Who Swtor was made for.

[kevlarto]

I seen a statement from the dev's a long time ago, this game is made for the Star Wars/Bioware fan, does anyone really make mmo's that lean toward the hardcore niche market post wow ?

[rznkain]

This is not a game aimed at the hardcore. Many HC gamers (like myself) are guilty of trying to make this game what it simply isn't.

 

As the Bioware Rep on the Pax East Panel said, to Paraphrase "your focused demographic is usually dictated by how much the game cost to make. In the future when these game can be made faster and for less money, I'm sure we'll see a lot of games aimed a niche audiences like the hardcore but for now, you don't spend 300 million on a game for 70k-100k subscriptions."

 

When I quit WoW years ago, I said i would wait for Swtor, as it seemed to have what i wanted from a game and after 7 years, it wasn't set in Azeroth.

 

 

What i hadn't (but should have) anticipated was the targeted audience and how wide the net Swtor was casting.

 

After hitting 50, raiding and rolling numerous alts to 50 It started to sink in that the overall difficulty level of this game is not what i expected. Then again, what I expected was based on what I had hoped for rather than what was most logical for the company and the subsequent game.

 

 

Basically we the minority, the hardcore few will never change the aims of this game and would be silly to even try to. Accept What the game is, then evaluate if it is for you. Anything more is just trying to change something that was obviously not meant for your play style.

 

 

Pretty sure anyone who followed this game AT all in beta or pre release knew this game wasn't aimed at hardcore.Using WoW in this post also tells me either you are not quite sure what hardcore is when it comes to gaming.There really aren't any new hardcore mmogs that have came out for along time FF online (not the new one) was probly the last before you fall back on stuff like Eq1 and Anarchy Online etc etc.

[GalacticKegger]

I seen a statement from the dev's a long time ago, this game is made for the Star Wars/Bioware fan, does anyone really make mmo's that lean toward the hardcore niche market post wow ?

WoW lost some of its hardcore playability with the BC expansion, then went easy button with LK. I think unless a game is specific to hardcores the way MIT-level racing sims are aimed at gearheads who can't afford to race IRL, they're going the way of the dinosaur. At least in the MMO genre. Edited April 18, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[WrecklessMEDIC]

This is not a game aimed at the hardcore. Many HC gamers (like myself) are guilty of trying to make this game what it simply isn't.

 

As the Bioware Rep on the Pax East Panel said, to Paraphrase "your focused demographic is usually dictated by how much the game cost to make. In the future when these game can be made faster and for less money, I'm sure we'll see a lot of games aimed a niche audiences like the hardcore but for now, you don't spend 300 million on a game for 70k-100k subscriptions."

 

When I quit WoW years ago, I said i would wait for Swtor, as it seemed to have what i wanted from a game and after 7 years, it wasn't set in Azeroth.

 

 

What i hadn't (but should have) anticipated was the targeted audience and how wide the net Swtor was casting.

 

After hitting 50, raiding and rolling numerous alts to 50 It started to sink in that the overall difficulty level of this game is not what i expected. Then again, what I expected was based on what I had hoped for rather than what was most logical for the company and the subsequent game.

 

 

Basically we the minority, the hardcore few will never change the aims of this game and would be silly to even try to. Accept What the game is, then evaluate if it is for you. Anything more is just trying to change something that was obviously not meant for your play style.

 

Best post I've seen in quite awhile. You nailed it. This game was never meant for the hard-core gamers. It was meant for the casual ADHD players like me who will re-roll alts forever. That is the vast majority of gamers these days and that is why SWTOR will succeed for many years to come. Despite it's flaws it still caters to people like me.

[Beslley]

WoW lost some of its hardcore playability with the BC expansion, then went easy button with LK. I think unless a game is specific to hardcores the way MIT-level racing sims are aimed at gearheads who can't afford to race IRL, they're going the way of the dinosaur. At least in the MMO genre.

 

Not to nitpick, but the boss fights in BC were plenty difficult (pre nerf Kael, pre nerf Vashj, the ********* that was pre-nerf Mu'ru, etc.) IMHO, BC had a good difficulty going on for it. The bosses were hard, but not impossible.

 

I will agree that Wrath was a huge drop in difficulty overall, with the exception of a few bosses.

 

I agree that it seems that the MMO market is heading towards a more "pick up and play" experience rather than a "hardcore" one.

