer friends are not participating in the warzone....

 

Sure, they heal for a whole lot, I bet there was not one of them within 30m of the warzone objective...

I am sure not one of them was healing people actually involved in defending or capping warzone objectives...

 

People still wonder why I grind comms quick, it is because me and a few others realized that the participation being rewarded is not 500k damage/healing/guarding, it is performing like that at the objective points in an attempt to win the warzone...

 

I remember the player on my team whining about is paltry rewards, he was inconsolable and started getting verbally abusive when I explained nicely that all he had to do was change his tactics from fighting for top damage/kills and rather help the team win the damn warzone...

 

that is the key to not getting 0 comms...

after that you are looking at (for a perpetual loser) less than 2 months at 2 hours in pvp a day for the full gear...

the perpetual winner takes two weeks less... gear disparity is a bs claim.

 

No, thats not what I'm telling you at all, that's what you heard (ie what your brain made up) but its not what I said at all. It was a voidstar match, you can't not be defending/attacking mate, what planet are you from and show me where the bad Xenu touched you on this doll?

 

You, are bleedingly obviously, one of the players that this patch benefited. I bet you win most games, roll with premades, are probably in a full BM set already, with at least 2 pieces of war hero gear? I'd put money on it. Its like those people that say "money doesnt matter" but only people with money say that.

I personally play games to win them, that means taking points, and defending them. The healer I am talking about heals me, and another friend (and HoT's on everyone else) - so I know for a fact he was "contributing" to the attempt to defend or to attack a door. So your point is nullified, invalid, misguided, and outright wrong.

 

Medals are not rewarded for placing a bomb on a door, or attacking people near a door. You only get medals for stopping someone placing or trying to remove a bomb. In an outmatched game, either of these objectives are impossible. In an outmatched game, killing your oponents is near impossible. You are as short sighted with your comment as the patch was with its implementation. I dont need to change tactics, the rewards need to match actually achievable outcomes. 7 medals and a loss netting 25 commendations, vs 7 medals and a win netting 80+, there is just no comparison - and tell me then how getting 1/4 of the commendations over ever increasing periods of losing streaks doesn't create a gear gap? You are dillusional pal.

 

But here really, is the clincher (where you got your math from i'm not sure - because a perpetual loser could POTENTIALLY get 0 rewards, perpetually, meaning they never get a single piece of gear upgrade let alone a full set)

"after that you are looking at (for a perpetual loser) less than 2 months at 2 hours in pvp a day for the full gear...

the perpetual winner takes two weeks less... gear disparity is a bs claim. "

 

So you're telling me, that 2 weeks vs 8 weeks is an acceptable difference?

Thats 8 dollars, versus 32 dollars (in subscription price)

So...how does this become fair and balanced?

Again, your dellusions are taking control.

Edited April 18, 2012 by Boonfiftytwo

[Herboss]

The fact this hasn't been fixed yet (yes fixed because it's CLEARLY broken) blows me away. I can see what they are trying to do (encourage people to fight til the end even if losing) but the reality is the vast majority of games I've played in are just HEAVILY one sided. Good intentions yes, but the reality is it doesn't work in practise and as has been mentioned a million times just increases the gap between the haves and have nots.

 

This isn't from a whingy loser either, I win a lot more than I lose but it's frustrating enough when you get piss all reward for the time you put in let alone it happening more often than not like it would be to a large amount of your (for the moment) subs.

 

Seriously, FIX THIS and FIX IT now!

[hankart]

All you are really telling me is your healer friends are not participating in the warzone....

 

Sure, they heal for a whole lot, I bet there was not one of them within 30m of the warzone objective...

I am sure not one of them was healing people actually involved in defending or capping warzone objectives...

 

People still wonder why I grind comms quick, it is because me and a few others realized that the participation being rewarded is not 500k damage/healing/guarding, it is performing like that at the objective points in an attempt to win the warzone...

