Immortal Juggernaut Ability Bloat

[Kojiyama]

Ok what abilities would you combine and reduce the cd on? Also keep class balance in mind as well as PvP.

 

That would be an interesting argument if most of our abilities actually did anything in PvP. As the majority of them do absolutely nothing other than damage in PvP, however, tinkering/combining/removing cooldowns would have close to zero impact whatsoever.

[lukemsilver]

With the amount of abilities I have now combat feels like a button mash. Everyone needs to agree there is a point when there are too many abilities. Below level 30 I could still fairly have an idea of which moves I needed to do next based on cool-downs and rage. I would love to only need 2 bars for abilities. There are a lot of abilities I don't use just because I already have too many; Pommel Strike and Kick seem like good moves as far as damage output but I'm already overburdened.

 

I'm alright with macros but I don't want to rely on them for my moves. They could just as easily be eliminated and change the cool-down so it can mesh well with the other essential moves.

[Lord_Itharius]

Not to take your comments out of context, but this snippet sums up the crux of the issue right here. Due to the way that the abilities fill different niches, you end up with a lot of these buttons that exist purely to fill in edge cases rather than provide any substantial functionality on their own merit. I think it would go a long way to streamlining the gameplay overall if they just removed a lot of these fallback abilities and just covered their niche with some of the more prominent Immortal abilities. I don't think they need to dilute the class to the point of 4-5 buttons, but 12-15 is probably a lot more reasonable than 21 and still provides enough variety to help provide a bit of a skill buffer between players.

 

Yeah, I agree. It's certainly feasible to learn how to play the class up to its potential (it isn't impossible to keybind 21 abilities, just use number keys, ctrl+#s, and shift+#s), but having so many abilities forces you to stare at the terrible interface to gauge ability cooldowns instead of looking at the fight, which makes the game less immersive and makes it harder to move out of mechanics.

 

Vengeance doesn't have it as bad. I think I use closer to 15 abilities regularly. Impale and Shatter are on short cooldowns, making rotations easier, and many abilities used regularly by Immortals (vicious strike, retaliation) are wastes of rage.

[Lord_Itharius]

Who gives a crap about leveling? It's so easy. I've barely been playing adn im level 25 already. I just set up my skills on my hotbar in order of their priority. It's really simple to see what's coming up next or what you need to do. Please don't make this class easy. I like that we have tons of skills. It makes me feel versatile. Also, they are supposed to be a class that is ****** with a lightsaber. You don't see them spamming the same 3 moves over and over again in the movies. I like the way it looks. Every skill has a different animation. I LOVE the way the juggernaut plays.

 

You're lvl 25. You still get at least 8 more regular use abilities.

 

There were similar amounts of abilities in a lot of games, but there were macros that people used to help manage them. I think once they implement a macro system, people will stop feeling like they are going crazy.

 

Yep, Macros are another solution. Nobody likes to hit 5 buttons at the start of a fight just to activate all their non-GCD buffs and consumables. Macros simplify that process so you don't get massive clutter from utility abilities/consumables that are used in the same exact way every fight. For example, in WoW, I would macro my agility trinkets to enrage on my feral druid tank.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Lord_Itharius

[vonblick]

OMG YES!!!!

 

I really hope someone that can do something sees this thread cause it is retarded how much CD management I have for abilities that could totally be combined, or even thrown out if they adjusted other abilties to compensate.

 

I shudder at the thought of having to attempt playing against a real live person that won't just stand there while I stare at my quickbars.

 

Off the top of my head:

 

Lose sunder and adjust assault to compensate. If you want to keep the sundering aspect have it be a tree skill that buffs assault or have an armor sunder proc every 3 hits on assault or something.

 

Combine Force Scream with Smash making it basically act at as a smash that does aoe damage, but does a higher ammount of damage to your target. Or combine Force Scream with Chilling Scream so you have a scream that damages and slows with an appropriate CD

 

Lose ravage and have retaliate cost no rage.

 

Keep in mind I am only level 16. I'm sure there's at least twice as much that could be done by the time you hit 50.

 

FIX PLEASE.

Edited December 30, 2011 by vonblick

[Xanxari]

i think everyone agree that the insane amount of abilties we need to bind is well, insane.....

