DPS parser statistics, maybe the nerf wasn't so bad.

[Crittlesticks]

Dummy dps is dps in a vacuum.

 

Real dps is much different. Operatives are effectively almost 30% behind marauders and sorcs. Because in encounters you have to move, target switch, etc...something that makes operative dps a liability.

 

Other classes also have to move and target switch, we can also use our abilities while moving, if within melee range of the boss. While sorcs and mercenaries cannot use a good portion of theirs since they are required to cast or channel.

 

While some classes like Marauders do have higher sustained damage from DoT's, operatives burst DPS is higher, making up for some of the lost sustained DPS when transitioning between targets.

 

30% is an extremely inflated number that I feel you are pulling out of thin air, again with no logical reasoning behing it or numbers to back your claim. Similar to some of the other previous posts you have made.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Crittlesticks

[GeoLager]

Other classes also have to move and target switch, we can also use our abilities while moving, if within melee range of the boss. While sorcs and mercenaries cannot use a good portion of theirs since they are required to cast or channel.

 

While some classes like Marauders do have higher sustained damage from DoT's, operatives burst DPS is higher, making up for some of the lost sustained DPS when transitioning between targets.

 

30% is an extremely inflated number that I feel you are pulling out of thin air, again with no logical reasoning behing it or numbers to back your claim. Similar to some of the other previous posts you have made.

 

The 30% is from the new explosive conflict parse from PTS where uptime for an operative is almost perfect and operatives only end up parsing around 1k.

[Crittlesticks]

The 30% is from the new explosive conflict parse from PTS where uptime for an operative is almost perfect and operatives only end up parsing around 1k.

 

I would love to see this data, I have been running the new explosive conflict content and I can tell you that I was pulling over 1k DPS consistently, and I don't give myself the delusion that I am doing everything perfectly. I think that the people from which you acquired this data may be disillusioned as to what the definition of perfect uptime is.

[chuixupu]

I just tried out Concealment on the training dummy (yes, in a vacuum, but I only want to compare my capable damage between the two specs at the moment) and it does appear that I can pull slightly higher numbers than with Lethality. I could average out around 1350 and peak at 1750 with a relic active. On the other hand, I am having more energy issues than I every remember having, so I need to work on balancing that out. It'll take more testing with actual encounters to see if the mobility of Lethality wins over Concealment still or not.

[Crittlesticks]

I just tried out Concealment on the training dummy (yes, in a vacuum, but I only want to compare my capable damage between the two specs at the moment) and it does appear that I can pull slightly higher numbers than with Lethality. I could average out around 1350 and peak at 1750 with a relic active. On the other hand, I am having more energy issues than I every remember having, so I need to work on balancing that out. It'll take more testing with actual encounters to see if the mobility of Lethality wins over Concealment still or not.

 

I would try weaving in a few more blaster rifle shots. With all three shots that come out each time, the damage is actually not all that bad. Plus if you do it fairly regularly it keeps your energy up a long time, since you stay in maximum energy regen range.

[Russlem]

I would try weaving in a few more blaster rifle shots. With all three shots that come out each time, the damage is actually not all that bad. Plus if you do it fairly regularly it keeps your energy up a long time, since you stay in maximum energy regen range.

 

I think this is a key problem across all classes except Sorcerers. People look at their zero resource ability (Rapid Shots, Rifle Shot, etc.) and think "zero DPS", when in fact these abilities regularly do about 50-60% of what a cost-ability would do put in the same filler slot after the top priority abilities are already on CD (like Overload shot).

