You win, I give up on my Juggernaut.

[Schwarzwald]

Jugs have the most flexibility AND mobility out of the other tank classes.

 

Jug is the only class as far as I know, that has a playstyle that can play both burst and protection roles on an above average basis, that being going into Rage and playing as Soresu. Being able to put out 300k+ damage while doing 100k-200k protection is kinda nuts if you ask me.

 

force pull

force shroud

force speed

2 single target stuns (1 long range)

aoe knockback

takes less passive dmg from force and tech ability's

higher passive endurance

higher stealth detection

defensive cooldowns on a shorter cooldown

selfhealing

 

They don't have 2 stuns. They have an incapacitate and a stun, and there is a huge difference between the two.

 

If you spec up into backhand, juggernauts had 2 stuns and an aoe incapacitate.

 

 

* Heavy armor doesnt do much

 

Yes it does. If you are against Rage Jugs, the damage is kinetic. Me hitting someone in heavy armor makes the difference between smashing them for 7k with cooldowns used and only hitting them for 5k with cooldowns used.

 

 

* Tank class, but similar health to other classes

 

The class has other aspects that keep it alive. Mobility, ability to ignore most barriers and gaps, etc.

 

 

* cooldowns are really bad on defensive talents

 

I wouldn't say they are bad. Manage them properly and use defensive cooldowns only when more then 2+ people are attacking you when you don't have a healer with you. And honestly, shortening the cooldown of invincible would become OP and they would have to nerf the damage protected if they were to shorten the CD.

 

* Force push has issues due to client-server differences

 

Be more careful and adapt.

 

 

* Immortal spec you get invincible, but again long cooldown. Your dps as a tank in immortal ISN'T ON PAR WITH OTHER TANKS (no one is talking about being a full on dps here)

 

You can fill defensive roles while not being in immortal. Immortal emphasizes control and more rage generation while in soresu. You can go Rage and stay in soresu and do as well as these other tanks.

 

I'm not really sure how other classes operate, but I know jugs are pretty damn good at being able to go into soresu while in what ever spec and being able to guard and taunt while only sacrificing rage generation, which can be fixed with proper uses of Enrage and other rage builders.

 

 

* Rage spec is good, but come 1.2 marauders rage will be even better (because they have other things as well, so why spec rage in juggernaut)?

 

Marauders won't be able to do the same amount of damage while mitigating 45% physical damage. They won't be able to force charge nearly twice as often. Etc, etc.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Schwarzwald

[fadingdimension]

Posts like these are fun because they only focus on the subjective negative aspects of the class and leave out all the good things.

 

Maybe you don't like this class. That's fine. However, that doesn't mean the class is broken. It just means it may not fit your play-style. If you really like Rage and just want to run around slaughtering people then a Marauder is probably going to be more fun for you.

 

My Jugg Intercedes an ally, AoE taunts, Pushes an enemy away, taunts another, and drops its aoe stun/snare. Then laughs as my enemies hit like wet noodles and my ally gets away.

 

My Jugg grabs the Huttball, Intercedes and ally, Charges over the flames, Pushes an enemy off the catwalk, then charges again to score a goal. My Marauder can't do that.

 

Again... You may not enjoy your Jugg. But that doesn't mean there's something wrong with the class. Each class has a pretty unique style in this game and for good reason; to give players a choice.

[bananaface]

Jugs have the most flexibility AND mobility out of the other tank classes.

 

Jug is the only class as far as I know, that has a playstyle that can play both burst and protection roles on an above average basis, that being going into Rage and playing as Soresu. Being able to put out 300k+ damage while doing 100k-200k protection is kinda nuts if you ask me.

 

 

 

They don't have 2 stuns. They have an incapacitate and a stun, and there is a huge difference between the two.

 

If you spec up into backhand, juggernauts had 2 stuns and an aoe incapacitate.

 

oh hey schwarz! you ready to get stomped again? let the fun begin.

 

oh go read up on some other threat you got bashed in about rage soresu, not starting that again.

 

mobility is higher yes but only vs a bad team where they let you charge respawns.

 

assassin tanks do more then 300k dmg with the same amount of protection.

 

so spike is not classified as a stun, but it still makes the target unable to move or use any ability's. same result. it's also on half the cd of the stuns juggs have.

so the difference between the sins stun and knock down aint that huge, it's non excistant.

