why be a pure DPS when DPS tanks do more damage

[Tyraelium]

How do you CC 8 people in Voidstar and Civil War to cap?

 

<.<

 

I thought you said they were facing DPS, not braindead vegetables who don't have CC breakers, CC, or know how to stop a cap.

 

You don't need to CC 8 people...

 

Voidstar...

 

You don't need to kill anybody, you simply need to have effective CC to cap a door. Most commonly used strategy is something like 6-2, where the 2 involve a stealth and a person quick with any type of CC/knockback. Killing people is completely optional. On the off chance you are playing another awesome premade team, you can conceivably just play for the draw -- coinflip for a win.

 

Civil War...

 

Again, you don't need to kill anybody. You should try and sprint to cap first. If you get it off, good, you're now set up with tanks and healers to keep people from recapping it. If you can't get the cap off initially, then you go on survival mode. A tank and a healer (or two) can keep 2-5 people busy at a node AND keep the cap clear while the rest of the team mobilizes elsewhere. Even if you only hold 1 node, if you can keep the other 2 grey you will win eventually.

 

Both these Warzones are just about stalling, which tank/healers are awesome at. You can make an argument that burst DPS in Civil War is pretty valuable, but it just isn't the case in Voidstar.

[Zunayson]

in 1.2, both Pure DPS ACs will have the only healing debuffs

 

 

That is all

/thread

[Sylriana]

Sure you can throw in healers in this equation to make the result worse. But for who?

 

The healer makes the tank look much worse...

 

This isn't WoW where you can slowly bleed a healer dry of resources. Burst to either out-damage the healer's healing or to force them to heal so hard that they break their regeneration is much more effective.

[Ryotknife]

There is a lot of flawed logic here. My hybrid tank do more damage in a wz than my dps. My dps however do much more in short period of time. Who wins?

 

Here is the problem. Even though my dps can do much more in short period of time, my tank can do almost exact the same amount. Reason for this is my tanks ability to take less damage than my dps because of defenses and armour. Who wins? The tank.

 

Now this can be fine. Every class should have a nemesis. But to say that the damage my tank do is meaningless is very very bad. Its actually no logic at all. Damage is damage in a set amount of time against a set amount of health.

 

This is an equation:

 

You have a gun and you have a handgrenade. The handgrenade kill 3 in 1 minute. The gun kill 1 in 5 seconds, then after 30 seconds he can kill another. Who won at the end of the day?

 

Sure you can throw in healers in this equation to make the result worse. But for who?

 

i can only speak from a powertech perspective but...

 

tank or tank/dps pt specs do not have a whole lot more survivability than a pure dps spec, especially if they are using guard. what my tank or tank/dps pt does have is more utility and an escape tool.

 

basically, i would choose a tank/dps spec for huttball, and a pyro spec for voidstar and civil war.

 

the only people who are ACTUAL tanks in pvp are healers, or people with guard on them.

[kronomandar]

It's about tanks in DPS gear (because tanking gear is worthless in PvP) doing 500k damage / 100k+ protection at the end of a warzone match.

 

It does happen.

 

It's still not what the OP seems to think is happening, though.

 

i've gotten numbers like that on my juggernaught....in dps gear....specced dps: full rage lolsmash...while running in sorosu stance.

 

required a good healer on my side, who i guarded.

[kronomandar]

....on the otehr hand vengeance mostly for me and rage jugger's can easily overcome marauder dmg output..

 

you post is meaningless. this thread is about tanks out-dpsing dps classes.

 

stating that dps specced jugs (both vengance and rage are dps trees) can out dps marauders is comparing apples to...well...other apples.

both a dps, neither are tanks.

[Xsorus]

I've yet to have a Hybrid Tank/DPS come anywhere close to me in damage and kills on my Pyro Powertech.

 

You get more survivability going for those defensive based specs, but you will never come close to putting out anywhere near the same amount of damage as a Pure DPS spec of any of the ACs.