[AnEvilBus]

i wanna know if we are in 5% of sith mar

[Russlem]

i wanna know if we are in 5% of sith mar

 

Until reliable boss parses from over 100 sources for each class are posted on a WoW-meter-online style website, we won't know how the classes compared against one another in live-fire situations with hard numbers. Until then, the sample sizes are too small to come to definitive conclusions. Based on the dummy-data coming out currently, Operatives are about 6.3% within Anni Mara (Carnage and Rage specs haven't been defined yet, but have been consistently rejected as viable raiding specs until this patch based on napkin math done by the theorycrafters) but this doesn't take into considering the 5 stack armor debuff which heavily favors Concealment OPs as they deal significantly more physical damage than Anni Maras and also magnifying the value of the debuff through Acid Blade as armor penetration has an exponential stat weight. All things considered its most likely that OPs in a raid setting under ideal conditions (no movement, perfect uptime) are about 3% behind Anni Maras and tied with most other classes except Deception Spec Assassins who are currently significantly behind based on parses.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Russlem

[Fallenturtle]

Until reliable boss parses from over 100 sources for each class are posted on a WoW-meter-online style website, we won't know how the classes compared against one another in live-fire situations with hard numbers. Until then, the sample sizes are too small to come to definitive conclusions. Based on the dummy-data coming out currently, Operatives are about 6.3% within Anni Mara (Carnage and Rage specs haven't been defined yet, but have been consistently rejected as viable raiding specs until this patch based on napkin math done by the theorycrafters) but this doesn't take into considering the 5 stack armor debuff which heavily favors Concealment OPs as they deal significantly more physical damage than Anni Maras and also magnifying the value of the debuff through Acid Blade as armor penetration has an exponential stat weight. All things considered its most likely that OPs in a raid setting under ideal conditions (no movement, perfect uptime) are about 3% behind Anni Maras and tied with most other classes except Deception Spec Assassins who are currently significantly behind based on parses.

 

I don't think your math quite adds up. With the 5 stacks of armor debuffs (from another class) the marauder will still hit for more. Most of their damage does come from the bleeds yes, but the attacks that put the bleeds on the target are either Kenetic or energy(i forget which).

 

Also, when you compare our 30% armor penetration for 15 seconds vs a mercenary, who has 35% up at all times AND shoots 2.5 missiles to lower the targets armor by 20% and is the main focus in their rotation, they come out on top. Their missiles also do kinetic damage.

 

Unfortunately, I don't think that there will ever be the "perfect" conditions for us. Using the first boss in the new operation as an example, when he goes berzerk, you have to stay outside of 5m from him in order to avoid massive aoe damage. Also, when he jumps we are having to run back in once the tank's picked him up vs every other melee class that has a closing mechanism. That being said, I think a lot of our complaints are the fact that we're a melee oriented class with a few ranged abilities and no closing mechanism.

 

I believe, other than the ramp up time on lethality, the reason it's falling so far behind is it's lack of TA generation within the tree, least that is my observation.

 

It is a period of "wait and see" for all of us as we have to wait on parses coming from everyone, both in a vaccum state and in reality.

[Russlem]

I don't think your math quite adds up. With the 5 stacks of armor debuffs (from another class) the marauder will still hit for more. Most of their damage does come from the bleeds yes, but the attacks that put the bleeds on the target are either Kenetic or energy(i forget which).

 

Also, when you compare our 30% armor penetration for 15 seconds vs a mercenary, who has 35% up at all times AND shoots 2.5 missiles to lower the targets armor by 20% and is the main focus in their rotation, they come out on top. Their missiles also do kinetic damage.

 

Unfortunately, I don't think that there will ever be the "perfect" conditions for us. Using the first boss in the new operation as an example, when he goes berzerk, you have to stay outside of 5m from him in order to avoid massive aoe damage. Also, when he jumps we are having to run back in once the tank's picked him up vs every other melee class that has a closing mechanism. That being said, I think a lot of our complaints are the fact that we're a melee oriented class with a few ranged abilities and no closing mechanism.

 

I believe, other than the ramp up time on lethality, the reason it's falling so far behind is it's lack of TA generation within the tree, least that is my observation.

 

It is a period of "wait and see" for all of us as we have to wait on parses coming from everyone, both in a vaccum state and in reality.

