Healers are the TRUE tanks in warzones?

[Tathais]

So you lasted 20 seconds while 5 players attacked you?

 

And of course there's nothing op about that at all...nothing whatsoever.

 

Instead it's highly likely that every single one of these 5 were complete and utter noobs who didn't have a clue and all just need to L2P.

 

Can't wait for 1.2.

 

I think your sarcasm overwhelmed itself.

 

Two DPS who what they're doing will kill a healer every time. There's more than enough interrupts and raw damage in there to get the job done. Five people shouldn't even need to interrupt to kill a healer. If they couldn't, clearly they weren't doing a very good job of doing damage.

 

The bottom line is, healing and dps is a balancing act. Many DPS feel like they should be able to solo a healer no problem, but what would be the point of healing? DPS negates healing and healing negates DPS. Past that, it's a numbers and decisions game. Two DPS focusing one healer wins. A DPS against no heals wins. A DPS against a healer -- stalemate... at least, it's a stalemate as long as the healer's resource holds out.

 

1.2 is going to nerf healing... there's a fair chance it will nerf it too much. If so, people will simply stop playing healers and DPS will start wondering why they're dying so quickly.

 

Healing is a thankless task...

[Zintair]

I always figured Tanks had the thankless task.

 

Healers always get the glory while they ride on our (tanks) coattails.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Zintair

[XElementalX]

Everyone playing MMO-PvP sooner or later learns the rule "First kill the healers".

 

There is one way to let tanks tank in Warzones despite of that.

 

Just let them protect other players - healers in most cases - with some kind of "shield" that makes it necessary to kill the tank before trying to take down the player he protects.

 

Let´s say a shield that diverts about ..50 % of all damage from protected to protector.

 

 

 

There is just one little thing that such a design requires to work: players who are not too dumb to continue pumping damage into these healers without ever learning something from it and who cry for nerfs instead of simply *going for the tanks first*.

 

 

But hey....Bioware is not using my "revolutionary idea", so why even bother mentioning it?

Edited April 4, 2012 by XElementalX

[Tathais]

I always figured Tanks had the thankless task.

 

Healers always get the glory while they ride on our (tanks) coattails.

 

Tanks get a lot of glory haha, at least in terms of medals. My tank friend always gets 8+ medals 'cause he gets guard points for free while doing damage. My pure healing usually gets me 3-4 at best, so I throw out some token DPS to make sure I get the 4th. No medals for interrupts an CC, sadly.

 

But I get what you mean... and I hug my tank every time I get focus fired and guard is lit up Perhaps we can we agree that pretty much any support role is a thankless task?

[dannomite]

If you're not nuking a healer, they're probably being guarded/you being taunted by a tank. A healer alone is pretty squishy, but a guarded healer is a brick wall.

[Achromatis]

One of the well know basic strategies is "Kill the healer"

 

But the real job of a tank is to redirect damage away from their team, getting "aggro" is just a way to accomplish that.

[Zintair]

Tanks get a lot of glory haha, at least in terms of medals. My tank friend always gets 8+ medals 'cause he gets guard points for free while doing damage. My pure healing usually gets me 3-4 at best, so I throw out some token DPS to make sure I get the 4th. No medals for interrupts an CC, sadly.

 

But I get what you mean... and I hug my tank every time I get focus fired and guard is lit up Perhaps we can we agree that pretty much any support role is a thankless task?

 

Yeah pretty much this haha

[EduardoJN]

Let me take a wild guess...you're a healer perhaps?

 

Fine, don't nerf healing...boost dps then.

 

Regardless, IMO there's currently an imbalance between healing capabilities and dps in PvP.

 

Youre doing it wrong.

 

I have a healer and honestly, theres no need for nerf.

 

Besides cc and interrupt, what gives healing/dps a boost on pvp in this game is expertise.

 

If the guy has a huge amount of expertise, u can bet he will heal like Jesus.

 

An that got nothing to do will healing vs dps, which is fine by the way.