[GalacticKegger]

Not to nitpick, but the boss fights in BC were plenty difficult (pre nerf Kael, pre nerf Vashj, the ********* that was pre-nerf Mu'ru, etc.) IMHO, BC had a good difficulty going on for it. The bosses were hard, but not impossible.

 

I will agree that Wrath was a huge drop in difficulty overall, with the exception of a few bosses.

 

I agree that it seems that the MMO market is heading towards a more "pick up and play" experience rather than a "hardcore" one.

Ya, imho the BC instances were shorter, gimmicky and watered down a bit compared to vanilla. But I agree completely that the raids were a genuine challenge. Considering AQ was only out for a year and Naxx was out, what - maybe 6 months prior to the BC xpac, they were pretty stout. I'll probably get stoned for this, but I think Kara and ZA were fun, SS & Hyjal were meh, BT was excellent, and Mag's & Gruul's Lairs were teamwork tough (magetank!) But personally, Sunwell was the best end game instance ever created. We went back as 80s with ToC gear and still had problems with it. Edited April 18, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[Mashy]

I think that is the most honest and even handed criticism I've read yet. I quit playing MMO's years ago, I guess because they felt catered to the hardcore MMO player. Everquest, Asheron's Call, Galaxies *Which I so wanted to love but couldn't*, and the best PVP game ever done for the MMO world. Dark Age of Camelot. (If I dev reads this one... go back and look at how that game handled open world PvP and you will find some answers to your problems.)

 

Funnily enough, I have always felt that I myself was a hardcore gamer. I guess in the last few years I've been proven wrong.

 

When I played those, it felt like it took forever to reach endgame content. This game it was quite quick. WHich made me happy. Now, I don't have anything to do on my main except to raid once or twice a week. Which does leave me bored sometimes. But, for the most part. I find it to be exactly what I wanted it to be. I guess the race will be for those who aren't quite hardcore gamers, but still want to be engaged, is how quickly will we run out of content to play that is new and fresh to us, before they stop giving us new content. So far, for my play level, Bioware is still in the lead in that reguard. But, the longer they take to give each new content patch; the more likely a 2/3's hardcore MMOer like me can catch up.

 

Kudos for the comment on DAoC and the best open world PvP ever... Good times man. The fact is that ToR is going to tank and has already begun to. There is no reason to farm mats, there is no exploration and there is squat to do at 50... Hell we can't even free fly our starships to other planets. I have never been so bored of something so fast.... And believe me it hurts like hell to say all that.

[TempestDelan]

This is not a game aimed at the hardcore. Many HC gamers (like myself) are guilty of trying to make this game what it simply isn't.

 

As the Bioware Rep on the Pax East Panel said, to Paraphrase "your focused demographic is usually dictated by how much the game cost to make. In the future when these game can be made faster and for less money, I'm sure we'll see a lot of games aimed a niche audiences like the hardcore but for now, you don't spend 300 million on a game for 70k-100k subscriptions."

 

When I quit WoW years ago, I said i would wait for Swtor, as it seemed to have what i wanted from a game and after 7 years, it wasn't set in Azeroth.

 

 

What i hadn't (but should have) anticipated was the targeted audience and how wide the net Swtor was casting.

 

After hitting 50, raiding and rolling numerous alts to 50 It started to sink in that the overall difficulty level of this game is not what i expected. Then again, what I expected was based on what I had hoped for rather than what was most logical for the company and the subsequent game.

 

 

Basically we the minority, the hardcore few will never change the aims of this game and would be silly to even try to. Accept What the game is, then evaluate if it is for you. Anything more is just trying to change something that was obviously not meant for your play style.

 

Seems to me you will never be happy then. Try this: Don't live for a game! I have a family and a career, living in any game will not supplant that. I'm not saying you don't excel at life, you might . . . The thing is, I waited a long time for this game to come out after the death of SWG. It is what I expected, a Star Wars skin on a wildly popular game; World of Warcraft. If that wasn't the aim the studios and developers would be wildly stupid.

 

I think what you mean to say is that the studios and developers lacked forward thinking to break out of the box of World of Warcraft and maybe a little SWG. If that is the case I agree. However, with a multi-million dollar pricetag, it is hard to argue making decisions using evidenced indicators of popularity and potential for growth.