 

If i can safely say i can die more then most Hybrid Tanks/DPS's in a Warfront, and still clear a good 100k to 200k more damage then them, while tripling their kills

[Darth_Philar]

But Warzones do not follow the rules of your example. A warzone lasts a set number of seconds. You have that time to damage people. The resulting damage total divided by the time the warzone took is your dps. Time spent dead or running is time spent dealing no damage.

Also I don't get all the aoe bashing. Damage is damage. It needs to be healed up when it is dealt or people die. If you deal mediocre damage per target, but to multiple targets, it still creates a lot of pressure. If it is dealt to only one target, it usually is easier to heal or avoid/mitigate. AOE, contrary to popular belief, is not bad in warzones.

There is a place for aoe damage and for single target damage and both is helpful and important. AOEs weaken multiple enemies making it easy for single target dps to alpha strike them down, the more targets weakend, the harder for a healer to react.

AOE is a utility in pvp like any other utility.

 

But, it needs to be said, damage stats are also way overrated in warzones. Not always is the one who deals the most damage the one who helps the team in the warzone effort the best.

 

You do not reach DPS by taking the total number of seconds and dividing total damage into it, that is how you reach AVERAGE DPS which is a completely meaningless statistic (just like total damage done). Actual DPS is only measured during active combat. Dead time is not counted. Rez time is not counted. Running to the fight time is not counted. Defending an empty node time is not counted.

 

From my car example, the Prius will go 15 hours on one tank of gas which we will call the "match length". The Ferrari will go 1.1 hour on one tank of gas. The Ferrari still goes 210 MPH but its average over the "match length" drops all the way to 14 MPH because it spends 13.9 hours of the drive by the side of the road on empty. Using your method, you would essentially argue that Ferraris can only go 14 MPH which is incorrect. They still go 210 MPH, they just have a lower average over the arbitrary measuring length being imposed (the match length).

[Rudollis]

The way language works though is that we have roughly similar understandings of what a word means. That allows to communicate concepts.

 

For DPS, the accepted definition is the damage per second while you are fighting. Trying to use that term to apply to something else just muddles the issue.

 

DPS is a set terminology. You are using it incorrectly, it means damage dealt per time spent. Time is a variable in the equation.

The way language works is that we use words according to their definition, not redefine mathematical formulas to mean what we want to express. Cause that would "muddle issues".

When you are talking game mechanics, you are talking mechanics, physics, maths, science. You'll have to use their terminology correctly, else conversation is pointless in that field.

[Tadus]

DPS Juggs are not Tanks. Agreed.

 

What bothers me is that a good DPS Jugg with heavy armor, guard, 2 leaps, Choke, push, etc, hits harder than most operatives who are supposed to be the high-gank damage class. We also have next to zero utility, and have to wait an eternity to restealth if someone CCs us and runs away, but I'll keep it at that.

 

 

What's more, i have to be in stealth, behind a guy to use Hidden Strike, while Juggs just jump over to me and bam 4k hit.

 

Le sigh

[YanksfanJP]

http://i43.tinypic.com/2e0p5k2.jpg

 

It's not tanks, it's assassin tanks. 500k damage, 100k protection, 75k healing... Yeah let's hit that with the nerf stick please.

 

 

Look at the scoreboard. The empire didn't make it through the first door. That means the Shadow Tank was likely just spamming Discharge and Wither (whatever the Alli equivalents are called) or maybe Force Breach/Death Field depending on how he was specced. That's hardly OP, it just means the other team was terrible.

 

Sorry, didn't mean to confuse you with facts and logic.

Edited April 6, 2012 by YanksfanJP

[Ewgal]

You're reading it wrong. The Empires best healer did getting up to 500K heals, that suggests a lot of fighting was done at the doors. Problem with Voidstar is a lapse of concentration can let the other team get 4 objectives real easily. Usually high dmg or heal numbers mean it went a long distance.

[Rudollis]

You do not reach DPS by taking the total number of seconds and dividing total damage into it, that is how you reach AVERAGE DPS which is a completely meaningless statistic (just like total damage done). Actual DPS is only measured during active combat. Dead time is not counted. Rez time is not counted. Running to the fight time is not counted. Defending an empty node time is not counted.