 

Nerf too much healing and the healers will simply quit and pick a dps spec, and this game soon will be full of tanks like sins and shadows.

[Varicite]

Tanks get a lot of glory haha, at least in terms of medals. My tank friend always gets 8+ medals 'cause he gets guard points for free while doing damage. My pure healing usually gets me 3-4 at best, so I throw out some token DPS to make sure I get the 4th. No medals for interrupts an CC, sadly.

 

But I get what you mean... and I hug my tank every time I get focus fired and guard is lit up Perhaps we can we agree that pretty much any support role is a thankless task?

 

Before my fiance picked up her Jug tank, I never even looked at the Protection stat on the scoreboard as a DPS.

 

I don't vote MVP usually though (and by don't vote, I mean I vote for my fiance usually), so what I think of how people did doesn't really matter in WZs.

 

If they stand out, though, I will send them a whisper and tell them I think they did an awesome job.

[WaywardOne]

My ideal MMO has 0 heals. When my team wins because we had (more) heals than the opposition I do not feel like my skills or my character's build/gear were much of a factor unless i'm one of the healers. Even when i win matches by outmaneuvering a team with more heals, the "victories" are hollow because, invariably, we will have fewer kills and more deaths. Heals have nothing to do with star wars or fantasy fiction. It's another of those "wow did it" so its the only way to make a mmo and here we are. Last night i had a quick match that i entered late on, i did 80k dmg, was 4 on the damage chart with 1 kill (not my kb). I've been in a game where i've done almost 500k damage (mostly single target) and had 2kbs with 7 kills total. If that sort of thing becomes a norm, most remaining pvp enthusiasts will leave.

 

Healers are the tanks of pvp. They're the ones that need to be targeted first and it takes the most damage to kill them. With heals on a healer they are indestructible - nevermind guard. And while a healer can't do much damage, i'm not aware of one that can't casually do more damage than most dps specs can heal.

[Navaris]

I once hammer shot a sniper to death while healing myself after they grabbed the heal power up in huttball... Think we can all agree that wasn't OP but a L2P issue for the sniper.

[Varicite]

My ideal MMO has 0 heals. When my team wins because we had (more) heals than the opposition I do not feel like my skills or my character's build/gear were much of a factor unless i'm one of the healers. Even when i win matches by outmaneuvering a team with more heals, the "victories" are hollow because, invariably, we will have fewer kills and more deaths. Heals have nothing to do with star wars or fantasy fiction. It's another of those "wow did it" so its the only way to make a mmo and here we are. Last night i had a quick match that i entered late on, i did 80k dmg, was 4 on the damage chart with 1 kill (not my kb). I've been in a game where i've done almost 500k damage (mostly single target) and had 2kbs with 7 kills total. If that sort of thing becomes a norm, most remaining pvp enthusiasts will leave.

 

Healers are the tanks of pvp. They're the ones that need to be targeted first and it takes the most damage to kill them. With heals on a healer they are indestructible - nevermind guard. And while a healer can't do much damage, i'm not aware of one that can't casually do more damage than most dps specs can heal.

 

WoW didn't invent healing in MMOs. <.<

 

I don't think there has been a single successful western MMO that has strayed from the holy trinity of tank/healer/dps. It's an age-old RPG standard.

 

It's natural to try to fit the standard RPG roles into PvP in a RPG.

[Ahhmyface]

Healers are the true tanks. But they shouldn't be.

 

It actually does take 3 dps to kill a commando healer with all his CDs up.

It takes 2 for the other 2 healers.

 

By this logic 8 healer teams require 16 man dps teams to defeat, which is precisely why you see healer-heavy teams dominating warzones. It's not that healing is overpowered, it's the ability of the healer to tank. Nobody is going to complain that 2 dps can't take down a target while his buddy is spam healing him. Not once have I heard a complaint about a 3rd party healer healing too much. The difference in the two scenarios is that one healer is free-casting. 2 dps spamming interrupts and stuns and snares and knockbacks and god knows what else should absolutely destroy the ability to cast. And yet, it doesn't. Somehow, the healer just spams his heal rotation until the end of time. His cast-knockback doesnt go far enough, interrupts don't work well enough, and his resolve builds too quickly, and he heals himself for too much.

