The penalties for losing are TOO severe

[Astarica]

I'm not saying the current system doesn't need tweaking... but let me ask you something.

 

In this scenario you give, you have two options: 1.) Stick it out 'til the end and get your 40 commedations from medals (even if you lose) or 2.) Leave, get 0 commedations and try another warzone.

 

Now, if these are the only two options you have, how does the system encourage people to leave? Leaving is a worse penalty than staying. Let's dissect how the two options would unfold.

 

Basically what you described is why we need deserter penalty to protect the leavers from themselves. You pretty much always come out behind when you leave, because if you leave and join you're likely to either just join the game you just quit from, or another game that's losing badly. However, if you stick it out until the WZ ends, you'd presumably get a fresh start because all 16 guys in that last WZ would presumably queue at roughly the same time. In fact, if your opponent was the same faction, you've a 50% chance of ending up on the team with the awesome guys who just clownstomped you last game.

 

But because people don't know this so they hurt thesmselves and hurt others, and that's the only real reason why deserter debuff is needed so people stop doing dumb things.

 

When you consider you got about 2 minutes of WZ prep time, plus loading time, the queue time, and everything else, it's simply way too risky to give up the sure 40 commendations for a chance at 100.

[Shlamorel]

you're missing the tie breaker shlam, the daily for 3 wins is the equivalent of 4 wins.

 

You're very right - the daily is very relevant, but it's hard to calculate into math due to its random nature.

 

Since we can't predict how many warzones it'll take to get the daily done (it could take just a little time, or it could take a TON of time), I don't know a good way to calculate it into the numbers.

 

I mean, on one hand, someone could quit 2 losing warzones, then get into 3 wins back to back. On the other hand, they could quit 10 losing warzons in one night before they are able to get into their 3 wins.

 

These scenarios seem to skew the data too much to include.

[Contristo]

I have absolutly no problem with dropping out of losing WZ's now. There is no benefit in playing out a losing pug now. Win or lose you should get rewarded for playing well. Topping almost every parse and recieving the most medals in the match doesnt count for dirt now.

 

This has hit the nail on the head.

 

I am on a well populated server & before 1.2 I hardly ever saw ppl drop out from a WZ...it was a rarety.

 

Now WZ's are completely ruined by players leaving...about 80-90% of all the WZ's I played yesterday had drop-outs consistently...myself included. Before 1.2 I never ever dropped out of a warzone...because even if you played well but lost the rewards were still worth staying for the duration. The rewards for being on the losing side now are a complete joke.

 

I was quite looking forward to the new PvP content in 1.2 (even if my 3 month grind of full champion gear was being superseded by a pvp set anyone could buy for 320k credits - LOL) Now I'm left with deciding whether or not to re-subscribe as it seems PvP is the only aspect of swtor that BW keeps changing & cannot get right.

 

Another win for the premade MINORITY.

[Shlamorel]

Basically what you described is why we need deserter penalty to protect the leavers from themselves. You pretty much always come out behind when you leave, because if you leave and join you're likely to either just join the game you just quit from, or another game that's losing badly. However, if you stick it out until the WZ ends, you'd presumably get a fresh start because all 16 guys in that last WZ would presumably queue at roughly the same time. In fact, if your opponent was the same faction, you've a 50% chance of ending up on the team with the awesome guys who just clownstomped you last game.

 

But because people don't know this so they hurt thesmselves and hurt others, and that's the only real reason why deserter debuff is needed so people stop doing dumb things.

 

When you consider you got about 2 minutes of WZ prep time, plus loading time, the queue time, and everything else, it's simply way too risky to give up the sure 40 commendations for a chance at 100.

 

I agree 100%.

 

I've advocated for a deserter punishment for leavers since the beginning. I know others disagree, and that is fine, but when you look at the comms per minute, it just makes sense to just stick it out IMO.

 

It's funny because I don't even care about comms per minute... I just pvp to have fun. But I know a lot of people care about finding the fastest way to get their currency, so I figured if nothing else, they should at least consider the numbers.

 

I'd rather slowly grind comms through hard-fought losses than get more comms quickly by quitting matches that I felt were unwinnable. That's kinda what PvP is about, I thought.