 

I said the Marauder will still be ahead by about 3%. The current parses are favoring Anni Mara at a 6.3% damage advantage (1400 DPS vs 1500 DPS). The math isn't available anymore because they removed it in Cata, the scaling on armor penetration is exponential and affects the stat weight of every other DPS stat (surge, crit, power) exponentially as well. Given the exponential scale of ArPenn and the fact that OPs likely have 50% (the breakpoint in WoW where it immediately outweighed every other stat) its mathematically impossible for Mara's to keep their 6.3% advantage. Compound that with the fact that the vast majority of Anni Marauder damage (bleed ticks from Deadly Saber and Rupture) doesn't even benefit from armor penetration, it means the 20% they get from raid debuffs helps them less than it helps an Operative. Its almost a mathematical certainty that we're well within 5% of Anni Marauder (the currently favored top DPS of 1.2) most likely within 3% when raid debuffs are factored. Raiding isn't about solo damage without debuffs. Raid buffs are a group effort, its why Rogues were dominant melee class throughout WoW's history up until ICC despite offering no group utility: their build outperformed when other classes buffed them.

 

I won't comment on Mercenaries, however I did mention that they currently have the best armor penetration. What I can comment on is the DPS parses post 1.2 for mercenaries have almost been universally negative by mercenary players, and really ranged DPS players across the board. Snipers have been reporting parses of only 1200 DPS. At the minimum, our class is performing exactly on par with every other DPS class in the game. What the hardcore Operatives have been saying about Operatives not nearly being as useless as the chicken little screamers claim they are has at the bare, bare, bare, minimum been utterly vindicated by current parses. The argument for Operative has always been that our DPS has been low even under ideal circumstances and now that that position has been dismantled people are looking for new ways to justify their complaining about the class. At the very least these people now have to recognize that if ANYTHING, Concealment DPS is on the high end of class balance based on the numbers released over the past 2 days.

 

If you want to complain about mechanical issues during boss fights, I seriously don't want to hear it until we see some real parses from raiding guilds in all boss fights. It doesn't matter that we don't have a gap closer, neither do Powertech DPS. But these two melee classes have something Juggs, Maras, and Assassins don't have: high damage abilities that function at 30 yards. Operatives have Frag Grenade, Corrosive Dart, Rifle Shot, Snipe and Explosive Probe for fights where you have to stay out of melee. Three of these are instant and can be cycled into your rotation for fights where you only temporarily must leave melee range. Explosive Probe can still be used if you're savvy with your movement and its our 3rd hardest hitting ability. Say what you want about our class, this is an advantage that no Assassin, Marauder or Juggernaut can claim. Stop marginalizing your advantages over something as silly as a gap closer. Some bosses favor ranged, some favor melee. Deal with it. Only BAD guilds replace players because a fight favors one archetype over the other. I raided sponsored WoW throughout WotLK and part of Cata, this isn't the old days where classes had 20% or greater disadvantages between each other your guild CAN compensate for mechanics that don't favor you.

[Jaidn]

Considering that Marauders have higher DPS, a gap closer, higher survivability and group buffs, yes, there is a problem. There is no point in taking a DPS Operative over a Marauder. Yes, Marauders are DPS only, but that shouldn't matter, as we have already established there shouldn't be a hybrid tax.

 

Healing/off-healing isn't a DPS Op's job. It isn't needed and if that happens, it means someone else isn't doing their's.

 

But if we want to compare classes that can heal/DPS, fine, let's look at Sorcs. Even with their nerf, most parses that I've seen have them coming at or near the top in sustained DPS, and they offer ranged as well as utility such as friendly pull. They can also off-heal better since bubble is instant cast.

 

Also note that you had to re-itemize a lot of your gear in order to have somewhat comparable DPS. The fact is, Operatives have possibly THE worst itemized sets in the game, which means that in order for us to see the same increase in stats, we need to farm multiple sets and remod them which can be difficult for a lot of people to do.

 

I do appreciate the numbers that you put up, and the information is very helpful. But as I have said many times, being "viable" does not mean being "useful".

 

Where is everyone getting their info from? Now granted I'm still a bp and a mainhand away from being full rakata and we clear EV 16 man NM, and and KP usualy with no timers hit. Now i tested last night with the highest single target spec marauders have, annihilation and was pulling about the same as you guys 1400-1500. Now I'm not claiming I'm the best marauder out there but I'm not nearly the worst. Maybe the maras you see have way better gear, kinda hard since 1.2 just landed. What kind of numbers you guys are seeing from other maras? I haven't seen any mara post numbers much higher than mine.