 

I remember the player on my team whining about is paltry rewards, he was inconsolable and started getting verbally abusive when I explained nicely that all he had to do was change his tactics from fighting for top damage/kills and rather help the team win the damn warzone...

 

that is the key to not getting 0 comms...

after that you are looking at (for a perpetual loser) less than 2 months at 2 hours in pvp a day for the full gear...

the perpetual winner takes two weeks less... gear disparity is a bs claim.

 

All I get from your reply is another elitist piping in defending this broken system. You have already recieved your welfare gear pre 1.2 and now its OK that it will take others twice as long to get thier gear. The whole time you relish in farming them to upgrade your gear. Under this new system you can fight as hard as you can to win, but if your getting ganked by a premade the whole time you will get less that 3 medals and you will get 0000. All this for your best effort to win, which I thought was the goal. You win you get more of everything, isnt that how they said its supposed to work. How about every noob you meet you buy him a nice set of recruit geat that way you pay back the welfare you have already recieved. And que in pug every other WZ, then you can gain a little perspective.

 

P.S. If its not broken why are they changing it already?

[Polebreaker]

The killer is, the new system isnt just disliked, it's fundamentally FLAWED.

 

Gearing up the winning team faster than the losing team is moronic. You want more rewards for the winners? Fine, have more valour and creds. But anything traded in for enhancing performance should be equal, or the gap between the overpopulated winning faction and the losing faction will forever grow larger. The old system was bad, this is WORSE.

 

And you know what, it doesnt take watching metric, or testing, or careful consideration to see this. You've had 4 months of testing on live servers, and your prescious metrics should make it obvious that you screwed it up from the get go.

Edited April 18, 2012 by Polebreaker

[Saberox]

Whomever had the idea of nerfing the rewards both $$ and medals required to get any score in pvp is EFFIN RETARDED!!!

I am sick and tired of all the hair brained stupid decisions this company has been making to this game which is in effect killing the game. If this is not corrected FAST ... then you will be losing so many subs that people will forget there was ever a STWOR!

[HelinCarnate]

Hey folks,

 

Some follow up news from observations of play and feedback over the weekend. In the next couple of days we will be deploying a small patch that will address the following issues:

 

• As discussed, minimum medals to gain rewards will go from 3 to 1 to better reward those who are backfilled.
  
• Warzones will once again be shutting down when population imbalance is detected. This was an unfortunate bug where a feature of Ranked Warzones (in full team play it is not desirable to let one team end the game prematurely by quitting out) was incorrectly implemented globally.
  
• Completion of Warzones will gain a large increase in the percentage of rewards it represents, so while scoring is still the primary driver, you will cease to see games that give no rewards if players have a minimum of 1 medal earned.
  
• We are extending the time we wait for a full team of eight to better make sure Warzones pop with complete teams.

 

A huge thank you to everyone who played this weekend and provided valuable feedback and analysis.

 

Quote: Originally Posted by GeorgZoeller 3/23/2012 on the test server forums. Post has since been deleted.

 

 

Guys,

 

We've changed the way rewards are given in Warzones (rewards are now based on participation - if you idle, you get nothing), and this has resulted in you seeing some odd values on PTS.

 

The current credit and XP numbers you are seeing are temporary. In a future patch to PTS, you will provide the necessary data for the system to allocate proper rewards.

 

Sorry for the confusion here, but it's the nature of the test server to sometimes receive incomplete systems. If we intended the current behavior to be final, you would have seen a patch note explaining this change.

 

TL;DR: Don't worry too much. You're looking at temporary data. Credit and XP rewards for Warzones, while changed to take participation into account, are not significantly changed from the numbers you've seen before. We expect some changes (as you are more likely to lose games early in your career, so we want to compensate for that), but nothing is finalized yet.

End quote.

 

Are we ever going to get something saying this has been fixed or just that it will be fixed soon ?

[theKirin]

maybe in patch 1.3 you guys can just change the reward rule to winner takes all

loser gets nothing.

i bet you guys can make more people to join swtor and play pvp

btw anyone knows when will guild wars 2 release?

