So after leveling a Scoundrel and Op to 50... my thoughts on the state of the class

[hulkweazel]

whats the difference playstyle wise between op and scoundrel

 

considering you said you played both,im thinkin about rollin a scrapper scoundrel cuz i like the look of there gear better then i do operative but was just wonderin

 

i mean,is it generally the same only instead of using a knife like operatives do your using a shotgun and punching people

They are mirror classes. Scrapper uses blaster pistol and scattergun (Shotgun) and Op uses blaster rifle and vibroknife. Scrapper shoots people in the back while Op stabs people.

 

There are slight differences in animations, only one that really affects gameplay is you can't move while using Scoundrel's Dirty Kick (Debilitate for Op) but this is getting fixed in 1.2. Only reason to choose one over the other is flavor/story reasons or if you want to play pub or imp.

 

Personally I liked the Operative story better, but I think Scoundrels are much cooler and have way more flavor (It does have the Han Solo thing going for it).

[Mrunlimited]

typically, everyones argument on this subject is pinning assassins against operatives.

 

everyone looks at how an assassin can do good damage, while having tons of utility and defensive cool downs.. mean while if we get knocked off of a ledge in huttball were for the most part totally screwed until we run in range of someone again.

 

every melee class in the game has a jump to, speed to, pull to ability(sins, marauders, juggs, powertechs) and the argument agianst operatives is "well dont you have 30M range abilities?" well im pretty sure marauders/juggs/assasins all have the ability to attack at 30M range IE saber throws using the buff to grant lightening 30m range for sins. im not stating that its even, im just stating its there.. but our ability to make viable 30m range damage is just about as viable as the rest of the melee

 

WHAT IF, bioware actually fixed knock backs? like you know they correctly knock you in the correct direction? im not sure about other ops, but when im on a ledge in huttball and i get on someone with a knock back, you best believe soon as ive dropped HS/BS ive already been lined up to not get knocked off.

 

this works for nearly every knock back in the game EXCEPT the sorc/assassin aoe knock back, this thing is BROKEN.. ive been running the ball in and the sorc aoe knock back BEHIND me and it knock me off, and i think this is partially because the game executes the knock back when they hit the button rather than slamming the ground..

 

i could keep going but class is over

[CrunkShizzle]

ya ive heard the assassin vs operative argument before

 

and i know there mobility is crap.but playstyle wise it just looks like id enjoy operative/scoundrel better

[thecoffeeguy]

I first leveled up an Op to 50, loved it enough to do it again Republic side. I've done full medicine spec, full concealment, and hybrid med/concealment. Never tried Lethality though I may give it a shot after 1.2.

 

- I don't think this class is broken. I think there are a LOT of poor design choices by the devs, and I honestly don't think they really playtested a lot of things (ie. two broken talents at launch, set bonuses that are relatively useless, alacrity on healing equipment, to name a few) but despite this, for the most part, the class is okay. It is far and away better than what Druids suffered in vanilla WoW.

 

- Concealment Ops that did well pre-1.2 will probably still do well post-1.2. Concealment Ops that did not do well pre 1-2 will still struggle, maybe even moreso. I can't say for certain about the changes because I haven't tested it outmyself. However, the changes still boggle my mind. I'm really not sure what they were trying to do with the changes, it's all over the place.

 

What I think hurts the most is the 7.5 cooldown on HS and 12 sec cooldown on BS. After unstealthing, it takes 5 seconds to restealth (Outside of CS or Infiltration). Concealment Ops like to BS, finish off target, and then stealth, going after next target. 7.5 sec cooldown means there's a 2.5 second additional wait. This is a problem, as it makes killing much slower - approx. 50% increase in time to HS. In my opinion the cooldown should be 5 or 6 seconds.

 

- People are forgetting that the fix to Cover will help tremendously. If we get immobilized by a Sorc or Sniper's knockback we no longer have to just stand there looking like an idiot, we can now use that time to fire off Explosive Probe.

 

- As for a gap closer, the main problem isn't that, actually. The main problem is Huttball. Take Huttball out of the equation and half the complaints will be gone. If Ops perform well in all WZs except one, then I'm fine with that. However, Huttball is the predominant WZ on Imp side. Thankfully, this will change 1.2. As I leveled up my Scoundrel, I rarely ever got Huttball, which made it a LOT easier.

