Team Bioware - The Definitive Issues That You're Not Addressing or Responding To

[Costello]

Excellent Post.

 

The Story is horribly flat. Thats not that it wasn't a good story but as you say its 20 disconnected stories that are very losely tied together with people from the early story long forgotten and this is the class story. It gets even worse when we talk of the planet and bonus series, as soon as I am done with them the very best I can hope for is an e-mail with an item in it. It really isn't what BW have been offering with their games or what was promised by them before launch.

 

Companions are little more than pets, very rarely having anything to offer and never anything meaningful. Coming from a SW backround one companion you spend most of chapter 1 trying to recruit for her unique ability, an ability she uses once in the rest of the story. This power that ment I had to hunt her across the galaxy is then never used by a sith lord, who is warned of a traitor in his midst doesn't get her to use it? Speaking of the traitor even with 10k affection helping him in every way he betrays you the same as if you had -10k and beat him down at every chance.

 

Gear Customisation is also appalling, even with more orange gear the choice is very small, there is a very limited colour pallet and the match colours often matches very badly with the option to turn you into a clown looking person.

 

The number of species is also far too few and those available are all too similar. I remember pre pre launch talk of more species than in any other MMO. No true and infact we have mostly got various coloured humans for the worst of all possible reasons because the story wouldn't make as much sence. There are tons of plot holes least of all that my character will never say his name despite having to dance round it or refere to himself as someones apprentice or by a title.

[DarthRage]

I for one would like to see something done about the server populations. I think this game has great potential but is nearly impossible to put a group together to run anything unless you happened to be in a guild. I understand the need for guilds, but personally think its a shame that you can't do anything End Game unless you want to join guild. I hit 50 awhile back and have only manage to run one or two Flashpoints and OPs. The lack of a queue systems and severe lack in server population does not help.

 

I would also like to see more going on in a General or a Global chat. As of right now the only chatting going on is between guild members in a guild. I also think that is a shame and shows that there is not much of a community in the game. I have been told that is why there are guilds, but a guild does not make a community.

 

I would love to be able to do things in this game, especially end game, without being forced into being in a guild and without having to deal with people being mean when I try to start a conversation.

 

I quit once before and am contemplating quitting again because I find myself coming back to the same conclusions every time I log in. Until some of these things are addressed I don't see the point in continuing my level 50 character. Nobody will run anything unless it is with their guilds, thus making my level 50 useless.

[Verdan]

DR, I agree with all of those points, and think that they're directly related to the issues in the OP.

 

I still haven't logged in since writing the OP, still have no desire to. I think about what it is I'd be doing when logged in, and can't come up with a good answer. I did log in one weekend afternoon, to give a try to warzones. I logged into a queue, and it never activated - I think my server is all but dead. After a while, I logged out again.

 

I also note that with respect to the forums landfills, this thread was immediately buried deeply in the forum again, as all player input is.

 

*crickets* from Bioware on these issues. I was eagerly awaiting and tested this game, and now assume that subs are in steady decline.

Edited April 28, 2012 by Verdan

[Staaldunken]

I support this/bump

[llesna]

Beautifully written there.

 

This has my full support!

Edited May 3, 2012 by llesna

[Verdan]

I appreciate all the support for these issues. Thanks.

 

and meanwhile... *crickets*

[KyaniteD]

Very good post and I support most of it, if not all.

 

 

Some things we will have to learn to deal with, though. Like the Sith corruption. Some players will want their darkside choices to reflect in their appearance (It's a bit like Cdr. Shepard's renegade scars.) Even if we're not force-sensitive, the force is still present in everything and everyone, and making certain choices may eventually show on one's face and body...

[Evil_Kabbage]

Good read and agree with many of you on things I'd like to see fixed/enhanced/changed. I don't agree that they aren't listening. On the contrary, i think they're doing a really nice job. All this clamoring over "need dev response", though, is astounding based on my experience as a developer & tech project lead myself.