 

I think that while KOTOR was popular and the story arcs in this game are interesting it really lacks immersion. A large part of this is due to graphics are sub Star Wars Galaxies and certainly only having the beaten trail to follow. I think Lucas could have better trusted his legacy to Microsoft. I think the BioWare crew had KOTOR blinders on. Fresh thought on a new Star Wars MMO would have been better, or, if not, a polished version of SWG without all of the tweaks to incorporate a wildly popular game (WOW) into an existing game.

[WrecklessMEDIC]

Kudos for the comment on DAoC and the best open world PvP ever... Good times man. The fact is that ToR is going to tank and has already begun to. There is no reason to farm mats, there is no exploration and there is squat to do at 50... Hell we can't even free fly our starships to other planets. I have never been so bored of something so fast.... And believe me it hurts like hell to say all that.

 

SWTOR isn't going to tank. Nice try though. This game will be successful for many years to come. Even if they only had 500,000 subs they will be raking in the cash. I'm not too worried.

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

I think what you mean to say is that the studios and developers lacked forward thinking to break out of the box of World of Warcraft and maybe a little SWG. If that is the case I agree. However, with a multi-million dollar pricetag, it is hard to argue making decisions using evidenced indicators of popularity and potential for growth.

 

I think that while KOTOR was popular and the story arcs in this game are interesting it really lacks immersion. A large part of this is due to graphics are sub Star Wars Galaxies and certainly only having the beaten trail to follow. I think Lucas could have better trusted his legacy to Microsoft. I think the BioWare crew had KOTOR blinders on. Fresh thought on a new Star Wars MMO would have been better, or, if not, a polished version of SWG without all of the tweaks to incorporate a wildly popular game (WOW) into an existing game.

 

 

^

this, and 100% this

Edited April 18, 2012 by Lord_Ravenhurst

[FITorion]

My highest character is lvl 35. I have 14 characters. I've been playing since release.

 

I guess the game was made for me.

 

It will probably be a least a year... maybe 2 before I get a single character up to 50. There is no lack of content for me.

[Calsetes]

I think there's a slight difference between a "hardcore gamer" and a "hard-core gamer." I view myself as a "hardcore gamer" because my day consists of me going home around 5, eating dinner, then playing games until about 11 or 12 at night during the week, and playing probably 70-80% of the time I'm awake on the weekends. I play a lot. However, I don't play "the hardest of the hard modes" or work on "maxing out one character and doing everything there is to do with him" before moving onto another character or something. I'm clearly much more than a "casual game player" but clearly not "so hardcore I arrange ops groups with a calendar."

 

This game probably suits someone like me a good deal more than someone who looks to be "server firsts" and the like, and arranging raids at preset specific times throughout the month. Later on it might change and grow to accomodate more people's tastes, including the "hard-core gamers," though.

[Azumio]

Games been in development for 10 years.

 

Year Span 1-2:

Single Player. Knights of the Old Republic 3.

 

Year Span 3-4:

KOTOR 3 On Hold for Mass Effect.

 

Year Span 5+

 

Dark Years. EA Take Over. Mass Effect Ruined. Knights of the Old Republic converted to MMORPG. Mythic given project lead. Mythic has bad reputation. Mythic merged with Bioware, operates under Bioware name.

 

Year Span Current:

 

Bioware is dead. EA has done it again. Mass Effect turned to ashes. Knights of the Old Republic 3 canceled, for Star Wars: The Old Republic. SWTOR sucks. Dragon Age series ruined.

 

Year Span Future:

 

Bioware merged with another company. Bioware operates under that companies name due to bad reputation. The cycle continues.

[LeonGrand]

So just to clarify, to be a "hardcore" gamer, you can have a life. You can have a career, kids, and a significant other, and so on and so forth. We hardcore gamers just ask for one thing when we play a game. We ask for a challenge. Hardcore gamers play their games on the hardest of difficulty settings, at least I do if the option is available to me. I'm just that type of player, along with the other chosen few. We enjoy the challenge of facing an opponent that is near impossible for many others to beat. Because it requires you to really invest yourself into it. With critical thinking, analysis, and planning we are able to achieve our goals of conquering what it is that stands before us. And that is very rewarding to us. I played Elder Scrolls on the most difficult setting a few months, I had just begun and was in the sewers. It literally took around 5 mins of kiting to kill this one zombie... and it was annoying, but it was sick once I got him down.

