1.2 Shieldtech PVP Impressions

[Prolyfic]

Last night I played extensively with the pvp changes to the Shieldtech tree and PT as a whole and I am very pleased overall with the net results. I think Shieldtech as a pvp spec is of greater value in this patch phase with a lot of changes to several classes damage overall, but very little to no changes to our survivability (if not an improvement once your playstyle adjusts to the shield changes).

 

That said, I queued solo for the entire night and rarely suffered more than 1 death for every 30-40 kills. I died a few times in the new WZ testing my limits solo against a bunker of two or three, though found it common that I could usually kill the squishiest one of the three before they brought me down barring two or three marauders/sentinels.

 

Here are my comments on the changes..

 

Powertech

 

Quell costs no heat.. this is a great change. Interrupts are needed suddenly and immediately, this change is pure gold for pvp as it prevents us from ever being too hot to interrupt - very important in long lasting engagements. On the downside, warriors/knights ravage is now uninterruptible in all builds which Quell saw a lot of use for. You can still stun them though.

 

 

Shield Tech

 

Ablative Upgrades - We lost 2% dmg reduction here, hardly noticeable in the greater scheme of things with the shield changes, and there are several other talents that can make up for it. See other trees for extra dmg reduction lower in the tree.

 

Empowered Tech is now a 3-point skill - Loss of 4% shield chance, but we make up for it with an additional possible 8% shield absorb so long as we keep our 4x Heat Screen buffs going (or the old 10% total just using one flame burst + one heat blast every 15s) - not too difficult with Heat Blast off GCD.

 

Heat Blast is no longer limited by the global cooldown - The best change of the patch! Hardly useful for it's dmg alone, now we can lower heat AND buff shield absorb OFF the GCD. The offGCD dmg alone makes the -15% loss nothing because we can do it inbetween other attacks! Basically adding Heat Blasts dmg to any other ability in our DPS rotation instead of replacing it. Overall burst dmg improved for Shieldtech w/ this change. Offsets the above two changes considerably.

 

Oil Slick is no longer limited by the global cooldown - Another wonderful change that increases our survivability and allows us to drop one of our class defining pvp tanking abilities earlier in the fight.

 

 

Conclusions, TL;DR: We now have so many options off of the GCD that the Shieldtechs rotation is ultimately even MORE flexible. Taunt, AOE taunt, Heat Blast, Oil Slick, Shields, Dmg buff etc.. I am using an off-GCD ability inbetween almost every GCD ability - mostly defensively. So I can charge in recklessly and weave defenses inbetween my dps attacks w/o sacrificing dps. I no longer have to stop dpsing to use oil slick and heat blast. In addition, our burst dps has improved slightly. Our survivability has seen a net improvement with the GCD changes above, so long as you keep your Heat Screen up.

 

Get out there and represent one of the least played PVP classes/trees. Show them what they are missing!

Edited April 13, 2012 by Prolyfic

[Colonelpandabear]

I've tried the new and improved shield tech tree out in pvp, and while my spec will need some fine tuning I have to say I'm very happy with the results. Excellent mix of endurance and decent sustained damage.

[Shiboe]

I'm running a modified ironfisty build, and it's fine for what it is. The spec got a boost IMO simply for the fact that damage seems reduced across the board (cept marauders?) so pvp is favoring survivalists ATM. Tried AP (going in with plenty of AP experience pre-1.2) and it actually felt weaker TBH.

 

To me it comes down to this: don't play a half assed DPS spec when there are other classes that do it much better. Find what your class can do well that others can't, and exploit that. For BH, that is primarily shield/AP iron fist spec, giving us mobility, grapples, and survivability.

 

If PFT ends up being bugged and damage improves on it, the advantage may shift back to AP for me.

[Prolyfic]

I'm of the impression that you should play the spec thats right for your playstyle, regardless of current patch changes. A lot of adaptable ppl would disagree with me and successfully play multiple different roles with different specs, but usually I find solid pvp tanks are going to be ppl that are really in it to protect the team, not dps that have rerolled due to a patch (not saying that's anyone here, just in general).

 

It's hard to shift ones mindset from dps, assisting, and killing - to taunting, guarding, CCing, debuffing, and otherwise protecting.

 

Some ppl rolled BH to play melee dps and for those this patch may or may not be as enjoyable as it is for us, but otherwise I agree in that if you're going to roll shieldtech, make sure you update your playstyle to suit its strengths.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Prolyfic

[RockaXL]

How do you feel with shield tech damage versus AP or Pyro?

