DPS parser statistics, maybe the nerf wasn't so bad.

[Crittlesticks]

Or they optimize where they can, whereas you don't because you find it "irrelevant". You lose with 1% wipe, where they win. Welcome to hardcore raiding, Crittlesticks! Actually, this kind of stuff even happens in semi-hardcore raiding. This is because even semi-hardcore raiding guilds use mechanic like standby.

 

I have been replaced, as well as have replaced countless of times when it was required. In a freindz guild people don't like to do this kind of stuff "cuz we freindz lal" (not same as casual btw) but in a hardcore raiding guild it goes without saying. You want to do this because you want your guild to progress even at your own expense.

 

If you play conceal operative in a hardcore PvE guild right now you are holding back your guild's progress. Have fun living with that thought. I'd hate it even as a casual because I want my guild to win. I'd rather not play than be boosted.

 

One raid parse? That would be one sample, on one fight. In "that other game" you also need to take raid buffs into account. There are people playing who are there in a certain spec due to buffs, class/role having a certain efficiency but for example they don't have the best gear on that alt or for that role. On some fights in a raid one class is better than another. Then there is different roles. If your role is to run back and interrupt an add you do less DPS than a player who has to AoE. Overall though, in a hardcore raiding guild they're competitive and indeed it is very interesting to see different players playing the same class in 25m raiding. There is a lot one can learn from that. But Ryemfoh, the point here is that the players in a guild are of roughly equal skill (also taking into account time invested and caring) because if they're not 3 things can happen: 1) a player leaves to a better guild more akin to their skill 2) the player is underperforming and therefore kicked 3) nothing happens, drama ensues, more drama, ..., guild disband.

 

If you got one mage who does consistent 10% lower DPS than the best mage in the guild you should replace the former mage ASAP with a better player. You should keep your group composition (utility, raid buffs) into account. If there is a certain class who does consistent do less DPS you can replace that person with a better player from same class, if applicable, but if it is the class/spec and not PEBKAC you simply let the person reroll, come on their alt (DPS-wise just make a mage alt, can't go wrong with that), or get an other player of a better class (class of the month preferably). The other reason KIN raiders were able to kill Spine HC was other raiding guilds had a 1 week ban and the lockouts reset twice a week in Korea allowing them to farm DTRs. Another example in the mage context would be fire mage in patch 4.2. Yes, you can play fire mage in Firelands, but no hardcore raider did except for one fight: Alysrazor. Why not? They were underperforming compared to arcane. Arcane mage was simply better output and better for all 7 fights barring one. You can be a stubborn ****head in a casual raiding guild, knowing full well you are holding back your guild (do the same on Spine HC too and complain about some lack of crits, or crit when you shouldn't) but you are not helping your guild with that, not at all. You will find that all hardcore raiding mages were arcane in 4.2, and the semi hardcore as well. When I tried to play Firelands on my mage alt people were surprised and sometimes infuriated I was not arcane, and in the end I had to submit and respec to that lolspec.

 

If we take that to context in SWTOR it is no shame to admit defeat and reroll/respec, and also we don't have a DPS meter so we don't easily get this feedback. The operative provides no useful, unique utility and raid buff wise -as I already said- you don't need an IA either due to the legacy system. It does not appear BioWare acknowledges the problem; the legacy system made the problem worse because now you don't need an IA anymore, so they made it worse. The solution, if you are up to progress, is to replace the (sub)class and/or player. You do not want to hear that because if this would become a trend you'd have to reroll/respec/quit. But ignoring it does not make it go away... :(

 

In short, feel free to laugh and belittle rerollers as bad players (without any proof whatsoever to support that claim) but if these players have equal skill as you these players will, once they geared their new main and did reroll to something their guild needs, outperform you in both DPS as well as utility and they won't be heavy weight for their guild whereas you will remain that. Like I said, have fun living with that thought

 

Your statements and obvious lack of Nightmare Mode operation experience make your "message" just more verbal diarrhea that seems to infest the rest of these forums. You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. If you manage to get that 1% because you have an "optimal" raid makeup, stacking the current flavor of the month classes. Then you do not really know the encounter, anyone who actually does nightmare mode operations...unlike you, knows what I am talking about.