 

Self-healing absolutely has to go. I play the squishiest class in the game. I use my tools (many of the same ones that sorc/sages get, might I add) to protect myself. I have to play carefully, be smart about my abilities, and my positioning, as well rely on others to protect me. I do just fine. So why can't a healer do the same?

 

They can, and they will, in 1.2. We will see how balance works out. If it's still not enough they need to do one of several things.

 

1. Increase cast-knockback

2. Add heal debuffs to pure dps classes

3. Make 1-2 of the healer's heals ally only (not self)

4. Improve interrupt mechanics

 

And for the love of god, spare me the "nobody would play healers unless they are uber-leet 1v1 tanks". L2P.

[Kuvox]

Its not that healing is OP, it is the majority of the PvPers in the game fail terribly. I can harass healers in my heal spec, yet a dps cant kill/harass one. Not sure what the problem is.

 

This!! Healers learn very quickly who the good and bad players are on the opposing side.

 

I am full BM and there are a few good DPS players who without anyone's help can bring me down extremely fast, even with guard on. Then there are others who, rather than mimic what their successful peers do, come on the forums and call for a nerf because they don't know how to play their class.

 

Last night a group of 3 Sentinels in RvR Huttball, who have decent interrupts mind you, let me throw down every single heal I have over and over without a single interrupt. 5 minutes later in Voidstar ONE very good Marauder was able to stop at least 50% of all of my heals and killed me at least 10 times.

 

Bioware is nerfing healing because most players aren't good and they don't want to lose subscriptions; it has nothing to do with whether or not they agree with the need for the nerf. Come 1.2 that lone Marauder who already makes my life miserable is going to be having a blast.

[flem]

Bioware is nerfing healing

Incorrect. Despite some burst heal nerfs, geared healers of all classes are getting 10+% (actually closer to 15% I believe) increased PvP thoroughput from the expertise cap lift.

Edited April 4, 2012 by flem

[Varicite]

It actually does take 3 dps to kill a commando healer with all his CDs up.

It takes 2 for the other 2 healers.

 

It only takes 3 DPS to kill a commando for 12 seconds every 2 minutes. Other than that, they will die just like any other healer.

 

Healing by itself isn't overpowered. I'll say it again:

 

ONE HEALER is not overpowered.

 

It's when you have multiple healers cross-healing eachother that it becomes too strong; most DPS classes can kill a healer 1v1, or at least interrupt them from healing their team indefinitely. I find that healer vs dps is a very balanced fight in this regard.

 

It's in a situation where you have more than one healer that things become hectic. DPS might not know who to focus, or when, or become sloppy w/ interrupts, etc. A single missed heal in a multi-healer situation means that all of your hard work just went down the drain and you have to start over. Multiple healers in an uncoordinated pug? Yeah, that's an enemy team that's not going to be dying.

 

I don't know how to solve this issue, but I don't think that nerfing healing on an individual basis is the answer. As I said, I feel that they are very balanced in most 1v1 situations.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Varicite

[Kennaye]

I agree with you Stenrik. I often find myself playing the role of tank even when it's not intended. I like the idea of using my high profile as a healer to kite away the enemy. I'll keep this in mind next time I'm in a WZ. cheers

 

Kennaye

[Varicite]

I agree with you Stenrik. I often find myself playing the role of tank even when it's not intended. I like the idea of using my high profile as a healer to kite away the enemy. I'll keep this in mind next time I'm in a WZ. cheers

 

Kennaye

 

It works even better if you're a fresh 50 w/ under 14k hp. You don't even need a heal button, tunnel-visioning DPS will chase you across the entire map just to see a 5k+ crit.

