The Bounty Hunter’s Guide to PFT: An Advanced Prototype Special

[dardack]

Actually your dps ends up being higher calculated than the BiS rated set ;p. The spreadsheet calc's your dps as

 

1522.52 Norse without the use of Retractable Blade

1557.49 Norse with the use of Retractable Blade.

1616.59 Standard AP Rotation/Build

 

 

It's odd because at your stat setting you have a net gain by using RB, while at my level RB is a net loss.

 

According to the stat weight calculator the stat that you would gain the most by adding would be Crit, Aim, Power than tech power for norse, while in a standard Rotation/Build Aim would be your highest per point spent.

 

Crit would gain you a net dps of 19.06 for every 50.

Aim would gain you a net dps of 19 for every 50

 

Interesting, how accurate?

 

And standard AP/rotation with all the RS talents? Eh I'll stick with no RS for now. Yes i Know my crit is a bit low.

 

EDIT: Oh wait I gave you my PVE stats. Herp derp.

 

So stats pvp:

1808 Aim

147 cunning

 

BWD: 268-497

Power 487

crit: 171

surge 153

Expertise 1121

accuracy 359

Tech power 1224

Edited April 23, 2012 by dardack

[TheOpf]

Interesting, how accurate?

 

And standard AP/rotation with all the RS talents? Eh I'll stick with no RS for now. Yes i Know my crit is a bit low.

 

EDIT: Oh wait I gave you my PVE stats. Herp derp.

 

So stats pvp:

1808 Aim

147 cunning

 

BWD: 268-497

Power 487

crit: 171

surge 153

Expertise 1121

accuracy 359

Tech power 1224

 

I wanted the pve stats. PVE stats give you the maximum amount of dps. As to how accurate, I am not sure. I didn't do the spreadsheet. I simply used it, and it seems fairly accurate. The dps numbers listed are using perfect rotation, heat management, and time on boss for 5 minutes at 1000 sims. So obviously it won't be perfect since most of us at one time or another screw up your heat cycle.

 

I still see using RB even with 1/3 in the buff talent is a dps increase which makes sense at your gear level. The dps increase for a full RS rotation is going to be a higher theoretical dps. I figured that we already understood that. There is no way that using RS is a dps loss. The problem is that you have no ability to do anything else, and can actually lose dps if not played perfectly.

 

I prefer the Norse build for simplified rotation, and better utility and defensive abilities. I am actually pretty glad it's 4.7 percent of a Standard full AP/rotation. 1552 - 1616 is really close in terms of overall dps in pve.

 

In terms of maximum dps outputs using a sim spread sheet and your pve stats, we see the dps outputs like this

 

Pyro - by 2-7 percent depending on spec

Full AP with RS/RB

Maverick

Norse

 

The Norse and Maverick are within 20 dps of each other. Pyro is about 50-90 dps higher than Full AP currently. Which puts deep Pyro at close to 10-11 percent higher than a Norse build. This seems like the trees are working as intended in relation to the specs.

 

It also means that there is no reason why you can't play successfully in pve as AP. It's dps is inline, and still better than some of the other classes.

Edited April 23, 2012 by TheOpf

[dardack]

I wanted the pve stats. PVE stats give you the maximum amount of dps. As to how accurate, I am not sure. I didn't do the spreadsheet. I simply used it, and it seems fairly accurate. The dps numbers listed are using perfect rotation, heat management, and time on boss for 5 minutes at 1000 sims. So obviously it won't be perfect since most of us at one time or another screw up your heat cycle.

 

I still see using RB even with 1/3 in the buff talent is a dps increase which makes sense at your gear level. The dps increase for a full RS rotation is going to be a higher theoretical dps. I figured that we already understood that. There is no way that using RS is a dps loss. The problem is that you have no ability to do anything else, and can actually lose dps if not played perfectly.

 

I prefer the Norse build for simplified rotation, and better utility and defensive abilities. I am actually pretty glad it's 4.7 percent of a Standard full AP/rotation. 1552 - 1616 is really close in terms of overall dps in pve.