 

From my car example, the Prius will go 15 hours on one tank of gas which we will call the "match length". The Ferrari will go 1.1 hour on one tank of gas. The Ferrari still goes 210 MPH but its average over the "match length" drops all the way to 14 MPH because it spends 13.9 hours of the drive by the side of the road on empty. Using your method, you would essentially argue that Ferraris can only go 14 MPH which is incorrect. They still go 210 MPH, they just have a lower average over the arbitrary measuring length being imposed (the match length).

 

you just define your own maths then, see who follows.

Your car example is just the same. Your prius will have a higher mph on a really long track then the ferrari if it really runs out of fuel that quickly. Of course the ferrari has a much higher top speed and much higher accelleration. But which has the higher miles per hour depends entirely on the track length then. Actually in your example, the ferrari will lose any of the races, because it can't reach the finishing line, which is amusing.

 

If you want to measure the efficiency of a class in a warzone, of course you have to factor in the time during which the one class does absolutely nothing! A dead damage dealer doesn't contribute anything to the fight. He better be damn effective whilst alive to make up for being dead so much. Usually, though, glas cannons aren't so efficient, hence most damage classes go for some survivability, too, to increase their uptime in battle.

So yes. It is important to consider all of that and not just look at the burst capability.

 

And don't you ever look down on people defending empty nodes. Nothing's worse than losing a node that is not defended, because the defender wants to get some kills too.

[Blloodbane]

 

In reality, I'd much rather take the guy who can actually burst a healer down and only do 17k damage than the guy who will do 200k damage to a healer and never actually kill them.

 

Wish others would see this LOL... I have a carnage Marauder and I often times have as many kills and equal or less deaths than others but about 50% to 70% the damage of others. People seem to only look at total damage or healing on the score cards. They dont seem to realize what I attack, I kill and dont take 5 minutes to do it...

[Cowflab]

Look at the scoreboard. The empire didn't make it through the first door. That means the Shadow Tank was likely just spamming Discharge and Wither (whatever the Alli equivalents are called) or maybe Force Breach/Death Field depending on how he was specced. That's hardly OP, it just means the other team was terrible.

 

Sorry, didn't mean to confuse you with facts and logic.

 

Wth is an Alli? This isn't Azeroth homeboy...

[Monoth]

 

In reality, I'd much rather take the guy who can actually burst a healer down and only do 17k damage than the guy who will do 200k damage to a healer and never actually kill them.

 

 

As a gunslinger the only healer I can burst down easily is another Smuggler/Operative.... Sorcs/Sages who are spec'ed right are impossible to take down solo with their shields and never ending force allows them to spam heals non stop even with interruptions being used on them.

 

BH's/Troopers gear and shields negate a lot of the damage done by Smugglers/Operatives so even if we burst them with everything we got we usually only get them down to around 30% before we run out of energy and then were sitting ducks....

Edited April 6, 2012 by Monoth

[Semitote]

Look at the scoreboard. The empire didn't make it through the first door. That means the Shadow Tank was likely just spamming Discharge and Wither (whatever the Alli equivalents are called) or maybe Force Breach/Death Field depending on how he was specced. That's hardly OP, it just means the other team was terrible.

 

Sorry, didn't mean to confuse you with facts and logic.

 

My point is... Immortal Spec Juggs and Shield Tech Spec Powertechs cannot do that kind of damage.

 

The class is overpowered... If it's AoE that's overpowered, nerf the AoE. Regardless of how you chop it up, a kinetic spec'd Shadow in a full Rakata tank set should not be doing 500k damage. I don't care what the situation is. It's unacceptable. Especially when he also got 100k protection and 75k healing.

[Vaipyr]

DPS tanks to as much or more damage in WZ then pure dps.

 

You need to learn the definition of DPS vs sustained damage. I assure you, tanks do NOT do as much DPS as a DPS character. Doing more DPS is an even more absurd claim. Learn the difference between sustained damage and DPS and then get back to us after your education.

[Darth_Philar]

you just define your own maths then, see who follows.

Your car example is just the same. Your prius will have a higher mph on a really long track then the ferrari if it really runs out of fuel that quickly. Of course the ferrari has a much higher top speed and much higher accelleration. But which has the higher miles per hour depends entirely on the track length then. Actually in your example, the ferrari will lose any of the races, because it can't reach the finishing line, which is amusing.