 

i already said juggs have an aoe stun, l2 read.

[Schwarzwald]

mobility is higher yes but only vs a bad team where they let you charge respawns.

 

Only one map where you charge up into those situations. This mobility can be used in closing distances where transfering to different points in Alderaan, like charging into a group of enemies attempting to attack a point you are defending, pushing one, aoe incapacicating the rest, then interceding/charging up onto the point. The same thing is true on voidstar when you need to quickly move to another door need to leave a situation in the tunnels.

 

Best part about this mobility is that nothing can stop you once you are mobile, unlike sprint in which you can be rooted/slowed.

 

 

assassin tanks do more then 300k dmg with the same amount of protection.

 

An assassin in DPS gear is much easier to kill and control then a juggernaut in DPS gear.

 

 

i already said juggs have an aoe stun, l2 read.

 

Stop acting like incapacitates and stuns are the same thing, they are not.

 

 

If I recall in that other thread, you didn't really seem to address my final points and the only people who did seemed to think that I was 'graced' by having a healer. And if their arguments boil down to not having a healer, then their arguments can't be taken seriously. Its group PvP, not solo pvp. The game is balanced for group pvp. Get a healer.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Schwarzwald

[CBRGhostRider]

 

1. Irrelevant, applies to everyone.

2. The game balances tanks around having higher pve mitigation/avoidance, not significantly higher health pools. Unfortunately this isn't helpful in pvp, hence why it is recommended you use dps gear in pvp instead of actual tank gear.

3. Not bad, long.

4. Applies to any knockback in the game in the presence of lag.

5. I've seen differently, again in dps gear. See the videos that were posted.

6. His point was that Marauders have quick recovery to make them better "smash monkeys" (except they lose quick recovery so from that perspective, not really). Also his points about heavy handed in the tank spec are kind of pointless seeing as single saber mastery will now work for Soresu form, giving 6% damage to all other skills (including the ones that lose damage in heavy handed so the nerf for that is negligible with the exception being possibly smash).

 

That cover everything?

 

Thank you for taking the time to address these. I hope more people can jump in on the discussion.

 

1. Actually it is VERY relevant. I'm glad you agree that heavy armor doesnt do much. Sure a BH in heavy armor takes as much damage as me in heavy armor. Problem is that the BH is a DPS spec that will dish out tons of damage also. My immortal is a tank spec that supposedly relies on this heavy armor to protect me, which it doesn't do.

 

2. Again, seems that you are at least somewhat agreeing that the health pool is a problem. But I'm sorry, to me, using dps gear on a tank in pvp is an indication that somthing is awfully broken in tank specs (for pvp). I don't want to be a wannabe-dps. I want to feel somewhat like a tank in pvp, especially when Bioware claimed that tanks will be viable in pvp.

 

3. I called it bad because it's never there when I need it in pvp. Yes, the point is that 3 min is way too long. I think you seem to agree.

 

4. Most AoE knockbacks are on dps/heal classes that don't really seem to care *where* the person that is knocked back lands, as long as the person is away from said knockbacker (or off the platform in huttball). Applying force push in huttball, I most certainly *do* care where the person lands, because I am gonna be charging him next and he better land closer to the goal line. Seems like the lag problem is worsened in my case. Although I will concede that there doesn't seem to be much bioware can do about this.

 

5. While I respect your choice to play your tank in dps gear, I want to be able to wear tank gear that (hopefully should) increase my survivability as a tank, and have similar dps to sintanks that are in their tank gear. After all it's about balance.

[ArtosKincaid]

I'll bite, fine.

 

1) The thing is every other class in heavy armor (including powertechs which people love to whine about) have to deal with the issue of armor not being as impressive as it should be. Is it poor design? Sure, but again, it's not like we're the only people being singled out.

 

2) We make up for our lower health pools in other ways. While it's unfortunate that sonic barrier doesn't scale, it's saved my *** more times than I'd like to think.

 

3) Our CDs are decent. Endure pain is a scumbag CD which works best when you have another healer, but Blade ward is fantastic. It absolutely shuts down damage from every melee class in the game and neuters non-lethality snipers and ops.

 

4) Again, we can dps just as well as any other tank spec out there if we swap mods out. Even if you pick up the war leader gear, you can optimize your gear to work in tandem with damage dealing. It's what EVERY good player in the game does, and it's a habit you should get into if you want to get the best out of your class. Invincible is a strong CD, I don't know why people give it so much hate, but it's damn good at keeping you alive as a tank.