[Prolyfic]

Considering the fact that you are playing one of the hardest to kill specs in PVP atm, it's damage is genuinely higher than expected in my experience (compared to playing pvp tanks in many pvp mmos)

 

Lets put it this way. Shieldtech gains much more defense than it loses in offense by comparison.

 

By that I mean once I'm on a target with the intent to kill (not just CC or taunt or interfere) then there is very little chance that target is going to either escape or survive. I have never got stuck in a situation where I simply lacked the dps to take a player down over time - although with shieldtech it truly is sometimes a war of attrition. You really don't have to do great dmg to win if you can reduce your opponents dmg by more of a % than the difference in your DPS and his. The one thing this build lacks is escape potential. but 99% of the time its trying to keep players as close as poss, not get away from them.

 

I lured several marauders into one on ones last night behind scenery and found my defenses more than adequate to keep me alive long enough to dps them down, previously the class I had the closest fights with. Healers weren't much of a problem at all between the heatless quell, stun, and cryo I had three easy interrupts/CCs to shut them down and easily dps them to death alone if need be (mercs being the most difficult)

Edited April 13, 2012 by Prolyfic

[Ratito]

can someone post the ST Build for PVP ??

[Prolyfic]

I'm using something close to this 33/8/0 or 32/9/0 but a lot of ppl invest the 2 pts into pyro for the +8% rocket punch dmg instead of any number of utility talents (like the grapple CD reduction of 10s which I find invaluable for player positioning, protecting, and where there are hazards, killing). I find the utility to get/prevent more kills than the extra rocket punch dmg.

 

 

The highlights of the the 33/8 build include..

 

 

Survivability

 

*8% global dmg mitigation.. one of the only mitigation tools that works on all classes in pvp (and even more dmg reduction vs non armor-piercing abilities with 16% armor boost)

*4% global dmg debuff to your enemy after using Flame Burst with +6% crit chance or Flame Sweep with +36% crit chance

 

This yields Net +12% global dmg difference between the shieldtech and his opponent before any shield/absorb/defense, CD, or taunt mechanics factor in.

 

1/3rd uptime 20% accuracy debuff to all nearby enemies useable off the GCD

 

6-14% boost to shield absorb depending on heat screen application

 

1 min CD reduction on Kolto Overload, making this HoT much more useable

 

 

Mobility

 

1 charge that interrupts and immobilizes for 3 seconds, also boosting shieldtech's speed by 30% for 4s. Great for helping catch ppl that break out of the immob.

 

1 pull that interrupts and immobilizes for 3 seconds, great in pvp for many things (the more creative the player the more useful the grapple) and one of our class defining abilities in pvp.

 

A Rocket Punch with a 2s slow component, 9s DoT, and 30% extra crit chance, with a CD that is reset every other time we shield an attack (usually CDs every 5-7s or so)

 

15% chance to proc a 2s slow/9s dot with all ranged attacks

 

 

Utility

 

5 interrupts that work on players, 3 of which are ranged (quell, carbonize are from melee range; grapple, jet charge, electro dart from 30m range)

 

10s CD reductions on two of these interrupts compared to other builds

 

With Electro Dart the ability to remove an enemy from cover at 30m range, allowing charging or grappling

 

Two additional ways to vent heat, 1.) 50% on shielding an attack 2.) Once every 15s, off GCD ability Heat Blast

Edited April 13, 2012 by Prolyfic

[mrObtuse]

just take any of the iron fist and move some points to shield to get up to 31.

 

i ended up approx this http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301GoGrzRrRMRZrzoMZb.1

 

the post above this is more optimized to the defensive aspects whereas I've followed the iron fist concept that mostly skips some shielding increases due to the inconsistency of shielding's benefit in pvp.

Edited April 13, 2012 by mrObtuse

[Prolyfic]

Yea, the major difference in the iron fist and the one I outlined is the trade off of 6% passive shield chance for the 8% rocket punch dmg.

 

its a personal matter of balancing the dmg->defense of your character but to me that loss of shield chance hurts not only because your heat venting relies on shielding, but also because shielding resets your Rocket Punch, and shielding protects against spike crit dmg in pvp

 

It also gives up the useable HoT and 2% more global dmg reduction for 9% more aim which never did affect my kill speed enough to give up the CD reduction on my only way to regain lost hp beside stims.. as well as the ever important global dmg reduction stacking from multiple talents that makes this build so hard to kill.

 

Don't underestimate the affect of shield in pvp! Shield chance is basically anti-crit and Shield Absorb is basically anti-surge.

 

IF you are hit by an attack in pvp, a roll is made of the attackers crit vs the defenders shield chance. If the roll is successful, the attack's damage is increased by the difference in the attackers surge and the defenders shield absorb.