 

The decisions and prioritization of what goes into a product and subsequent releases is not in my hands. The people making those decisions often dont have a technical background. That is decided by executives and marketing types, who you hope have the pulse on what needs to be done. I get requirements and i do my best to meet them. Whether or not i agree is not up to me. My job is to do it. QA is supposed to be there to make sure i did right. At no time do i actually talk to the customer. I'd probably get fired if i did.

 

People should appreciate the fact they do have such an influence on how this game is evolving. I read the patch notes and think to myself that these guys are really trying. I know i take great pride in a job well done, and no one is harsher than me when i make a mistake. I get the same sense from these developers.

 

Here's a pat on the back from a fellow developer. Keep up the good work. For what it's worth, here's one person that enjoys your work and looking forward to more.

[JarenWelen]

Excellent post, agree with everything there.

 

Thanks for the great read, sir.

 

-J

[Evil_Kabbage]

The one thing I know that I didn't care for in this post is the guild section. I agree that a good guild is hard to find in any mmo, but many do exist. In a prior mmo, I was an officer and raid leader back in the days of 40 man raiding. If you think coordinating and motivating 4, 8, and 16 person groups can be a headache, imagine 40. We also put together pvp events, world boss attempts, guild contests (catch the biggest fish in our weekly fixing derby, for example).

 

Now I could only do so much. It was up to our members to show and participate. I threw together a guild website to

have a calendar and our our own forums. We wanted to give every opportunity for people to enjoy the mmo experience. What I just finally had to come to terms with is that you just can't make everyone happy no matter how you tried. People hardly used the forums. People didn't participate. People b###### and moaned about each other.

 

Guild leadership is not as glorious and easy as people think it is. It literally was a second job. It takes a lot of effort, patience, and persistence. It also takes everyone in the guild to help make it a success.

 

The best guilds I have been in are the smaller ones. They also had their own websites. The members were active on there. They were active within the guild. Whenever I look for a guild, I check out their forums and see what they talk about and what types of personalities are part of that guild. Just like dating, the chances the relationship will work out will depend on sharing the same interests and compatible personalities. No tool could be developed that can make those decisions for me.

[Tautha]

Clearly a labour of love.

Well thought out and poignant.

This deserves serious consideration.

[Nyla]

Good read and agree with many of you on things I'd like to see fixed/enhanced/changed. I don't agree that they aren't listening. On the contrary, i think they're doing a really nice job. All this clamoring over "need dev response", though, is astounding based on my experience as a developer & tech project lead myself.

 

The decisions and prioritization of what goes into a product and subsequent releases is not in my hands. The people making those decisions often dont have a technical background. That is decided by executives and marketing types, who you hope have the pulse on what needs to be done. I get requirements and i do my best to meet them. Whether or not i agree is not up to me. My job is to do it. QA is supposed to be there to make sure i did right. At no time do i actually talk to the customer. I'd probably get fired if i did.

 

People should appreciate the fact they do have such an influence on how this game is evolving. I read the patch notes and think to myself that these guys are really trying. I know i take great pride in a job well done, and no one is harsher than me when i make a mistake. I get the same sense from these developers.

 

Here's a pat on the back from a fellow developer. Keep up the good work. For what it's worth, here's one person that enjoys your work and looking forward to more.

 

I still don't know why companies like Bioware before launch when they make blogs about different kind of jobs involved in game development never starts with the beginning, ie explaining to people the roles of the different people, the layers in the decision making process...

 

The thing is, as long as customers don't have a good idea how such complex products as games and softwares in general are made, there always be people complaining about the wrong thing to the wrong person.

 

I agree with many points the OP made and I have also my own list of problems and of badly designed things but well, I know how it goes.

Big companies (Bioware + EA + Lucas Arts) with many big teams with strong leads personnalities and the will to please a lot of different kind of people (shareholders + all the different kinds of gamers) is quite the nightmare.