 

5) *facepalm* You play a juggernaut not only to deal damage, but to provide defensive utility via taunts and yes, swapping forms to give people guard. I do it ALL the time, no matter what spec I am, because it helps my team. I've seen games where juggernauts do 600k+ damage, but have no guard whatsoever on their entire team, that, to me at least, means that all they want to do is tunnel damage and while I'm not saying that Marauders only tunnel damage, it's readily apparent to me that these juggernauts rolled the wrong class. They would have been better off playing marauder and providing OFFENSIVE group utility.

 

We are NOT a broken class by any stretch of the imagination. Gear and group dependent? Most certainly.

 

 

1) Heavy armor is used to justify our lower HP pools compared to other classes. Why do marauders have higher base HP than juggernauts?

 

2) Sonic Barrier is a great concept with a terrible execution. The shield is miniscule and doesn't scale with gear (or if it does the scale is minimal) which means as people get better gear your bubble gets worse and worse. Considering it's already pretty meh against any real DPS, you have a disappointing talent.

 

3) You just agreed with me that Endure Pain is a terrible cooldown, and agreed with me that Saber Ward is good. I never said Invincible wasn't great when it's up. The problem is it isn't up often enough when you're in a real PvP situation where people realize that the way to keep you from CCing their team is to burn you down, because if you don't have cooldowns you have no more survivability than anyone else.

 

4) No, we can't DPS as well as any other tank spec with mods switched out. Go look at the cooldowns on our abilities compared to the ones on an assassin and compare the damage potential.

 

5) I want to be a tank. I do not want to top the damage meter. I want to spec Immortal and have a real increase in survivability, not an increase in survivability every 3 minutes. The numbers I care the most about coming out of any game is my protection number and the number of deaths on my team.

 

Here's my issue. Once your opponents know that you're the problem, they can and will burn you down. You can survive long enough for someone else to do something about it when you have Invincible up (maybe) and sometimes Saber Ward, depending on team composition. If I don't have one of those cooldowns up, I will die. There is nothing I can do about it.

 

I want some way to actually do something about it, because the people I play against regularly have figured out that if you just focus fire the tank, it's a hell of a lot easier to kill everyone else while the tank runs back.

[Schwarzwald]

Thank you for taking the time to address these. I hope more people can jump in on the discussion.

 

1. Actually it is VERY relevant. I'm glad you agree that heavy armor doesnt do much. Sure a BH in heavy armor takes as much damage as me in heavy armor. Problem is that the BH is a DPS spec that will dish out tons of damage also. My immortal is a tank spec that supposedly relies on this heavy armor to protect me, which it doesn't do.

 

2. Again, seems that you are at least somewhat agreeing that the health pool is a problem. But I'm sorry, to me, using dps gear on a tank in pvp is an indication that somthing is awfully broken in tank specs (for pvp). I don't want to be a wannabe-dps. I want to feel somewhat like a tank in pvp, especially when Bioware claimed that tanks will be viable in pvp.

 

3. I called it bad because it's never there when I need it in pvp. Yes, the point is that 3 min is way too long. I think you seem to agree.

 

4. Most AoE knockbacks are on dps/heal classes that don't really seem to care *where* the person that is knocked back lands, as long as the person is away from said knockbacker (or off the platform in huttball). Applying force push in huttball, I most certainly *do* care where the person lands, because I am gonna be charging him next and he better land closer to the goal line. Seems like the lag problem is worsened in my case. Although I will concede that there doesn't seem to be much bioware can do about this.

 

5. While I respect your choice to play your tank in dps gear, I want to be able to wear tank gear that (hopefully should) increase my survivability as a tank, and have similar dps to sintanks that are in their tank gear. After all it's about balance.

 

The problem with Juggernaut tanking gear is that Bioware balances for rock paper scissors. Well not every server seems to have scissors that are sharp enough to even cut through paper, so the value of what jugs can bring to the table is somewhat limited if what they are good defending against isn't even worth defending against.

 

Atleast on my server, there are no notable marauders or snipers, so speccing into defensive gear to specifically counter them seems like a waste of time. If our gear had much more shield effecting stats, then I would probably be wearing it, but it doesn't, so its not worth it.