 

(reference)

 

Shield reduces crit frequency thus burst dmg in pvp, making you MUCH easier to heal. In addition, when you are hit by an attack that wouldn't regularly crit, shielding it will "anti-crit" it down by as much dmg as critting it would boost it.

 

More attacks in PvP are kinetic/energy than people realize. Take for instance the much lauded rocket punch.. its not elemental, it's kinetic and absorbed all the same by other BHs.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Prolyfic

[Nydar]

I missed this thread. I made an entire thread that probably could have been addressed in here.

 

What would ya'll think of this for pvp? I made it because I que solo 1/2 the time and find that in pugs I am the only person that appears to understand the concept of covering healers.

 

Jet charge, improved grapple, improved quell, improved electro dart, and carbonize offer a lot of ways to keep that heal from getting off. And I think I loaded it with enough survivability to fullfill other tankly obligations.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301GoGbdRroMZrkMroZb.1

 

Thoughts? its just a variation of ironfist, figure someone's either done this before or I missed something critical and it sucks.

[Fredcat]

As someone who's always been a ST, one thing that's noticeable is you can easily overheat now. I almost never overheated before this update, I hardly even had to pay attention to heat. You definitely need to use heat blast every opportunity now.

 

My burst did seem to be better, but that's because they changed expertise, not because of the class changes. I went from around 600 to over 1100, which crushes all the PVEers in their Rakata gear. It remains to be seen how good this spec is once all those people dump their PVE gear for PVP gear.

 

Overall the changes are meh. ST's will have to adjust their rotation and playstyle a bit. It's still a very viable defensive spec, but my initial impression from one night of PVP is I liked ST better before 1.2. In fairness, one night is not a fair comparison to 4 months of PVP. I say the jury's still out on these changes.

[Prolyfic]

I like the concept of the build, but for my tastes it gives up too much survivability and mobility to accomplish little more than the heavier tank build can still do.

 

loss of shield chance, heat screen, armor, speed boost will hurt a bit for the solo pvper, but you do have a 6(?)s interrupt and the cool blade attack.

 

I think if the goal is protecting healers though, having the extra mitigation to split with them thru guard and more easily survive and to reduce burst crits and require less healing yourself, the heavier shieldtech build offers a lot more than being able to interrupt more frequently.

[TheOpf]

To me it comes down to this: don't play a half assed DPS spec when there are other classes that do it much better. Find what your class can do well that others can't, and exploit that. For BH, that is primarily shield/AP iron fist spec, giving us mobility, grapples, and survivability.

 

If PFT ends up being bugged and damage improves on it, the advantage may shift back to AP for me.

 

This is neither a constructive comment nor a well recognized one. AP and Pyro are both right about the same damage. The only reason you are seeing reduced damage is because you may not have gear for it. Every noted AP player is seeing the same damage or more depending on who you are fighting, PFT - immolate - rp can hit for upwards of 12-17k of health off a target.

 

If someone isn't getting a heal or a guard, than any decent AP player will drop him by the time PFT is over with. Just because you can't play something doesn't mean it's bad.

[Prolyfic]

I almost never overheated before this update, I hardly even had to pay attention to heat. You definitely need to use heat blast every opportunity now.

 

that's odd, I didnt really overheat more than the heat dump, vent heat, and heat blast could handle last night and I got into some really prolonged engagements. the only thing that should have really hurt your heat more than pre 1.2 was the loss of 4% shield chance for vent heat's sake but the off GCD heat blast more than compensates for that.

 

you're right though, one night is definitely not long, only for first impressions ;D

 

and yes, dmg changed from expertise changes but at the same time its no doubt to me that losing 15% dmg on heat blast but putting it off the GCD is a net improvement. It only fails to be so if you run out of abilities in your attack rotation (which doesnt really happen with the rocket punch resetting on shielding an attack) and was a nice extra bit of dmg I found I could dump on someone exactly when I really needed to.

 

I didnt really pay attention to heat because I didn't wait to use heat blast when I got hot, I used it as a sneaky off GCD dps ability so I guess I used it when it came up pretty often.

