Who Swtor was made for.

[Dayln]

Some of them are former Hardcore players from Hello Kitty On-Line

[Jett-Rinn]

Lets see. Bad word of mouth for one thing.

 

Here's what bad word of mouth does:

 

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.274668-Dragon-Age-2-Sales

 

Yeah but here is what an educated public is saying about whose mouths it's coming from

Edited April 9, 2012 by Jett-Rinn

[Gungan]

Yeah but here is what an educated public is saying about whose mouths it's coming from

 

And yet his comments don't change the fact that DA2 sold half of what DA:O sold because bad word of mouth killed sales after 2 weeks.

 

I'm sure as hell not pre-ordering another BioWare game. They're going to have to work a lot harder for my money from now on.

Edited April 9, 2012 by Gungan

[Jett-Rinn]

And yet his comments don't change the fact that DA2 sold half of what DA:O sold because bad word of mouth killed sales after 2 weeks.

 

I'm sure as hell not pre-ordering another BioWare game. They're going to have to work a lot harder for my money from now on.

 

Baaaaaa Baaaaaa

 

Yeah but since the whiners got what the attention that they wanted people who actually understand business and markets are having their say...lets see who gets listened to in the end now. Massive sales do not come from hardcore gamers to begin with they come from the average consumer.

[Gungan]

Baaaaaa Baaaaaa

 

Yeah but since the whiners got what the attention that they wanted people who actually understand business and markets are having their say...lets see who gets listened to in the end now. Massive sales do not come from hardcore gamers to begin with they come from the average consumer.

 

And who do you think average consumers go to for opinions on games first? Their gamer friends, because they would know what kind of games they like better than some critic who gets their copy for free, and has to avoid alienating big publishers or they will stop getting early copies or exclusives.

Edited April 9, 2012 by Gungan

[Gavin_Darkl]

The problem is the "Casual Gamer". This is taken so out of context is not even funny. People do not know what the true definition of "Casual Gamer" is.

 

Example I am called a Casual Gamer because I play 3 days a week raid 2 of the 3. I have other Casual Gamers in my guild. All of them play 3 to 4 days a week, 2 to 6 hours a a pop. Most Raid 2 days or more a week.

 

There can also be the other "CASUAL GAMER" the people who solo MMOs and want nothing but SOLO progression in a game which is built around community and playing with other players.

 

CASUAL GAMER is bandied about too freely with no TRUE definition. When you do not have a TRUE definition how can you cater to that group.

 

The Problem with SWTOR as I see it is this.

 

They went for the casual gamer wanting them to think this is KOTOR 3 with a Mutliplayer aspect. MMO players came here thinking this would be Vanilla/TBC WoW with good raiding, PVP and some good SOLO progression content. Neither side got really much out of it. people are disappointed because in stead of picking an aspect to the game they wanted to be very good at they tried to cater to alot of different game play aspects and failed at it.

Edited April 10, 2012 by Yvin
removed quote + reply

[Jett-Rinn]

And who do you think average consumers go to for opinions on games? Their gamer friends, because they would know what kind of games they like better than some critic who gets their copy for free, and has to avoid alienating big publishers or they will stop getting early copies or exclusives.

 

Jack...not everyone has a gaming nerd friend and now that these people are being exposed as the agenda based whiners that they are...I have a feeling that their voice is going to be a lot less powerful going forward; but time will tell.

Edited April 9, 2012 by Jett-Rinn

[Gavin_Darkl]

Massive sales do not come from hardcore gamers to begin with they come from the average consumer.

 

There is 1 more point I would like to add to this Jett-Rinn

 

Average consumers in MMOS also do not come to the forums (60+ members in my guild I am the ONLY one out of all them that come here and post. The only time they come to the SWTOR forums is to bump a recruitment post or read patch notes.) to post and talk about what they like or dislike. They will pay for the game or not.

[Gungan]

Jack...not everyone has a gaming nerd friend and now that these people are being portrayed as the agenda based whiners that they are...I have a feeling that their voice is going to be a lot less powerful going forward; but time will tell.

 

That's fine, but when literary reviews are saying your storytelling committed suicide at the end of your game, the market analysts can go suck a lemon. There is such a thing as a customer who is dissatisfied but doesn't complain about it vocally. They just stop buying the products.

Edited April 9, 2012 by Gungan

[sharkfinsix]

This is a very well written post by the OP.

[Bluerodian]

For the last time Lucasarts didn't shut SWG down SOE chose to not renew their license which Lucasarts was perfectly willing to do. In other words blame Smed; hell he gets blamed for everything else since the Spanish Inquisition.

 

Yeah. I'm gonna call BS. Considering LA bought out the remainder of the existing contract, which they were under no obligation to do. Furthermore, both companies had said earlier that the games would coexist. There were other corporate shenanigans at work, though I doubt anyone is going to get the truth of the matter. Those that do know won't speak of it.

[Dayln]

Where we will agree is that casual player is taken out of context

 

I am a casual gamer

 

I play far more often with far more characters than most casual players play

 

I am hardcore, for a casual gamer. I call myself casual because that is my approach to the game, I just play to have fun, not worried about elitism, not worried about status, just playing for enjoyment sake.