 

The whole division between casual and hardcore is quite stupid if you ask me. It ruined WoW, and the epic raiding that used to once grace that game. I mean, I have no problem with casuals experiencing the raiding content and everything the game has to offer. But, seriously, if you're going to make a difficulty of raiding titled "Nightmare"... Well make the damn thing a nightmare. Make it a true challenge for those who wish to tackle it, and reward them accordingly with the appropriate items. Casuals could still get these items as well. It would just take them longer to attain them, through doing the "Normal", and "Hard" mode operations. Until then, they have lesser items which drop from those difficulty modes. That seems fair doesn't it?

 

Casuals view hardcore players as people with no lives who just want to eat through content, and spend many hours weekly trying to get the world first on a encounter. You also view us as snobs as well, which I think adds to it. To be honest, half of that is true. What is true is that, yes, in order to complete and learn a boss fight, we are willing to grind out the needed hours per night to perfect the fight and achieve our goal, and (for some) hopefully attain the world first.

 

In the end I hope Bioware ramps up the difficulty on Nightmare modes to accommodate both groups.

Coming from a former hardcore pve'er, to now a casual/hardcore pvp'er... Don't hate on us, we just like to be challenged and competition. Now I have me some yard work to do... FTL

Edited April 18, 2012 by LeonGrand

[WrecklessMEDIC]

So just to clarify, to be a "hardcore" gamer, you can have a life. You can have a career, kids, and a significant other, and so on and so forth. We hardcore gamers just ask for one thing when we play a game. We ask for a challenge. Hardcore gamers play their games on the hardest of difficulty settings, at least I do if the option is available to me. I'm just that type of player, along with the other chosen few. We enjoy the challenge of facing an opponent that is near impossible for many others to beat. Because it requires you to really invest yourself into it. With critical thinking, analysis, and planning we are able to achieve our goals of conquering what it is that stands before us. And that is very rewarding to us. I played Elder Scrolls on the most difficult setting a few months, I had just begun and was in the sewers. It literally took around 5 mins of kiting to kill this one zombie... and it was annoying, but it was sick once I got him down.

 

The whole division between casual and hardcore is quite stupid if you ask me. It ruined WoW, and the epic raiding that used to once grace that game. I mean, I have no problem with casuals experiencing the raiding content and everything the game has to offer. But, seriously, if you're going to make a difficulty of raiding titled "Nightmare"... Well make the damn thing a nightmare. Make it a true challenge for those who wish to tackle it, and reward them accordingly with the appropriate items. Casuals could still get these items as well. It would just take them longer to attain them, through doing the "Normal", and "Hard" mode operations. Until then, they have lesser items which drop from those difficulty modes. That seems fair doesn't it?

 

Casuals view hardcore players as people with no lives who just want to eat through content, and spend many hours weekly trying to get the world first on a encounter. You also view us as snobs as well, which I think adds to it. To be honest, half of that is true. What is true is that, yes, in order to complete and learn a boss fight, we are willing to grind out the needed hours per night to perfect the fight and achieve our goal, and (for some) hopefully attain the world first.

 

In the end I hope Bioware ramps up the difficulty on Nightmare modes to accommodate both groups.

Coming from a former hardcore pve'er, to now a casual/hardcore pvp'er... Don't hate on us, we just like to be challenged and competition. Now I have me some yard work to do... FTL

 

Agreed. There are 2 types of hardcore gamers. There are the players like yourself who play all their games on the hardest settings and will push themselves to the limits every time. These players like set schedules and will do their best to achieve a goal with like-minded players. SWTOR is not meant for this type of player.

 

Now, on the other hand you have the other kind of hardcore gamers. These players, like myself, play for an insane amount of time, typically over 50+ hours a week. We play non-stop, but we don't like games that are hard or challenging. We usually play all our games on the easiest setting even if we have experience, just because it's easier. We don't like schedules and prefer to jump into content without ever doing research beforehand. SWTOR was most definitely made for players like me.

 

Unfortunately, for the first type of hardcore player, I am part of the silent majority. And BioWare knows this.

[Captiosus]

Let me say this first: No game can cater specifically to the hardcore. A game has to be balanced these days between play types. It's a difficult balancing act, to be sure. But hardcore players are the ones who spread word of mouth references, they're the ones who bring in their friends, they're the ones who stick around on the hopes of better patches to come.