[Verdan]

The one thing I know that I didn't care for in this post is the guild section. I agree that a good guild is hard to find in any mmo, but many do exist.

 

Ah, but in all the servers, all the claims, and all the shingles... how to find them? Hence the points in the OP.

 

No tool could be developed that can make those decisions for me.

 

The material in the OP was not about making decisions for (you) the 1% who are (should be) advocates for their community members. It's about providing leaders with tools to help them clarify the defining foundations for their community of fellow players, AND for providing tools for the 99% of players to give feedback when leaders don't live up to their better defined foundations; foundations that they articulated (or too often impose) for fellow players within their guild community.

 

The tools bring A) clarity of charter, B) accountability through published feedback/ratings on the charter elements, and C) the ability for the 99% to search for guilds based upon those tenets, as better clarified and locked in by the 1%.

 

An example would be a guild that puts forth that... "communication", "democratic process and decision-making", and "promotes members' input" are all cornerstones of their charter, but got ratings consistently of 3 out of 10 on these tenets, where 10 is strongest...

 

...That's great data for benefit of the leaders to open a dialogue and improve, but equally great data for prospective members and current members alike, on many levels.

Edited May 2, 2012 by Verdan

[Verdan]

...

I agree with many points the OP made and I have also my own list of problems and of badly designed things but well, I know how it goes.

 

Big companies (Bioware + EA + Lucas Arts) with many big teams with strong leads personnalities and the will to please a lot of different kind of people (shareholders + all the different kinds of gamers) is quite the nightmare.

 

That's one of the reasons I've long said that players will not get a truly enjoyable MMO experience until we get a non-profit MMO developer coupled with competencies in both Project Management and leadership. Non-profit ensures that developers aren't serving competing priorities and objectives, and failed (project) leadership doesn't undermine the whole venture; both were the failings with SWG.

 

A perfect example of the distinction between for profit and non profit is banks vs. credit unions. The latter doesn't split their focus or value between shareholders and customers, it's all on the customers, and they don't pay taxes, so the value is fully added to the customers...

 

Non-profit and a Board of Directors acting as advocates for customers who elected them, would address sacred cows and align player expectations and feedback - in this case the foundational issues represented in this thread.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Verdan

[Verdan]

PS. I don't mean to offend. I've been playing again, and to point #1 of the OP, the 4th Pillar ~ Story:

 

I'm hitting Space Bar 100% of the time. The novelty of "blah blah blah do this" and kill mobs for a bonus is long since worn off. Without depth and continuity, both supported by an ensemble cast, the whole innovation value of TOR is nothing more than a short-lived novelty, and it falls back to other MMO fundamentals and value points, such as laid out in the OP.

[Verdan]

Good read and agree with many of you on things I'd like to see fixed/enhanced/changed. I don't agree that they aren't listening. On the contrary, i think they're doing a really nice job. All this clamoring over "need dev response", though, is astounding based on my experience as a developer & tech project lead myself.

 

The decisions and prioritization of what goes into ...

 

Yes, of course, and much of TOR is great. For example, the foundations of crafting, class design, objective-based PvP (something SWG sorely lacked), and combat experiences to be specific. However, the points of the OP are also foundational as many have pretty much given consensus (unusually so for a forums thread) and frankly are not easily remedied. So a lack of comment by devs can come sooner than actual remedies can - to let players know the points have landed. Also, contrary to your points, many of the gaps are clearly not a matter of prioritization, but one of sacred cows. The latter is synonymous with "ivory tower" lack of feedback loops and proactive design that integrate players' preferences when sacred cows become insurmountable obstacles to successful game experiences. This was part and parcel to the legacy of some Bioware stakeholders hailing from SWG NGE, unfortunately.

Edited May 11, 2012 by Verdan

[brentonj]

This is an excellent post.

 

Unfortunately the developers will completely ignore it and instead get excited about things like "rocket boots".