 

But on the flipside, I have a sniper alt. I melt Assassin tanks. The only time I don't damage them is when their CD's are being used, but any time outside of their defensive cooldowns they are essentially easy kills for a sniper due to their low armor.

 

My theory is that everyone who plays the classes that Juggernauts are meant to counter as tanks are horrible, thus, gearing and speccing as a Jug Tank doesn't do much. This is why some tend to think armor is useless, when in fact it is amazing when there are classes present that actually are mitigated by armor. Rage is mitigated quite hard against other Jugs, your taunts and your own armor will really reduce the overall damage done on a smash.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Schwarzwald

[FalcoLombardi]

I just started PvP. And I do best in Huttball and Voidstar. Can get 30-60K Protection. 80-140K damage. Not to mention Juggernaut's can be ball carrier's/carrier defenders

[CBRGhostRider]

I'll bite, fine.

 

1) The thing is every other class in heavy armor (including powertechs which people love to whine about) have to deal with the issue of armor not being as impressive as it should be. Is it poor design? Sure, but again, it's not like we're the only people being singled out.

 

2) We make up for our lower health pools in other ways. While it's unfortunate that sonic barrier doesn't scale, it's saved my *** more times than I'd like to think.

 

3) Our CDs are decent. Endure pain is a scumbag CD which works best when you have another healer, but Blade ward is fantastic. It absolutely shuts down damage from every melee class in the game and neuters non-lethality snipers and ops.

 

4) Again, we can dps just as well as any other tank spec out there if we swap mods out. Even if you pick up the war leader gear, you can optimize your gear to work in tandem with damage dealing. It's what EVERY good player in the game does, and it's a habit you should get into if you want to get the best out of your class. Invincible is a strong CD, I don't know why people give it so much hate, but it's damn good at keeping you alive as a tank.

 

5) *facepalm* You play a juggernaut not only to deal damage, but to provide defensive utility via taunts and yes, swapping forms to give people guard. I do it ALL the time, no matter what spec I am, because it helps my team. I've seen games where juggernauts do 600k+ damage, but have no guard whatsoever on their entire team, that, to me at least, means that all they want to do is tunnel damage and while I'm not saying that Marauders only tunnel damage, it's readily apparent to me that these juggernauts rolled the wrong class. They would have been better off playing marauder and providing OFFENSIVE group utility.

 

We are NOT a broken class by any stretch of the imagination. Gear and group dependent? Most certainly.

 

1. Thank you. I guess that is the gist of what I'm saying. Bioware needs to either fix something about heavy armor, or give us a bit more mitigation against damage that bypasses armor. Then maybe I will feel more tanky.

 

2. Sonic barrier scaling would help immensely. I;ve seen threads where it says that the damage blocked is about 800 hp and doesn't scale. Somehow, I don't think this defense is "working as intended". But we would need Bioware to be able to clarify that.

 

3. Saber ward and invincible are both fantastic no doubt. But 3 min is way too long to wait for them to come back up.

 

4. I've already stated my stance about this, and I know that the majority of you will disagree. But swapping out mods from the tank set or wearing dps gear instead, just points to a more fundamental problem IMO... tank gear doesn't do much, which seems like a design flaw.

 

5. Agreed, and I love the utility of my Jug, the mobility in huttball, and even just the way he plays. Please understand, unlike the OP, I am NOT going to retire my jug w/ 1.2. However I would like to see some changes made regarding the points the OP has stated.

[Vodrin]

All this stuff about heavy armor not mattering, and maruaders having better survivability than juggs does bother me a bit. My original main was a sentinel that I managed to get mostly geared in BM gear. I now have rerolled a jugg and I am just breaking into 50 PvP. The jugg has better survivability hands down against any reasonably coordinated team. The rebuke bubble is the one thing that can give the sentinel an advantage (guarded by the force is very situational and overrated), and that is negated by any team smart enough to CC and stop damaging when they see it.

[thorizdin]

1. Thank you. I guess that is the gist of what I'm saying. Bioware needs to either fix something about heavy armor, or give us a bit more mitigation against damage that bypasses armor. Then maybe I will feel more tanky.

 

This would be nice, but I'd rather the change be to shields rather than armor so they don't have to also adjust Sin tanks separately nor do BHs get an un-needed buff to survivabilty. Not all tanks wear heavy armor and not everyone that wears heavy armor is a tank.