 

If you are going for a world / server first then I can see stacking the same FOTM classes, but if you are wiping at 1% then as a guild, you are failing. Secondly, stacking FOTM classes makes you relient on "optimal" class makeup to learn any new content, which in turn makes you even worse. If you manage to kill the boss with 2 people left alive and barely evade a wipe, you did not learn the encounter...you got lucky. Once everyone in your raid knows the mechanics forwards and backwards then you wont have situations like this, but its pretty clear from your statements that you are a lackluster player who has not, nor probably ever will experience end game content. Enjoy pugs and combined guild story mode for the rest of your time here in SWTOR, you deserve each other with your mentality.

 

Go away and take your clear lack of skill and game knowledge with you, because you are clearly mentally handicapped if this what you truly believe.

 

have fun living with that thought

 

and also we don't have a DPS meter so we don't easily get this feedback.

 

Again, are you retarded? The entire basis of my initial post was sharing DPS parser results, I don't know what in your small peanut sized brain doesn't computer here, but I will try and explain it to you in words you can understand.

 

Pepulz run pawrser, pawesers sink 2gether, dee pee ssss is den looked at when all da pawesers r givin da datas 2 each uther.

 

Plain and simple and I will say this one more time for you. If you need to stack FOTM classes that currently have ~5% higher DPS in-order to clear content, then you as a guild are bad. This is not the fault of one single individual normally, it is you as a guild not being able to work together.

 

So you have two options here if you have to stack the highest current DPS classes to clear new content.

 

1. You are either bad, and not pulling the DPS you should be.

2. Your guild as a whole needs to work on their mechanics, ultimately meaning they need to improve as a whole.

 

Like I said, have fun living with that thought

Edited April 16, 2012 by Crittlesticks

[Russlem]

I raided hardcore in WoW, and we class stacked. I don't know any 25m hardcore raiding guild who does not do it if I still played hardcore right now I wouldn't have time to chat pathetic arguments like these with you on this forum.

 

 

I raided server first hardcore in WoW on three servers. We never class stacked except in Sunwell and classic. In WotLK and Cata it was utterly unnecessary unless you were going for world firsts for only end-of-content bosses (No lights Yogg 25-man). You didn't raid hardcore. How do I know? Because when content was on farm you raided 2 days a week (sometimes 1) and had more time on your hands than god. Ignored the rest of your post after reading this because you are a liar.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Russlem

[Russlem]

So you have two options here if you have to stack the highest current DPS classes to clear new content.

 

This is simple, we used to see it in server 22nd 2 out of 12 bosses hardmode "hardcore" raiding guilds in WoW. They bench players at the skill ceiling, those players find guilds that aren't made up of the mentally handicapped and those guilds progress. The "hardcore we'll bench our best players for being the wrong class" guilds, then talk about how hardcore they are while being utterly humiliated by guilds that are smart enough to bring the player, then come to the forums to talk about how every hardcore guild, the real ones that actually get crap done, must do the same thing they do that's costing them their top skilled players.

[Crittlesticks]

This is simple, we used to see it in server 22nd 2 out of 12 bosses hardmode "hardcore" raiding guilds in WoW. They bench players at the skill ceiling, those players find guilds that aren't made up of the mentally handicapped and those guilds progress. The "hardcore we'll bench our best players for being the wrong class" guilds, then talk about how hardcore they are while being utterly humiliated by guilds that are smart enough to bring the player, then come to the forums to talk about how every hardcore guild, the real ones that actually get crap done, must do the same thing they do that's costing them their top skilled players.

 

At least I am not the only one that sees hexwhateverhisnameis as being a mouth breather. Guilds that see their 2% wipe on a boss as being an issue with them not bringing the most optimal DPS class for every slot in their raid will never progress. They may get a boss down eventually, but they will continue to feed themselves these convoluted notions that they are actually good players, and that they need to class stack to get anything done.

