[1.2] A Death Knell for many Healers

[klorinator]

the numbers are simply to convey the idea, the value of the numbers are arbitrary. don't get hung up on them.

 

The concept that you are working back to the same amount is the problem, In the end the amount will be higher. Difficult to see if you are shortsighted or blinded by rage.

 

go play a merc healer, that is exactly what i'm saying. there's no benefit to anything they did. combat rez - great, now i'm equal to everyone (but it doesn't add to my ability to heal), +1 kolto missile - translation, 1 more wrong target

 

"I doubt it will make as much difference to a Merc" - from my original post, I know you're in pain.

 

you should probably more appropriately describe it as "stat importance reorganization" then. to the most of us, "under the hood changes" implied that some not-easily seen number has been changed, where $10 used to buy you $10 of goods, but now buys you $9.. THAT would be under the hood changes. the value you have come to expect, is no longer the value you get.

 

what you're saying is, where $10 used to buy $10 of US goods, you should instead trade it in for $10 in Yen, and buy from japan instead.

 

Like I said either bioware lied or they were referring to something that is not considered to be underlying - augmentation for example.

[oredith]

The concept that you are working back to the same amount is the problem, In the end the amount will be higher. Difficult to see if you are shortsighted or blinded by rage.

so, you're implying that you're getting greater number with the same stats? (i know you're not, i'm just trying to clarify your language for you).

 

if you healed for X pre-1.2, are you implying that post-1.2, you're getting higher numbers with the exact same stats? (of course you're not, i'm, again, just clarifying your language for you)

 

what you're saying is, post-1.2, you are adding more stats via augments, and rearranging stats via swapping augment/enhancements, and by ADDING more stats, you're healing for almost the same amount.

 

so, to put it in dollar terms.

 

before, you could buy $10 of goods with $10.. now you can buy $10 of goods with $11..

 

so, yes, the amount would be higher, but you are mistaken. you seem to think with $10, you can buy $11 of goods, when really, what i stated above is actually the truth.

[klorinator]

so, you're implying that you're getting greater number with the same stats? (i know you're not, i'm just trying to clarify your language for you).

 

if you healed for X pre-1.2, are you implying that post-1.2, you're getting higher numbers with the exact same stats? (of course you're not, i'm, again, just clarifying your language for you)

 

what you're saying is, post-1.2, you are adding more stats via augments, and rearranging stats via swapping augment/enhancements, and by ADDING more stats, you're healing for almost the same amount.

 

so, to put it in dollar terms.

 

before, you could buy $10 of goods with $10.. now you can buy $10 of goods with $11..

 

so, yes, the amount would be higher, but you are mistaken. you seem to think with $10, you can buy $11 of goods, when really, what i stated above is actually the truth.

 

"in the end" is the key phrase. Not currently, eventually.

[oredith]

"in the end" is the key phrase. Not currently, eventually.

i think you fail at math then?

 

IF we were talking about "under the hood changes", then yes, i would agree with you. IF they actually changed the stat weight conversion, and/or the effective cap of a stat, then yes, in theory, even if it's not the case now, it MAY be the case in the future, when the gear may be more tailored toward stacking a certain stat.

 

however, we have clearly established that the stat weight (in terms of game mechanics - careful to distinguish this from PLAYER PREFERENCE) has not changed.

 

what you're advocating is that if you wait long enough:

X+A > X will somehow eventually (in the end) become:

X > X+A

[klorinator]

i think you fail at math then?

 

IF we were talking about "under the hood changes", then yes, i would agree with you. IF they actually changed the stat weight conversion, and/or the effective cap of a stat, then yes, in theory, even if it's not the case now, it MAY be the case in the future, when the gear may be more tailored toward stacking a certain stat.

 

however, we have clearly established that the stat weight (in terms of game mechanics - careful to distinguish this from PLAYER PREFERENCE) has not changed.

 

what you're advocating is that if you wait long enough:

X+A > X will somehow eventually (in the end) become:

X > X+A

 

I was simply stating that stat increase from augmented war hero gear can potentially compensate for what they have done to a heal spec sorc. Too bad you're a Merc, have fun.