 

To each his own, though.

[Jestersdead]

The system is definately broken. If I begin a warzone I will stick around even if losing and get my 40 comms. Medals are easy to attain after all. The problem lies when people quit and others join into a losing game. I joined a losing game, got 4 medals while helping out, but at the end of it 0 comms, 0 credits. There is absolutely nothing to gain by helping out a losing team. I waste 6 minutes helping them for nothing when I could just leave and try to get into a fresh game.

 

This new system encourages quitters more than ever, and seriously screws losing teams. Every losing team will generally have one person that rage quits, which then opens the revolving door for joiners, quitters, and so on. Since the reward is low to none for helping out, it hurts pvp in general.

[Shlamorel]

The system is definately broken. If I begin a warzone I will stick around even if losing and get my 40 comms. Medals are easy to attain after all. The problem lies when people quit and others join into a losing game. I joined a losing game, got 4 medals while helping out, but at the end of it 0 comms, 0 credits. There is absolutely nothing to gain by helping out a losing team. I waste 6 minutes helping them for nothing when I could just leave and try to get into a fresh game.

 

This new system encourages quitters more than ever, and seriously screws losing teams. Every losing team will generally have one person that rage quits, which then opens the revolving door for joiners, quitters, and so on. Since the reward is low to none for helping out, it hurts pvp in general.

 

I agree with you. A deserter buff of some sort would probably solve the issue given the current system.

 

I mean ideally there wouldn't be the need for deserter in the first place because we'd all be satisfied with a win or loss... but if they are gonna keep the lack of rewards for losing teams, I think a deserter buff is needed to stop the revolving door.

[Astarica]

I haven't experienced the 'join a losing game and get nothing', but my experience before 1.2 is that you get practically nothing if you arrived just as your shuttle blew up in Alderran so I'm not seeing how this is a loss. The 3 medal requirement means you can't say immolate yourself in Huttball to pick up 10 commendations really quick as a healer but I think that's quite fair. Edited April 13, 2012 by Astarica

[Vudu]

Maybe it's been said already, if it has, I'll say it again ... how is gaining less of a reward, punishment?!

 

There are only varying degrees of tangible reward in pvp and the only risk is getting embarrassed. So, somehow gaining less reward is punishment? Wow!

 

Pvper's are a whiney bunch when you consider that pve has more risk. Have you ever read a post about pve'er's complaining about the cost of item repair?

Edited April 13, 2012 by Vudu

[redfield]

I'm sorry but....what ever happened to playing and simply having fun? Why care about rewards and winning? You'll get everything you want eventually.

[Kanana]

I'm sorry but....what ever happened to playing and simply having fun? Why care about rewards and winning? You'll get everything you want eventually.

 

Cause the current system makes more people quit losing Warzones, the fun of pvp is diminished. If you start losing you'll likely have people quit since they'll get no reward anway, so you end up outnumbered and losing even worse.

 

So, the current system actively harms the fun part of pvp.

[HelinCarnate]

I agree 100%.

 

I've advocated for a deserter punishment for leavers since the beginning. I know others disagree, and that is fine, but when you look at the comms per minute, it just makes sense to just stick it out IMO.

 

It's funny because I don't even care about comms per minute... I just pvp to have fun. But I know a lot of people care about finding the fastest way to get their currency, so I figured if nothing else, they should at least consider the numbers.

 

I'd rather slowly grind comms through hard-fought losses than get more comms quickly by quitting matches that I felt were unwinnable. That's kinda what PvP is about, I thought.

 

To each his own, though.

 

But if your hard fought losses give you 0 rewards you are not grinding comms, you are helping soemone else to advance at the expence of your time.

[eHug]

I'm sorry but....what ever happened to playing and simply having fun? Why care about rewards and winning? You'll get everything you want eventually.

 

Yeah, a few months of getting roflstomped by good gear guys sounds like great fun.

Edited April 13, 2012 by eHug

[Shlamorel]

But if your hard fought losses give you 0 rewards you are not grinding comms, you are helping soemone else to advance at the expence of your time.