 

- More on the gap closer... I believe what BW's intentions were was to have Ops have some ranged abilities, as well as a few passive speed increases to compensate for a lack of a gap closer. I'm fine with this, IF it were implemented better. Right now, we get a 15% passive combat speed increase, a 50% increase after CS, a 30% increase after Debilitate, and a 20% increase after Evasion, from various different talents. The 50% increase after CS is nice, but it's designed more of a getaway than a gap closer, though in rare instances it can be used as such. The 30% increase after Debilitate doesn't make much sense to me. You can only use it within 4m of a target, and it stuns them, meaning you generally don't need the speed increase. I have never talented into Evasive Imperative, since 20% speed increase for 3 seconds every minute (While using up our self cleanser) doesn't seem very appealing, and also, from what I've heard, it doesn't stack with Infiltrate.

 

What needs to be done is Evasive Imperative and Slip Away need to be changed. Put the movement speed increase on Sever Tendon instead, for example, would be much, much more appealing and effective. Give the speed increase on Evasion AND Shield probe would be another change. I don't think either change would be overpowering.

 

- Healing is fine, for the most part. I never have a problem with mana regeneration, even in healing intensive moments, and the main problems I have with the healing tree are being addressed in 1.2 (RN being frontloaded, keeping TA up for emergencies). Time will tell if the easier TA management will make Infusion a little more worth using. If I did have one complaint, it's that the healing rotation is too simple. KP x2, KI, SP, keep Stim Boost up, repeat. Many times, it's just alternating between KI and SP.

 

- Our biggest issue, IMO, is survivability. CS and Shield Probe are not good enough. Flash Bang is inconsistent (Doesn't work if opponent has full resolve or is being attacked). Evasion is useless since it only works against white damage. A change not often talked about is Countermeasures, possibly making it work somewhat in PvP. Medicine Op survivability is greatly exaggerated. Yes, we can roll HOTs and spam SPs under 30% hp, but a good player/team will focus fire when you're under 30% and/or stunlock you.

 

- DPS Operatives still need some form of utility in PvE. Right now, no one wants a DPS Op since we are a melee class with not much survivability or gap closer. Only thing we have going is stealth res, but DPS assassins can do that as well. One proposed addition is for our attacks to add armor debuff on the target, which I think that alone will do wonders for an Op to be useful. Have Acid Blade and Weakening Blast apply a small armor debuff to the target, for example

 

- To sum up, I think if the following changes should be made to the class:

 

1) Move around the speed increase talents to more relevant abilities/instances

2) Change the set bonus on our gear to affect more relevant abilities

3) Reduce the cost of Overload Shot slightly to offset the Backstab nerf, and add a talent to Lethality to give it a chance to proc TA (Limit once every 10 seconds)

4) Reduce the cooldown on HS to 6 seconds

5) Move a few abilities so that they are learned at a lower level. More specifically, Hidden Strike and Shield Probe

6) Have Countermeasures decrease damage from players by 25% during its duration.

7) Acid Blade and Weakening Blast now provide an additional armor debuff to the target

 

These are all very minor changes, but I think they will do wonders to making the class up to par.

 

Very well thought out, solid post.

I pretty much agree with you and your points. However, I really dont have a problem with the added cool down to hidden strike/shoot first. However, I absolutely abhor the extra 3 seconds added to backstab/back blast.

 

I am very concerned about this patch and our sustained DPS. I am patiently waiting for data to come out from PTS (still trying to level my scoundrel on the PTS) to see what the data says.

[Hextasy]

Well... for one, it achieves getting to our targets faster... And why would commandos or mercs need a gap closer? They aren't melee. I think the problem is, almost every class (Some that have more survivability than us and I mean waaayyyyy more survivability than us) get a gap closer, and they get knock backs. We literally have to work harder for the same results. Where as, other classes do not. If an Operative doesn't put acid blade on all of their hidden strikes/back stabs, then we are pretty much screwed.