[oredith]

I was simply stating that stat increase from augmented war hero gear can potentially compensate for what they have done to a heal spec sorc. Too bad you're a Merc, have fun.

actually, i'm a powertech and a tank now. only the insane still play merc healers.

[XtremJedi]

Hmmm you both seem to be engaged in a bit of miscommunication.

 

 

• It is the case that some of the overall healing output that Sorcs/Sages lost, was lost through the double-dipping 'bug fix' and the removal of the quick main heal.
  
• It is probably also the case that some of that overall healing output can be regained through extra improvements to gear.
  
• It is even quite possible that this was a part of BW's thinking in making the changes.
  

 

I think that this is essentially what Klorinator is trying to assert. Using the phrase 'under the hood' (even in inverted commas) is really just confusing the issue.

 

It is an emotive phrase, because BW asserted that there were under the hood changes in 1.2 that people weren't aware of that would improve the situation - but it turned out that there were in fact no real under the hood changes to make things better. The changes turned out to be what we could see all along. People felt that they had been lied to and misled about the 1.2 patch in no small part because of this... so it's a phrase that gets people angry.

 

If you appear to be defending BW's use of that phrase... then it will bring strong reactions.

 

Then again... to say that you're getting your "heals back where they belong" is perhaps a little misleading too. You yourself use words like 'clawing back' and 'trying to compensate' - which I think exposes the fact that you can't really get things back to where they were. That's because the problems with the 1.2 changes weren't really about healing values - they were about deep changes to play-style caused by mechanics changes and resource management changes.

 

You're trying to use the wrong tools to do the job - and while you can do that to some extent, it's a clunky attempt and lacks flow and fun. You're fighting your toolset - rather than having it work for you.

 

BW's stated goal was to nerf Sage/Sorc healing output down to a considerably lower level (closer to that of the Ops) and to make Force Management more challenging for Sages/Sorcs. If it's your assertion, that BW meant all along to return Sage/Sorc to their pre-1.2 healing output levels by including extra buffs in equipment as their 'under the hood changes'.... then that runs diametrically opposed to their stated goals at the time.

 

At the time of 1.2 - most people expected a nerf to the Sage/Sorc AoE. It was the AoE that made for a good chunk of the differential between Sage/Sorc and other classes in end-game. It was the AoE that was clearly by design unbalanced compared to the AoEs of other classes. The Sage/Sorc was always a massive and massively efficient heal when landed on a group.

 

And since BW didn't touch it... it's actually the AoE that is maintaining a lot of the Sage/Sorc healing figures now - especially since the clumsy nerfing of Force Management now means that by far the best way to regain force is to cast AoE as often as possible and use regain abilities while standing in it. Indeed, bizarrely, it's still the best force regain approach, even if you cast it and only stand in it yourself - with it healing no other people. As a result, it has become a standard Tank Heal in the rotation - which is incidentally also used to heal your own damage to yourself from regaining force.

 

 

• Using an 8 person AoE as a Tank and/or Self heal, on CD rather than situationally to actually AoE heal groups, is not getting our heals 'back where they belong'.
  
• Having no tools left that are really designed to work as spike heals (burst heals), is really not getting our heals 'back where they belong'.
  
• Still not having to make intelligent decisions about force management is really not where our classes should be.
  

 

Ach... I could go on even more about things like reduced viable casting choices, simplified casting patterns etc etc... but really, I hope I've made the point that it's difficult for some of us to hear people post things that seem to suggest that Sage/Sorc healing is actually getting back to how it should be as a result of some 'under the hood changes' - none of which really address the issues that most of us had with the 1.2 changes. And it's hard for some of us to hear people at least seeming to try to justify BW's use of the phrase 'under the hood changes' - when there really were none.

 

X

Edited May 2, 2012 by XtremJedi

[Arayla]

I don't really see how augmentations factor in to balancing our heals in the long run, we were not the only people to gain this stat increase after all.

[RuQu]

There isn't much to say that XJ didn't already cover. I will comment on two things though.