 

In terms of maximum dps outputs using a sim spread sheet and your pve stats, we see the dps outputs like this

 

Pyro - by 2-7 percent depending on spec

Full AP with RS/RB

Maverick

Norse

 

The Norse and Maverick are within 20 dps of each other. Pyro is about 50-90 dps higher than Full AP currently. Which puts deep Pyro at close to 10-11 percent higher than a Norse build. This seems like the trees are working as intended in relation to the specs.

 

It also means that there is no reason why you can't play successfully in pve as AP. It's dps is inline, and still better than some of the other classes.

 

Except mara's. Freaking mara's.

 

Yea I love Norse for spamability without having to worry about heat. Easier to focus on other things.

[TheOpf]

Except mara's. Freaking mara's.

 

Yea I love Norse for spamability without having to worry about heat. Easier to focus on other things.

 

I was simply stating where all the PT dps was at currently using your stats as a basis and maximum rotation, uptime, and heat management.

 

Pyro - depending on spec - 1650-1708 dps

Full AP with RS/RB - 1616-1646

Maverick - 1573

Norse with RB - 1550

Norse without RB - 1515.

 

So they are all well within 10 percent of each other. I don't see a reason why you couldn't use every single one of the builds and be competitive in terms of pve dps. Remember these dps numbers are spreadsheet calculations, and don't take into account movement times, stuns, avoiding damage spots and other things that can cause your dps to drop.

 

Interesting Note: Pyro actually suffers the highest dps loss by using the wrong rotation. You can see a dps drop to 1600 by not having Incendiary Missile in the rotation. Or by using the wrong priority, your dps will drop down even lower.

[Agooz]

I was simply stating where all the PT dps was at currently using your stats as a basis and maximum rotation, uptime, and heat management.

 

Pyro - depending on spec - 1650-1708 dps

Full AP with RS/RB - 1616-1646

Maverick - 1573

Norse with RB - 1550

Norse without RB - 1515.

 

So they are all well within 10 percent of each other. I don't see a reason why you couldn't use every single one of the builds and be competitive in terms of pve dps. Remember these dps numbers are spreadsheet calculations, and don't take into account movement times, stuns, avoiding damage spots and other things that can cause your dps to drop.

 

Interesting Note: Pyro actually suffers the highest dps loss by using the wrong rotation. You can see a dps drop to 1600 by not having Incendiary Missile in the rotation. Or by using the wrong priority, your dps will drop down even lower.

 

Hey TheOpf, can you please plug this spec in and give us the numbers? Thanks

2/31/8 Running in CGC + RS/RB. (Combat Tech PvE set)

Edited April 23, 2012 by Agooz

[TheOpf]

Hey TheOpf, can you please plug this spec in and give us the numbers? Thanks

2/31/8 Running in CGC + RS/RB. (Combat Tech PvE set)

 

Wow, some seriously disappointing news for those running AP with HEGC. BTW, I ran this using dardack's stats. I use him as a test dummy since all his numbers are already in the system and it gives us a baseplate. If you want me to run it comparable to yours i will need your information.

 

Full AP with CGC and RS = 1670 dps.

 

AP WITH CGC and Norse rotation = 1631

 

AP WITH CGC snare using RS rotation = 1628

 

Points of Interest:

 

1. CGC is huge it's the 2nd highest dps output on the list.
   
2. HEC adds approximately 200 damage to PFT and FB per use which is still worse than CGC's overall damage.
   

 

Rotation for CGC build is

FT_5

RP_FREE

IMMO

RAIL_CRIT

RB

FB

 

I think you would have to seriously watch heat management in an extended fight though. I wonder how tough the heat management would be?

 

RP is pretty much your only heat management. You would have to use Rapid shots anytime your heat went above 40.

I will add these to the first page since the dps alone is better than the standard AP. I am going to test the CGC slow one for pvp and see how it holds up.

 

4pc Combat tech pve only added 10 dps maximum to Dardack's stats.

 

Possible note: I have heard reports from Vanguards that PG/PFT isn't adding the 50 percent damage when they aren't in HEC/HEGC. I will test it today using the the CGC build (we could call this one the Tibetan Candle ;p) The slow and added dps is nice, but I want to see how feasible it is with your only heat management being RS and RP_Free.

Edited April 23, 2012 by TheOpf

[dardack]

4pc Combat tech pve only added 10 dps maximum to Dardack's stats.

 

[/i]

 

Just a questoin. Did you take into account the loss of 5*18 aim loss in going to 4pc for now (until i get black hole).