[Hiskias]

Oh goodness not faster leveling! Instead, I would love to see more parallel worlds for each level range. Of course, being a low populated game as it is, that would only exacerbate the problem that there's never anyone else around. Maybe faster leveling for alts with xp+ gear as in WoW integrated into legacy system. But for my first character, those levels flew by and before I knew it I was 50 with nothing much other to do but to start leveling an alt. Getting to max level didn't really have a feeling of achievement to it. Not everyone plays a game just to reach the end! I for one enjoy the journey more than anything.

 

The other points and suggestions you make I don't much care about this way or that. Those aren't really my personal priorities, but it's a good thing that people take time to write down their concerns in such structured and legible format. I ought to do that one day as well Here's hoping that Bioware reads these forums.

[Mirdthestrill]

While this was an eloquent and well-thought-out post, I feel you're misunderstanding many of the game's systems, specifically legacy names. It's not so much a surname as an identifying mark for your character so that everyone knows who you and your alternate characters are. As such, you don't want the same identifying mark on two accounts. A lot of your small suggestions, like ship names and the capital letters bug fix, would be nice, but I don't think you're looking at a lot of these things from the right angle. I can go further into depth if you'd like me to.

[TheSeventhJedi]

Holy great wall of text Batman!

 

Seriously though, not much to say except please go work for BioWare. What you just said. All of it.

[Verdan]

While this was an eloquent and well-thought-out post, I feel you're misunderstanding many of the game's systems, specifically legacy names. It's not so much a surname as an identifying mark for your character so that everyone knows who you and your alternate characters are. As such, you don't want the same identifying mark on two accounts. A lot of your small suggestions, like ship names and the capital letters bug fix, would be nice, but I don't think you're looking at a lot of these things from the right angle. I can go further into depth if you'd like me to.

 

Misunderstanding, right angle? Are you kidding me?

 

They are fundamentals of MMO, which have some synergy with RP and RP's natural affinity with the MMO gaming model.

 

The point is, that you wanting to tell me "the right angle" to look at it, is to force your sacred cows from your perspective on others. That's no better than Bioware's behavior in doing exactly the same thing, in that in many of these cases we're absolutely dealing with the sacred cows of a few individuals (or less) being Force fed on players regardless of their preferences and expectations of MMO fundamentals. This isn't a KOTOR RPG. This is an MMO.

 

Setting aside the obvious and unequivicable facts of some points of the OP, such as the huge gap or missed opportunity to add depth and richness (or any) to music, or the lack of depth of an ensemble cast that brings a story to life... Let's just stick with the naming conventions. What we do have is someone's sacred cow, rather than OPTIONS represented by a flexible system that suits various players' styles, needs, and preferences. They took a narrow approach, suiting one perspective aligned to (likely) one individual acting as a design autocrat, rather than considering a broader understanding of diverse community needs and need for flexibility.

Edited May 24, 2012 by Verdan

[milkywaykid]

Please BioWare listen to this!

[Frakkensteinse]

Yes to all OPs suggestione except leveling speed. Read this developers!

[Verdan]

Edited for updates - changes in purple.

[JediElf]

We could all do with less dialogue with NPC strangers in an endless string of "do this and kill 15-50 bonus mobs". Just have more generic quests given from mission terminals, and have more dialogue development resources applied to crew and crew progression, crew quests to bring some real story depth to the game.

 

I have to strongly disagree, with this.

 

If the NPC quests were reduced to just a terminal and some text, I have to say that I wouldn't bother with any of them....I'd just go to my next voiced quest or mission ,as just accessing a terminal, would break the immersion of the games planetary side quests.

 

Imagine if the entire Revan side quest on Kaas was just a terminal, and text, it would be kinda boring-not wait-it would be really boring, and not worth doing.

 

I agree that we need more Companion voices, and interactions with them, I agree with that, but not at the expense of planetary quest immersion.

 

Why can't we just have both?

 

It would be better, than being forced to choose.

Edited May 29, 2012 by JediElf