 

I use this knowledge to my advantage whenever I get a new character to 50. It's always funny to watch your team plant on the first door because the enemies are too busy chasing you in a circle around the little shuttles by the spawn area.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Varicite

[Reenolols]

Healers are not overpowered in any way. It's 100% how bad most dps are in this game. A pro healer can fend off 1-2 good dps while giving minimal heals to their team. And they can stay alive through 3-5 bad dps through los, kiting, and cc. Being with dps, tanks, and other heals that peel and cc for you will make a good healer unkillable unless against another group doing the same. Just as it should be. Edited April 4, 2012 by Reenolols

[tuxiewuxie]

yes good healers are the true tanks in warzones, trying to kill a couple of these spamming their heals on each other alone results in getting the 300k dps medal in the first round of voidstar

[Varicite]

yes good healers are the true tanks in warzones, trying to kill a couple of these spamming their heals on each other alone results in getting the 300k dps medal in the first round of voidstar

 

I actually got the 300k dps medal in the first round of Voidstar in a 1v1 fight w/ a Commando healer.

 

He engaged me by the bridge in the second room as I spawned, and our teams had run ahead. I decided to fight him and see how I'd do.

 

After almost 10 mins, I finally said "...maybe we should go help our teammates". We laughed and he said "Yeah, prolly". There was no way that either of us was going to kill the other, but oh how we tried!

 

2 seconds later the round ended because his team got to the datacore. :c

Edited April 4, 2012 by Varicite

[JediDuckling]

Depends on how you define a tank. In the PVE context, a tank gets the enemy to attack them, instead of their teammates.

 

I feel this often happens to healers in warzones, as more than one dps often focuses them. By running, ccing, and healing themselves, a good healer can kite these players away from an objective just as a PVE tank would kite a boss.

 

Actual tank classes in warzones are more of debuff classes, and proactive healers in their own way with Guard. But they really don't seem to draw much "aggro." I mean, as a dps, would you go after someone decked in heavy armor, or someone squishy?

The only time I would really classify an actual tank class as a warzone tank by this definition is when I'm healing one, and purposefully keeping him at 30% HP, just so that the enemy dps keeps battering away at him hoping for an easy kill. (Many dps just look for whoever has the lowest hp, regardless of gear or class.)

 

I'm not saying tanks aren't useful in PVP. I love being in a group with a good one, especially when it comes to defending objectives!

I'm just wondering if anyone shares my perspective on this role healers can take in warzones. Also, I heard someone say once that it's "selfish" for healers to be healing themselves all the time in warzones. I say, if they're being focused and taking the enemy's mind off of other players, it's just as useful as healing said players. Heck, when I'm dps, I admit I tend to get tunnel vision trying to take down a healer who just won't die.

 

If anyone here thinks there's something wrong with healers keeping themselves alive (as in, healing themselves as much as or more than the rest of the group due to being focused) please tell me your reasoning.

 

erm you do realise a healer can heal himself right ? interupting and stunning a healer and you will see how squishy they are. you complaining about the soul purpose of a healer they dont just heal others you know they can heal themselves. if you notice healers take massive damage and have to use all there cd's and heal spam themselves to stay alive.

 

and they are not true tanks in pvp at all if they try and tank they will die fast.the only reason you think they are tanks is you was proberly against a team of nothing but healers and they had healers healing healers healing healers lol

[Kuvox]

Healers are the true tanks. But they shouldn't be.

 

It actually does take 3 dps to kill a commando healer with all his CDs up.

It takes 2 for the other 2 healers.

 

This may be what's normal but it certainly doesn't reflect what's currently achievable.

 

As I mentioned in an earlier post, there are some players who take me out extremely fast by themselves, even with guard on, and then there are others (and granted, they are the majority) who are as equally geared, or even better, AND the same class and absolutely must have help to bring me down. I play a lot and see this every single night.

[WaywardOne]

<<

WoW didn't invent healing in MMOs. <.<

 

I don't think there has been a single successful western MMO that has strayed from the holy trinity of tank/healer/dps. It's an age-old RPG standard.