[TheOpf]

Just a questoin. Did you take into account the loss of 5*18 aim loss in going to 4pc for now (until i get black hole).

 

No I didn't I was just seeing what the difference is if I add a set bonus to your current stats or take it away.

[TheOpf]

So I spent all day yesterday running the CGC/Plasma Cell build, It's a heat nightmare in waiting. If you don't micromanage your heat than you overheat quickly. You cannot simply go 5 stacks to PFT/PG and weave in Gut/RB and Rail/HiB or you will overheat instantly.

 

Priority Rotation:

 

FT_5/PC_5

RP_FREE/SS_FREE

IMMO/FP

RAIL_CRIT/HIB_CRIT

RB/GUT

FB/IP

 

However there are two major changes - Rocket Punch/StockStrike must be used everytime it's free or you run into some serious heat issues. Rapid shots has to be used everytime your heat gets to 40 which essentially means every two attacks.

 

So essentially your rotation would be down this line

 

Immolate/Fire Pulse - Retractable Blade/Gut - Rocket Punch (Free)/Stock Strike (free) - Flame Burst/Ion Pulse x 2 - Rapid Shots/Hammer Shot - Flame Burst/Ion Pulse - Rail Shot/HiB (Crit) - Rocket Punch/StockStrike (free) - Flame Burst/Ion Pulse - PFT/PG - Rapid Shots - Repeat

 

Oddly enough this does more damage than following the 12 second rule of PFT/PG because CGC is always on the target.

[TheOpf]

It has been mentioned in another thread that we might best be suited to push Immolate until it's right before PFT in order to best utilize it's low energy cost.

 

 

Agooz - Have you done any testing yet on the CGC build? I have been using it for two days, and it's very effective. Though the heat management is brutally tough.

[dardack]

It has been mentioned in another thread that we might best be suited to push Immolate until it's right before PFT in order to best utilize it's low energy cost.

 

 

Agooz - Have you done any testing yet on the CGC build? I have been using it for two days, and it's very effective. Though the heat management is brutally tough.

 

That heat management is just too crazy for me right now in PvP at least. PVE I'd do alright. Plus the AOE of PFT is awesome.

 

BTW I noticed you said my stats were better then BiS gear. That's likely due to 9 Augmented pieces (rakata belt/bracer/relic, 5 WH pieces, pistol) with all 18 Aim/12 End augments.

 

Although the post about aim/power, now I have to decide.

[TheOpf]

That heat management is just too crazy for me right now in PvP at least. PVE I'd do alright. Plus the AOE of PFT is awesome.

 

BTW I noticed you said my stats were better then BiS gear. That's likely due to 9 Augmented pieces (rakata belt/bracer/relic, 5 WH pieces, pistol) with all 18 Aim/12 End augments.

 

Although the post about aim/power, now I have to decide.

 

Yeah I am two days into the Tibetan Candle now, and the Heat management is crazy. The burst is significant when you hammer someone with RB ticks/CGC ticks/PFT. The rotation gets pushed to 20 seconds for a full rotation. It's quite ardorous. I can see how when played right it would maximize dps. I am just tired of sore fingers from trying to hit the right button at the right time.

 

It's definitely dominating in PVE, with just me and a tank we can wipe out a bosses health. We lost a dps in a HM Flashpoint last night, and the boss still went down in the same time. It's a very nice spec because your dots keep ticking even when you get punted away. However the heat management is really tough if you aren't constantly watching it.

 

In PvP, I love the constant slows from Hamstring, to CGC, and finishing with PFT. However, I have been using my Vent Heat button as soon as it comes off Cooldown. My damage is way up, but that might also be because my gear has been getting better.

 

Tibetan Candle: More consistent damage and slows.

Norse: Easier Rotation and more un-mitiigated burst

Full AP: Higher extended burst

 

From my tests this is how the three trees tend to break down.

[Agooz]

Agooz - Have you done any testing yet on the CGC build? I have been using it for two days, and it's very effective. Though the heat management is brutally tough.

 

No I havent. But I am sure I will come to the same conclusion as others. Very heat intensive, crazy to mange, not so much viable for PvP, and OK in PvE. I am not too crazy about playing something that will force me to do more Rapid Shots. I was just curious about the numbers.