 

1) The use of augment slots to offset the changes was proposed while 1.2 was on the PTS. This fails for three reasons:

1. It means these changes disproportionately hurt new players. That's bad design.
   
2. If the high end-gear stat budget, and crafted augments, offset the nerfs, then it fails to make endgame harder, which was the stated purpose.
   
3. Class balance is completely destroyed. Merc and Op Sustained HPS were nearly equal pre-1.2. Mercs took an ~25% hit, and Ops did not. They both benefit from the increased stats on Augments, so Augments can do nothing to help Mercs catch back up.
   

 

2) The term "under the hood" is highly volatile. That you would use it means you are at least informed enough to read the Patch Notes and Dev Tracker. I don't know if you also followed the PTS threads on the topic, but your comments about "under the hood" being a lie suggest you did.

 

A lot of healers consider that phrase to be Georg Zoeller blatantly lying to us. There was very little way for people to test, due to decisions and poor planning from Bioware, so saying "there are secret changes we can't tell you about, but trust me, they make the nerfs all okay" likely seemed a safe way to pacify the shock and outrage the PTS notes generated. Unfortunately, we were able to test his claims. I ran a thread on the PTS doing exactly that. We tested everything we could think of, and asked the community for more suggestions. The only change we ever found was a stealth nerf to Rakata item budget, which was later reverted (so they said, I didn't actually test the reversion).

 

To add additional insult, at least as far as I'm concerned, Georg Zoeller was clearly aware of that testing thread. He replied in it. However, he replied to a random question buried on Page 5 or so. He made no effort to clarify what the changes were, dropped no hints to point us in the right direction, and didn't question or identify flaws in any of our tests.

 

Now, of course, the patch has gone Live, and all of the predictions based on our tests and analysis have come true. Every one. I'm not sure what metrics they are using, but they probably need to rethink them.

[oredith]

Now, of course, the patch has gone Live, and all of the predictions based on our tests and analysis have come true. Every one. I'm not sure what metrics they are using, but they probably need to rethink them.

well, they may rethink it, but they'll never admit that they were wrong.

 

it's like being pulled over by the cop for speeding:

 

"excuse me sir, do you know how fast you were going?"

"err.. yeah, i was going 97mph".. >_>

 

no, i can't believe that BW is THAT clueless to think their metrics are actually right, but I do think THEY believe that it's in their best interest to play dumb, and cut their loses (those loses being us, who wanted to play a fun healing class)

Edited May 2, 2012 by oredith

[RuQu]

well, they may rethink it, but they'll never admit that they were wrong.

 

it's like being pulled over by the cop for speeding:

 

"excuse me sir, do you know how fast you were going?"

"err.. yeah, i was going 97mph".. >_>

 

no, i can't believe that BW is THAT clueless to think their metrics are actually right, but I do think THEY believe that it's in their best interest to play dumb, and cut their loses (those loses being us, who wanted to play a fun healing class)

 

That's arrogance and pride, not prudence. It is not in their best interest to deny their mistakes. People have left not only because the Devs have made the game less fun, they also left because many people have lost any faith in the Devs at all.

 

Without admitting to mistakes made, there is no reason for those who have lost faith in the Devs to think that they have learned a lesson. They might start making good changes, but if changes in how they treat the community, interact, and in the arrogance and claim to infallibility don't come with it, I know I see little reason to have faith in them again. A good patch or two could be coincidence, without something to show that they learned from this travesty.

[Bluetickone]

There isn't much to say that XJ didn't already cover. I will comment on two things though.

 

1) The use of augment slots to offset the changes was proposed while 1.2 was on the PTS. This fails for three reasons:

1. It means these changes disproportionately hurt new players. That's bad design.
   
2. If the high end-gear stat budget, and crafted augments, offset the nerfs, then it fails to make endgame harder, which was the stated purpose.
   
3. Class balance is completely destroyed. Merc and Op Sustained HPS were nearly equal pre-1.2. Mercs took an ~25% hit, and Ops did not. They both benefit from the increased stats on Augments, so Augments can do nothing to help Mercs catch back up.
   

 

2) The term "under the hood" is highly volatile. That you would use it means you are at least informed enough to read the Patch Notes and Dev Tracker. I don't know if you also followed the PTS threads on the topic, but your comments about "under the hood" being a lie suggest you did.

