Suggested change to CC breaker abilities: Add a short 3sec CC immunity duration

[lordhelmos]

The suggested change is as follows:

 

EDITED NEW IDEA:

 

Add a 3 seconds CC immunity effect that is indicated by a visible character graphic when a player uses a CC breaker such as "determination" or "force of will." During this time the player's resolve bar will be locked and will not be effected by CC's absorbed by the immunity duration.

 

This would solve a lot of group CC problems where a player is getting barraged by 5-6 CC abilities used by multiple enemies and being unable to take action.

 

This will also allow players to strategically "precast" a CC breaker to max resolve when encountering a large pack of enemies and make for better strategic play.

 

Logical reasons for the change:

 

In their current form, CC breakers do very little against "dogpiles" of CC effects. This is especially important to note due to all of the warzones having mission objectives that force a large amount of players into a small skirmish area, which absolutely guarantees your gonna get hit by at least 3 CC's back to back unless your are playing on the fringe.

 

Notes: I edited the original post to propose a much more balanced idea brought on by the suggestions of other players. The original idea is posted below and would be too overpowered to be considered viable.

 

-------------------------------------

 

 

ORIGINAL IDEA:

 

Allow all crowd control breaking abilities (such as force of will, determination, etc.) to immediately push the player's resolve bar to max.

Edited April 8, 2012 by lordhelmos
Idea improved

[Dee-Jay]

This would indeed address a lot of issues people have with CCs, but I fear it would be a little open to exploit.

 

Imagine you're on your final stretch towards the enemy goal line in Huttball. Under normal circumstances you're still susceptible to stuns, roots and pulls from anywhere. But by using your "Determination" you can make yourself immune for ~10 seconds allowing you to easily score.

 

On demand CC immunity, especially for ~10 seconds is a little OP.

 

I agree that a very brief immunity would be helpful when using the "trinket" but no more than 2-3 seconds or you're causing serious balance issues.

 

I'd much rather Bioware just increased the cooldown on some of these pulls/ AoE knockbacks etc. With a 20 second CD on AoE knockbacks and a 45 second CD on pulls, it's no wonder CC feels like an utter cluster**** in this game.

 

Edit: But honestly I never liked the idea of CC immunity to counter-balance CC spam. I just don't like the idea that your abilities are suddenly rendered useless.

 

I'd much rather have a much more balanced CC situation than anything that relies on immunities to work.

 

I made a more elegant suggestion here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=383001

 

It's more intuitive and doesn't necessarily require the addition of artificial limiters and exceptions.

Edited April 8, 2012 by Dee-Jay

[Kaarsa]

 

I'd much rather Bioware just reduced the cooldown on some of these pulls/ AoE knockbacks etc. With a 20 second CD on AoE knockbacks and a 45 second CD on pulls, it's no wonder CC feels like an utter cluster**** in this game.

 

You mean increased CD?

 

Apart from that, I agree with you, 10 sec CC immunity on demand is to much. Maybe some brief immunity (like 2-3 seconds) with characteristic graphical effect?

[lordhelmos]

I can see two work arounds for this:

 

A.) Using a CC breaker causes resolve to drain twice as fast, leaving your vulnerable to stuns faster and only granting half the immunity time.

 

or

 

B.) Simply just adding a 3 second CC immunity duration to the effect of using a CC breaker. During this time your resolve bar is locked and is unaffected by CCs during the immunity.

 

Choice B would probably be the easier and more balanced choice.

 

In their current form, CC breakers do very little against "dogpiles" of CC effects. This is especially important to note due to all of the warzones having mission objectives that force a large amount of players into a small skirmish area, which absolutely guarantees your gonna get hit by at least 3 CC's back to back unless your are playing on the fringe.

 

 

*******

 

As an important note, this thread opens discussion on a much needed and vital PVP element, which is some sort of factor that gives a player solid defenses against a string of CC abilities.