[dardack]

So norse (the 1 pointinto improved RB) does more damage then not doing RB?

 

EDIT:

I'm a freaking idiot, I must of been trying the Slow for RB and Forgot to respec out of it. And no I hardly use RB. FML.

Edited April 25, 2012 by dardack

[TheOpf]

So norse (the 1 pointinto improved RB) does more damage then not doing RB?

 

EDIT:

I'm a freaking idiot, I must of been trying the Slow for RB and Forgot to respec out of it. And no I hardly use RB. FML.

 

Yes, the 1 point improved RB/Gut is a dps increase at least in a pve environment. In PvP, I use it when I am facing anyone with greater than 50 percent health as it's a dps loss if it doesn't get all 15 ticks. Taugrim actually pointed this out to me.

 

UPDATE NOTE: I added the Tibetan Candle build for those who enjoy the high damage/micro management.

[Anavarra]

[pulling the rotation conversation out of the CGC thread]

After spending some time looking at damage parses and simulators, I've noticed that the standard AP rotation can be tightened up to improve damage, maximize consistency and simplify heat management, within a PvE context. Please note that this is being approached from a purely PvE sustainability context, not a burst PvP context.

 

The primary change is to realize that PFT x5 is unnecessary for sustaining maximum damage in prolonged PvE fights. Why is that? Well, let's see.

I pulled these numbers from the BH DPS sim on Sithwarrior, but they match up with what I've seen from in-game parses. Since these are simulated averages, there’s some variation between sims, but usually not significantly.

 

Rail Shot (crit)

Average Damage: 2578

Average Damage per GCD: 2578

Average Damage per heat: 161.125

Immolate

Average Damage: 2296

Average Damage per GCD: 2296

Average Damage per heat: 287

Flame Thrower (1 PFT stack)

Average Damage: 4236 (3851 (BASE) + 385 (PFTx1))

Average Damage per GCD: 2118

Average Damage per heat: 169.44

Retractable Blade (initial + 5 bleed ticks)

Average Damage: 2384.4

Average Damage per GCD: 2384.4

Average Damage per heat: 149.025

Flame Burst

Average Damage: 1632

Average Damage per GCD: 1632

Average Damage per heat: 102

Rocket Punch (free)

Average Damage: 1642

Average Damage per GCD: 1642

Average Damage per heat: Infinite

 

What this shows us should be fairly obvious. Using high damage abilities whenever possible will increase DPS, while postponing higher damage abilities for low damage ones will decrease DPS. This is interesting though, because of Flame Thrower. Even with only one stack of PFT, Flame Thrower's average damage per GCD is pretty close to Immolate, and its damage per heat generation is better than anything besides Immolate. With more PFT stacks it's even higher of course, but there's an opportunity cost for stacking PFT up (past 1, assuming we get 1 stack every 15-seconds from Immolate); namely, you have to burn a GCD on Flame Burst, and incur the heat that entails. In order for that opportunity cost to be worth it, you would have to ensure that the DPS value of Flame Burst + 10% of the base DPS value of Flame Thrower (+1 stack of PFT) was higher than whatever else you would do, and that the heat generation is not prohibitive. Looking at the numbers though, if Flame Burst’s average damage is 1632, and 1 stack of PFT is worth about 385, then the net damage gain is about 2017 per GCD. This is less damage than you’d get simply triggering Flame Thrower with PFT x1, and significantly less than anything else on the list except Rocket Punch. Now, practically, you’ll probably never have Flame Thrower with less than PFT x3, which makes the problem elementary (DPS per GCD for FT PFTx3 is 2503). It’s much better to just burn Flame Thrower than to let it sit off cooldown and try to build more PFT stacks.

So, based on these numbers, it seems that postponing Flame Thrower (regardless of PFT stacks), Immolate, Rail Shot (crit), or Retractable Blade for Flame Burst would be a loss of DPS.