 

Bottom bar 1

key 1 - Force Scream

key 2 - Smash

key 3 - Crushing blow

key 4 - Vicious slash

key 5 - Rage

key 6 - Ravage

key ctrl1 - Chilling Scream

key ctrl2 - Intercede

key ctrl3 - Rakata Medpack

key ctrl4 - Enduring pain

key ctrl5 - Relic

key ctrl6 - Rakata Attack Adrenal

 

 

Bottom bar 2

key Q - assult

key E - Sundering assult

key Z - Retaliate

key ctrlQ - Sweeping slash

key ctrlE - Disruption

key ctrlZ - Unleash

mouse 4 - Force charge

mouse 5 - Force choke

mouse 3 - Sabre throw

ctrl mouse 5 - Force push

ctrl mouse 4 - Backhand

ctrl mouse 3 - Vicous throw

 

 

Right bar

F1 - Taunt

F2 - Threatening Scream

F3 - Saber ward

F4 - Invincible

F5 - Guard

F6 - Intimidating Roar

and the last 6 spots are for mount, buffs and hatred. i even got 3 skills on the right bar.....

 

 

now atm. i have 30 keys bind to a button. and i need all of them in PvP and in PvE, my biggest problem here is i dont have Savage Kick or Pommel strike on my bars anymore, first they dont work on goldstar or higher mobs, = they are useless in Raids, and they dont work in PvP...... now these two abilities Savage kick and Pomme Strike was so nice and awesome to look at when you executet them on your way to lvl 50, not to mention they did some really good damage.... that i want them back and in use on boss fight and in PvP. but atm. i dont have room for them at all..... im locked at 30 keybindings.

 

 

here is some of my problems.

 

my ½ key left of 1,2,3,4,5 is bind to a ticket for ingame support, when im in a hurry and i press the 1 key my fat fingers sometimes hit the ½, and now i have a big fat ticket in the middle of my screen i have to close the ticket and confirm i want to close the ticket, in the middle of a PvP fight or a boss fight, = ppl or myself die..... fix this *********** problem will you and let us unbind this *********** key....

 

 

my < key to the right off my left shift, and to the left of Z is unbindable, and for me thats is two more key bindings i could add to my core abilities and get 32 keybindings vs 30..... lets us bind it ffs.

 

next im left handet so for me i use my thumb to press ctrl and shift or alt is just not an option for me but any way i have 30 *********** keybindings. and i still need more

 

i would like to have Savage kick and Pommel strike on key bindings, i would like to have andother Adrenal on keybinding to and anoter relic and that would give me a total of 34 abilities i need at hand rdy to press when i need them.

 

you need to fix this Bioware, i played a Mage in rift and im used to many keybindings and insane rotation of 12 or more core abilities and over 24 keybindings to get the perfect dps, but this is just retardet, not only do you have a limit on most abilities with rage but allmost all of them also got 4.5 sec, 6 sec, 12 sec, 15 sec, 30 sec, 45 sec, 1 min, 2 min, 3 min. cooldowns on them and its to much, can you plz reduce the number of abilities to 24 - 28 out of 34. or force us to use the talent tree so we can reduce or replace old abilities with new abilities????

 

hell a macro program would fix this! but you need to fix it!

Edited December 30, 2011 by Xanxari

[SageGaspar]

I got used to it and I don't think it's so bad now, but yeah if you want to play optimally I use about 15 buttons in each and every fight while tanking.

 

We have the attack that does more damage to stunned and another attack that does more damage to immobilized/snared. Dunno that we need both, I think they could roll those together.

 

We have the two basic rage builders, could easily be rolled together so that the jugg version replaces the warrior version.

 

That'd go a good way for me. I think a good number to hit would be ten attack-type buttons that are used in every fight, and then the taunts and temp buffs and such.

 

For the record, I too played EQ2 as a main warlock, did hardmode raiding, had alts of pretty much every class and I don't think having two full hotbars of buttons that you push all the time really helps with the depth of the game. The goal should be to make you manage rage (which I do not have to do while tanking), not to manage GCDs.

 

There were specs in Rift that only used ten buttons and were as deep as anything in EQ2.

Edited December 30, 2011 by SageGaspar

[GodofThisWorld]

I tend to agree with the OP. While it isn't too overwhelming for me yet (Lv. 30 atm) the abilities just keep on coming. I think part of the problem is that every ability seems to have some sort of use (although that sounds like a good thing). A friend I know, for example, is leveling an DPS Assassin and he can ignore a few abilities that are obviously meant for Assassin tanks.

 

I know everyone has their own system that works for them, but I find that grouping abilities together can help you remember your keybinds when you have a high amount of abilities. I use key modifiers to group 'similar" abilities to single keys. I have both shift and ctrl mapped to two easy to access keys on the side of my mouse, which enable me to have 4 abilities per key (base key, shift+, ctrl+, and both shift and ctrl +) by clicking these buttons.

 

You limit the amount of keys needed of course, but you still need to remember the same amount of keybinds, so I could see how others could be even more confused by this system.