Edited April 8, 2012 by lordhelmos

[Zunayson]

This would indeed address a lot of issues people have with CCs, but I fear it would be a little open to exploit.

 

Imagine you're on your final stretch towards the enemy goal line in Huttball. Under normal circumstances you're still abe to be stunned, rooted and pulled from anywhere. But by using your "Determination" you can make yourself immune for ~10 seconds allowing you to easily score.

 

On demand CC immunity, especially for ~10 seconds is a little OP.

 

I agree that a very brief immunity would be helpful when using the "trinket" but no more than 2-3 seconds or you're causing serious balance issues.

 

I'd much rather Bioware just increased the cooldown on some of these pulls/ AoE knockbacks etc. With a 20 second CD on AoE knockbacks and a 45 second CD on pulls, it's no wonder CC feels like an utter cluster**** in this game.

 

 

The only problem is to make them on insane 2 and 3 minute cooldowns, but the root problem is the players, and you can't really force the players NOT to use cc except tactically, just like you can't force them to go republic.

 

Shh... don't mention the Sniper's 20 second CC immunity with Entrench... http://www.torhead.com/ability/4cr4OBw/entrench

Edited April 8, 2012 by Zunayson

[JediDuckling]

The suggested change is as follows:

 

Allow all crowd control breaking abilities (such as force of will, determination, etc.) to immediately push the player's resolve bar to max.

 

This will grant players who use a CC breaker temporary invulnerability to CC effects while their resolve is draining after the breaker use.

 

This would solve a lot of group CC problems where a player is getting barraged by 5-6 CC abilities used by multiple enemies and being unable to take action.

 

This will also allow players to strategically "precast" a CC breaker to max resolve when encountering a large pack of enemies and make for better strategic play.

 

this is actualy a pretty good idea

 

althout the resolve bar is broken and you can still be immune to everything with an empty resolve and be stun locked with a full resolve bar and alot of the items that stun etc and abilitys that do are not on the resolve bar's list. <------------ tese will need to be fixed for your idea to work properly but none the less which is still a great idea in the first place

[Johnny_Blazexxx]

Well if you actually have your team use CC abilities properly, then all the problems vanish suddenly.

 

And if you save your "trinket" for a moment when you've got full resolve, then all the problems vanish suddenly.

 

+++

 

SOLUTION:

 

Wait for 8-man premade rated WZs, judge skill of your teammates, then adjust it so you can secure more wins, then go back to this topic and reconsider.

 

PvP isn't really about 1-2-3-4 rotation, nor it is about any kind of DPS. It is about playing the objective and team choreography. That's why the only questionable "balance" thing in this game is whether tanks should be able to do more damage than actual DPS classes or not.

 

SOLUTION 2:

 

The fastest way of clearing a node on Alderaan or a door in Voidstar is to catch as many people as you can in a group stun and then fire all the AoE on them. This however requires choreography also, which means that people who play this game are supposed to have brains and be good at making decisions. If you're suggesting, that CC should be easier countered, then you're bringing this game to look more like: "if we DPS everybody in this WZ and burn them down, then we win". That's why there's so much crying for Deathmatch gameplay type. Really, no one asked you to stay in group and get stunned. Someone just took advantage of your "skill".

Edited April 8, 2012 by Johnny_Blazexxx

[dronepilot]

Well if you actually have your team use CC abilities properly, then all the problems vanish suddenly.

 

And if you save your "trinket" for a moment when you've got full resolve, then all the problems vanish suddenly.

 

+++

 

SOLUTION:

 

Wait for 8-man premade rated WZs, judge skill of your teammates, then adjust it so you can secure more wins, then go back to this topic and reconsider.

 

PvP isn't really about 1-2-3-4 rotation, nor it is about any kind of DPS. It is about playing the objective and team choreography. That's why the only questionable "balance" thing in this game is whether tanks should be able to do more damage than actual DPS classes or not.