 

Granted it's amazing, but the fact we even need to press an extra button for that is ridiculous. Then the only way we can even use it is by being behind our opponent. That's to say, we don't get pushed back or leaped on before we get there. The only thing we really have going for us is the stealth factor, and we can pop a heal if need be, but that never goes well in a middle of a fight.

 

We can also vanish, which is amazing! But, i've noticed, i use it more as an escape than an offensive manuever. And half the time, it doesn't even help lol.

Yeah regarding acid blade I'd be OK with as-is if we could keybind it together with HS/BS but we cannot (unless using 3rd party). I don't understand why there is no stealth bar, or why HS/BS are not same spell.

 

Then again I don't get Eviscerate either. Or why half of the terms are different function in "that other game".

 

Seems like they over complicate.

[hulkweazel]

Very well thought out, solid post.

I pretty much agree with you and your points. However, I really dont have a problem with the added cool down to hidden strike/shoot first. However, I absolutely abhor the extra 3 seconds added to backstab/back blast.

 

I am very concerned about this patch and our sustained DPS. I am patiently waiting for data to come out from PTS (still trying to level my scoundrel on the PTS) to see what the data says.

Ever try picking people off in a large battle on Voidstar or Alderaan? That's where the problem with the 7.5 cooldown lies. You cannot finish someone off at under 50% health, restealth and immediately go after your next target.

 

Yes, it won't matter AS MUCH against good players that tag you and keep you out of stealth, but it still reduces killing power.

Yeah regarding acid blade I'd be OK with as-is if we could keybind it together with HS/BS but we cannot (unless using 3rd party). I don't understand why there is no stealth bar, or why HS/BS are not same spell.

 

Then again I don't get Eviscerate either. Or why half of the terms are different function in "that other game".

 

Seems like they over complicate.

Yeah, there is a lot of fluff in our abilities that make our rotation seem a lot more complicated than it really is. The difficulty of playing a Concealment Op isn't from the rotation though, it's in knowing what targets to go after and when - going for the wrong target will screw you over much worse than other classes because of how it is designed.

 

Eviscerate is just an ability meant to make solo questing easier. Every class gets abilities similar to this. It's particularly useful for non-DPS specced classes as they have an additional high damage ability that they can use.

[Apokelypse]

It truly baffles me when people have such tunnel vision that if something doesn't fit what they want, they just completely disregard it.

 

Operatives have ranged abilities. Operatives also have movement speed increases. If someone is moving at 100% speed and you are moving towards them at 130% speed, are you not closing the gap on them? Do you not have abilities that read "10m" and "30m" on them?

 

My proposition fixes the so-called "gap closer" issue, and it also fixes many of the other issues with the class as well (That are really just as important, if not more so), in a way that is fair, not overpowering, and simple enough that BW might actually implement. Just because it isn't Shadowstep or Force Speed doesn't make it wrong.

 

I'd be happy with a movement speed increase under certain conditions to close the gap instead of a charge/leap type move. My concern with the sever tendon suggestion for this is that it will likely not work on bosses in pve. Encounters that knock melee back do exist and will likely continue to be used in pve. The ones that knock you back and slow your movement are crippling for a conceal operative. It would be cool if you could just use sever tendon and have it give the proposed move speed burst long enough to get back into melee and drop the snare at the same time. I'd be entirely cool with that...the move speed burst would have to be long enough and enough of a speed increase to get the job done.

 

One of the points made earlier about giving TA on overload shot to lethality would also be good for conceal...there are and will always be fights where you have to run out of melee or where the boss is unreachable by melee for some reason. The current short duration on TA needs to change for that reason. I'd even go as far as to say to both increase the number of possible TA stacks and do what someone else in this thread proposed ...allow one stack of TA to fall off at a time...instead of losing you entire TA buff at once.

[Apokelypse]

force ops to heal in pve.

 

NO! I did not level my op to 50 to be told to "shut up and heal". I really did have enough of that in wow. This class is mirroring the vanilla druid so much it is making me sick. Medicine/Restoration being the only viable spec for the near future. Lethality/Balance being expected to melee for resources as a ranged spec. Concealment/Feral being the whipping boy of choice and general laughing stock of the community/development team. The only major difference I see in how concealment is being treated better than vanilla feral is that at least they bothered to make gear that works for concealment.