 

When in reality they border on the same IQ level as a bar of soap and need the crutch of class stacking to accomplish anything. But don't worry guys, they are hardcore because they raid 5+ nights a week!

Edited April 16, 2012 by Crittlesticks

[Hextasy]

Your statements and obvious lack of Nightmare Mode operation experience make your "message" just more verbal diarrhea that seems to infest the rest of these forums. You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. If you manage to get that 1% because you have an "optimal" raid makeup, stacking the current flavor of the month classes. Then you do not really know the encounter, anyone who actually does nightmare mode operations...unlike you, knows what I am talking about.

Wrong, it means you need to play better, and perhaps combined with having more attempts with RNG more on your side. We were also comparing FOTM and conceal operatives of equal skill; we were not comparing average FOTM + best conceal op in world, nor the best FORM vs an average conceal op.

 

In the real world (not yours apparently ) players of equal skill play a certain difficulty with certain gear. In this world, the top hardcore is an extreme example but we can draw this to the other difficulties further down, too. We'd be better off with a FOTM who plays at 98% efficiency than an average operative. We'd be better off with an average FOTM than an average operative. Why, because their output is higher. So what you will see in the game from PuGs to normal to HM to nightmare is that conceal operatives are not preferred.

 

What you claim is this: I am one of the best conceal ops in this game, and an average player FOTM cannot compete with me on DPS. You say you won't be replaced. Might be true, but there are tons of casual guilds out there who have each average players of equal skill, and in that case the conceal operative underperforms output-wise and yes that is a problem if you have trouble with enrage timers.

 

The fact remains that the operative provides nothing to the operations other classes do not do already better. Not unique utility, no unique buffs, no unique CDs. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. Do you understand? Did you get it into your head? You keep ignoring that every time you reply to one of my posts.

 

If you are going for a world / server first then I can see stacking the same FOTM classes, but if you are wiping at 1% then as a guild, you are failing. Secondly, stacking FOTM classes makes you relient on "optimal" class makeup to learn any new content, which in turn makes you even worse. If you manage to kill the boss with 2 people left alive and barely evade a wipe, you did not learn the encounter...you got lucky.

That depends on why the 2 people were alive. If you made it to the enrage timer then you were able to survive all those tactics before that. For example, you were not able to execute your rotation as good as you should.

 

[...] but its pretty clear from your statements that you are a lackluster player who has not, nor probably ever will experience end game content. Enjoy pugs and combined guild story mode for the rest of your time here in SWTOR, you deserve each other with your mentality.

I don't want to play this game, or any game for that matter, hardcore (I find 2x3hrs a week in WoW without forced attendance pretty damn casual). I have a life now. That is a choice, and I'm happy with it. But that doesn't mean my experiences don't count.

 

Go away and take your clear lack of skill and game knowledge with you, because you are clearly mentally handicapped if this what you truly believe.

No, I am not going to be silent because you want me to be. If you don't want to read what I say there is the ignore function, and for the rest I will post whenever I see you posting nonsense like you did before.

[Crittlesticks]

What you claim is this: I am one of the best conceal ops in this game, and an average player FOTM cannot compete with me on DPS. You say you won't be replaced. Might be true, but there are tons of casual guilds out there who have each average players of equal skill, and in that case the conceal operative underperforms output-wise and yes that is a problem if you have trouble with enrage timers.

 

I have never once said that I was the best conceal ops in the game, in fact if you actually read my post, I said something to the effect of "I am sure there are areas where I can improve."

 

The point you are trying to make is that the optimal raid makeup would contain the current FOTM classes that have the top dps currently, and that operatives do not bring anything to the table that other classes do not. I hear what you are saying, but it is a very poor way of looking at it. Guilds that are in tionese / columi have full cleared HM KP and EV. These players are technically considered "under geared" since they have not finished their columi or geared out with a few Rakata pieces from the easier bosses in each operation. Yet these guilds have been able to full clear these operations because they learn the mechanics, their players are able to avoid certain aspects of the boss fight that:

 

1.) Reduce the amount of damage taken to the group, which allows the healers more breathing room, and also help out with the DPS slightly when massive raid damage is not being taken, helping to avoid enrage timers.