[Russlem]

Where is everyone getting their info from? Now granted I'm still a bp and a mainhand away from being full rakata and we clear EV 16 man NM, and and KP usualy with no timers hit. Now i tested last night with the highest single target spec marauders have, annihilation and was pulling about the same as you guys 1400-1500. Now I'm not claiming I'm the best marauder out there but I'm not nearly the worst. Maybe the maras you see have way better gear, kinda hard since 1.2 just landed. What kind of numbers you guys are seeing from other maras? I haven't seen any mara post numbers much higher than mine.

 

1500 is about the normal DPS I've been seeing from the Marauder community and that's on the high end. It looks like at your best, Mara's have barely 100 DPS advantage under absolutely ideal conditions and only self-buffed. The problem is that for the past month the Operative forum has been a cesspool of the worst kind of whining and complaining you've ever seen and now that the parses are out and the numbers are literally 500 DPS better than everyone was claiming, lots of people who have their throats stuffed with crow are trying to justify their incessant complaining for the last month.

Edited April 14, 2012 by Russlem

[Rumblegut]

Maybe if you're competing against yourself it isn't so bad.

 

Throw in a marauder or assassin into the mix, you become an injured horse in that race.

 

You know what they do to injured horses? They put them down for good.

 

Unless the horse has proved itself to be a stong racer, then it is put out to be a breeder and makes the owners a lot of money. Seriously, its true.

[Rumblegut]

I am med speced so obviously I don't have the other trees' damage boosts. But I can say for certain that it takes me considerably longer to kill the same strongs and elites after the patch. Much of this is coming from the extra cooldown on backstab, but loosing 3% crit rate didn't help either.

 

And I have been noticing I seem to be running out of energy way faster in flashpoints then I used to.

[Ryemfoh]

1500 is about the normal DPS I've been seeing from the Marauder community and that's on the high end. It looks like at your best, Mara's have barely 100 DPS advantage under absolutely ideal conditions and only self-buffed. The problem is that for the past month the Operative forum has been a cesspool of the worst kind of whining and complaining you've ever seen and now that the parses are out and the numbers are literally 500 DPS better than everyone was claiming, lots of people who have their throats stuffed with crow are trying to justify their incessant complaining for the last month.

 

Woohoo! I found a new bro to mance

[Hextasy]

This mentality is exactly what I am talking about. I don't understand how people can really compare or expect an operatives DPS to be exactly the same or higher than a class like a marauder. The Marauder class has one purpose, to DPS. Operatives on the other hand can if needed help top off a tank, or throw a heal or two if everyone is taking burst AOE damage, while marauders cannot, same goes for snipers. You cannot realistically compare a pure DPS class to a hybrid and expect the pure damage numbers to be equal, how would that be fair for people that play Marauders or Snipers? As for assassins...given that both players are playing at the same skill level, the DPS increase that I have been seeing were minimal at best between an operative and an assassin.

Wrong. Hybrids and pure DPS should have equal output in their primary role. If you want class balance you want every DPS to be equal, and you give each DPS unique utility. Our utility is infiltrate (pretty damn useless), and indeed as you point out for example help with healing. If you don't like your utility, consider to reroll, but it should not affect your main efficiency: to DPS.

 

I understand where your frustration is coming from, but 5% is not WAY behind another DPS class

Right so wait a second hold it right here you claim you are a hardcore raider and you clear end content on the highest difficulty and you claim on progress 5% less damage than median does not matter? Then you are not a hardcore raider simple as that.

 

Because you know when that does not matter in "that other game"? If you bring utility. You claim our utility is off healing, I claim other ranged DPS (who can also DPS from range) perform said healing just as well, or better. With new legacy system all you need is a level 50 operative character on same realm for the buff, so you can now clear KP and EV on NM with your operative player on their sorc/BH or marauder (a mix of that in your raid team and you are settled).