 

it is generally those that call themselves Hardcore, that want to feel elite, that actually desire themselves to be in the tiny minority of players

 

well... they are

 

and you don’t make a successful product catering to the tiny minority of your customers.

[Kubernetic]

To the OP, a great post.

 

While I am most definitely not one of the hard core gamers, I can see why the game might not offer enough at this point to keep the interest of said gamers.

 

As you and others in this thread have said, you have to have a core group in mind when you start, and if casual gamers were the initial target in order to attempt to reap as much of that $300 million investment back as soon as possible, then it's understandable that is where the focus has been. And indeed if they try to target two separate demographics without enough resources, and fail on both counts, in the end no one is served.

 

For myself, this has been great, as I've had plenty of content to go through on numerous characters, and have enjoyed he leveling process more than in any other MMORPG I've played. I enjoy grouping with other players, and ran some fun Heroic areas on Balmorra last night, but I'm also just as happy running missions on my own so that I can take my time and not worry about whether I'm holding someone up.

 

What I hope is that ultimately, once the basic game is sufficiently prepared, that they can add content for the hard core gamers that also gives you something that makes it worth staying.

[Gungan]

Where we will agree is that casual player is taken out of context

 

I am a casual gamer

 

I play far more often with far more characters than most casual players play

 

I am hardcore, for a casual gamer. I call myself casual because that is my approach to the game, I just play to have fun, not worried about elitism, not worried about status, just playing for enjoyment sake.

 

it is generally those that call themselves Hardcore, that want to feel elite, that actually desire themselves to be in the tiny minority of players

 

well... they are

 

and you don’t make a successful product catering to the tiny minority of your customers.

 

I don't consider myself hardcore. I'm not in a world first guild, and only raid 3 nights a week. I don't PVP often either.

 

Playing more than one character per faction is painfully repetitive, and I can't do it.

 

That being said, I still think this game is way to damned easy, and the group content is monotonous and incomplete.

Edited April 9, 2012 by Gungan

[Jett-Rinn]

That's fine, but when literary reviews are saying your storytelling committed suicide at the end of your game, the market analysts can go suck a lemon. There is such a thing as a customer who is dissatisfied but doesn't complain about it vocally. They just stop buying the products.

 

What literary review is this?

 

Mass Effect 3 received over 75 perfect scores and won over 50 awards...I honestly think that speaks louder than this guy. EA will be fine as will BioWare; the people who took the real credibility hit is the Consumerist and the self entitled gamers.

[Nippon]

The problem is that people devour the game without any pauses and get burned out, don't even want to try doing things for the sake of doing things and then complain that the game is boring.

 

This isn't to be confused with people who get bored because they find the whole genre boring. Why those people keep buying games at launch from a genre they don't like in the first place, then complain that it's crap is beyond me but, well, at least BW gets more money to make the game better so *shrug*

 

This this this..

 

Personally i see myself as a bit of a hardcore player in the sense i like to do everything, Have multiple toons, craft, do space, datacrons...etc etc

 

Have i finished yet....No..

 

Will i get bored....Unlikely

 

Basically if your playing an MMO and you only want to PVP or Raid, or Craft... then you will be disappointed, no matter what you play.

 

End of the day the game will stabilize, the options will be there for players at some point who focus on 1-2 aspects of the game.....

 

For me the game is awesome.....Has done everything I like doing (basically everything) really well....and will get better and better.

 

BTW, great post OP.

[Dayln]

This this this..

 

Personally i see myself as a bit of a hardcore player in the sense i like to do everything, Have multiple toons, craft, do space, datacrons...etc etc

 

Have i finished yet....No..

 

Will i get bored....Unlikely

 

Basically if your playing an MMO and you only want to PVP or Raid, or Craft... then you will be disappointed, no matter what you play.

 

End of the day the game will stabilize, the options will be there for players at some point who focus on 1-2 aspects of the game.....

 

For me the game is awesome.....Has done everything I like doing (basically everything) really well....and will get better and better.

 

BTW, great post OP.

 

That pretty much describes me, having a blast, and enjoying bringing up several characters in each faction

[DarthPunitor]

I think that is the most honest and even handed criticism I've read yet. I quit playing MMO's years ago, I guess because they felt catered to the hardcore MMO player. Everquest, Asheron's Call, Galaxies *Which I so wanted to love but couldn't*, and the best PVP game ever done for the MMO world. Dark Age of Camelot. (If I dev reads this one... go back and look at how that game handled open world PvP and you will find some answers to your problems.)

 

Funnily enough, I have always felt that I myself was a hardcore gamer. I guess in the last few years I've been proven wrong.

 

When I played those, it felt like it took forever to reach endgame content. This game it was quite quick. WHich made me happy. Now, I don't have anything to do on my main except to raid once or twice a week. Which does leave me bored sometimes. But, for the most part. I find it to be exactly what I wanted it to be. I guess the race will be for those who aren't quite hardcore gamers, but still want to be engaged, is how quickly will we run out of content to play that is new and fresh to us, before they stop giving us new content. So far, for my play level, Bioware is still in the lead in that reguard. But, the longer they take to give each new content patch; the more likely a 2/3's hardcore MMOer like me can catch up.

