Who Swtor was made for.

[DarthDetonate]

its not an assumption. A main character and a bunch of alts to level 50 by this point in time is many many hours of game play. Reaching a very high legacy level? Then yes, sleep is good. In the OP, it reads that it has much time invested in the game. If I am in error, you are welcome to prove me wrong. You may submit a screenshot with total hours of game time as proof. Seriously. There is no MMORPG out there that can keep up to the rate in which some of you consume content. Just not possible. I seriously don't believe that nightmare mode is easy peasy for your group. I do believe you are asking for a 40 man operation that drops 2 pieces of gear so it is a status symbol and extremely rare to be seen among other players. Nothing wrong with the difficulty level there is now. It doesn't need to be ramped up. That isn't the problem. Investing too much time is however.

 

It is not my intent to constantly disagree with an anonymous person on the internet. I know nothing about you other that why you have posted. I still think (based on this post and your others) me wanting 40 man raids, that the content isn't easy for me and my guild and that i want status symbols is reaching a bit. One can interpret my post as they will, I can only reinforce MY meaning.

[Agemnon]

This is not a game aimed at the hardcore. Many HC gamers (like myself) are guilty of trying to make this game what it simply isn't.

 

As the Bioware Rep on the Pax East Panel said, to Paraphrase "your focused demographic is usually dictated by how much the game cost to make. In the future when these game can be made faster and for less money, I'm sure we'll see a lot of games aimed a niche audiences like the hardcore but for now, you don't spend 300 million on a game for 70k-100k subscriptions."

 

When I quit WoW years ago, I said i would wait for Swtor, as it seemed to have what i wanted from a game and after 7 years, it wasn't set in Azeroth.

 

 

What i hadn't (but should have) anticipated was the targeted audience and how wide the net Swtor was casting.

 

After hitting 50, raiding and rolling numerous alts to 50 It started to sink in that the overall difficulty level of this game is not what i expected. Then again, what I expected was based on what I had hoped for rather than what was most logical for the company and the subsequent game.

 

 

Basically we the minority, the hardcore few will never change the aims of this game and would be silly to even try to. Accept What the game is, then evaluate if it is for you. Anything more is just trying to change something that was obviously not meant for your play style.

 

Tera is coming out soon. It looks like a great game (though it has its controversies), and most of the "complaints" aren't for the right reasons (such as either the Elin censorship, which I could understand but not necessarily agree with). Although the controls look awkward since you need your mouse to target, though there should be a way to mouse turn and not have to rely on the arrow keys.

[cipher_nemo]

I work full time, like most people in developed countries. I was in the first day of early access. I took a month vacation from work just to play since it encompassed Christmas as well. During the weekdays I play probably 4+ hours a night, and on weekends it's 6-8 hours a day. The kicker...

 

To this day I have only one end-game level 50, with three lowbie alts. I didn't skip conversations (except for dailies and repeatables that I spacebar-and-#1 through). I've done...

 

I did some crafting, maxed stats, but still don't have all recipes unlocked.

Some companions at max affection and high-end gear, but not all.

I've unlocked every single hex of map everywhere.

I've done ALL PvE quests, including hard-to-find side ones, but still have 3 Heroic 4s left.

I did a ton of PvP, but am still not Battlemaster.

I still don't have top gear (mixture of Rakata, Columi, and Champion)

I've done plenty of space battles.

I did every flashpoint, some on hard mode.

I've run in both ops, but only normal mode.

I do PvE dailies all the time.

I have all datacrons including +10 to all.

I still have codex to unlock.

I grind a lot for credits after 1.1.5.

Most speeders, white crystals for me, companions, and alts.

 

There's still more than I can complete. My /played for my main is 25+ days. And there's still more to do.