 

If you say like some other person: I am operative and I do more DPS than our marauder and you follow bring the player not the class then what is the sensible reply to that from a hardcore raiding point of view? You put the marauder social or gkick, and you reroll marauder. If you'd do that right now your marauder would also give the +5% crit buff. You probably already have sorc/BH to off-heal.

Edited April 14, 2012 by Hextasy

[Russlem]

Right so wait a second hold it right here you claim you are a hardcore raider and you clear end content on the highest difficulty and you claim on progress 5% less damage than median does not matter? Then you are not a hardcore raider simple as that.

 

Contrary to your claim, real hardcore raiders don't cry for 3 months on the forums over a 5% damage difference. Contrary to your claim, real hardcore guilds usually have behavioral contracts in which spending 3 months crying on the forums results in a guild kick. Contrary to your claim, real hardcore guilds don't bench someone solely over a 5% damage difference.

 

Because you know when that does not matter in "that other game"? If you bring utility. You claim our utility is off healing, I claim other ranged DPS (who can also DPS from range) perform said healing just as well, or better. With new legacy system all you need is a level 50 operative character on same realm for the buff, so you can now clear KP and EV on NM with your operative player on their sorc/BH or marauder (a mix of that in your raid team and you are settled).

 

You know when that doesn't matter in "that other game"? When the damage difference is 5%. Elemental Shamans underperformed throughout ICC and it never affected their representation in raids vs. their representation in population statistics and their damage difference was greater than 5%.

 

If you say like some other person: I am operative and I do more DPS than our marauder and you follow bring the player not the class then what is the sensible reply to that from a hardcore raiding point of view? You put the marauder social or gkick, and you reroll marauder. If you'd do that right now your marauder would also give the +5% crit buff. You probably already have sorc/BH to off-heal.

 

If this is what your "hardcore" guild currently expects of its players, you are not currently the top guild on your server and if you are you won't be after 1.3 when the dungeon finder increases PvE playtimes (as right now its dominated by PvP). This kind of draconian crap doesn't fly with skilled players who prefer not to be treated like servants of the guild.

Edited April 14, 2012 by Russlem

[SammuelSK]

Lets assume all classes, ranged and melee do the exact same damage 1500 on a targetting dummy. Now lets put them into a boss fight.

 

Ranged has an uptime of for the sake of arguement 90% which allows them to do 1350.

 

Melee with gapclosers lets put them at 80% which lets them do 1200.

 

Melee without a gapcloser well.. lets give them 70% because they at least have blaster fire that puts them at 1050.

 

You are doing your parses in a bubble and outside of reality.

[Malanoth]

Wrong. Hybrids and pure DPS should have equal output in their primary role. If you want class balance you want every DPS to be equal, and you give each DPS unique utility. Our utility is infiltrate (pretty damn useless), and indeed as you point out for example help with healing. If you don't like your utility, consider to reroll, but it should not affect your main efficiency: to DPS.

 

Right so wait a second hold it right here you claim you are a hardcore raider and you clear end content on the highest difficulty and you claim on progress 5% less damage than median does not matter? Then you are not a hardcore raider simple as that.

 

Because you know when that does not matter in "that other game"? If you bring utility. You claim our utility is off healing, I claim other ranged DPS (who can also DPS from range) perform said healing just as well, or better. With new legacy system all you need is a level 50 operative character on same realm for the buff, so you can now clear KP and EV on NM with your operative player on their sorc/BH or marauder (a mix of that in your raid team and you are settled).

 

If you say like some other person: I am operative and I do more DPS than our marauder and you follow bring the player not the class then what is the sensible reply to that from a hardcore raiding point of view? You put the marauder social or gkick, and you reroll marauder. If you'd do that right now your marauder would also give the +5% crit buff. You probably already have sorc/BH to off-heal.

 

C'mon Hextasy. DPS within 5% of each other is class balance in an MMO where there are hundreds of factors that affect our damage. All you are doing (like so many other so called hardcore wannabe raiders) is endorsing a very ill-conceived perception that anything above a 2% dps difference = a gimp class. Get over it. All you've done is shown that the community bandwagon is an addictive place. Everyone wants in, but doesn't stop to think why.