 

 

If someone isn't getting a heal or a guard, than any decent AP player will drop him by the time PFT is over with

 

Yet another reason why global dmg reductions are important for a player primarily tanking in pvp, when you take your half of that dmg the healer/dps guarded it's a lot easier to swallow with 12% cut off the top first.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Prolyfic

[Sambailey]

I realize that taking Heat Blast off the GCD may look like a buff, which it really is, but the ability compared to the other tanking 31 point tier ability's of the war/sin it is still complete and utter garbage. My rapid shots hit for as much as Heat Blast does. No joke. One target, 10 yards, little (less with the -15%) damage, and no added threat. If you read in the patch notes under Immortal, you'll see that Crushing Blow got an additional 50% threat to the ability, on top of whatever it was to begin with (it did already say 'Adds additional threat' pre 1.2). And lets not forget that it also does over FOUR TIMES the damage on the same cooldown.

 

Compounding this with the utter gutting of the Bodyguard (healing merc) tree, the arguably large damage nerf to Death From Above, and that mystery gimp to Mercenary's armor (we know there was a 5% damage off the top of Power Barrier, but why am I taking 1000 damage from mobs when I was only being hit for 600 before? That's not 5%); I may just be talking out of my arse, but it looks like BioWare Dev's do not play Bounty Hunters at all.

[Agooz]

Yea, the major difference in the iron fist and the one I outlined is the trade off of 6% passive shield chance for the 8% rocket punch dmg.

 

its a personal matter of balancing the dmg->defense of your character but to me that loss of shield chance hurts not only because your heat venting relies on shielding, but also because shielding resets your Rocket Punch, and shielding protects against spike crit dmg in pvp

 

It also gives up the useable HoT and 2% more global dmg reduction for 9% more aim which never did affect my kill speed enough to give up the CD reduction on my only way to regain lost hp beside stims.. as well as the ever important global dmg reduction stacking from multiple talents that makes this build so hard to kill.

 

Don't underestimate the affect of shield in pvp! Shield chance is basically anti-crit and Shield Absorb is basically anti-surge.

 

IF you are hit by an attack in pvp, a roll is made of the attackers crit vs the defenders shield chance. If the roll is successful, the attack's damage is increased by the difference in the attackers surge and the defenders shield absorb.

 

(reference)

 

Shield reduces crit frequency thus burst dmg in pvp, making you MUCH easier to heal. In addition, when you are hit by an attack that wouldn't regularly crit, shielding it will "anti-crit" it down by as much dmg as critting it would boost it.

 

More attacks in PvP are kinetic/energy than people realize. Take for instance the much lauded rocket punch.. its not elemental, it's kinetic and absorbed all the same by other BHs.

 

I think you are confusing people a bit. You're putting "Shield" on too high of a pedestal for PvP. Just to clear up some confusion, a Crit can NEVER be shielded. More so, with different abilities, talents, cooldowns, many ACs can have their crit chances be so high, that it completely removes your shield chance off the table. The other way around can NEVER happen. Meaning, you cant have high enough shield to completely make crit moot.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Agooz

[Prolyfic]

I don't want to get offtopic comparing 31 pt abilities between classes as the purpose of this thread is to discuss 1.2 pvp changes and how it affects the shieldtech spec, though I will compare it with our other available specs.

 

To a class that has a lot of strong dmg abilities already, taking an ability like heat blast off gcd may not seem like much but there's a few things to keep in mind.

 

*it's elemental, thus not subject to armor or shields.

 

*it's fire, thus buffed by the talents proto burn enhancer and intimidate that adds +6% fire crit chance and fire dmg. Not a lot but better than nothing.

 

*it's 10m range, so you can use it on a target that you are about to engage or that is trying to escape

 

 

Now take it off the GCD and you have a md range attack that is not only resource-free but vents 8 heat, buffs shield absorb by 2%, and deals +392 tooltip in addition to whatever other attack you use during that GCD.

 

compare that to the AP's instant DD attack costing 8 heat and a GCD for 623 elemental tooltip dmg which is nice with bonus crit % but main purpose is to proc PFT

 

or to pyro's 949 kinetic tooltip dmg costing 16 heat Thermal Detonator that takes a gcd and 3s later to deal it's dmg which is wholly protected against by armor and shields.

 

 

It's difficult to compare it to other classes like Jugg and Assassin because they have a completely different core of abilities to synergize their talents with, but as far as bounty hunter specs go, Heat Blast is doing well at the moment.

[Sambailey]

Alright, I can respect that. What you say is true. But could we get a little love by adding in a "High Threat" to it? OK, sorry about off topic.

[Prolyfic]

I think you are confusing people a bit. You're putting "Shield" on too high of a pedestal for PvP. Just to clear up some confusion, a Crit can NEVER be shielded. More so, with different abilities, talents, cooldowns, many ACs can have their crit chances be so high, that it completely removes your shield chance off the table. The other way around can NEVER happen. Meaning, you cant have high enough shield to completely make crit moot.

 

In my referenced thread, the points you raise are the topic of discussion.