 

If you want to measure the efficiency of a class in a warzone, of course you have to factor in the time during which the one class does absolutely nothing! A dead damage dealer doesn't contribute anything to the fight. He better be damn effective whilst alive to make up for being dead so much. Usually, though, glas cannons aren't so efficient, hence most damage classes go for some survivability, too, to increase their uptime in battle.

So yes. It is important to consider all of that and not just look at the burst capability.

 

And don't you ever look down on people defending empty nodes. Nothing's worse than losing a node that is not defended, because the defender wants to get some kills too.

 

I'm not sure if you are just uneducated or are trolling me at this point...

 

I'm not "defining my own math", I'm giving a pretty clear example of a real world analogy in an attempt to help you understand why you are incorrect. You need to use the correct terminology in order to engage in intelligent debate. I have explained how to use the terminology correctly and you are insisting that I am wrong while everyone else is clearly agreeing with me. That means that even if I was wrong, everyone else is also wrong so you would need to start being wrong in order for everyone else to understand what you are trying to say.

 

DPS is a measure of damage per second while doing damage. Average DPS is a useless stat derived from your method of taking the arbitrary length of the match and dividing the useless damage done value by it. This is a completely useless stat since it relies upon the completely useless damage done stat and the completely useless length of time value.

[Hatham]

I have a 50 operative and a 50 tank assassin. If you really think tanks having a large amount of damage up on the scoreboard indicates that they're overpowered you're wrong. My Operative kills things much, much faster than my sin. My operative dies much, much faster than my sin. My operative will kill things quickly and die quickly (not doing much total damage) while my sin will survive for a long time and kill less quickly (doing plenty of total damage due to wither.) The key is to combine these classes using guard, and to have a healer at your back. This is how it should be.

 

Also to the sniper/gunslinger who was complaining about sins: You need to learn what to look for so you don't waste your CC. If a sin turns silver or a shadow turns kinda golden yellow, use white damage attacks. If they force lightning, use a knockback or a stun. Fighting a good gunslinger/sniper is one of my tougher fights, it's just that you need to understand when not to waste your CC. I know when to save my stuns against you, so you better know when to save yours against me.

[Semitote]

I have a 50 operative and a 50 tank assassin. If you really think tanks having a large amount of damage up on the scoreboard indicates that they're overpowered you're wrong. My Operative kills things much, much faster than my sin. My operative dies much, much faster than my sin. My operative will kill things quickly and die quickly (not doing much total damage) while my sin will survive for a long time and kill less quickly (doing plenty of total damage due to wither.) The key is to combine these classes using guard, and to have a healer at your back. This is how it should be.

 

Also to the sniper/gunslinger who was complaining about sins: You need to learn what to look for so you don't waste your CC. If a sin turns silver or a shadow turns kinda golden yellow, use white damage attacks. If they force lightning, use a knockback or a stun. Fighting a good gunslinger/sniper is one of my tougher fights, it's just that you need to understand when not to waste your CC. I know when to save my stuns against you, so you better know when to save yours against me.

 

Try playing a Juggernaut that's immortal spec'd and tell me Assassin tanks aren't doing entirely too much damage.

[Garibaldi_Scipio]

DPS equals Damage Per Second. period.

DPS does not equal Damage Per Second while fighting.

 

If a match lasted 15 seconds, you would see that perhaps most DPS focused classes would probably do more damage in those 15 seconds than a tank class would. But the match lasts for 15 minutes. Therefore, if a tank does 500k damage and a DPS class does 100k, well, then the tank did more DPS FOR THE MATCH than the DPS class.

 

By your reasoning, only the actual fighting counts, but that's not correct. Lets say the match lasted 15 seconds but during those 15 seconds the DPS class was stunned for 6 seconds. Lets say that the Tank was not stunned and did more damage than the DPS class. The tank ends the match doing more Damage Per Second than the DPS class did. Or should we not count the time that the DPS class was stunned???