 

It's natural to try to fit the standard RPG roles into PvP in a RPG.

>>

 

Wow mushroomed it and Wow copied EQ1's core which was loosely based on D&D (in which heals did not resemble what we have now). EQ1 healers were not pvp demi-gods if I remember right (I didn't play that much). There have been a couple relatively successful MMOs - CoV, UO, AC1 that didn't have mandatory, focused healbar-watchers (AC1 had a heal set but everyone could and did get it and damage/defense/buffs ruled that game; UO had healers but the mechanics were different). I've played a few text-based games without Wow-styled-healers that are still out there making money even. GW2, no trinity; that's the only reason I'm even looking at playing that.

 

For every successful MMO with the trinity I can name a dozen that failed with the trinity. I can't think of any successful (team-based combat) pc/video games outside of rps/MMOs with a focused healer mechanic. People would laugh if someone tried to suggest it for CoD or Mechwarrior. It perplexes me that they aren't laughing at heal guns in this Star Wars game. I'm pretty sure that only 5 or 6 people would play a healer in the Kotor rpg if that was an option (unless the healer was god-mode).

 

I could go on but this is way off-topic. SWTOR is stuck with healers. But they should be toned down more in pvp, whether they are "killable" or not. I know there's a mantra that says a healer should be able to heal as much damage as any dps can do but I submit that should only be the case if the dps can also heal as much as any healer can dps and that definitely is not the case now.

[Varicite]

<<

WoW didn't invent healing in MMOs. <.<

 

I don't think there has been a single successful western MMO that has strayed from the holy trinity of tank/healer/dps. It's an age-old RPG standard.

 

It's natural to try to fit the standard RPG roles into PvP in a RPG.

>>

 

Wow mushroomed it and Wow copied EQ1's core which was loosely based on D&D (in which heals did not resemble what we have now). EQ1 healers were not pvp demi-gods if I remember right (I didn't play that much). There have been a couple relatively successful MMOs - CoV, UO, AC1 that didn't have mandatory, focused healbar-watchers (AC1 had a heal set but everyone could and did get it and damage/defense/buffs ruled that game; UO had healers but the mechanics were different). I've played a few text-based games without Wow-styled-healers that are still out there making money even. GW2, no trinity; that's the only reason I'm even looking at playing that.

 

For every successful MMO with the trinity I can name a dozen that failed with the trinity. I can't think of any successful (team-based combat) pc/video games outside of rps/MMOs with a focused healer mechanic. People would laugh if someone tried to suggest it for CoD or Mechwarrior. It perplexes me that they aren't laughing at heal guns in this Star Wars game. I'm pretty sure that only 5 or 6 people would play a healer in the Kotor rpg if that was an option (unless the healer was god-mode).

 

I could go on but this is way off-topic. SWTOR is stuck with healers. But they should be toned down more in pvp, whether they are "killable" or not. I know there's a mantra that says a healer should be able to heal as much damage as any dps can do but I submit that should only be the case if the dps can also heal as much as any healer can dps and that definitely is not the case now.

 

Team Fortress uses Medics. I'm pretty sure there are others also, but I'm not a huge fan of FPS games.

 

Healers are a staple in most RPGs. This is a RPG, not a FPS. It's not Mechwarrior or CoD. It's Dungeons & Dragons in space.

 

It has healers, and those healers want to PvP like everyone else. And you're right, arguing about them doing well won't make them go away.

 

Your last paragraph seems like a step toward homogenization, which is pretty much the exact opposite of the very nature of a RPG. Let's look at that word, shall we? ROLE-playing Game. If we can all heal, then healers don't need that role. If they can dps like us, then we don't need our role. If tanks can heal and dps, they don't need any of us.

 

Then, I imagine, it's just a G, w/out any of the RP at all. We have games like those already; we call them FPS games.

 

That's not what I paid for when I bought SWTOR, though.