Edited April 18, 2012 by theKirin

[Darth_Vampirius]

The three medal thing is definitely not a major issue... it's the insta-gibs that are wrecking the game!

[Citara]

I died a little inside after a recent Alderan warzone where I was healing and gained 12 medals (including 3 objective based medals), and worked my *** off and was active non-stop while 3 other players were afk dancing on hills during a long 3 cap (I say long because we held middle at neutral for half the match). For me it felt like the hardest (effort wize) warzone I had played in a while and I really felt like, even though we lost badly, I had put in the effort that would at least be acknowledged in some way at the end... if only as a "we noticed you never gave up so here is some credit" kind of way.

 

End result for my exhausting 12 or so minutes effort.... 43 valor, 4 comms (after receiving 2 votes), 85 experience (tho not much use at 50) and 0 credits.

 

I have never left a losing warzone before, I have always believed in playing them to the end even before the previous build that was actually rewarding for those who stayed, but after seeing that, can anyone tell me what the point of staying in one is when you get rewarded like this?

[Varicite]

The three medal thing is definitely not a major issue... it's the insta-gibs that are wrecking the game!

 

It must be those teams of Operatives they mentioned.

 

I knew they'd be back.

[Boonfiftytwo]

maybe in patch 1.3 you guys can just change the reward rule to winner takes all

loser gets nothing.

i bet you guys can make more people to join swtor and play pvp

btw anyone knows when will guild wars 2 release?

 

I know you're just being (mostly) sarcastic here but this is exactly what BW face with the pvp screw-over that has been implemented.

 

I will be leaving to play something else like GW2 or TSW neither of which are gear based.

 

BW need to realise you can't make this sort of mistake in such a competitive game environment, because there are a dozen other good games out there just waiting to snap up anyone you p*ss off.

 

I'm not saying this to promote those games, I couldn't care less if other people want to play those or not - my point being solely to BW - get it right before you implement it.

I think you will find almost EVERYONE would have preferred for you to postpone 1.2 and further test the patch and its flow on effects, than to totally screw over 80% of your population. In this kind of day where games and MMO's are many and varied, screwing over your pop should be last thing you want to do. WoW used to get away with it, because there was nothing else close to it at the time.

[Terrimal]

I died a little inside after a recent Alderan warzone where I was healing and gained 12 medals (including 3 objective based medals), and worked my *** off and was active non-stop while 3 other players were afk dancing on hills during a long 3 cap (I say long because we held middle at neutral for half the match). For me it felt like the hardest (effort wize) warzone I had played in a while and I really felt like, even though we lost badly, I had put in the effort that would at least be acknowledged in some way at the end... if only as a "we noticed you never gave up so here is some credit" kind of way.

 

End result for my exhausting 12 or so minutes effort.... 43 valor, 4 comms (after receiving 2 votes), 85 experience (tho not much use at 50) and 0 credits.

 

I have never left a losing warzone before, I have always believed in playing them to the end even before the previous build that was actually rewarding for those who stayed, but after seeing that, can anyone tell me what the point of staying in one is when you get rewarded like this?

 

Right now, not really much. It's why on my server I see about half the team quitting within 2-3 minutes if it looks like we'll lose. Which, then it becomes impossible for to win since we lose numbers and can't recover even if they get replaced. What's worse is if you pvp during your server's slow hours. If you drop and don't wait long enough to requeue, you get right back into the WZ you just left.

 

And every queue you get in will be low numbers that, even barring the accidental bug of not stopping the match due to lack of players, inhibits your ability to get any medals at all. Doesn't matter how good you are as an individual, you're only chances of getting even 1 medal when you're outnumbered 4-1 are the 2.5k single hit or a lucky assassination.

 

That means there's no point in even queuing up at all, which further lessens any chance of getting pvp wins at that time of day at all.

[mezzaninex]

maybe in patch 1.3 you guys can just change the reward rule to winner takes all

loser gets nothing.

i bet you guys can make more people to join swtor and play pvp

btw anyone knows when will guild wars 2 release?