 

favorite GZ shorts: "teams of operatives", "agents are not inquisitors"

Edited April 5, 2012 by Apokelypse

[DarthPunitor]

The two abilities I think would be most attractive to the class while still being balanced and fair would be extending the Sever Tendon cooldown from 10 seconds to 15 seconds, but adding a 30m range and 3 second 70% speed boost. Gap closer solved.

 

best idea ive heard

[teemoor]

Gief lightknives. Then BW will immediately give us sprint, blink to target, +20% passive surge and sever tendon root now lasts 10 seconds.

[SammuelSK]

However, if we had ranged abilities that we could use on the move that hit about as hard as snipe does for ops now then we could apply pressure as we close the distance.

 

Let's put it this way:

You attack Sorc, he uses knockback. You:

a) alternate between our nade and rifle shot till you get in melee range

 

or

 

b) crouch, use probe, waste a gcd not closing on your target, then go back to a) to get in melee range

 

or

 

c) blow vanish to get away or reopen.

 

this would atleast give us a 2nd long range ability to use that would do decent damage as we approach the target. Basically throw nade, use new fangled ability, use rifle shot, and hopefully be back in range.

 

 

Also, have a gap closer isn't all everyone thinks it is. I've put quite a bit of time on mrauaders and juggs, and any decent team will stagger their knockbacks. So basically you get in melee, first person uses knockback, you use charge, second person uses knockback, you're right back where you started. It's 1/2 of why premade teams that stack sins/sorc dominate huttball so easily and defend nodes/doors so well.

 

You are assuming that the sorc is just standing there doing nothing. He's not. He has follow up abilities that are designed to prevent you from reaching him.

 

He is slowing you down, severly hampering your ability to get back in range of him. Infact, more often then not you aren't even in range to use sever tendon on him, allowing him to backpedal as you crawl your way to him.

 

Allowing for you finnally reaching him, he now has two options on how to once again lock you down. First one is a stun, remember that at this point he still has immunity from your stuns.... you on the other hand though knockback and rooted do not. Now... assuming you survived that, he can now force run away from you.

 

I use explosive probe with great success, but it is not the answer to the problem. Our basic rifle attack does nowhere near the damage we are being hit with from range, so it is also not the answer to the problem. Grenade? Cooldown is much to long to be used effectively as a ranged attack. Overload shot, does not have the range needed... not the answer to the problem either. Orbital Strike? Not bloody likely. We are designed as a quick strike, out of stealth MELEE DPS class. We are not a ranged class, because our ranged abilities are either on an extended cooldown or limited to 10 meters (aka melee range).

 

That leaves vanish. Sure, we can run away and try again when he's down to maybe 75-50% but thats a pretty ****** class design if you want concealment operatives to simply chase players down who are close to dying. Personally I don't consider vanish an offensive ability, I use it as needed and keep it in reserve for situations when I absolutely have to get a second HS in.

 

Overall, I just don't see where you are coming from with this whole, its cool we're fine mentality. Yes, I can easily destory unprepared players if I set things up correctly, and I stack everything on my side. But throw an equally geared opponent against you with half a brain... CC and knockbacks will ruin your day. Other classes hit harder then we do, have better defensive abilities and have access to enough utility to lockdown and severly cripple any op that comes up against it.

 

Also, before you ask.. I run a sniper and a merc healer as well... so I am well aware from there point of view how well/badly operatives that try to attack me perform. They are simply put, a joke.

Edited April 5, 2012 by SammuelSK

[Dcayd]

You misunderstood. I think our current ranged options suck. I'd rather see new ones or the current ones improved to give something to do at range AS we close range. Boost overcharged shot to 25m. Or an ability called quick scope Or something similar that is comparable to snipe, but with the cast or crouch req.

 

The thing is all this gap closer whine is almost exclusively tied to huttball. More often than not if I get knocked off the catwalks it's from server lag not showing player positions correctly. As soon as I open on a class with knockbacks I mover to a position that should decrease the knockback range. Even standing higher on the ramps will almost completey nullify a knockback, and sorc is the class who's player base is the lowest common denominator. The odds that the sorc you attack is good or has any common sense are usually pretty low.