 

So just using me as an example, all of those complaining that they don't have anything lest to do are either lying, power-leveled to skip cut-scenes, or spent every waking moment in-game since early access. Every single one of those reasons is purely their fault. It's not the developer's fault. There's a ton of content, more than ANY other theme-park style MMO I've played except may be LOTRO and WoW. So please, "hardcore" people (not targeted at anyone specific) who play all the freaking time and have burned through all content because they rush: go b*tch elsewhere. You don't have my sympathy at all.

Edited April 9, 2012 by cipher_nemo

[VegaPhone]

I work full time, like most people in developed countries. I was in the first day of early access. I took a month vacation from work just to play since it encompassed Christmas as well. During the weekdays I play probably 4+ hours a night, and on weekends it's 6-8 hours a day. The kicker...

 

To this day I have only one end-game level 50, with three lowbie alts. I didn't skip conversations (except for dailies and repeatables that I spacebar-and-#1 through). I've done...

 

I did some crafting, maxed stats, but still don't have all recipes unlocked.

Some companions at max affection and high-end gear, but not all.

I've unlocked every single hex of map everywhere.

I've done ALL PvE quests, including hard-to-find side ones, but still have 3 Heroic 4s left.

I did a ton of PvP, but am still not Battlemaster.

I've done plenty of space battles.

I did every flashpoint, some on hard mode.

I've run in both ops, but only normal mode.

I do PvE dailies all the time.

I have all datacrons including +10 to all.

I still have codex to unlock.

I grind a lot for credits after 1.1.5.

 

There's still more than I can complete. My /played for my main is 25+ days. And there's still more to do.

 

So just using me as an example, all of those complaining that they don't have anything lest to do are either lying, power-leveled to skip cut-scenes, or spent every waking moment in-game since early access. Every single one of those reasons is purely their fault. It's not the developer's fault. There's a ton of content, more than ANY other theme-park style MMO I've played except may be LOTRO and WoW. So please, "hardcore" people (not targeted at anyone specific) who play all the freaking time and have burned through all content because they rush: go b*tch elsewhere. You don't have my sympathy at all.

 

Except you would be considered a hardcore player and not a casual player.

 

Also when people say there is no content, its ambigoius.

 

They are really saying that they are bored of the game. That is subjective and you cant force someone to say they should not feel bored.

 

The real question, and the real answer you want from them... is what exactly were they wanting to do that would make the game better. Hopefully, the answer, is something realistic and expected for MMOs that is a fair answer to consider.

[Tahana]

Absolutely nothing sir. Again, this post was aimed am my more vocal HC brethren wanting something I don't believe was intended (at least for now) as evidenced By the SWTOR Panel discussion.

 

Well I wish you the very best and hope that you can find a game that can sustain you. I for one am a Star Wars fan and the game suits me for now. I can't say if it will in a year, that will depend on if they can keep pumping out content. So far that has been fairly slow and they will need to learn they'll need to increase that output if they want people to stay.

[Master-Nala]

The original poster's observations are right on the mark and I congratulate him for this post.

[notebene]

Darth (and Dawn's reply, which Darth commented on it), very nice posts. I'm not in your 'camp' with respect to play style and what I expect out of an MMO (though played many of the old ones, and didn't like how difficult they were then, the new breed of game is more my pace).

 

Having said that, what is even more unfortunate about the quote (regarding costs and target audiences), is I think when the games get more cost effective to build again such that niche markets are profitable again (100-200k subs for 2-3 years makes the game worth it to build), that somehow we (people like me, who play a lot, but prefer content which isn't quite as difficult) will be the losers.

 

It's you folks who write the best walk-throughs, the best guides, the best builds, the best fan databases. It's many of you who, when they feel nice, give a little 'back' to the community and will gladly do a PUG run every so often and help people learn how to do some of the harder content (I recall back in the day big guilds hosting 20 man raids in LotRO where they'd take quite a few 'general public' folks along so they'd get to experience it).

 

You guys and gals are all 'part' of the community, and I hope the answer isn't that we eventually have to fragment that to get what everyone is looking for.