 

2. Sonic barrier scaling would help immensely. I;ve seen threads where it says that the damage blocked is about 800 hp and doesn't scale. Somehow, I don't think this defense is "working as intended". But we would need Bioware to be able to clarify that.

 

Its 850 to be exact on PTS. Again, this would be nice but they'd have to be careful with it since a spammable damage shield that scaled with HP or Power could be IMBA.

 

3. Saber ward and invincible are both fantastic no doubt. But 3 min is way too long to wait for them to come back up.

 

This one I outright disagree with. They're both too strong to have a shorter cooldown and probably not needed if shielding worked on more kinds of attacks in PvP. A change to the cooldowns is certainly not needed in PvE.

 

4. I've already stated my stance about this, and I know that the majority of you will disagree. But swapping out mods from the tank set or wearing dps gear instead, just points to a more fundamental problem IMO... tank gear doesn't do much, which seems like a design flaw.

 

Tank gear itemization is poor right now and this is true of the PvP and PvE sets. I hope this gets changed in 1.2 because the set bonuses are actually nice.

[Zellfel]

Thank you for taking the time to address these. I hope more people can jump in on the discussion.

 

1. Actually it is VERY relevant. I'm glad you agree that heavy armor doesnt do much. Sure a BH in heavy armor takes as much damage as me in heavy armor. Problem is that the BH is a DPS spec that will dish out tons of damage also. My immortal is a tank spec that supposedly relies on this heavy armor to protect me, which it doesn't do.

 

2. Again, seems that you are at least somewhat agreeing that the health pool is a problem. But I'm sorry, to me, using dps gear on a tank in pvp is an indication that somthing is awfully broken in tank specs (for pvp). I don't want to be a wannabe-dps. I want to feel somewhat like a tank in pvp, especially when Bioware claimed that tanks will be viable in pvp.

 

3. I called it bad because it's never there when I need it in pvp. Yes, the point is that 3 min is way too long. I think you seem to agree.

 

4. Most AoE knockbacks are on dps/heal classes that don't really seem to care *where* the person that is knocked back lands, as long as the person is away from said knockbacker (or off the platform in huttball). Applying force push in huttball, I most certainly *do* care where the person lands, because I am gonna be charging him next and he better land closer to the goal line. Seems like the lag problem is worsened in my case. Although I will concede that there doesn't seem to be much bioware can do about this.

 

5. While I respect your choice to play your tank in dps gear, I want to be able to wear tank gear that (hopefully should) increase my survivability as a tank, and have similar dps to sintanks that are in their tank gear. After all it's about balance.

 

#1 is irrelevant because many major damage sources bypass it and it applies the same benefit to everyone else. Juggs could be thrown in medium armor and have the soresu form armor modifier change it to equate the same overall damage mitigation (a la assassins with their light armor), but this would adversely affect the non-tank specs.

 

#2 Actually I'm not agreeing with you. Changing tank health pools to be significantly larger than the dps counterparts turns PVE (the other half of the game) into a cluster ****. It will force raid bosses to be balanced around the ability to do insanely large amounts of damage (otherwise there's no threat to the tank), which would in turn rebalance healers around being able to heal said insanely large amounts of damage, which will make them heal insanely large amounts of damage in PVP. This leads to PvP healer godmode and both sides of the game will be unable to ever be balanced without upping the modifiers on crippling/deadly throw and the sniper/slinger equivalent, increasing the necessity of having those classes around when a healer is involved, or a complete overhaul of game mechanics.

 

#3 Again, making CDs shorter means 1 of 2 things need to happen. The effect of the CD is diminished or all other tank class defensive CDs need to be brought up in line with the Juggernauts. If the effects are diminished, people will cry useless. If the other tanks have CDs to the strength of ours, we'll be back in the situation of everyone calling us useless (while we're not).

 

#4 When I played my sorcerer alt, I didn't want my AoE pushback to knock the enemy ball carrier closer to the goal. It happened once (my latency was a bit higher since I live in the US and was on a European server at the time) and it wasn't fun, believe me. As others have said, you have to anticipate and adjust.

 

#5 Tank damage balance has never been perfect in any MMO I have played. No where even close. I understand the frustration of Sin tanks doing more damage, but personally I have always held Soresu form as being the source of tank damage problems for Juggs/Guards. I would rather have a 5% damage reduction than gimp our resource generation but sometimes you gotta roll with the punches.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Zellfel

[CBRGhostRider]

This would be nice, but I'd rather the change be to shields rather than armor so they don't have to also adjust Sin tanks separately nor do BHs get an un-needed buff to survivabilty. Not all tanks wear heavy armor and not everyone that wears heavy armor is a tank.