[Mitsch]

key ctrl3 - Rakata Medpack

key ctrl4 - Enduring pain

key ctrl5 - Relic

key ctrl6 - Rakata Attack Adrenal

F2 - Threatening Scream

F3 - Saber ward

F4 - Invincible

F5 - Guard

F6 - Intimidating Roar

 

WHAT?

Is this for PvE or PvP?

 

You seem to tryhard bind everything. It makes no sens for me to hotkey 3 minute defensive cooldowns. You can still click them. If that would be too late your gameplay or communication with your healer sucks.

 

This is what my center bars look like.

http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/807/bottomfp.jpg

I'm using 1-7, vrft, mousewheel updown, mouse4+5 and ctrlmouse4. Mouse 3 for autowalk. What you can't see is my AoE slow on ctr+r but it's on a sidebar and only for PvP scenarios.

Everything else I'm clicking - even vicious slash. If there's only one mob around there are always 2 seconds to spare for clicking it and not moving around.

 

So I have to defensive cooldowns and taunts and also my useables/consumeables as well as 1-2 other abilities on the left bar.

 

I bet I have less troubles in playing my tank than you - because I know what and how I use my abilities and don't drive myself mad when admitting I'm still clicking some things.

 

Clicking stuff doesn't make you a retard. Saying or thinking that makes you one.

[Xanxari]

Mitsch, i used all of them in both PvE and PVP, relic and adrenal are good for for the start of the fight.... or you will loose agro fast.

 

i know you say you can click with the mouse. on 3min CDs but mouse clicking is old school and completly out of date, you need every ability you have on a keybind, so you can respond fast to any **** up moments that will show up in the game.

 

i dont know what else to say, i need them , and i also need 4 more key bindings if i want it to be perfect, and i dont settle for less... if i can improve i will improve, and mouse clicking plz, that is just way to slow, and will get you killed.

[Mitsch]

Mitsch, i used all of them in both PvE and PVP, relic and adrenal are good for for the start of the fight.... or you will loose agro fast.

Then you either are massively undergeared or you're doing it wrong.

I never had any problems with single target aggro even though my mates had 2-3 better items than me.

And if you pull a trinket or your adrenaline in the first 5 seconds of the fight, where you saberthrow, charge and stack your debuff to 5 stacks, you're plainly doing it wrong. After those 4 skills and positioning yourself you have the time to click and will benefit the most by having the buff for ravage and ragedumps. Any DD challenging your aggro in the first 5 seconds should also be kicked. End of story.

 

but mouse clicking is old school and completly out of date

Played WoW for too long?

I never had one situation where I said "OH MAN IF I HAD THIS ON HOTKEY!!!".

 

and mouse clicking plz, that is just way to slow, and will get you killed.

It's the same bullcrap again. If you die due to clicking you're just bad. End of discussion.

You don't need ragedumper on hotkey. You don't need major cooldowns on hotkeys.

 

If you're complaining about too much skills, then get rid of such things like the one on disabled mobs and the one skill against slowed ones. You don't *********** need them. Binding them is a waste of time.

 

This fad "OOH YOU CLICK YOU'RE BAD!!" is just so plain wrong on every aspect that it hurts my brain seeing you claiming this bullcrap over and over again.

 

You could put your energy into making up your mind about what you essentially need and what not. You won't get any further with discussing "oh clicking is so bad" on forums.

Just get over it!

[Nekronus]

Dear me, tantrum much?

[Waztar]

Just to do a run down of our abilities and see where or what we can cut/trim some fat.

 

Assault: (Sundering Assault should replace this (spec to remove cooldown))

 

Vicious Slash: (I'd like to see Crushing Blow replace this, change the sunder part to use 0-3 rage as the damage modifier. Give the sunder part to Pommel Strike / Savage Kick)

 

Smash: (beautiful ability, wish we could spec to increase range)

 

Force Scream: (another perfectly fine ability, wish we could spec to make it an AOE. (no need for Sweeping Slash then))

 

Pommel Strike / Savage Kick: (The incapacitated part of these abilities make it useless while tanking, perhaps change it to something like Crushing Blow, if the mob has 5 sunders we can use it?)

 

Saber Throw / Vicious Throw: (combine the two abilities?)

 

Intimidating Roar / Chilling Scream: (combine the two?)

 

Force Charge / Obliterate / Intercede: (The three don't need to be combined, it would cut down on buttons though.)

 

Feel free to critique and add your own opinion.

Edited December 31, 2011 by Waztar

[Urielx]

I would definitely love some UI consolidation more then anything else. Like some other people mentioned on a lot of the fights I spend more time looking at my bars and cooldowns rather then at the fight itself, which leads to problems.