 

Which leads us to the AP rotation. In an ideal situation, we would do something like what's listed in the first post of the guide, which is:

08 - Immolate

16 - Retractable Blade

00 - Rocket Punch (Free)

16 - Rail Shot (CRIT)

16 - Flame Burst

16 - Flame Burst

16 - Flame Burst

16 - Flame Burst

25 - Flame Thrower (PFT x5)

 

This is, of course, an unsustainable rotation. Under ideal conditions, the first execution will push you past 40 heat when you hit Flame Thrower, and a repetition would leave you heat locked before your second Flame Thrower. TSO and Vent Heat can prolong this, but even with judicious application of those, you will still heat lock in <60 seconds. Thus, while useful for demonstrating a max DPS rotation for AP, the above rotation must be modified if we're going to develop a sustained damage rotation.

 

Based on the above values, we know that, regardless of PFT stacks, we still want to use Flame Thrower on cooldown. Thus logically, we have to cut enough heat generation from the 15-second rotation to make it heat neutral, while still triggering primary abilities on cooldown. Optimally, we would also want to space our no heat abilities so that we could use Rocket Punch as often as possible on cooldown. The only candidates to remove are Flame Bursts, since they have the lowest DPS contribution per heat generated.

 

By cutting two Flame Bursts from the rotation, and slightly reorganizing the abilities, we can achieve the following.

 

16 - Retractable Blade

00 - FILLER 1

16 - Flame Burst

16 - Flame Burst

00 - FILLER 2

16 - Rail Shot (CRIT) - Flame Burst if Charged Gauntlets isn't up

08 - Immolate

00 - FILLER 3

25 - Flame Thrower

<repeat>

 

The FILLER is, in priority:

Flame Burst (heat permitting, it usually won't)

Rocket Punch (FREE)

Rapid Shots

 

There are multiple advantages to this rotation:

1. It is functionally heat neutral. Simulating heat output, this rotation can go for 8-cycles (2-minutes) before having to engage TSO/Vent Heat. Simulating a minimum of 3% error in ability activation time (i.e. no human can actually achieve a perfect 15-second cycle due to server lag, ability delay, etc. so we assume it takes 15.5 seconds), the rotation becomes heat neutral. This is because our passive heat dispersion is constant, even if we're a half-second off on the rotation. In practice, any error margin over 3% makes the rotation heat negative, and allows for more FILLER to be Flame Bursts. For reference, my error margin with hitting training dummies was about 11%.

2. You can make it more bursty and stack to PFT x5 by replacing the first and third fillers with Flame bursts, and using TSO and Vent Heat to cool down. This makes it a little more bursty, since you get a Rail Shot Crit, Immolate, Flame Burst, Flame Thrower PFT x5 combination at the end of the rotation. Of course, this isn't sustainable without heat management cooldowns.

3. This rotation triggers all of our high damage abilities on cooldown (or refresh for Retractable Blade). It never pushes back triggering a high priority ability for a lower priority ability.

4. This rotation maximizes the use of Rocket Punch (free). The three Fillers are placed precisely so that, if you're reasonable lucky with Flame Barrage procs off of Flame Burst, you will be able to use Rocket Punch every other Filler, or, roughly on cooldown. For example, if you Rocket Punch on FILLER 3 (after Immolate), RP will be ready again for FILLER 2 on the next cycle, and, with two Flame bursts, you'll have ~51% chance of having Flame Barrage up. If you Rocket Punch on FILLER 2, then you Rapid Shots on FILLER 3, then Rocket Punch will be up for FILLER 1 to eat the Flame Barrage Proc from your previous Immolate.

5. This rotation maximizes heat dispersion by placing Flame Thrower (our most dangerous heat spike) immediately after a 3-second heat-negative period (Immolate followed by FILLER). This ensures that the Heat Spike from Flame Thrower doesn't push us into poor heat dispersion country.

6. It’s pretty easy to do. Tracking multiple cooldowns and dots is a pain with SWTOR’s UI. Trigging abilities on Cooldown in consistent sequence is significantly easier to execute without mistake.

 

The only downside is that you’ll never stack PFT x5 without using 2-minute cooldowns to dispel your heat. On the other hand, as I pointed out with the damage numbers above, there’s no reason to stack PFT to 5 if it means delaying using it when it’s off cooldown. Especially since you’ll always have at least PFT x3.

 

I’ve played with this for DPS in live and it plays very well. All of your 15-second abilities go off on cooldown, Retractable Blade always stays up, Rocket Punch is used practically on cooldown, and Rapid Shots is kept to a bare minimum.