2.) Position themselves correctly to optimize their DPS, enabling them to do the ~50k extra damaged needed to drop the boss before they enrage.

 

Your point is that other classes can do what operatives do DPS wise, and also bring other utilities to the table, noted. What I am trying to relay to you, is that this does not make operatives useless, nor does it make it a sound choice to bench your better players to bring in the "higher DPS classes."

 

What you are proposing is that guilds that want to progress should tell their players that they have to play a certain class to be effective, which is not true. If you are having trouble with enrage timers, unless you are severely under geared (in which case you have more HM Flashpoint farming to do) then your operation group is not dealing with a certain mechanic of the fight in the correct manner. This throws your entire point of bringing only the best DPS classes out the window, since tionese / columi geared players can complete the operation on hard mode, and their DPS by default will be lower than other people that are "properly" geared, yet still have trouble with enrage timers.

 

You need to step away from the mentality that the operation cannot be completed without the optimal class makeup, when in fact it can. If you truly wish to improve as a guild then everyone needs to be on point. Not give yourself the crutch of class stacking.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Crittlesticks

[Faemar]

Here's what I know. Just trying to figure out how to send up proof.

 

Level 33 Sniper lethality specced (no Cull) pre and post 1.2

Level 15 Gunslinger dirty tricks specced.

 

Pre 1.2, was constantly getting 150k+ damage per warzone. Post 1.2, 92k has been my highest dmg output in a warzone. Same spec. Same gear. Same play style. Guildies were saying new patch. So I decided to test something.

 

I log outta my sniper, log into my level 15 gunslinger (post 1.2) Same spec. Same gear. Same play style as pre-1.2 - First damage in a partial warzone was 97k. Damage in second and full warzone was 179k. Log back into sniper after this quick test. 74k damage in the next warzone.

 

So, something DID change with snipers overall damage in the patch, just tryin to figure out how to test/prove it was actual numbers instead of warzone numbers.

[Crittlesticks]

Here's what I know. Just trying to figure out how to send up proof.

 

Level 33 Sniper lethality specced (no Cull) pre and post 1.2

Level 15 Gunslinger dirty tricks specced.

 

Pre 1.2, was constantly getting 150k+ damage per warzone. Post 1.2, 92k has been my highest dmg output in a warzone. Same spec. Same gear. Same play style. Guildies were saying new patch. So I decided to test something.

 

I log outta my sniper, log into my level 15 gunslinger (post 1.2) Same spec. Same gear. Same play style as pre-1.2 - First damage in a partial warzone was 97k. Damage in second and full warzone was 179k. Log back into sniper after this quick test. 74k damage in the next warzone.

 

So, something DID change with snipers overall damage in the patch, just tryin to figure out how to test/prove it was actual numbers instead of warzone numbers.

 

Thanks for the input, the only problem is that this is based off of pre-50 warzones where you get the bolster buff, also we have no idea of knowing if when you were pvping on these characters if anyone had pulled expertise mods out of some pvp gear and inserted them into orange gear pre-50, which would have changed the damage output you would have been doing substantially.

[Marak]

There are so many strawmen and ad hominems in this thread that it is becoming ridiculous.

 

If you guys want to actually be useful to this community how about we all just stick to the numbers? Right now we don't have a single cohesive collection of parse data in our little rathole forum. Everyone is posting them everywhere and they are ranging from 900-1500 with little explanation as to why. If we can isolate our strengths, weaknesses, and optimal setups we can start combing over everything and then, and only then, can we properly address where we stand as a class.

[Russlem]

There are so many strawmen and ad hominems in this thread that it is becoming ridiculous.