 

Hard fight losses don't give 0 rewards. In a hard fought loss, one will get a few medals at the very least, which give commedations, valor, etc. Medals are much easier to obtain now than they were before 1.2. They are given more frequently from many things.

 

Saying a hard-fought loss gives 0 rewards is not true. It may give less than it used to, but through medals one can at least earn something while they are there.

 

I also posted some math earlier which showed how the most efficient way to grind comms is to stay in losing warzone matches and maximize the medals you receive... so even hard fought losses count as grinding comms.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Shlamorel

[HurrDurrCur]

i understand what you are saying, but the way it is now, with bad armor you will usually lose. with little to no rewards for losing, you cannot get good armor.

 

it's a giant catch-22.

 

it's even worse if you are on the non-dominant faction and you also have to deal with 1/2 filled teams, people quiting like crazy, etc.

 

whether you like the idea in theory or not, this does not and will not work in practice.

 

btw, your post would make a lot more sense if it had less to do with gear and faction disparities and more about skill.

 

 

 

Thats a common misconception.

 

 

You loose because your team is unccordinated and all over the place.

 

 

You win when your team works together and focus's fire.

[eHug]

Thats a common misconception.

 

 

You loose because your team is unccordinated and all over the place.

 

 

You win when your team works together and focus's fire.

 

So you say having good pvp gear that increases your stats a lot isn't needed to win?

Edited April 13, 2012 by eHug

[Sir-Coffee]

But if your hard fought losses give you 0 rewards you are not grinding comms, you are helping soemone else to advance at the expence of your time.

 

This.

[Paitryn]

But if your hard fought losses give you 0 rewards you are not grinding comms, you are helping soemone else to advance at the expence of your time.

 

thats why i think the old comm system worked well enough, just put in the leaver penalty.

 

pre patch it wasnt bad on my server. RPPVP so we are pretty competitive. it was bad early on but when there was decent rewards for staying in the fight. people stayed. Now its going back to bad.

 

I think the idea came about when players didnt leave yet still quit the match. I saw a lot of pugs stop fighting at the 3 cap mark on alderaan and just camp their only node for def medals. or go to the enemy node naked and start dancing till the match was over. Funny if your the winner. aggrivating if your the loser.

 

the new system is a lot different. Warzone comms mean a lot more now than they did pre patch. the avg person grinding battlemaster got 2 maybe 3 pieces a week when you needed 13. so about 4 to 6 weeks of grinding. (some people more.) and that was pvping almost all the playtime and turning in dailies and weeklies.

 

Im pretty sure the idea was that on avg the new system (given a 50/50 win/loss rate) would take the same time for recruit-BM and from BM-WH, and that time would be about the same as before. but its pretty obvious that some groups will be in full WH A LOT faster than others with the current system. I still needed some BM pieces for my full set and i got those quickly and already saving for WH. but i have a good team and we win a lot more than lose.

 

I'll admit that this system doesn't work for those that do not have that same fortune and should be changed. Sorry to the others that like to faceroll low geared or undergeared folks. I like to be challenged on my skill level more than my gear level.

[Sir-Coffee]

Hard fight losses don't give 0 rewards. In a hard fought loss, one will get a few medals at the very least, which give commedations, valor, etc. Medals are much easier to obtain now than they were before 1.2. They are given more frequently from many things.

 

Saying a hard-fought loss gives 0 rewards is not true. It may give less than it used to, but through medals one can at least earn something while they are there.

 

I also posted some math earlier which showed how the most efficient way to grind comms is to stay in losing warzone matches and maximize the medals you receive... so even hard fought losses count as grinding comms.

 

40 Comms, 0 Credits. Valor is worthless, so yeah... 40 Comms is pretty much a waste of time.

[Paitryn]

Hard fight losses don't give 0 rewards. In a hard fought loss, one will get a few medals at the very least, which give commedations, valor, etc. Medals are much easier to obtain now than they were before 1.2. They are given more frequently from many things.

 

Saying a hard-fought loss gives 0 rewards is not true. It may give less than it used to, but through medals one can at least earn something while they are there.

 

I also posted some math earlier which showed how the most efficient way to grind comms is to stay in losing warzone matches and maximize the medals you receive... so even hard fought losses count as grinding comms.