 

I have to agree with Russlem.

[Hextasy]

Contrary to your claim, real hardcore raiders don't cry for 3 months on the forums over a 5% damage difference. Contrary to your claim, real hardcore guilds usually have behavioral contracts in which spending 3 months crying on the forums results in a guild kick. Contrary to your claim, real hardcore guilds don't bench someone solely over a 5% damage difference.

Of course they would not bench a person if they can't (no replacement or alt available) or don't have to (if they are overgearing the content) but on progress either they get a player who is of equal skill and has a better class which fits in, or they can call it a night cause they won't make it (they will try it with a less good composition). That is why hardcore raiders have geared alts. KIN raiders mages on Spine HC had IIRC 3 out of 6 alt mages with legendary. Class stacking you will soon see in this game too, if not already. If not, what can I say... why raid hardcore, with optimize everything, theorycrafting on your class, having best hardware, spending so much time but not optimize that aspect? It is plain retarded. But you don't wanna hear that of course...

 

You know when that doesn't matter in "that other game"? When the damage difference is 5%. Elemental Shamans underperformed throughout ICC and it never affected their representation in raids vs. their representation in population statistics and their damage difference was greater than 5%.

If you believe 5% does not matter you have no clue what you are talking about. We were talking hardcore raiding; not casual raiding. Casual raiders don't optimize (well enough), for them it may be OK to take someone who is not performing 100% (because they are ****, or their class is ****, or their computer is ****, or whatever is ****). If you take for example Halfus HC you HAD to take disc priests to heal that pre-nerf. If you take Spine HC you had to stack arcane mages with legendary. Now, how many shamans did Paragon have on their Rag world first kill? And don't give me that crap they don't have anyone with a shaman main

 

If this is what your "hardcore" guild currently expects of its players, you are not currently the top guild on your server and if you are you won't be after 1.3 when the dungeon finder increases PvE playtimes (as right now its dominated by PvP). This kind of draconian crap doesn't fly with skilled players who prefer not to be treated like servants of the guild.

I raided hardcore in WoW, and we class stacked. I don't know any 25m hardcore raiding guild who does not do it if I still played hardcore right now I wouldn't have time to chat pathetic arguments like these with you on this forum.

 

The fact remains that you can get the 5% crit buff via other ways. And yes, 5% crit buff matters in hardcore raiding. Just like 4% more SP matters in hardcore raiding. That is the sole reason KIN raiders had an ele shaman on Spine HC world first; not because he was such an awesome player. If you think you're in cause you're awesome you're an arrogant *****, and you deserve no spot in a raiding guild (you're probably a casual raider who raids with freindz). Instead, they'd have taken yet another mage, possibly his alt if he had one. You can find that inbetween the lines in various interviews their representative gave.

 

In other words, if you are playing competitive you can now easier class stack since an operative brings nothing unique to the operations (or even WZ) encounter. Healing is settled by sorc/merc (even off healing as DPS) and the 5% crit buff can be given by players who have an agent or ops at class quest chapter 3 or later. We will see the popularity of the operative (and IA) in WZ and ops in the coming weeks. I wouldn't put my bets on your side, but thank you for your post I had some nostalgic moments typing this post.

[Hextasy]

Lets assume all classes, ranged and melee do the exact same damage 1500 on a targetting dummy. Now lets put them into a boss fight.

 

Ranged has an uptime of for the sake of arguement 90% which allows them to do 1350.

 

Melee with gapclosers lets put them at 80% which lets them do 1200.

 

Melee without a gapcloser well.. lets give them 70% because they at least have blaster fire that puts them at 1050.

 

You are doing your parses in a bubble and outside of reality.

Good point, target dummy is irrelevant in such a context. This is why we use sims in "that other game", and even those have bugs and such. But it does take heavy movement and tank 'n spank fight into account for simulation.