 

A lot of healers consider that phrase to be Georg Zoeller blatantly lying to us. There was very little way for people to test, due to decisions and poor planning from Bioware, so saying "there are secret changes we can't tell you about, but trust me, they make the nerfs all okay" likely seemed a safe way to pacify the shock and outrage the PTS notes generated. Unfortunately, we were able to test his claims. I ran a thread on the PTS doing exactly that. We tested everything we could think of, and asked the community for more suggestions. The only change we ever found was a stealth nerf to Rakata item budget, which was later reverted (so they said, I didn't actually test the reversion).

 

To add additional insult, at least as far as I'm concerned, Georg Zoeller was clearly aware of that testing thread. He replied in it. However, he replied to a random question buried on Page 5 or so. He made no effort to clarify what the changes were, dropped no hints to point us in the right direction, and didn't question or identify flaws in any of our tests.

 

Now, of course, the patch has gone Live, and all of the predictions based on our tests and analysis have come true. Every one. I'm not sure what metrics they are using, but they probably need to rethink them.

 

I agree GZ blatently lied with the "under the hood" comment. But, what disturbs me more, and weve been round this block Ru, is the way he is developing healers based largely, likely even exclusively, based on metrics. Thats fine from a pve standpoint in SWTOR, but its laugably nonsensical in a pvp context, especially a pvp environment like SWTOR, where multiple classes have 5+ stuns and interrupts available.

 

I've contemplated simpyl shelving CMs until the situation is adjusted, but the problem is, I see no reason to believe it will be adjusted in a way that makes healing viable in pvp anymore.

[Xaearth]

I agree GZ blatently lied with the "under the hood" comment. But, what disturbs me more, and weve been round this block Ru, is the way he is developing healers based largely, likely even exclusively, based on metrics. Thats fine from a pve standpoint in SWTOR, but its laugably nonsensical in a pvp context, especially a pvp environment like SWTOR, where multiple classes have 5+ stuns and interrupts available.

 

I've contemplated simpyl shelving CMs until the situation is adjusted, but the problem is, I see no reason to believe it will be adjusted in a way that makes healing viable in pvp anymore.

 

It isn't "fine" from a PvE standpoint either.

 

We are rapidly approaching the state of healing in PvE in which a player healer could be replaced by a well scripted bot.

Hell, if you ask me we're already there, just no one cares about this game enough to make one. And that's just sad.

[Aluo]

Please take this time to learn to adjust to change because Nerfs and buffs are part of any MMO.

 

Have to be honest, you are 100% wrong.

 

Nerfs and buffs are one thing, BREAKING A CLASSES FUNCTION.... that is BAD GAME DESIGN.

 

Learn to stand up for yourself and put your foot down, if I see some guy slapping his wife around in public I don't just stand by and say.... "Well that is his wife, she will just have to learn to deal with it"

 

No, that ***** is wrong and needs to be addressed, the same way these developers keep slapping us in the face. I refuse to be slapped over and over and just sit there with a smile on my face.

 

If I didn't pay a monthly fee I would sit in the back and keep my mouth shut, but the fact I pay a monthly fee for these developers to go and take something that WAS FINE, and then break it based on THEIR half baked belief that the class needed a massive Nerf is BS.,

[RStoney]

Aluo;

 

Read a comment in the PvP section - perhaps one we should keep in mind here.

 

You kinda blow off at the dev's in the game, and put all the blame at their feet. Maybe we should adjust fire a bit, and put that blame in a place a bit more deserving. BW management. You know, the ones who tell the devs what to do.

 

Just a random thought...

[RuQu]

Aluo;

 

Read a comment in the PvP section - perhaps one we should keep in mind here.

 

You kinda blow off at the dev's in the game, and put all the blame at their feet. Maybe we should adjust fire a bit, and put that blame in a place a bit more deserving. BW management. You know, the ones who tell the devs what to do.

 

Just a random thought...

 

I think that is what most people mean when they say Devs. I don't think most people mean the coders down in the trenches. They mean "those who oversee the Development of the game."