 

There are many factors, but I think the original poster was saying that Tank classes do more DPS than DPS classes do... and this is sometimes true in Warzones.

 

In theory, a DPS class does more DPS, but again, in practice (warzones) it turns out that Tank classes can do more DPS. Or more accurately, the tanks do more damage per warzone, which in effect is saying damage over a period of time.... which is once again damage per second when you get down to it.

 

Again, more DPS, does not necessarily mean that one class is better than another. I have seen plenty of Warzone screens showing the highest DPS on the loosing side.

 

I suppose the question would be that if you had a group of tanks vs a group of DPS classes, who would win?

[Sholagar]

DPS tanks to as much or more damage in WZ then pure dps. The main reason is that they still have several tank abilities and some natural defense and can sill out dps a dps class. this might not be much but a well played dps tank is better in so many ways to pure. Why be a pure dps.

 

 

All you trolls that want to explain this as ae vr single target and all kinds of other bs I run with dps tanks that hit 500k damage regularly.

 

You are just out and out wrong.... and let me tell you why.

 

 

Tanks may in fact end up doing more damage over the course of a WZ, because they'll tend to stay alive longer and will be guarding a healer (thus benefiting from heals more often).

 

But they are not bursting anywhere NEAR what a pure DPS class/spec can. Any decent dps spec is going to see alot more killing blows than any tank ever will.... and burst is king in PvP as it always has been. If WZs actually tracked number of killing blows, you would probably not see tanks at the top of the heap.

 

You can populate your whole team with healers and guarding tanks, and run around doing tons of damage to the other side and taking and healing tons of damage, yet no one ends up dying. OR, you can do what any decent team does and throw some pure dps in there instead of all tanks, and actually be able to FINISH your kills.

 

I've played a sentinel and a vanguard at 50.... and actually I've always managed to do similar total amounts of dps in each warzone (maybe consistently 25% more dps on the sentinel), but when I have a really good game, Sentinel dps numbers just soar to where a vanguard can never reach.

 

However, my sentinel is ten times more burst capable than the vanguard.

 

SO, if you really think that tanks do the same dps as a pure dps class, go try it sometime. There's a big difference between TOTAL damage done in a match, and damage done to a single target in a short amount of time.

 

BURST

[Froteus]

Oh look dps upset that tanks are viable in pvp for once in an MMO.

 

Oh and you play with terrible dps.

 

 

To the nerf herding idiots posting screenshots of scoreboards: if you think hat is indicative of actual performance in a WZ you are not only a baddie, you'll never actually get skilled. Sorry, thems the breaks.

[Darth_Philar]

DPS equals Damage Per Second. period.

DPS does not equal Damage Per Second while fighting.

 

If a match lasted 15 seconds, you would see that perhaps most DPS focused classes would probably do more damage in those 15 seconds than a tank class would. But the match lasts for 15 minutes. Therefore, if a tank does 500k damage and a DPS class does 100k, well, then the tank did more DPS FOR THE MATCH than the DPS class.

 

By your reasoning, only the actual fighting counts, but that's not correct. Lets say the match lasted 15 seconds but during those 15 seconds the DPS class was stunned for 6 seconds. Lets say that the Tank was not stunned and did more damage than the DPS class. The tank ends the match doing more Damage Per Second than the DPS class did. Or should we not count the time that the DPS class was stunned???

 

There are many factors, but I think the original poster was saying that Tank classes do more DPS than DPS classes do... and this is sometimes true in Warzones.

 

In theory, a DPS class does more DPS, but again, in practice (warzones) it turns out that Tank classes can do more DPS. Or more accurately, the tanks do more damage per warzone, which in effect is saying damage over a period of time.... which is once again damage per second when you get down to it.

 

Again, more DPS, does not necessarily mean that one class is better than another. I have seen plenty of Warzone screens showing the highest DPS on the loosing side.

 

I suppose the question would be that if you had a group of tanks vs a group of DPS classes, who would win?

 

So you are asserting that a Ferrari can only drive 14 MPH?

That is factually incorrect.

 

DPS is a measure of what a class can do while damaging. It is not Total Damage / Total Time it is a measure of Damage / Time Spent Damaging.