 

But at any rate, I just wanted to comment on how much I enjoyed seeing a good post that was a nice 20k ft level view of the state of the genre, from a demographic perspective.

[cipher_nemo]

Except you would be considered a hardcore player and not a casual player.

 

Also when people say there is no content, its ambigoius.

 

They are really saying that they are bored of the game. That is subjective and you cant force someone to say they should not feel bored.

 

The real question, and the real answer you want from them... is what exactly were they wanting to do that would make the game better. Hopefully, the answer, is something realistic and expected for MMOs that is a fair answer to consider.

 

Exactly. There is a ton to do in TOR, exponentially so if you roll alts. But I think you hit the nail on the head: they're bored.

 

In terms of PvP, the number of warzones is far too low, and one more isn't going to make it that much less boring. It will still get boring and feel like a grind over time. I loved Illum because the players made their own content by doing battle in varying numbers with varying tactics and styles. But who knows if that will survive?

 

In terms of PvE, TOR will either need to add sand-box style content (which probably won't happen in this sort of MMO) or keep adding planets and level caps at a rate of 1 expansion a year and an update 2 times a year. I think they're almost on track for that, but 1.2 is stuff that should have been there at launch, so they're covering their fundamentals with this big update instead of a ton of content.

 

In light of that I'm still very happy with TOR. In comparison, I gave WoW 4 months of total subscription time back before and after Burning Crusade before I ditched it. I gave 2 years to Ultima Online before it became rinse and repeat, and that was much more sandbox-like with player housing. I gave 2 years to LOTRO, and it's still my fallback MMO. I gave 4 months to STO, which had no end-game other than zerg-fest STFs. I gave less time than I should have to AoC, about 3 months. And I gave 6 months to Dark Age of Camelot. So I can get bored with games, but with TOR that hasn't happened yet and I plan to play my alts almost exclusively to become second mains over 2012. I'm still very happy with TOR. The new UI and Legacy system in 1.2 are my personal favorites so far.

Edited April 9, 2012 by cipher_nemo

[GalacticKegger]

I'm speaking about hardcore players as those who complete the content as fast as they can, those often criticized for not enjoying the game and complaining afterward. The simple fact is that theirs' is a valid play style. It just may not be compatible with sustaining a long-term subscription to an MMORPG title without interruption.

IMHO that's more of an extreme player as opposed to a hardcore player. I believe hardcores play competitively and devote a large amount of time to the intricacies of a hobby they enjoy. By large I mean inordinate when compared to those with a casual approach. Hardcores and casuals can get along fine if the casual prepares and performs well enough. Whereas extremists seem almost programmed to blindly rocket through things because they can, and schedule life around these endeavors. They eventually rebel when there's no one there to congratulate them once they've reached the end, not wanting to understand that being an unguided missile is their choice.

 

I think there is a substantial place in this game for hardcores, and more attention is being devoted to advanced gameplay. Extremists on the other hand will continue doing the vagabond thing, bouncing around different games, rarely finding one that is catered to them. If they do find one it likely won't be financially viable for very long because the niche is so small. Then they're back on the road again looking for ...

 

Just one person's perspective.

Edited April 9, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[Dayln]

I think there is a substantial place in this game for hardcores, and more attention is being devoted to advanced gameplay. Extremists on the other hand will continue doing the vagabond thing, bouncing around different games, never finding one that is catered to them. If they do find one it likely won't be financially viable for very long because the niche is so small. Then they're back on the road again looking for ...

 

Just one person's perspective.

 

That is why they should, and do, cater to the bread and butter ( and income ) of any major MMO, the casual player.

[maxetius]

That is why they should, and do, cater to the bread and butter ( and income ) of any major MMO, the casual player.

 

Shadowbane proved that hardcore PVP players cannot sustain a game, so they're out.

Edited April 9, 2012 by maxetius

[DawnAskham]

Darth (and Dawn's reply, which Darth commented on it), very nice posts. I'm not in your 'camp' with respect to play style and what I expect out of an MMO (though played many of the old ones, and didn't like how difficult they were then, the new breed of game is more my pace).