 

I'm not saying the class doesn't have problems, just that the solution everyone thinks we need will just lead to another round of nerfs. Also, we are comparing a class that is a little up to a class that is blatantly op.

 

Last point: if you are easily beating ops as a sniper then you are either a god or they are absolutely terrible. Healers are a pain for all classes.

[Xavory]

My wife drives a Nissan Maxima. It's nice, runs great and has zero problems. She loves her Maxima.

 

Until she parks it between a new BMW and a new Mercedes. Then she realizes it's just a Maxima.

 

No one (with any sense) is saying the class is broken, it's just behind everyone else.

 

The guy that finishes last in a Formula One race is still going 200mph in a million dollar race car. And he is still LAST.

 

 

Instead of leveling an Op and Scoundrel and then giving your thoughts, you should have leveled an Op/Scoundrel and THEN an Assassin/Shadow. Then you would see that your Maxima isn't so sexy.....

[hulkweazel]

My wife drives a Nissan Maxima. It's nice, runs great and has zero problems. She loves her Maxima.

 

Until she parks it between a new BMW and a new Mercedes. Then she realizes it's just a Maxima.

 

No one (with any sense) is saying the class is broken, it's just behind everyone else.

 

The guy that finishes last in a Formula One race is still going 200mph in a million dollar race car. And he is still LAST.

 

 

Instead of leveling an Op and Scoundrel and then giving your thoughts, you should have leveled an Op/Scoundrel and THEN an Assassin/Shadow. Then you would see that your Maxima isn't so sexy.....

I did to level 24, but got extremely bored of the DS/DS/Project rotation ad nauseum. I'll probably give it another shot in the future, maybe try out tank spec instead.

 

In any case, in no way am I saying Op/Scoundrel is fine. I know that the class is underperforming, no matter what GZ thinks; I know the class lacks utility, a word I don't think GZ even understands. I have a level 50 powertech as well, so I know what it's like playing an overpowered class (Yes, PTs are overpowered). However, after playing the class for this long, I really don't think a traditional gap closer in the vein of Shadowstep or Force Speed is the answer, nor do I think it will solve all our problems.

[Trauglodyte]

CONCEALMENT/SCRAPPER

- Add "In addition, Hidden Strike/Shoot First has a 50%/100% chance to grant immunity to knock back and movement impairing effects for 4 seconds" to Concealed Attacks/Element Of Surprise - This is pointless. Newsflash we can stunlock someone for 5 seconds strait if they don't have stunbreak up... You don't need this buff and it would serve absolutely no purpose.

/5char

 

You do realize that this game isn't about 1v1, right? So, what are you supposed to do when you open up on the ball carrier in HB and his buddy knocks you back? Sure, he is on his face for a whopping 1.5s while you've now been tossed back and probably CCed to prevent you from getting back? Is your suggestion/preference that you not have this and instead have a gap closer that would inevitably still do you no good in this situation?

Edited April 5, 2012 by Trauglodyte

[KalTorrak]

I first leveled up an Op to 50, loved it enough to do it again Republic side. I've done full medicine spec, full concealment, and hybrid med/concealment. Never tried Lethality though I may give it a shot after 1.2.

 

- I don't think this class is broken. I think there are a LOT of poor design choices by the devs, and I honestly don't think they really playtested a lot of things (ie. two broken talents at launch, set bonuses that are relatively useless, alacrity on healing equipment, to name a few) but despite this, for the most part, the class is okay. It is far and away better than what Druids suffered in vanilla WoW.

 

- Concealment Ops that did well pre-1.2 will probably still do well post-1.2. Concealment Ops that did not do well pre 1-2 will still struggle, maybe even moreso. I can't say for certain about the changes because I haven't tested it outmyself. However, the changes still boggle my mind. I'm really not sure what they were trying to do with the changes, it's all over the place.