 

The DPS simulator sheet that I have can’t execute this rotation correctly due to the fact that it was designed to work with a priority system. Attempting to force it to run this rotation sort of works, but it makes a number of mistakes that contribute to lower DPS. However, despite those mistakes, it still sims to .005% of the sheet’s “standard AP” priority system, which leads me to believe that, if executed properly, it would exceed a standard AP priority system, while being significantly easier to execute.

Edited April 25, 2012 by Anavarra

[TheOpf]

Thanks for moving this to here. I am hoping Mapex can take a look at it since he is the Deep AP guy. I use the Norse build.

 

Did you use Kray's spreadsheet from mmo-mechanics or a different one?

 

Just so you are aware, you are still using a 12 second rotation. You are just not focused on PFTx5. You are using FT on CD which is ever 12 seconds because Channel time is 3. So you are still following the 12 second rule except without worrying about getting to full PFTx5.

 

There are a few points that I would like to point out.

 

You stated that FT x1 = similar dps as Imm. However it's a dps loss so putting off Immolate, RS Crit, or reapplying RB in order to do FTx1 is a dps loss. But using it in place of RP or FB is a dps gain.

 

I am going to work on the spreadsheet and see what I can come up with.

Edited April 25, 2012 by TheOpf

[Anavarra]

Thanks for moving this to here. I am hoping Mapex can take a look at it since he is the Deep AP guy. I use the Norse build.

 

Did you use Kray's spreadsheet from mmo-mechanics or a different one?

 

Just so you are aware, you are still using a 12 second rotation. You are just not focused on PFTx5. You are using FT on CD which is ever 12 seconds because Channel time is 3. So you are still following the 12 second rule except without worrying about getting to full PFTx5.

 

There are a few points that I would like to point out.

 

You stated that FT x1 = similar dps as Imm. However it's a dps loss so putting off Immolate, RS Crit, or reapplying RB in order to do FTx1 is a dps loss. But using it in place of RP or FB is a dps gain.

 

I am going to work on the spreadsheet and see what I can come up with.

 

For the sim numbers, I used Kray’s sheet off of MMO-mechanics, yeah. That’s where I pulled the average numbers for the abilities. For comparing damage between rotations, I ran a sim with Full Rakata and the “standard AP” rotation that the sheet lists, and then ran another with the same stats, but an attempted reproduction of the rotation I’ve listed. The results were, as I mentioned, within .005%. The problem is that, because the sheet is built to simulate a priority system, it messes up this rotation. The primary issue is that it doesn’t have a separate heat threshold to prevent it from using a high heat filler right before Flame Thrower. So it heats up more frequently, which postpones higher damage abilities and drops the theoretical DPS. It also seems to have a bug with retractable blade where it won’t refresh it until at least 1 GCD has elapsed since the DOT fell off. This reduces the DOT uptime (it should be 100% with this rotation in simulation), and again, screws up the rotation.

 

WIth regards to Flame Thrower, that's definitely true. However, if you're following this rotation, you'll never have to delay one of those abilities for Flame Thrower, since the rotation is heat neutral. Additionally, you'll never Flame Thrower at less than PFT x3, which puts its Damage per GCD at about 2503. Which is better than anything except Rail Shot.

Edited April 25, 2012 by Anavarra

[TheOpf]

For the sim numbers, I used Kray’s sheet off of MMO-mechanics, yeah. That’s where I pulled the average numbers for the abilities. For comparing damage between rotations, I ran a sim with Full Rakata and the “standard AP” rotation that the sheet lists, and then ran another with the same stats, but an attempted reproduction of the rotation I’ve listed. The results were, as I mentioned, within .005%. The problem is that, because the sheet is built to simulate a priority system, it messes up this rotation. The primary issue is that it doesn’t have a separate heat threshold to prevent it from using a high heat filler right before Flame Thrower. So it heats up more frequently, which postpones higher damage abilities and drops the theoretical DPS. It also seems to have a bug with retractable blade where it won’t refresh it until at least 1 GCD has elapsed since the DOT fell off. This reduces the DOT uptime (it should be 100% with this rotation in simulation), and again, screws up the rotation.