 

Now, it's also possible that GZ, the Lead Combat Developer, has no actual authority to oversee development and just has a fancy title, but we can hardly be blamed for misunderstanding his role in that case.

[ShadowAxx]

I think that is what most people mean when they say Devs. I don't think most people mean the coders down in the trenches. They mean "those who oversee the Development of the game."

 

Now, it's also possible that GZ, the Lead Combat Developer, has no actual authority to oversee development and just has a fancy title, but we can hardly be blamed for misunderstanding his role in that case.

 

 

Hey RuQu, how many days left on your account. I'm down to 50 days and wonder if anything good could possibly happen before my time runs out.

[RuQu]

Hey RuQu, how many days left on your account. I'm down to 50 days and wonder if anything good could possibly happen before my time runs out.

 

Let's look at the track record:

• 1.2 was originally teased as early March. It came out mid-April.
  
• It was supposed to contain rated WZ's. It didn't.
  
• It was supposed to provide a UI with so many options we wouldn't need add-ons. It utterly failed to address any healer UI needs.
  
• It was supposed to improve class balance. It destroyed it.
  
• While it was never explicitly promised, the long thread by bobudo made it clear that we needed 1.2 to make healing more interesting. Instead, it gutted healer gameplay.
  
• It was supposed to have nerf-mitigating "under the hood" changes. None were ever found
  
• Early reports suggested the possibility of dual-spec in 1.2. That has now been pushed back until after 1.3.
  
• Explosive Conflict was supposed to fix the super-easy raiding. It was cleared within hours of release (although, to be fair, by guilds who had played it on PTS)
  
• Legacy was supposed to be a redefining feature. In fact, it's just a server-wide achievement system with very limited achievements and a bare-bones RP skeleton pasted on. (This was a feature I thought sounded awesome whenever I learned more about it, and found extremely underwhelming once I saw it Live)
  

 

I'm not following things much anymore. I'm not sure what they've promised for 1.3, but rated WZs were on the 1.2 PTS and didn't make it Live while the healer changes we all warned about did. It's hard to have too much faith that 1.3 will come out in a timely manner, that it will fix any of our problems which they have yet to acknowledge, or that it will even contain any of the key features they advertise.

 

In a lot of ways I feel bad for many of the Developers. I feel like, but can't prove, they are playing catch-up and trying to make basic features that should have been present at launch sound exciting and new. They are trying to shoehorn in basic functionalities while also putting out the expected levels of new content.

 

Most any game with such a WoW-like talent system released in 2012 should launch with a dual-spec. Every class either can perform multiple roles, or the same role in distinctly different ways. If your talents look like a WoW-reskin, they need to have all the functionality people are used to from WoW.

 

Server transfer technology should have been established before launch. There is no excuse for being unable to port chars to the PTS, or not having pre-mades on the PTS. With servers dying, server communities are dropping below critical mass and people can't find the groups they need to experience the game. Too many servers at launch + no server transfer = disaster. I've moved on to TERA and they had free server transfers starting during their early access pre-launch period, in case you rolled on a different server than friends during the Open Beta. Free. The whole point was to let you play with who you want to play with, while also balancing queue times and server loads. Crazy.

 

There is no excuse for this UI. Even if you want to deny people add-ons, which is a valid decision, you can't justify this UI. Again, I'm going to go to TERA, and they don't allow addons either. Do you know what happens when you get a DoT? Your health bar goes purple so everyone knows you need a cleanse. When I have a heal incoming, I see an unobtrusive message on my screen that says "JoeBobsHealer has locked an ability onto you." The terminology is specific to that type of heal (lock-on vs Sage-circle style vs mechanics SWTOR doesn't have), but it says "heh, don't bother with a potion just yet." I know people in Beta complained about the UI. They absolutely needed to sit down with their testers of all the classes and asked "What info do you need to be able to play your class well? What info is irrelevant to you?" If they had just asked those two questions, we would have a visual distinction between my HoT and yours, resizable buffs/debuffs, the ability to turn off portraits (seriously?), buff/debuff filters, etc. All of these are obvious to any healer, yet they were missed not only in the Launch UI, but also in the UI Revamp from 1.2?!