 

I agree, and if you classify a hardcore player as someone who "rushes to the end to do difficult operatiosn" then, well, I'm happy im not hardcore. The leveling process is what should be fun for you. Just like in life, you should enjoy the process or you'll forever be dissapointed in the end.

[P-Funk]

I wholeheartedly reject the notion that a hardcore gamer is someone who rushes to finish something. I'm pretty hardcore about my gaming and I if anything enjoy a nice long progression where I savour my achievements and enjoy the arc. Many people who self classified or are so called by others as being hardcore consider the story a meaningless feature that just gets in the way of them finishing the content.

 

Rushing to finish. Pushing to dismantle the entire game into a cynical block of logical puzzles that you must defeat isn't the only way to be hardcore.

 

This attitude about hardcore means that anytime somebody with even a reasonable sense of dissatisfaction with how easy it is to blow through content in TOR gets labelled as somebody who should get some sleep.

 

There is a point when you don't have to be a hardcore monster to think something is too easy. The problem is that many many many people seem to think that this game should only be accessible if you can effectively, as someone earlier in the thread said, switch their brain off and play it in place of watching TV.

 

I don't think I'm crazy for sayin that that is a pretty restrictive way for most of us to play if we actually like to keep our brains switched on most of the time.

[Gungan]

What literary review is this?

 

Mass Effect 3 received over 75 perfect scores and won over 50 awards...I honestly think that speaks louder than this guy. EA will be fine as will BioWare; the people who took the real credibility hit is the Consumerist and the self entitled gamers.

 

The California Literary Review for one. "Storytelling suicide". Direct quote.

 

Furthermore, those 75 perfect scores are from reviewers who get paid to play the game but not finish it, not people who personally pay their own money to play the game. In addition, review "scores" have been under attack for years as an accurate representation of the product. Where have you been?

 

It also doesn't matter how many perfect scores you get when the last thing someone remembers about your product is that it failed to maintain its quality until the end.

Edited April 9, 2012 by Gungan

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

Yeah. I'm gonna call BS. Considering LA bought out the remainder of the existing contract, which they were under no obligation to do. Furthermore, both companies had said earlier that the games would coexist. There were other corporate shenanigans at work, though I doubt anyone is going to get the truth of the matter. Those that do know won't speak of it.

 

Exactly - which brings me back to my theory Lucasarts is developing its own RPG.

Also, including space combat and openworld/SWG style, therefore not allowing off-rails space combat for SWTOR and SWTCWA (both theme park).

Evidence here and here

 

Interesting news I sense, in the distant future...

Edited April 9, 2012 by Lord_Ravenhurst

[Shingara]

Exactly - which brings me back to my theory Lucasarts is developing its own RPG.

Also, including space combat and openworld/SWG style, therefore not allowing off-rails space combat for TOR and Clone Wars Adventures (both theme park).

Evidence here and here

 

Interesting news I sense, in the distant future...

 

And it never once accured to you that lucas maybe doing stuff for bioware on there lead IP ?

[MidichIorian]

The difference between a HC and a casual is that the HC is willing for put in time and effort while the casual is just looking for instant rewards. So devs are coming up with pointless gimmicks to reward these casuals on the expense of longetitvity and keeping the other group satisfied.

 

Now, the kicker is that the casuals would have bought and played the games anyway because they're rarely researching, it's usually just a matter of reading the name for them. I can't remember seeing any forum, for any game, being filled by "this game is too hard" threads. I have however seen thousands of posts and threads asking devs to go back to the roots of the specific genre. Why can't they realize that if a genre or game is successful it's because they used to do something right? This goes double for games with sequels.

[Seregul]

I wholeheartedly reject the notion that a hardcore gamer is someone who rushes to finish something. I'm pretty hardcore about my gaming and I if anything enjoy a nice long progression where I savour my achievements and enjoy the arc. Many people who self classified or are so called by others as being hardcore consider the story a meaningless feature that just gets in the way of them finishing the content.

 

Rushing to finish. Pushing to dismantle the entire game into a cynical block of logical puzzles that you must defeat isn't the only way to be hardcore.

 

This attitude about hardcore means that anytime somebody with even a reasonable sense of dissatisfaction with how easy it is to blow through content in TOR gets labelled as somebody who should get some sleep.

 

There is a point when you don't have to be a hardcore monster to think something is too easy. The problem is that many many many people seem to think that this game should only be accessible if you can effectively, as someone earlier in the thread said, switch their brain off and play it in place of watching TV.

 

I don't think I'm crazy for sayin that that is a pretty restrictive way for most of us to play if we actually like to keep our brains switched on most of the time.

 

The words "casual" and "hardcore" are almost entirely without any concrete meaning. Mostly they're used as derogatory labels.

[Dayln]

The words "casual" and "hardcore" are almost entirely without any concrete meaning. Mostly they're used as derogatory labels.

 

You &^%&%$$%# moderate players are the problem!