 

If you take Ultraxion HC for example, you need to have people who can soak, but also the rogues and ferals cannot stand behind which is a huge DPS loss. During progress, you should've considered to replace these classes if you cannot beat the enrage timer (assumes players of equal skill and raid buffs covered; which is the case in 25m hardcore raiding but most likely not in 10m hardcore, 10m casual, or 25m casual).

 

What you posted is also precisely why in patch 4.3 in "that other game" all melee (and later hunters, who were underrepresented in hardcore raiding guilds) were buffed.

 

In SWTOR, a prime example of where ranged DPS are preferred is the first fight of the new ops. Not only does it trivialize the fight, it is also a DPS increase. If you got 2 players of equal skill you are in such case better off with a sniper than a conceal ops.

 

Now for the naysers, tell me 3 fights where conceal ops is [right now] the best class for the fight. You can pick any ops, any mode. Just 3 fights. Good luck, you need it.

 

PS: And raid CD wise, sniper has a damage reduce, marauder/sentinel has a speed increase and a bloodlust. Operative? Lets be stealthed longer. Not only that, but the operative cannot use HS from that "stealth". Completely and utterly useless in PvE unless you wish to skip mobs. Well, we don't skip bosses in hardcore raiding...

[Crittlesticks]

Good point, target dummy is irrelevant in such a context. This is why we use sims in "that other game", and even those have bugs and such. But it does take heavy movement and tank 'n spank fight into account for simulation.

 

If you take Ultraxion HC for example, you need to have people who can soak, but also the rogues and ferals cannot stand behind which is a huge DPS loss. During progress, you should've considered to replace these classes if you cannot beat the enrage timer (assumes players of equal skill and raid buffs covered; which is the case in 25m hardcore raiding but most likely not in 10m hardcore, 10m casual, or 25m casual).

 

What you posted is also precisely why in patch 4.3 in "that other game" all melee (and later hunters, who were underrepresented in hardcore raiding guilds) were buffed.

 

In SWTOR, a prime example of where ranged DPS are preferred is the first fight of the new ops. Not only does it trivialize the fight, it is also a DPS increase. If you got 2 players of equal skill you are in such case better off with a sniper than a conceal ops.

 

Now for the naysers, tell me 3 fights where conceal ops is [right now] the best class for the fight. You can pick any ops, any mode. Just 3 fights. Good luck, you need it.

 

PS: And raid CD wise, sniper has a damage reduce, marauder/sentinel has a speed increase and a bloodlust. Operative? Lets be stealthed longer. Not only that, but the operative cannot use HS from that "stealth". Completely and utterly useless in PvE unless you wish to skip mobs. Well, we don't skip bosses in hardcore raiding...

 

Optimal and necessary are two completely different things. I already stated that DPS on a target dummy was under ideal situations. If you are in a guild that needs to stack a certain class to clear new content, then your guild as a whole needs to work on their mechanics. Bad players need to stack "optimal" classes, period. The content can be cleared with a DPS operative. This has been my point this entire thread, that operatives are not useless and that they are a viable DPS for clearing any new content SWTOR has released thus far. If you are having problems with it, or have rerolled because you had problems keeping up, then you are playing wrong. If this is the case, then you are right and you probably need to shelve your IA until you better understand how to play them.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Crittlesticks

[Ryemfoh]

Right so wait a second hold it right here you claim you are a hardcore raider and you clear end content on the highest difficulty and you claim on progress 5% less damage than median does not matter? Then you are not a hardcore raider simple as that.

 

I'd like to see a raid parse from any guild in any game where all the DPS are within 5% of eachother.

[DarthBanker]

So far what we see from parses where people actually link the logfile, and not anecdotal "I parsed it and did x dps", is that Operatives are not 5% behind, they are 25%.

[Hextasy]

Optimal and necessary are two completely different things. I already stated that DPS on a target dummy was under ideal situations. If you are in a guild that needs to stack a certain class to clear new content, then your guild as a whole needs to work on their mechanics. Bad players need to stack "optimal" classes, period. The content can be cleared with a DPS operative. This has been my point this entire thread, that operatives are not useless and that they are a viable DPS for clearing any new content SWTOR has released thus far. If you are having problems with it, or have rerolled because you had problems keeping up, then you are playing wrong. If this is the case, then you are right and you probably need to shelve your IA until you better understand how to play them.