 

I'm still playing around with my "optimal" setup, but one of my newest things that I should have done a long time ago is simply taking assault off my hotbar. Rage is hardly ever a problem, and i still have it on right click if i really need it.

[Daeada]

I'm still playing around with my "optimal" setup, but one of my newest things that I should have done a long time ago is simply taking assault off my hotbar. Rage is hardly ever a problem, and i still have it on right click if i really need it.

 

It won't be on right click if you remove it from the 1 slot, afaik.

[Tyerion]

I just reached level 30 Jugg Immortal and I ran out of hotkeys. I use 1234qerfzxc with the Shift of all of those except Shift1 and Shift2. This has my whole 2 bottom bars filled up but honestly I only need the cooldown ones on the bottom bar (which we have a lot of). I can only imagine what is going to happen at 50.

 

The specials that I have a problem justifying using a bind for are the ones that are situational, but those are the ones that are most time sensitive and would benifit the most from a bound key. I think my problem is I don't click anything anymore but I'm going to have to start getting used to clicking a few things again.

 

I feel bad for any tank that s new to MMO's trying to pick this class up and is clicking and keyboard turning. The first 20 levels make you think things are going to be simple then BAM! complexity galore. This class would be a nightmare without keybinds, and it shows in a lot of the tanks I heal with my IA healer (another class with too many specials). Too many keyboard turning Jug tanks out there mouse clicking and unable to keep the focus of one mob much less 3 or 4 making my healing life a nightmare and my repair bills high (or maybe I just fail at healing )

 

Not sure what the answer is, but I really like how challenging this class is and don't want it to change too much. I'm feeling like our 2 rage building specials are good, but we have too many rage spending abilities. Maybe instead of getting new specials morph some of the low level specials into something better. Like take Ravage and have backhand replace it. Although as soon as I wrote that I realized that Ravage does generate rage and backhand doesn't .

[Xanxari]

wow aesome to get a reply removed when you respond to a kid like mitsch. god i love how there system works.....

 

 

not to mention all the bugs this game got. hard mode operation Enternity vault is buged at 3rd boss. = you cant complete it hell its even bug at nightmare lvl..... this game is dead in a month! crap support ingame and on forums and releasing a game that's still in beta says it all......

[Finis]

I made this to show my assassin tank friend, he laughed at me.

 

I love my Immortal spec Jug, but I would love SOMETHING to streamline the gameplay for it. I spend so much time watching my hotbar for reatives and cooldowns, I miss most of the game itself. I'm not fighting jedi as a lord of the Sith, I'm playing whack-a-mole as buttons light up.

 

http://www.shadowlandbbs.net/swtor/sylinui.jpg

 

I use a Naga mouse btw, 1-6, q, e, t, f, and g are lefthand from WASD, 7-12 is on the naga mouse with my thumb.

 

I'm 40 now, and had to find a place for Crushing blow. I replaced Vicious Slash and moved it over to 9.

 

edit: I am aware I got some of the cd timers wrong, I was doing it from memory, sorry. Was just to illustrate the point anyway.

Edited December 31, 2011 by Finis

[DymondKing]

One viable option is to replace Assault with SA, and change Sundering Assault to generate 2 or 3 additional rage and threat. This frees 1 button.

 

Another option is to allow Sweeping Slash to generate rage rather than cost it.

Which would solve the second problem of Juggernaut's AoE threat being low. (Even if its just an Immortal talent tree buff)

 

 

I've played nothing but Juggernaut, even in beta, and though a lot of the abilities are designed to 'add flavor', the majority of abilities don't activate, aren't usable on elites, but are required for whatever reason.

 

I enjoy a class that has different styles of play to it -but I, as a player, do not want the class to be so complex and confusing as to have so many buttons to push (the ones that do anything) and threat to still be an issue.

 

Have a good assortment of abilities that are necessary and useful. Remove the excess.

 

tl;dr quality > quantity.

[Mitsch]

wow aesome to get a reply removed when you respond to a kid like mitsch. god i love how there system works.....

 

You're kind of lucky to be still able to post with all those insults.

Don't put it to the test, my friend.

[karlblackdog]

This is my first MMO. I'm a lvl 41 Immortal. Love tanking, love the class, have done all flashpoints so far, have pvpd, want more of this class.

 

It is hard, but rewarding. I don't want it to become easier (since I suspect I would steamroll any boss or player ) but I agree that many abilities feel unused. Some should be merged, but careful! I feel that in more capable hands (and somewhat in my noobish ones) it can be a deadly specc. I do not want this class to get nerfed.