 

Having said that, what is even more unfortunate about the quote (regarding costs and target audiences), is I think when the games get more cost effective to build again such that niche markets are profitable again (100-200k subs for 2-3 years makes the game worth it to build), that somehow we (people like me, who play a lot, but prefer content which isn't quite as difficult) will be the losers.

 

It's you folks who write the best walk-throughs, the best guides, the best builds, the best fan databases. It's many of you who, when they feel nice, give a little 'back' to the community and will gladly do a PUG run every so often and help people learn how to do some of the harder content (I recall back in the day big guilds hosting 20 man raids in LotRO where they'd take quite a few 'general public' folks along so they'd get to experience it).

 

You guys and gals are all 'part' of the community, and I hope the answer isn't that we eventually have to fragment that to get what everyone is looking for.

 

But at any rate, I just wanted to comment on how much I enjoyed seeing a good post that was a nice 20k ft level view of the state of the genre, from a demographic perspective.

 

I think more fragmentation is inevitable, and not necessarily a bad thing.

 

The key to future success in my opinion will be providing content delivery against multiple smaller niches while leveraging social tools to stich together the various niches and segments into broader communities.

 

I envision a day when both of us can play content that is designed to excite and challenge us while meeting our unique wants and desires (which may be substantially different from one another), yet still be able to connect, share and socialize across our respective gaming environments.

 

I certainly don't want to lose the broader community and agree that a really good game has players of all types that interact and bring something that makes the overall experience better for all.

 

But who's to say that can't be something like multiple SW based 'games' that deliver content tailored to various groups that are all tied together through common social hubs?

[Jederix]

I would suggest that you start having a look around, there are plenty. Spreading misinformation is a dangerous thing.

 

Which ones? Besides EVE Online, that is. I am genuinely curious.

[mutharex]

Which ones? Besides EVE Online, that is. I am genuinely curious.

 

There are a few VERY niche games, MO and DF come to mind, without looking into the asia market

 

As I said, VERY niche but VERY vocal

[Dayln]

There are a few VERY niche games, MO and DF come to mind, without looking into the asia market

 

As I said, VERY niche but VERY vocal

 

Correct, and Bioware is not looking to make SWTOR a niche market game

[CrunkShizzle]

Shadowbane proved that hardcore PVP players cannot sustain a game, so they're out.

 

i guess it depends on how the company handles there pvp

 

the reason why WoW's pvp failed so hard is because blizzard didnt care about it as much as they did the pve.the reason why the pvp fails in this game is probably the same concept only replace pve with great storylines

 

and Lineage 2 id say would be the example of how hardcore pvpers can sustain a game.yeah,its free to play now.yeah GoD update pretty much killed the game,but still look at how long it lasted as a pay to play mmorpg.and id say it was a hardcore pvp mmo,since thats pretty much what you did at level cap.you eather farmed or you pvp'd

Edited April 9, 2012 by CrunkShizzle

[Jett-Rinn]

This game is made for me. Huge Star Wars fan, very casual. I've been playing since day 1 of early access, have yet to hit 50 and having a great time. Thank you Bioware, I love this game.

 

Totally agree and while I think hardcores should have MMO's that they can enjoy it's more than petty to purchase a game that is known to be targeted for Casual MMO players, RPG and Star Wars fans and to rage incessantly on the forums.

 

I am not referring to the OP; his is a reasonable and respectful voice and I have nothing but sympathy to that player that just wants a game that fits his play style , but as this article points out that tiny vocal demographic pretty much ruins it for the folks that honestly just wants a challenge.

Edited April 9, 2012 by Jett-Rinn

[Celebrus]

Basically we the minority, the hardcore few will never change the aims of this game and would be silly to even try to. Accept What the game is, then evaluate if it is for you. Anything more is just trying to change something that was obviously not meant for your play style.