 

No date on GW2 yet, but D3 on May 15th, it's going to be funny to see how empty the servers are just because they rushed out 1.2 to avoid that very thing from happening.

[Varicite]

No date on GW2 yet, but D3 on May 15th, it's going to be funny to see how empty the servers are just because they rushed out 1.2 to avoid that very thing from happening.

 

Have you not heard that (much like WoW) D3 is launching w/out PvP at all? : o

 

I believe it's supposed to be coming out in the next patch.

[Kanana]

These changes have turned me into what i hated the most a quitter as well, if i get off to a slow start, or we are getting owned to sit through that only to get 0 anything is a waste of time and effort. I never thought id quit a game, and before 1.2 i took some solids loses before and stuck it out, because atleast you got something worth the pounding to stick it out.

 

Same here.

[Tenthletter]

The biggest mistake the development team has made here is that they have tried to punish failure. Not only is punishing failure impossible to do without hurting some people, it breaks the Golden Rule of Gaming: Games are supposed to be FUN. You shouldn't have to worry about whether or not you "did enough" to get rewarded. MMO's are not mid-term exams; they're videogames, and we play them to enjoy ourselves.

 

Prior to these changes, I could drop into a Warzone, have some fun, and come away with some rewards. Now there's all this pressure to perform, this knowledge that if I fail to make some arbitrary mark of contribution I will get NOTHING.

 

Where this hurts the most...and this may cause permanent, long-lasting damage to the game's PvP base...is in the casual player. I am not a hardcore PvPer. I just like to drop in and have some lightsaber duels with the Sith every now and again. Though that's still fun, it's hard to justify doing that in this game when grinding mobs and repeating quests will not only allow me to do the same thing, but will give me some kind of tangible benefit for doing so.

 

Changing the medals down to one is a good start, but frankly it will not be good enough. For every one AFKer you successfully deny, there will be ten players who dropped in late, didn't know what they were doing, or are simply not very good at PvP, and they will get nothing. I would much, much rather see a couple of lazy players exploit the system for easy gain than hear about even one honest, fun-loving player getting turned off from PvP play in this game because there's a penalty for failure.

 

Punishing those who exploit the system is a noble goal, but if even one player is falsely affected by these rules, then the system as a whole fails. And that, unfortunately, is the case here.

 

Quoting this for emphasis. Excellent post.

 

This is a video game, one of literally thousands. If players are not having fun, and feel that their time spent playing this game is not being rewarded properly, they will simply stop playing. This hurts everyone playing the game, as subscribers will drop, as will revenue and speed/quality of new content, not to mention increases in PVP queue times.

 

The fact that anyone is ok with the losing team getting zero reward under ANY circumstances is amazingly short-sighted. Not to mention what the current rewards do to leveling through PVP or sustaining a 50 through PVP alone. Not everyone wants to quest or grind dailies endlessly to support their character.

[Nogalus]

seen a lot of posts on jacked up pvp. i agree overall. i would like to make some suggestions to improve it. just another opinion, but maybe it could help. fresh 50's need credits to buy recruit gear and commendations to get better gear later. maybe some of these things are implemented, maybe not:

 

--Stay the entire match= earn medal or medals

--Certain amount of damage done= earn medal (with each medal earned more damage required)

--Certain amount of damage and/or death taken by opposite team players= earn medal (with each medal earned more damage and/or deaths required)

--Certain amount of healing given to ANOTHER team player= earn medal (with each medal earned more healing required)

--Defending gives only a certain amount of medal(s)

--Keep a certain type of deserter detection on all players after entering the zone, even defenders will or should move a little bit throughout the match

--Maybe set up a movement momentum, players who move around the warzone map to different places (doors, turrets, bunkers) receive medal(s) for that

--Enter a warzone toward end of match earn some credits and/or xp(<lvl50), if no medals earned in time

 

maybe some of those suggestions could improve matches:)