Or they optimize where they can, whereas you don't because you find it "irrelevant". You lose with 1% wipe, where they win. Welcome to hardcore raiding, Crittlesticks! Actually, this kind of stuff even happens in semi-hardcore raiding. This is because even semi-hardcore raiding guilds use mechanic like standby.

 

I have been replaced, as well as have replaced countless of times when it was required. In a freindz guild people don't like to do this kind of stuff "cuz we freindz lal" (not same as casual btw) but in a hardcore raiding guild it goes without saying. You want to do this because you want your guild to progress even at your own expense.

 

If you play conceal operative in a hardcore PvE guild right now you are holding back your guild's progress. Have fun living with that thought. I'd hate it even as a casual because I want my guild to win. I'd rather not play than be boosted.

 

I'd like to see a raid parse from any guild in any game where all the DPS are within 5% of eachother.

One raid parse? That would be one sample, on one fight. In "that other game" you also need to take raid buffs into account. There are people playing who are there in a certain spec due to buffs, class/role having a certain efficiency but for example they don't have the best gear on that alt or for that role. On some fights in a raid one class is better than another. Then there is different roles. If your role is to run back and interrupt an add you do less DPS than a player who has to AoE. Overall though, in a hardcore raiding guild they're competitive and indeed it is very interesting to see different players playing the same class in 25m raiding. There is a lot one can learn from that. But Ryemfoh, the point here is that the players in a guild are of roughly equal skill (also taking into account time invested and caring) because if they're not 3 things can happen: 1) a player leaves to a better guild more akin to their skill 2) the player is underperforming and therefore kicked 3) nothing happens, drama ensues, more drama, ..., guild disband.

 

If you got one mage who does consistent 10% lower DPS than the best mage in the guild you should replace the former mage ASAP with a better player. You should keep your group composition (utility, raid buffs) into account. If there is a certain class who does consistent do less DPS you can replace that person with a better player from same class, if applicable, but if it is the class/spec and not PEBKAC you simply let the person reroll, come on their alt (DPS-wise just make a mage alt, can't go wrong with that), or get an other player of a better class (class of the month preferably). The other reason KIN raiders were able to kill Spine HC was other raiding guilds had a 1 week ban and the lockouts reset twice a week in Korea allowing them to farm DTRs. Another example in the mage context would be fire mage in patch 4.2. Yes, you can play fire mage in Firelands, but no hardcore raider did except for one fight: Alysrazor. Why not? They were underperforming compared to arcane. Arcane mage was simply better output and better for all 7 fights barring one. You can be a stubborn ****head in a casual raiding guild, knowing full well you are holding back your guild (do the same on Spine HC too and complain about some lack of crits, or crit when you shouldn't) but you are not helping your guild with that, not at all. You will find that all hardcore raiding mages were arcane in 4.2, and the semi hardcore as well. When I tried to play Firelands on my mage alt people were surprised and sometimes infuriated I was not arcane, and in the end I had to submit and respec to that lolspec.

 

If we take that to context in SWTOR it is no shame to admit defeat and reroll/respec, and also we don't have a DPS meter so we don't easily get this feedback. The operative provides no useful, unique utility and raid buff wise -as I already said- you don't need an IA either due to the legacy system. It does not appear BioWare acknowledges the problem; the legacy system made the problem worse because now you don't need an IA anymore, so they made it worse. The solution, if you are up to progress, is to replace the (sub)class and/or player. You do not want to hear that because if this would become a trend you'd have to reroll/respec/quit. But ignoring it does not make it go away... :(

 

In short, feel free to laugh and belittle rerollers as bad players (without any proof whatsoever to support that claim) but if these players have equal skill as you these players will, once they geared their new main and did reroll to something their guild needs, outperform you in both DPS as well as utility and they won't be heavy weight for their guild whereas you will remain that. Like I said, have fun living with that thought