 

Taking what he said, this can basically be applied to any game, genre, etc.

 

Heres a news flash.

 

When MMO games are cheap enough that you can spend years developing for 70-100k subs, they wont, because it will still be more profitable to spend that same number of years developing for a more casual, but more broad, 500k-1,000,000 subs.

 

You know what they call games that are developed and geared toward niche audiences? Indie games. "Arcade" games. Free to play games.

 

That is never changing, no matter how hard core you feel that you are.

Edited April 9, 2012 by Celebrus

[otakuon]

The thing is, the definition of "Hardcore Gamer" means different things to different people. For some, it means being completionists. To others, it means playing games on the most difficult settings. And in some cases, it means that you spend a significant amount of hours per week playing video/computer games. I happen to fall into the later category, and because of this, I am termed "hardcore" even though I rarely complete games (which includes reaching end level in MMOs) or play them on the hardest setting. But I do spend the vast majority of my time per week playing video/computer games, so I am considered "hardcore". To be honest, MMOs need to appeal to the widest audience possible if they are to remain "massive". Catering to only a certain segment of the market while alienating others is not good business sense when it comes to MMOs.

[Jett-Rinn]

The thing is, the definition of "Hardcore Gamer" means different things to different people. For some, it means being completionists. To others, it means playing games on the most difficult settings. And in some cases, it means that you spend a significant amount of hours per week playing video/computer games. I happen to fall into the later category, and because of this, I am termed "hardcore" even though I rarely complete games (which includes reaching end level in MMOs) or play them on the hardest setting. But I do spend the vast majority of my time per week playing video/computer games, so I am considered "hardcore". To be honest, MMOs need to appeal to the widest audience possible if they are to remain "massive". Catering to only a certain segment of the market while alienating others is not good business sense when it comes to MMOs.

 

Right something for everyone is the smart way to go; but often times we get people on both sides of the isle demanding that the game should be coded just for them.....that is the real problem.

[GalacticKegger]

Right something for everyone is the smart way to go; but often times we get people on both sides of the isle demanding that the game should be coded just for them.....that is the real problem.

Nature of the consumer satisfaction beast I guess.

[nartiuslightlord]

When you go to a football game, do the guys selling food make more money selling to the people in the stands? or the guys takin a wiz in the bathroom?

 

I heard that this game at 50 sucks because raiding is to easy. well tell that to the majority who still can't raid becuase of time constraints but really want to for the great gear, and you have your answer.

 

I might sing a different toon when I do get there, but I like the journey more then the ending so to each his own.

[Cerion]

I'm comforted to know that BW knows its audience, and it seems will be catering to casual players.

 

It'll be interesting to see if the words, however, are put into practice.

[Derbefrier]

its not an assumption. A main character and a bunch of alts to level 50 by this point in time is many many hours of game play. Reaching a very high legacy level? Then yes, sleep is good. In the OP, it reads that it has much time invested in the game. If I am in error, you are welcome to prove me wrong. You may submit a screenshot with total hours of game time as proof. Seriously. There is no MMORPG out there that can keep up to the rate in which some of you consume content. Just not possible. I seriously don't believe that nightmare mode is easy peasy for your group. I do believe you are asking for a 40 man operation that drops 2 pieces of gear so it is a status symbol and extremely rare to be seen among other players. Nothing wrong with the difficulty level there is now. It doesn't need to be ramped up. That isn't the problem. Investing too much time is however.

 

quit trying to pick a fight. hes said nothing unreasonable in fact it sounds like he understands his situation more than most hardcore raiders that come here and complain that there is nothing to do.

Edited April 9, 2012 by Derbefrier

[DukSaber]

OP is a little misguided. If a game loses the hardcore players they lose more than just subscriptions. Hardcore players not playing leads to all kinds of negative press,,,from reviews, blogs, and videos. This impacts many more people because people wont decide to play the game in the first place.