 

And I love the visuals of it I may add. Really fitting thematically and with the story/style/atmosphere. No dancing, no gadgets, no crap, not too much hokus pocus. Just a big, mean, juggernaut .

 

I never use the first basic anymore btw (assault was it?) sundering thingy and choke seem to always be enough. But I do build rage passively. And enrage for emergencies. Not that often.

 

Anyway love it. And now that I'm past the hardest part, I have been hardened through fire. Like true sith^^

 

See yah ingame!

[Ythera]

why automate the game. you asking to take the player out of the game and just watch a video with that.

 

Honestly what I loved about KOTOR was that you could already streamline abilities. It wouldn't be "drooling over the keyboard" -- we'd still have to adapt to the current situation.

[Chutneydan]

I think that the Juggernaut is a great class and thoroughly enjoy playing mine even with all the ability bloat which is definitely there even if some people are happier with more key binds than others.

 

Given that I enjoy playing it i'm very happy to sit and wait clicking madly at reactive and defensive cool downs while using my razer naga with ctrl and alt to fire off abilities as and when they become necessary.

 

We are in the enviable position of waiting for buffs/streamlining - a place i'd much rather be than be seen as 'OP' and cringing while waiting for the nerfs to get me.

 

tl;dr - Jugg has lots of abilities, wait.

[WielandExiles]

I can understand people wanting challenge, no faceroll and all, I can understand that after "the other game", streamlining has become a dirty word, but I'd argue that resisting changes to the juggernaut ability bloat is actually detrimental to your cause. Complexity, challenge, skill, are not about the number of buttons you have to push (when it is well above 20...). Do you really think adding yet another rage burner with a 27s cooldown, or another conditional attack only usable against female opponents with a wilpower debuff every 42s would make a more engaging gameplay ?

 

"Skill" is about choice, planning, ressource management - adjusting your rotation depending on the availability of incoming rage for example, beeing able to weave movement/CC/interrupt/utility (and juggernauts are tons of those) into a damage rotation, threat vs survivability tradeoffs (for tanks), using the right skill at the right moment.

 

The infuriating thing with the juggernaut gameplay is that those elements are actually there, but buried under a clutter of unpolished, redundant fluff.

What strikes me after reading this thread, is that people, whatever their pro or anti stance in this debate, have their ui/keyboard bindings/attention so much buried under that ton of tedious cooldowns that they actually lose sight of the "big picture" : many people here either admit they disregard, or condemn to the chopping block skills such assault, vicious slash, or ravage - although in my opinion, those skills are the only ones that are actually interesting gameplay-wise, because after you have religiously mashed every cooldown at your disposition as soon as they were available, those precious few GCD's are where you actually have a *choice* regarding your rage management.

 

Frankly, should they implement a macro system identical to the one they did in Rift, you could probably bind every off-GCD skill+situational skill+most if not all of the rage burners in the order described in the guide on the same single key, and that you could (doing the same with rage generators, offensive or defensive CD's ...) play with less than a bar of shortcuts in a quasi-optimal way. A ton of rage burners on cooldowns with a clear cut priority system that could be macroed on a single key as soon as the option becomes available, this is certainly not engaging gameplay, and that will make the Juggernaut the most shallow class once the ui option become available if/when Bioware goes this route.

 

TLDR, the Juggernaut needs a reworked skill system, with more significant choices about whther you'll prioritize burst, sustained damage, survivability, ressource conservation and less redundant cooldowns that are too numerous and a no brainer to use. Achieving this is imho the only way to ensure a challenging and intelligent gameplay once Bioware puts macros/add-ons in place (and they will).

[kikleon]

I still don't get what people are complaining about. There could be improvements but I wouldn't complain that its not perfect, nothing ever is.

 

Pommel strike is used to keep other high damage abilities available against future targets should the current one be stunned.

 

Kick is useless (unless other classes passively apply a slow) and should also be useable against stunned mobs.

 

Viscious deals with issue of low rage capping. You can't get to a point where you have rage for scream/smash/crushing/retal and viscious. Say your at 10 rage after sundering, you scream down to 6, gain one and use retal to use it(being hit), use crushing down to 3, sundering up to 5, smash down to 2.... now you use assault to gain rage again. With a higher rage cap eventually you can get to the point where you can use the rage abilities and have left over to viscious before using assault again. You can fit in visciou's if you charge (get knocked back) as you get 3 rage and possibly a free scream, and saber throw gains you 3 rage)

 

Assault/Ravage, if you don't use these you are playing the class wrong. There is no way you can keep up with smash/scream/crushing off of rage from being hit and sunderings alone.