 

If the attacker hits, then a second roll is made with the crit chance of the attacker versus the shield chance of the target. If a Crit or a Shield occurs then the damage is adjusted up or down (based on Surge/Absorb), and then it goes through to the armor and damage resistance.

 

So you are exactly right. By definition, a crit is an unshielded hit. It's a win on the second roll in the combat mechanics: crit vs shield chance with a crit result. Having a higher shield chance reduces your opponents chance to crit you. it doesn't mean you shield their crits when they do happen, it means you lessen the frequency of them.

 

Shield absorb chance ONLY comes into play if the Shieldtech wins the crit vs shield chance roll with a shielded result. the incoming noncritical's dmg is then reduced by a % of your shield absorb then sent to your armor for further dmg resist reduction.

 

 

More so, with different abilities, talents, cooldowns, many ACs can have their crit chances be so high, that it completely removes your shield chance off the table. The other way around can NEVER happen. Meaning, you cant have high enough shield to completely make crit moot.

 

Though buffs can push crit high enough to counter shield, those are short term situational buffs like the BH's explosive fuel or passive boosts to only a single ability with a lengthy CD or high energy cost. They comprise a SMALL portion of the total time spent soaking dmg in pvp.

 

In EFs case we're looking at 15s uptime out of every 2min. The other 1:45 we are spent shielding regularly, and during the 15s of the buff which CAN cancel out our shield chance entirely, our shield chance also acts as a "buffer" to prevent the +crit chance buff on our opponent from buffing him as much as against other classes.

 

so relative to a unshielded target of those high crit chance buffs, we are still much better mitigated of their dmg with a shield in hand and a high shield chance.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Prolyfic

[Agooz]

In my referenced thread, the points you raise are the topic of discussion.

 

 

 

So you are exactly right. By definition, a crit is an unshielded hit. It's a win on the second roll in the combat mechanics: crit vs shield chance with a crit result. Having a higher shield chance reduces your opponents chance to crit you. it doesn't mean you shield their crits when they do happen, it means you lessen the frequency of them.

 

Shield absorb chance ONLY comes into play if the Shieldtech wins the crit vs shield chance roll with a shielded result. the incoming noncritical's dmg is then reduced by a % of your shield absorb then sent to your armor for further dmg resist reduction.

 

Though buffs can push crit high enough to counter shield, those are short term situational buffs like the BH's explosive fuel or passive boosts to only a single ability with a lengthy CD or high energy cost. They comprise a SMALL portion of the total time spent soaking dmg in pvp.

 

In EFs case we're looking at 15s uptime out of every 2min. The other 1:45 we are spent shielding regularly, and during the 15s of the buff which CAN cancel out our shield chance entirely, our shield chance also acts as a "buffer" to prevent the +crit chance buff on our opponent from buffing him as much as against other classes.

 

so relative to a unshielded target of those high crit chance buffs, we are still much better mitigated of their dmg with a shield in hand and a high shield chance.

 

I understand all that. And I appreciate you making it clearer for everyone else. I just wanted to clarify your original post about shield "reducing" crit. A tank in pvp is essential and can be very effective. In fact when I tank in pvp I always go for a 31spec as opposed to an Ironfist variant. I just wanted to make sure "new" STs dont go in WZ expecting Shield to perform as well as in PvE.

On the note of Heat Blast, I also feel that the change IS a buff. Especially for PvP where shield is less effective, heat becomes much more of an issue. Having Heat Blast off of cooldown along with the points you made, I think is extremely important in a pvp tank spec.

[Taunque]

I think the main thing favoring Shield specs at the moment is the dominance of Marauders with the relative downfall of Sorcerers. Now shields can actually make a difference against the biggest threat in the current metagame.

 

Now the big question is whether to stick with the Tech set or go Supercommando?

[TheronFett]

Shield absorb chance ONLY comes into play if the Shieldtech wins the crit vs shield chance roll with a shielded result. the incoming noncritical's dmg is then reduced by a % of your shield absorb then sent to your armor for further dmg resist reduction.

 

It should also be noted that you cannot shield or absorb a critical hit.

[Umpire]

When did shield chance change? Shield chance has always been pretty garbage in PVP due to the fact that most attacks AREN'T kinetic/physical like someone else said.

[Taunque]

When did shield chance change? Shield chance has always been pretty garbage in PVP due to the fact that most attacks AREN'T kinetic/physical like someone else said.

 

Well if anything our shield chance has decreased a bit. But if Marauders and Snipers are mowing you down constantly, then shields will make a difference since most of their attacks can be shielded.