 

SOLUTION 2:

 

The fastest way of clearing a node on Alderaan or a door in Voidstar is to catch as many people as you can in a group stun and then fire all the AoE on them. This however requires choreography also, which means that people who play this game are supposed to have brains and be good at making decisions. If you're suggesting, that CC should be easier countered, then you're bringing this game to look more like: "if we DPS everybody in this WZ and burn them down, then we win". That's why there's so much crying for Deathmatch gameplay type. Really, no one asked you to stay in group and get stunned. Someone just took advantage of your "skill".

 

Really ? so you are condoning the idea its fine, for 4 or 5 people or perhaps the whole team to throw CC's and stun at one player ? - isn't this a little over the top ? Resolve has never worked for me any how, I do not see any solutions here to the problems of multiple cc's being thrown at a player, and being then rooted, and killed. Your talking about CCing a group of players together, which is to my mind, different, from a group of players ganking 1 player on their own, or being targeted by over zealous CC's and stuns just to prevent that player being able to participate in that Warzone.

[Johnny_Blazexxx]

Really ? so you are condoning the idea its fine, for 4 or 5 people or perhaps the whole team to throw CC's and stun at one player ? - isn't this a little over the top ?[/Quote]

 

There's nothing wrong with this. Eventually every thread about something that should be nerfed or doesn't work ends up the same. Focus fire is overpowered - not classes. And that's the right way of things. You have to focus fire someone to take him/her down in seconds, or completely shut him/her out of the combat. If you recall your lost matches, you will come to a conclusion, that losses occur not necessarily due to team being undergeared or imbalanced, but rather improper usage of CC's and lack of focus firing. If there's 3 healers and you can't kill one by focusing, then you have to spread and damage/CC others to put more strain on them. Then you watch if they use CC breakers - if yes - then someone else puts on them their concussion charge / whirlwind / flashbang etc. If you're playing a healer yourself for example, you should tell your team on TS/Vent, who has used it, so they will know who's vulnerable to what and take proper action. That's why it is possible to win WZs by having a 4-man premade, because rest is just filling a spot - nothing else. They can be utterly useless. You will loose only if you pop your CC's and they break them prematurely.

 

Huttball matches are the greatest example of how important is to time your utility. You loose everytime pugs throw all their CC on a ball carrier at once. They guy barely picked the ball up and he's already full on resolve (like, in the middle of the map!). How wrong is that? Who does it and what's the purpose? If he's a tank, then it's over.

 

Resolve has never worked for me any how, I do not see any solutions here to the problems of multiple cc's being thrown at a player, and being then rooted, and killed.

 

Sometimes I feel, that resolve works only on me, and everybody else is being perma-stunned. Once again - resolve works! It just doesn't prevent roots. Having 3 guardians leap to you is annoying I know. But then again, where's the team?

 

What are guardians whining about? Harpoons of course. There's nothing worse than using your leaps and being pulled back to where you started (and then most often comes the CC immunity bubble). Ultimate ragequit.

 

I play a Sage healer. I get CC'd and rooted and snared everytime I appear too close to where I shouldn't be at all. And I die in seconds to Merc+PT, PT+Mara, Mara+Jugg combos. I cannot do anything to prevent this except one - stay out of LoS. It is achievable, you can only take my word for it, but it's possible.

 

Your talking about CCing a group of players together, which is to my mind, different, from a group of players ganking 1 player on their own, or being targeted by over zealous CC's and stuns just to prevent that player being able to participate in that Warzone.

 

Well but isn't it all about ganking? Ganking is overpowered because it's all about killing players, who have absolutely no chance of survival. It's being the most unfair to people, but that's the way it works, I'm sorry... If gankers are overzealous in CC, then you're gonna have your immunity no problem. After two seconds into a fight, you will see your resolve bar flashing and voila - you're immune for even longer than 3 seconds, as suggested in this thread. But if there's leapers on the ganking team - you're dead. And there's nothing you can do about it.