 

Casual players are far more fickle. Many will leave at the first perceived injustice or the first time a nerf happens they disagree with. They are the ones who leave a game for months because they get distracted by another game. They're not the most reliable customer "base" to be going after because as soon as they've gotten their fill, they're gone.

 

So a game that is built to last needs both types of players. Not just one or the other, or one at the expense of the other.

 

SWTOR isn't going to tank. Nice try though. This game will be successful for many years to come. Even if they only had 500,000 subs they will be raking in the cash. I'm not too worried.

 

Riiiiiiiight.

 

500K subs for a game that cost 300 million to create initially, who knows how much to maintain the ridiculous amounts of servers and bandwidth, plus labor to keep creating content, et cetera, et cetera.

 

If the game settles at 500K subs as a consistent level, they won't be rolling in dough. 500K wouldn't even be enough to keep the game on life support with its current infrastructure. And, frankly, keeping a consistent 500K is being extremely optimistic.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Captiosus

[MikelGoff]

500K subs for a game that cost 300 million to create initially, who knows how much to maintain the ridiculous amounts of servers and bandwidth, plus labor to keep creating content, et cetera, et cetera.

 

If the game settles at 500K subs as a consistent level, they won't be rolling in dough. 500K wouldn't even be enough to keep the game on life support with its current infrastructure. And, frankly, keeping a consistent 500K is being extremely optimistic.

 

We're supposed to take your word over the word of the people who made the game? They were the ones who said that 500k was good and that everything above that is just icing on the cake.

[Sabster]

500K subs for a game that cost 300 million to create initially

Way to not know anything about what you're talking about: The game didn't even break 200 million.

 

Secondly, EA has already said anything over 500,000 is enough maintain the game. Anything over 1 million accounts is overkill in profit. TOR had 1.7 million a while back; so assuming half the population quit (which isn't possible), you're still over 500,000.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Sabster

[Captiosus]

We're supposed to take your word over the word of the people who made the game? They were the ones who said that 500k was good and that everything above that is just icing on the cake.

 

Because PR equals reality?

Newsflash, it doesn't.

 

Tell ya what, when you work in IT and see how much bandwidth of this scale costs, say nothing of operating server farms, you can form your own opinion. I can tell you right now 500K subscriptions won't be enough to keep this game alive unless they do some significant hardware streamlining.

 

I don't care who you believe. But believe PR at your own peril.

[MikelGoff]

Because PR equals reality?

Newsflash, it doesn't.

 

Tell ya what, when you work in IT and see how much bandwidth of this scale costs, say nothing of operating server farms, you can form your own opinion. I can tell you right now 500K subscriptions won't be enough to keep this game alive unless they do some significant hardware streamlining.

 

I don't care who you believe. But believe PR at your own peril.

 

It's not that I believe them on the basis of it being them, it's that I don't believe in the armchair quarterbacking of somebody with 0 yrs business experience. That would be you, by the way.

[FITorion]

Because PR equals reality?

Newsflash, it doesn't.

 

Tell ya what, when you work in IT and see how much bandwidth of this scale costs, say nothing of operating server farms, you can form your own opinion. I can tell you right now 500K subscriptions won't be enough to keep this game alive unless they do some significant hardware streamlining.

 

I don't care who you believe. But believe PR at your own peril.

 

investor meetings do not = PR. They equal the facts or people get sent to jail.

[Kaonis]

The problem with SWTOR is that the devs are trying to cater to both casuals and hard core at the same time, and they are failing at both. They toss enrage on everything to make it "tough" enough for hard core players, but hard core people face roll ti and complain about no challenge. Then the casual people either aren't geared or spend time figuring out the best DPS rotation or you bring a single bad DPS to a raid and everything screeches to a halt.

[GalacticKegger]

The problem with SWTOR is that the devs are trying to cater to both casuals and hard core at the same time, and they are failing at both. They toss enrage on everything to make it "tough" enough for hard core players, but hard core people face roll ti and complain about no challenge. Then the casual people either aren't geared or spend time figuring out the best DPS rotation or you bring a single bad DPS to a raid and everything screeches to a halt.

I don't think they are trying to cater to both. I believe they are drawing a compromize/balance between the two so there's something for everyone - just won't have everything for everyone. THAT game will never exist ... at least not in our lifetimes. Edited April 19, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[Saahh]

I think that is the most honest and even handed criticism I've read yet.

 

Agree.