 

WIth regards to Flame Thrower, that's definitely true. However, if you're following this rotation, you'll never have to delay one of those abilities for Flame Thrower, since the rotation is heat neutral. Additionally, you'll never Flame Thrower at less than PFT x3, which puts its Damage per GCD at about 2503. Which is better than anything except Rail Shot.

 

I have been using Dardack's numbers for everything so just kept with them here.

 

PFT

AVG Dmg = 7208.33

DPS per GCD = 3604

DPS per Heat = 288.33

 

Flame Burst

DPS per GCD = 2110.67

DPS per Heat = 131.916

 

RP Free

DPS per GCD = 2262.05

DPS per Heat = N/A

 

immolate

DPS per GCD = 2880.82

DPS per Heat = 360.102

 

RS (crit)

DPS per GCD = 3087.41

DPS per Heat = 192.963

 

Retractable Blade

DPS per GCD = 3012.73

DPS per heat = 188.295

[TheOpf]

For the sim numbers, I used Kray’s sheet off of MMO-mechanics, yeah. That’s where I pulled the average numbers for the abilities. For comparing damage between rotations, I ran a sim with Full Rakata and the “standard AP” rotation that the sheet lists, and then ran another with the same stats, but an attempted reproduction of the rotation I’ve listed. .

 

The Standard rotation in Kray's Sheet is horribly incorrect. Please don't use it.

 

Use the Priority rotation listed here

FT_5

RP_Free

Immo

Rail_Crit

RB

FB

 

That will give you the highest theoritcal damage.

On the HS have RP_Free and RS on there.

Edited April 25, 2012 by TheOpf

[Anavarra]

The Standard rotation in Kray's Sheet is horribly incorrect. Please don't use it.

 

Use the Priority rotation listed here

FT_5

RP_Free

Immo

Rail_Crit

RB

FB

 

That will give you the highest theoritcal damage.

On the HS have RP_Free and RS on there.

 

Cool, I reran my comparison with that priority and the Rakata BiS stats listed, but the variation is still only about .0051% between that priority list and the imperfect sim of the rotation setup. The issue I mentioned with how the sim refreshes Retractable Blade throws the rotation off immediately though, so I don't think that sheet is capable of actually demonstrating the max potential of this rotation.

[TheOpf]

Cool, I reran my comparison with that priority and the Rakata BiS stats listed, but the variation is still only about .0051% between that priority list and the imperfect sim of the rotation setup. The issue I mentioned with how the sim refreshes Retractable Blade throws the rotation off immediately though, so I don't think that sheet is capable of actually demonstrating the max potential of this rotation.

 

The reason you will always see a 1 sec delay between RB falling off and it because you want RB to fall off before reapplying it. So he added the time it takes to spot the fall off and reapply or factor in any lag delay. However, yes the sim will always be imperfect.

However if we simply take 20 percent off the damage or simply run it as FT used on CD instead of FT_5. It takes your total damage to 10 dps less. Which means it's completely equitable. As long as you use FT on CD as long as the stacks are between 3 and 5. You won't see a noticeable dps loss. However it's always a dps gain to wait for 5 stacks.

 

The dps lost by using it on CD between 3 and 5 stacks is less than 1 percent or 6-10 dps. The dps gained by having PFT at 5 and not using it for a GCD is a noticeable dps loss this means that unless you can use it on drop there is a greater possiblity of loss in dps by holding for 5 than by using it on CD.

 

The problem is I can't note all the various situations in a guide or it will be the longest book out there.

 

Technically speaking the maximum amount of damage you can put out in the Norse uses a Priority rotation Like this

 

Immo

RP_Free

FT_5

RB

FB

 

However the total dps difference between this rotation and the one listed is 3 dps. However not paying attention to PFT and/or using it before 5 stack is a net loss of 10 dps. So it's more important to make sure PFT gets off at 5 stacks than to use Immolate. Does this make sense?

Edited April 25, 2012 by TheOpf

[Anavarra]

Well, the sim issue with Retractable Blade is that, if you're following a 15-second rotation, you don't need to watch the debuff. You know that you're going to use Flame Thrower on cooldown, and then the RB debuff will fall off just as Flame Thrower finishes casting. The dot ends exactly 15 seconds after it's cast, and recasting it exactly 15-seconds later doesn't clip the last tick. By not using RB every 15-seconds in the sim, it's losing DPS in an otherwise mathematically perfect scenario. That pushes RB out of its spot in the rotation, and then the priority system starts making sub-optimal choices, which delay more important abilities. In other words, as you said, the sim is assuming minimal human error in refreshing the DoT in a priority system. But the rotation system doesn't rely on recognition of the debuff dropping off to know when to reapply it, so the assumption of human error there in the sim creates a cascading ability selection failure in the rotation that reduces DPS. Of course there's the other problem I mentioned earlier, with the sim using less optimal filler abilities prior to Flame Thrower as well.