 

If you guys want to actually be useful to this community how about we all just stick to the numbers? Right now we don't have a single cohesive collection of parse data in our little rathole forum. Everyone is posting them everywhere and they are ranging from 900-1500 with little explanation as to why. If we can isolate our strengths, weaknesses, and optimal setups we can start combing over everything and then, and only then, can we properly address where we stand as a class.

 

I'd love for something like this to happen, but it won't. For one, the Operative forum doesn't get enough coverage. Less than 1500 views per thread in a game of 1.7 million players. For two there are too many trolls to post good data, any thread is doomed to get bogged down with personal anecdotes, complaining and general misinformation.

 

Why are the DPS parses so disparate? Because there's no ElitistJerks and players have no mathematical basis from which to derive their rotations. Operative rotation isn't cut and dry, its one of the more complicated calculations. For example, in PvE Corrosive Dart (especially now that Corrosive Microbes has been fixed) has the highest DPCT by far and yet I rarely see it posted as the top priority of an Operative's rotation. Until we get a uniform rotation with a high confidence level that people are actually using this rotation, we'll be getting disparate data. Sometime in the next month the community will pick a WoW-meter website and we'll start seeing large scale parses under boss conditions. Right now its kind of a joke since its all dummy parses with no context or non-descript raid parses.

[Ryemfoh]

Operative rotation isn't cut and dry, its one of the more complicated calculations. For example, in PvE Corrosive Dart (especially now that Corrosive Microbes has been fixed) has the highest DPCT by far and yet I rarely see it posted as the top priority of an Operative's rotation. Until we get a uniform rotation with a high confidence level that people are actually using this rotation, we'll be getting disparate data.

 

This is so true, and is why at a bare minimum, we need parses that include the underlying data (# hits, # crits, etc). Then we need to reverse-engineer that data into some kind of rotation (impossible to know exactly what happened, but we can at least figure out whether the rotation approximated something good or something bad.

 

There are other issues as well, like that Dart and AB are rolled into a single value (Poison [Tech]), so you need to break that down based on BS hits and try to derive Dart uptime etc... Basically, we are in the very early stages of Theorycrafting, and now that we have better (not perfect) tools, it's time for us to get cracking as a community and stop all this QQ bs.

[Russlem]

This is so true, and is why at a bare minimum, we need parses that include the underlying data (# hits, # crits, etc). Then we need to reverse-engineer that data into some kind of rotation (impossible to know exactly what happened, but we can at least figure out whether the rotation approximated something good or something bad.

 

There are other issues as well, like that Dart and AB are rolled into a single value (Poison [Tech]), so you need to break that down based on BS hits and try to derive Dart uptime etc... Basically, we are in the very early stages of Theorycrafting, and now that we have better (not perfect) tools, it's time for us to get cracking as a community and stop all this QQ bs.

 

I don't think we'll be able to reverse engineer it into anything like a rotation. For one, we're a cooldown oriented class so if the fight ends up with 20 backstabs vs. 23 backstabs we won't know where that person is ranking backstab in their rotation as a variance of just a couple of abilities is fairly normal in a parse.

 

Based on some data I ran for myself using some basic roundabout numbers I've come up not with a rotation (because cooldowns regularly clash) but a priority system as follows:

 

1. Hidden Strike + Acid blade (As you can only do this once per fight and does not trigger other CDs)

2. Corrosive Dart

3. Stim Boost (highest DPS contribution besides Corrosive Dart)

4. Backstab + Acid Blade if your armor debuff is about to wear off.

5. Lacerate if you have 2 TA's.

6. Shiv. This is because while it has a low DPCT, it has a very high DPS compared with other abilities. The cooldown needs to keep rolling.

7. Backstab + Acid Blade if your armor debuff is fine. This ability has a high DPCT, but a very low DPS.

8. Lacerate if you have less than 2 TA's. This is because Lacerate is dependent on TA's and as long as you are not overcapping TA's there is no DPS loss as you've only "stored" these Lacerates for later, not lost them.