 

I could go on. I'm not sure my exact days left, I think it expires August 21 or so. The scale of changes they need seems to be far greater than their track record suggests they can achieve. Worse, I have little faith that they are aware of what they need to do, and they seem steadfast in their refusal to ask the community.

 

You have 50 days left. That's enough time to level an alt or two. Or take a look at the opportunity costs, write off the cash as already gone, and use your time elsewhere.

[oredith]

You have 50 days left. That's enough time to level an alt or two. Or take a look at the opportunity costs, write off the cash as already gone, and use your time elsewhere.

basically where i'm at. The opportunity cost is high, especially here in california, where the summer's a really nice time to be spending your free time at the beach (i'm 2 miles away), instead of at home.

 

the counter to that, however, is that i'm the raid leader in my guild, and we still enjoy playing with each other. In fact, since 1.2, our roster has continued to grow. I think somehow, people are finding out that we're not quite quitting - yet. I wonder if we're like one of the few super casual guilds on harbinger that actually makes progress.. >_<

 

for now, i plan to play casually, log on for raids, or when i'm bored with nothing else to do, but nothing BW has done, nor promised, has persuaded me to inch toward resubbing.

 

if anything, BW has turned me back toward blizzard, which i didn't think i'd do. but when compared to BW, you really get to see what experience can bring to the table.

 

i guess that's why experience means more than the number of degrees on your resume too.

[oredith]

AAAANNNDDD..

 

another week of Q&A, another week without any response to the healer outcry.

[ShadowAxx]

AAAANNNDDD..

 

another week of Q&A, another week without any response to the healer outcry.

 

Bt the time they finally get around to addressing the healers debacle, only one left will be Brave Sir Robin, having eaten all of his minstrels. (nothing like a Python reference to help relieve some of the gloom)

[lovefool]

Seeing that a worse geared dps sage has stronger heals than me with a higher resource pool and no restrictions such as cd on the quick heal (stupid idea to have a quick heal restricted by cd ) i decided to stop healing on my trooper as it is no longer fun for me, and I love healing and was a healer in all mmos.

[Slipt]

Slightly before 1.2 hit the live game, there was a dev post regarding the sweeping 'changes' to merc healers, and quite possibly referencing any other healer nerfs in the process. I couldn't be bothered looking it up and linking it, but I'm sure some of you recall it.

 

Though I paraphrase... it basically stated that the changes were completely intentional, and that the feeling was that some classes were healing "above the curve" to such an extreme that they needed to be brought back down.

 

Speaking for mercs, that involved a nerf across-the-board, and an extra target on kolto missile.

 

I know people like a constant dialogue with the devs, but it's entirely possible that they believe they have already addressed our concerns in this blanket response by informing us to harden up.

[Ashyra]

Slightly before 1.2 hit the live game, there was a dev post regarding the sweeping 'changes' to merc healers, and quite possibly referencing any other healer nerfs in the process. I couldn't be bothered looking it up and linking it, but I'm sure some of you recall it.

 

Though I paraphrase... it basically stated that the changes were completely intentional, and that the feeling was that some classes were healing "above the curve" to such an extreme that they needed to be brought back down.

 

Speaking for mercs, that involved a nerf across-the-board, and an extra target on kolto missile.

 

I know people like a constant dialogue with the devs, but it's entirely possible that they believe they have already addressed our concerns in this blanket response by informing us to harden up.

 

Here it is! Community Q&A: March 23rd 2012

 

The hard but simple truth is that Sorcerers and Sages had better Force management than we intended (e.g. a well-played Sage was almost incapable of running out of Force) and Mercenaries and Commandos were significantly over target in their healing performance.

 

After considerable testing, we're more confident than ever that all healing roles are both closer to target performance and closer to one another than ever before, leading to a much tighter balance on end game content. The community will be able to confirm this using the new combat logging feature in Game Update 1.2.

 

So far, the combat logs collected by various community members have not confirmed this. Instead, they disprove the claim, as has also been pointed out by numerous community members, such as RuQu.

[Easpeak]

I really do want to see BW's testing team.