 

I remember we had some very interesting Ilum fights at a time, when there was actually a point of doing this. We assembled a group of 8 people and played against a 1.5 Ops group from Empire. I was the only visible member of our team, the rest were Shadows and Scoundrels. You cannot win 8 vs. 40, right? Right, but you can annoy them to a point, when there's nothing else to do than farm armaments (takes forever) or just quit, so it's back to 8v8. I was a bait. I walked up different ramps everytime and everybody else was literally on my back, waiting for someone to come by and try to gank me. They even switched their tactics later and if anyone spotted me first, they didn't charge straight away - instead just called for help. So 5 people charged me and then *wham* - Shoots First x4, 20k damage and we're done here. We were getting 3 kills per 5 mins this way, but it was so much fun. The only people that complained about someone being unfair/OP/imba were the 40 Imps, who worked in a too large group, impossible to control by anyone. By the time the rest came in from the middle rock, it was already over and I was on my speeder lurking a different ramp already.

[ShadowOfVey]

If you don't like tankasins running the ball in huttball now, you'll like it even less when after they get 5 secs of force shroud, they got 3 secs of immunity from the CC breaker too.

 

That would mean if I cleared the first fire trap in huttball with the ball and still had force speed, force shroud, and my CC break up...you might as well ignore me and start running for mid to get the ball, because I'm going to score.

[Bocherel]

Actually a 1 or 1.5sec immunity would be just fine

 

More than this would break a couple class gameplay, and the full resolve bar idea is just too much, it leaves no room for tactic and you won't need to be careful anymore.

[DarkGrunt]

Honestly I think resolve would be fine with just a few tweaks and peaks. First off, resolve depletes in combat and without being full. This is BAD, if a Sorc pushes you off a ramp in Huttball your resolve fills up 25% or so and by the time you run back to the fight its depleted. Resolve SHOULD NEVER deplete unless your out of combat or its completely full.

 

I also think that roots and movement impairment should effect resolve as well. And for abilities such as Grapple that with a talent sinked into it roots the target should increase resolve more.

 

As for stuff like Force Shroud, IMHO it should drop the ball. The way I look at it any ability that makes you practically immune to damage or CC, should drop the ball. Otherwise since, rated WZ are around the corner. People will simply have PT, Sorcs, and Assassins for their teams and will be unstoppable.

[Fedora]

You can't use a cc breaker without being CCed............

[Thexremstar]

Isnt that what RESOLVE is !

 

 

Thexremstar

[Xsorus]

If you don't like tankasins running the ball in huttball now, you'll like it even less when after they get 5 secs of force shroud, they got 3 secs of immunity from the CC breaker too.

 

That would mean if I cleared the first fire trap in huttball with the ball and still had force speed, force shroud, and my CC break up...you might as well ignore me and start running for mid to get the ball, because I'm going to score.

 

This pretty much....

 

People never think about longer term balance issues their moronic changes might cause.

[Thexremstar]

Honestly I think resolve would be fine with just a few tweaks and peaks. First off, resolve depletes in combat and without being full. This is BAD, if a Sorc pushes you off a ramp in Huttball your resolve fills up 25% or so and by the time you run back to the fight its depleted. Resolve SHOULD NEVER deplete unless your out of combat or its completely full.

 

I also think that roots and movement impairment should effect resolve as well. And for abilities such as Grapple that with a talent sinked into it roots the target should increase resolve more.

 

As for stuff like Force Shroud, IMHO it should drop the ball. The way I look at it any ability that makes you practically immune to damage or CC, should drop the ball. Otherwise since, rated WZ are around the corner. People will simply have PT, Sorcs, and Assassins for their teams and will be unstoppable.

 

 

resolve reduction with "out of combat "

 

hmmm takes a long time to get out of combat unless I vanish (disappearing act) I dont think that would fix it.