 

Some losses are currently reporting zero rewards. Ive also reported bugs on them not counted towards my armaments as well. I went into one full match and earned 0 honor, xp, valor, and credits. Im sure this is actually a bug and not meant to be. but currently this has been the case.

[Niil]

...Now, if these are the only two options you have, how does the system encourage people to leave? Leaving is a worse penalty than staying. Let's dissect how the two options would unfold.

 

<snip>

 

So... here's some interesting data. **(Please click the spoiler tag at bottom of post to see the math involved)**

 

Guranteed minimum comms per minute if you don't quit warzones = 4 comms per minute

Guranteed minimum comms per minute if you quit 1st match = 0 comms per minute

 

Max comms per minute if you don't quit warzones = 10 comms per minute

Max comms per minute if you quit 1st match: 7.69 comms per minute

 

In conclusion you are going to make more commedations per minute by staying in certain-loss warzones than you would if you quit the certain-loss warzones.

 

And all your math goes out the window when people end up leaving because A.) They're getting close to no commendations and B.) They're not having fun getting smashed by a premade or by a team that outclasses them gearwise to a degree that it's not even close to a competition.

 

You got A figured out, but getting commendations is not the only reason people play. I will tell you, without a doubt, if I'm facing a premade and it looks like it's a waste of my time I will bail. I'd rather queue back up and get in another game where I enjoy the time I'm spending getting comms than get stuck in a loss that's also unfun due to gear disparity or premade.

[dprijadi]

thats why i think the old comm system worked well enough, just put in the leaver penalty.

 

Yes i agree with you , this is better way to handle it..

 

- Revert to same Reward system in 1.15

- Punish Deserter

- Punish AFK-er or Loafers

 

No need to punish losing teams just because the LOST.. without LOSERs there is no WINNERS

[Menzzoban]

For me its simple. I play on a server where imps win most of the time. My sage now does less healing and gets killed in 2 or 3 hits. I get virtually no reward no matter how hard I try. Not playing PVP again until its changed.

[Shlamorel]

40 Comms, 0 Credits. Valor is worthless, so yeah... 40 Comms is pretty much a waste of time.

 

How is it a waste of time? You get more commedations than you would by quitting.

 

Are you saying that credits are why you PvP? If not, then I'm confused why you PvP. Is it to grind commedations, credits, or what?

[Shlamorel]

getting commendations is not the only reason people play.

 

if I'm facing a premade and it looks like it's a waste of my time I will bail. I'd rather queue back up and get in another game where I enjoy the time I'm spending getting comms.

 

 

I'm confused.

 

You're saying you don't need to get comms to have fun, but you also say that getting coms is the only way you can enjoy the warzone?.

 

I have a legit question, just out of curiosity. Let's say you're getting the worst beat down you've ever had in a warzone, and you have 0% chance of winning. Would you be more likely to stay if you got more rewards even for losing? Would you be more likely to quit with the current system (i.e., very little reward?). Answer both if you can.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Shlamorel

[Spiderbubble]

How is it a waste of time? You get more commedations than you would by quitting.

 

Are you saying that credits are why you PvP? If not, then I'm confused why you PvP. Is it to grind commedations, credits, or what?

 

PvE players make bank. The nice bonus credits you used to get from PvP kept the two on an even footing money-wise.

 

I liked to PvP a lot pre-1.2 with non-50s and 50 characters alike. I basically did this to level some characters up (I'd already seen the quests, why see them again?) and I enjoyed it. It also was nice to get credits off of this because it got quite expensive to pay for new skills, gear, and crew skills. This can no longer happen anywhere near as efficiently.

 

On top of that, I got full Columi and then PvPd with Champion gear. Twice a week, I would do a PvE raid for fun and Rakata gear. I now have full Rakata, but my wallet diminished greatly while this happened, because of the fact that PvP already didn't pay for the repair costs. Now, the repair costs are also lower, but with all the new Legacy things costing so much, it's still going to be a money sink. I got stuck doing the boring daily quests on Belsavis/Ilum for money. I don't want to do that. I want to have fun PvPing instead!