9. Rifle Shot if you are below 60 energy.

10. Overload shot (filler)

Edited April 16, 2012 by Russlem

[Ryemfoh]

I don't think we'll be able to reverse engineer it into anything like a rotation. For one, we're a cooldown oriented class so if the fight ends up with 20 backstabs vs. 23 backstabs we won't know where that person is ranking backstab in their rotation as a variance of just a couple of abilities is fairly normal in a parse.

 

You can see pretty easily from inspection whether the player managed to keep Shiv / BS on cooldown (or close to), and with a little more effort and conjecture whether they managed to keep 100% uptime on Dart.

 

Lacerates vs TA generation is also fairly easy to observe, and you can infer Stim usage based on these values as well (Shiv + Collateral Strike - Lacerate = no of TA's left for Stim use)

 

ArPen debuff uptime can be inferred from BS usage as well, and the same applies for other abilities, all in all there is more than enough data to distinguish a good "rotation" from an bad one - particularly on a dummy which after all is meant to set the "ideal fight" benchmark.

 

Based on some data I ran for myself using some basic roundabout numbers I've come up not with a rotation (because cooldowns regularly clash) but a priority system as follows:

 

1. Hidden Strike + Acid blade (As you can only do this once per fight and does not trigger other CDs) - Talented Cloaking Screen is a DPS cooldown that allows you to hit HS three more times in a 5 min fight

2. Corrosive Dart

3. Stim Boost (highest DPS contribution besides Corrosive Dart)

4. Backstab + Acid Blade if your armor debuff is about to wear off.

5. Lacerate if you have 2 TA's.

6. Shiv. This is because while it has a low DPCT, it has a very high DPS compared with other abilities. The cooldown needs to keep rolling. - Are you getting DPE and DPCT confused? By definition, it is impossible for something to be low DPCT and high DPS, the only time these values differ is on DoT abilities where DPCT is always higher than DPS

7. Backstab + Acid Blade if your armor debuff is fine. This ability has a high DPCT, but a very low DPS. - Again, not sure how you're defining DPCT and DPS but AB+BS is certainly not low in either. Possibly you mean low DPE, but it's not that either. AB+BS should actually be at the top of your list (well .. underneath AB+HS)

8. Lacerate if you have less than 2 TA's. This is because Lacerate is dependent on TA's and as long as you are not overcapping TA's there is no DPS loss as you've only "stored" these Lacerates for later, not lost them. - By using your last TA you are losing your 2% damage buff. Even if you immediately re-apply with Shiv, that Shiv will hit 2% less that it could have.

9. Rifle Shot if you are below 60 energy. - If you are below 60e it is already too late

10. Overload shot (filler)

 

Comments inline. I find it interesting you don't have EP or Orbital Strike in your list. These two are both definitely DPS gains over Overload Shot, but I know they take a little more planning to fit into our "rotation" / energy constraints ... have you found the reward not worth the effort?

 

Please don't think I'm criticising, this is exactly the kind of discussion that needs to happen before anyone can draw conclusions about Operative DPS.

Edited April 17, 2012 by Ryemfoh

[DarthBanker]

Take the personal attacks out - post the logfile. They dont lie, they dont troll. Go to the Marauder forum, their numbers are posted for all to see including spec, setting and gear. This conversation is proving to be everything thats wrong with design by anonymous democracy. Focus on the question at hand which is: are we DPSing at a serious disadvantage post 1.2 or not. I say yes. You say no? Show me the file.

[blazingg]

Take the personal attacks out - post the logfile. They dont lie, they dont troll. Go to the Marauder forum, their numbers are posted for all to see including spec, setting and gear. This conversation is proving to be everything thats wrong with design by anonymous democracy. Focus on the question at hand which is: are we DPSing at a serious disadvantage post 1.2 or not. I say yes. You say no? Show me the file.

 

I say yes also looking at a marauder you cant just compare DPS try comparing the amount of cool downs a marauder gets to an operative if you really want an imbalance.

Edited April 17, 2012 by blazingg

[Agonisis]

Once you hit HM/NM 99% of everything is immune to CC, esp NM. So the conceal op has no real use, this why most raiding guilds wont let them in as concealment. my 2 cents