 

What I think hurts the most is the 7.5 cooldown on HS and 12 sec cooldown on BS. After unstealthing, it takes 5 seconds to restealth (Outside of CS or Infiltration). Concealment Ops like to BS, finish off target, and then stealth, going after next target. 7.5 sec cooldown means there's a 2.5 second additional wait. This is a problem, as it makes killing much slower - approx. 50% increase in time to HS. In my opinion the cooldown should be 5 or 6 seconds.

 

- People are forgetting that the fix to Cover will help tremendously. If we get immobilized by a Sorc or Sniper's knockback we no longer have to just stand there looking like an idiot, we can now use that time to fire off Explosive Probe.

 

- As for a gap closer, the main problem isn't that, actually. The main problem is Huttball. Take Huttball out of the equation and half the complaints will be gone. If Ops perform well in all WZs except one, then I'm fine with that. However, Huttball is the predominant WZ on Imp side. Thankfully, this will change 1.2. As I leveled up my Scoundrel, I rarely ever got Huttball, which made it a LOT easier.

 

- More on the gap closer... I believe what BW's intentions were was to have Ops have some ranged abilities, as well as a few passive speed increases to compensate for a lack of a gap closer. I'm fine with this, IF it were implemented better. Right now, we get a 15% passive combat speed increase, a 50% increase after CS, a 30% increase after Debilitate, and a 20% increase after Evasion, from various different talents. The 50% increase after CS is nice, but it's designed more of a getaway than a gap closer, though in rare instances it can be used as such. The 30% increase after Debilitate doesn't make much sense to me. You can only use it within 4m of a target, and it stuns them, meaning you generally don't need the speed increase. I have never talented into Evasive Imperative, since 20% speed increase for 3 seconds every minute (While using up our self cleanser) doesn't seem very appealing, and also, from what I've heard, it doesn't stack with Infiltrate.

 

What needs to be done is Evasive Imperative and Slip Away need to be changed. Put the movement speed increase on Sever Tendon instead, for example, would be much, much more appealing and effective. Give the speed increase on Evasion AND Shield probe would be another change. I don't think either change would be overpowering.

 

- Healing is fine, for the most part. I never have a problem with mana regeneration, even in healing intensive moments, and the main problems I have with the healing tree are being addressed in 1.2 (RN being frontloaded, keeping TA up for emergencies). Time will tell if the easier TA management will make Infusion a little more worth using. If I did have one complaint, it's that the healing rotation is too simple. KP x2, KI, SP, keep Stim Boost up, repeat. Many times, it's just alternating between KI and SP.

 

- Our biggest issue, IMO, is survivability. CS and Shield Probe are not good enough. Flash Bang is inconsistent (Doesn't work if opponent has full resolve or is being attacked). Evasion is useless since it only works against white damage. A change not often talked about is Countermeasures, possibly making it work somewhat in PvP. Medicine Op survivability is greatly exaggerated. Yes, we can roll HOTs and spam SPs under 30% hp, but a good player/team will focus fire when you're under 30% and/or stunlock you.

 

- DPS Operatives still need some form of utility in PvE. Right now, no one wants a DPS Op since we are a melee class with not much survivability or gap closer. Only thing we have going is stealth res, but DPS assassins can do that as well. One proposed addition is for our attacks to add armor debuff on the target, which I think that alone will do wonders for an Op to be useful. Have Acid Blade and Weakening Blast apply a small armor debuff to the target, for example

 

- To sum up, I think if the following changes should be made to the class:

 

1) Move around the speed increase talents to more relevant abilities/instances

2) Change the set bonus on our gear to affect more relevant abilities

3) Reduce the cost of Overload Shot slightly to offset the Backstab nerf, and add a talent to Lethality to give it a chance to proc TA (Limit once every 10 seconds)

4) Reduce the cooldown on HS to 6 seconds

5) Move a few abilities so that they are learned at a lower level. More specifically, Hidden Strike and Shield Probe

6) Have Countermeasures decrease damage from players by 25% during its duration.

7) Acid Blade and Weakening Blast now provide an additional armor debuff to the target

 

These are all very minor changes, but I think they will do wonders to making the class up to par.