 

If you have been CC bye say a sorcerer your resolve fills up so If you can not kill the sorcerer with out help run away call for help, dont just get cc again. I find running around LOSing my opponent works tendon blasts and calling for help. When in hutt ball not a great deal anyone can do all the other classes have push pull knock down. Resolve has been an issue for sometime with alot of players I think mainly people dont understand it dont know what is classed as a CC and think everything that makes them lose control of the character is a CC when in fact it is not!

Im not sure but i think resolve works just fine!

Thexremstar

[Adzzy]

the last thing this game needs is to be made easier, alothough that being said, a lot of the changes i often hear people prospose are falling into the "can't do that because X will happen in huttball", so much so that even though i like huttball more than the other wzs, it seems intrinsically game breaking. Edited April 9, 2012 by Adzzy

[Bnol]

Learn to use the CC breaker at the right time. Bad play should be punished. There is no need to have the CC immunity.

[Thexremstar]

The suggested change is as follows:

 

EDITED NEW IDEA:

 

Add a 3 seconds CC immunity effect that is indicated by a visible character graphic when a player uses a CC breaker such as "determination" or "force of will." During this time the player's resolve bar will be locked and will not be effected by CC's absorbed by the immunity duration.

 

This would solve a lot of group CC problems where a player is getting barraged by 5-6 CC abilities used by multiple enemies and being unable to take action.

 

This will also allow players to strategically "precast" a CC breaker to max resolve when encountering a large pack of enemies and make for better strategic play.

 

Logical reasons for the change:

 

In their current form, CC breakers do very little against "dogpiles" of CC effects. This is especially important to note due to all of the warzones having mission objectives that force a large amount of players into a small skirmish area, which absolutely guarantees your gonna get hit by at least 3 CC's back to back unless your are playing on the fringe.

 

Notes: I edited the original post to propose a much more balanced idea brought on by the suggestions of other players. The original idea is posted below and would be too overpowered to be considered viable.

 

-------------------------------------

 

 

ORIGINAL IDEA:

 

Allow all crowd control breaking abilities (such as force of will, determination, etc.) to immediately push the player's resolve bar to max.

 

that is the whole point of resolve all your suggestion will do is extend the time you can not be CCed. If your resolve bar is empty be aware that u can be cced at this point and should consider evasive action if you've an onslaught comeing your way!

 

Its all about tactics!

 

Thexremstar

[ShadowOfVey]

the last thing this game needs is to be made easier, alothough that being said, a lot of the changes i often hear people prospose are falling into the "can't do that because X will happen in huttball", so much so that even though i like huttball more than the other wzs, it seems intrinsically game breaking.

 

Huttball's the only redeeming quality of the game at the moment, so I think it would be best to just remove everything non huttball related for now.

[Rynis]

The suggested change is as follows:

 

EDITED NEW IDEA:

 

Add a 3 seconds CC immunity effect that is indicated by a visible character graphic when a player uses a CC breaker such as "determination" or "force of will." During this time the player's resolve bar will be locked and will not be effected by CC's absorbed by the immunity duration.

 

 

 

Really like the idea of having a little immunity after you use your CC breaker. I also think the cooldown should be lowered. With so many CC's in the game why is it on a 2 minute cool down? 1 30 or a 1 minute is more logical.

[Darth_Philar]

No thanks. I like the resolve system as it serves as a "skill check" for my competition.

 

Besides, the 12 - 20 seconds of CC immunity available to smart resolve use is vastly superior to 3 seconds.

[Arumat]

*ahem*...

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=394098

 

 

My original thought was to not have a set time or fill it on use, but trigger what resolve you currently have and drain it at a double rate. Pretty much halving the effectiveness.

 

Makes you think twice about using it a little more.

[Isislol]

Just increase CDs on knockbacks/snares/stuns so people actually will have to learn to kite etc instead of spamming CC everytime it's off CD.