 

Since we know the sim doesn't properly execute the rotation, a possible correction is to run the sim ignoring PFT, and then use the average damage numbers generated along with corrected ability usage numbers to create a DPS estimate. If we assume that the rotation is executed perfectly, no fillers are replaced with Flame Bursts, and Heat Cooldowns are only used every two minutes to maintain the rotation (basically the worst possible simulated scenario for the rotation), then we can know precisely how many times each ability is used.

 

So, running a 6-minute sim with the Standard AP priority list you mentioned earlier, and the Rakata BiS gear list, I get: ~1542 DPS

If I rerun the sim to use FT on cooldown, rebuild the ability usage numbers using the worst possible case for ability usage in the rotation, multiply with the average damage numbers from the sim (and correct the FT damage output to reflect any changes in the amount of PFT stacks generated), and recalculate DPS I get: ~1549 DPS

 

So, a small net gain in DPS, which is what would be expected based on the original average damage numbers.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Anavarra

[dardack]

Ran Story Mode Denova 16 last nite (guild had already killed HM 8 man awhile ago). Constantly in top spot, however main mara wasn't with us. But with the moving/etc. Only avg'd like 1.2k maybe more. Wasn't too focus'd on the number, just saw my green name was 1 or 2 in the raid. Was awesome on trash tho to see 3k DPS cause PFT is so OP as an AOE.

 

I did add RB into my rotation after TheOrf pointed it out.

 

Yes I don't wait for it to fall off Cause I use it right after PFT. So flame sweep before boss to get 5 stacks, rush in, PFT/RB/FB/FB(if RP free RP otherwise IMM/FB/(if RP wasn't free before it is now so RP)/FB/relics and crit ability/PFT/RB.....

 

Not sure if it's the "proper" rotation, but knowing that RB is 15sec and your hitting FT every 15, it's good to be tied together.

 

EDIT:

 

BTW in HEGC the whole time. Maybe Cause I suck, dont' want to worry about heat, or w/e. I know with the rotation above I don't even need to look at my heat bar.

Edited April 26, 2012 by dardack

[TheOpf]

Ran Story Mode Denova 16 last nite (guild had already killed HM 8 man awhile ago). Constantly in top spot, however main mara wasn't with us. But with the moving/etc. Only avg'd like 1.2k maybe more. Wasn't too focus'd on the number, just saw my green name was 1 or 2 in the raid. Was awesome on trash tho to see 3k DPS cause PFT is so OP as an AOE.

 

I did add RB into my rotation after TheOrf pointed it out.

 

Yes I don't wait for it to fall off Cause I use it right after PFT. So flame sweep before boss to get 5 stacks, rush in, PFT/RB/FB/FB(if RP free RP otherwise IMM/FB/(if RP wasn't free before it is now so RP)/FB/relics and crit ability/PFT/RB.....

 

Not sure if it's the "proper" rotation, but knowing that RB is 15sec and your hitting FT every 15, it's good to be tied together.

 

EDIT:

 

BTW in HEGC the whole time. Maybe Cause I suck, dont' want to worry about heat, or w/e. I know with the rotation above I don't even need to look at my heat bar.

 

I ran EV last night, and was in Tibetan Candle. Outside of accidentally overheating on the one where we have to 1v1 people. I had no serious heat issues. I pracitced using rapid shots as my priority every time my heat crossed 20 and (free)RP was down. I am with you Dardack in that the ease with which Norse uses heat and the rotation is fluid is awesome.

 

The CGC build is more dps, as I can drop things much faster. I was running straight pvp gear except the three pieces of tionese gear that I actually have from pveing occassionally, and was only about 5-10 percent behind our guilds top dps'ers. Granted, weaving Rapid in every single time your heat crosses 20 is pretty tough to remember.