 

Our survivability I agree is just a joke look at what we get compared to other classes, evasion, really? For a whole 4 seconds with set bonus of an extra 1 whole second! That does not even do ANYTHING against tech and force attacks, good going! Every time I pop it a mara just force jokes me or well... you get the picture with any other class no need to explain it is basically useless a lot of the time (sometimes it GREAT but yeah) compared to other classes (like full invul ***) it is garbage.

[Xavory]

I did to level 24, but got extremely bored of the DS/DS/Project rotation ad nauseum. I'll probably give it another shot in the future, maybe try out tank spec instead.

 

In any case, in no way am I saying Op/Scoundrel is fine. I know that the class is underperforming, no matter what GZ thinks; I know the class lacks utility, a word I don't think GZ even understands. I have a level 50 powertech as well, so I know what it's like playing an overpowered class (Yes, PTs are overpowered). However, after playing the class for this long, I really don't think a traditional gap closer in the vein of Shadowstep or Force Speed is the answer, nor do I think it will solve all our problems.

 

 

A gap closer would solve a huge piece of our problems. Putting Backstab back on the 9sec CD would go a long way as well.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Xavory

[Escarrabutxaques]

And what about some ability that would work as anti gap opener? 3 sec duration/1 min cd/4m range debuff you can apply on target that would prevent creating gap between an operative and his target. For example, some kind of handcuffs/chain that would link operative/scoundrel and his victim, meaning you get knocked back - your target gets knocked back with you, your target uses force speed - you go with the target with 150% speed increase, same for charges and pulls. For those 3 seconds your target just cant get further than 10m away from an operative/scoundrel. It would bring utility for teamplay in huttball, it would be quite fun ability to use, it would serve as "gap closer" in some twisted way and it would be quite unique. Yes it would require timing to be effective but also would bring some interesting mechanic in game. Edited April 6, 2012 by Escarrabutxaques

[Dcayd]

And what about some ability that would work as anti gap opener? 3 sec duration/1 min cd/4m range debuff you can apply on target that would prevent creating gap between an operative and his target. For example, some kind of handcuffs/chain that would link operative/scoundrel and his victim, meaning you get knocked back - your target gets knocked back with you, your target uses force speed - you go with the target with 150% speed increase, same for charges and pulls. For those 3 seconds your target just cant get further than 10m away from an operative/scoundrel. It would bring utility for teamplay in huttball, it would be quite fun ability to use, it would serve as "gap closer" in some twisted way and it would be quite unique. Yes it would require timing to be effective but also would bring some interesting mechanic in game.

 

Like the joke gap closer post I made? No thanks.

 

I'm probably alone in this sentiment, but I'd give up permanent stealth for 2 stealths: an ooc stealth that lasts 30s to 1m with the same cd, and an in combat stealth with a 20-30s cd that lasts 2-4s, thinking 2 standard, 4 with concealment talents. Kinda like camo for marauders, but that we could use much more often. It would require us to use stealth more tactically, but would also allow us to avoid some damage if used right.

 

Not realistically going to happen, but watching GW2 thief vids gave me the idea.

[CaptainInsano]

It seems like people are arguing in circles to avoid giving Ops a gap closer. Sure they can redesign the class and spend untold time and resources or...they can just add a gap closer in the meantime. Shadowstep or "teleportation" is a proven ability from many other MMOs that doesn't exist in this one and would be prime for Ops. Operatives are a disjointed class with conflicting design goals and some clunky mechanics. We really need a dev or two devoted to understanding the issues of this class and fine-tuning it, because right now the Op class feels like a rush job without a coherent vision behind it. You can't tell me a class that supposedly needed two major nerfs within 3 months of launch was well designed.

[vimm]

Your Sever Tendon suggestion feels way too powerful. It's basically a better Force Speed (30 sec cooldown, 2 second +50% speed) that only requires an enemy target and talents. As I said in my post, Ops don't get "gap closers", just smaller speed increases at a more frequent rate. If the Slip Away movement speed is simply moved to Tendon Blast, (Possibly increasing cooldown and range on it as well) I think that alone is fine.

 

Reducing heals done on a target is a good idea. It will definitely make DPS Ops stronger in group/ranked PvP, though it will have little effect on PvE.

 

Force Speed is 150%, not 50%