 

 

Good point. Frankly, I don't really care how they balance it, and I also understand that balance is a very tricky thing. All I really want is for them to look at the issue, acknowledge that it is a problem, and do *something* to try and fix it. I also understand that it will inevitably lead to the buff-nerf-buff-unbuff cycle for an MMO and that may be the nature of the problem, but that is preferable to Bioware not doing anything.

 

 

Its 850 to be exact on PTS. Again, this would be nice but they'd have to be careful with it since a spammable damage shield that scaled with HP or Power could be IMBA.

 

Yep. The way it stands right now its really less and doesn't scale. But it could easily get out of hand (OP) if it scales too much, because we use it quite often. But I'm sure they could collect data and come up with the appropriate tweaks to the ability to make it more useful but not OP.

 

This one I outright disagree with. They're both too strong to have a shorter cooldown and probably not needed if shielding worked on more kinds of attacks in PvP. A change to the cooldowns is certainly not needed in PvE.

 

 

Then we will agree to disagree.

 

Tank gear itemization is poor right now and this is true of the PvP and PvE sets. I hope this gets changed in 1.2 because the set bonuses are actually nice.

 

I hope so too.

[Blistrich]

Artos,

 

You seem like a smart guy. I know there are those in this thread who have mentioned that they do fine in both PvE and PvP, but frankly, you're a tank.

 

When have you ever heard of a tank having an easy go of it in PvP?

 

You have chosen the one archetype that requires a vast amount of patience, creativity and luck to excel against other players and their classes in direct confrontations. Where I do agree with you is with regard to the armor.

 

Heavy armor that doesn't do what heavy armor is supposed to do. Not good.

[Locustone]

If I recall in that other thread, you didn't really seem to address my final points and the only people who did seemed to think that I was 'graced' by having a healer. And if their arguments boil down to not having a healer, then their arguments can't be taken seriously. Its group PvP, not solo pvp. The game is balanced for group pvp. Get a healer.

 

So, again, you come on here and say the class is fine, etc., but it is conditional on having a dedicated healer? FAIL. If you have 3 healers only healing you that means others are not getting heals, that doesn't sound like group pvp to me. It just sounds like you have dedicated healers. Tanks (all tanks) should have much better survivability than dps classes on their own NOT conditional of being in a pre-made group or having all your cooldowns available. Take away the cooldowns and the healers and you are just as squishy, if not more so, than other dps classes. That is why it is broken.

 

You can shout team play all day long, but if your pocket healers suddendly fell off the planet you would be a worse player then most people out there, since you have grown accustomed to force charging into 5 enemies and being kept alive the whole time.

[thorizdin]

When have you ever heard of a tank having an easy go of it in PvP?

 

I gotta say, I have more fun PvP'ing as a tank in SWTOR than I have in any MMO since the early days of CoH PvP. (Tanks aren't much good there now, but they were completely IMBA in early PvP.)

 

Having said that the tanks in SWTOR are inherently a team based role. You have to work with your teammates to get optimal results and that simply doesn't happen in many pug teams.

 

In rated warzones most teams are going to have 2 tank specced characters and many are talking about a third that is a hybrid build. This is because taunt, Guard, and healers working together are so strong that there are many threads in the PvP forum about nerfing Guard and/or taunt.

[Schwarzwald]

So, again, you come on here and say the class is fine, etc., but it is conditional on having a dedicated healer? FAIL. If you have 3 healers only healing you that means others are not getting heals, that doesn't sound like group pvp to me. It just sounds like you have dedicated healers. Tanks (all tanks) should have much better survivability than dps classes on their own NOT conditional of being in a pre-made group or having all your cooldowns available. Take away the cooldowns and the healers and you are just as squishy, if not more so, than other dps classes. That is why it is broken.

 

You can shout team play all day long, but if your pocket healers suddendly fell off the planet you would be a worse player then most people out there, since you have grown accustomed to force charging into 5 enemies and being kept alive the whole time.

 

I don't get your reasoning at all.

 

What are the conditions for how you are comparing these classes?

 

You expect one of these classes without a healer would live much longer then a Juggernaut? Is that what you are trying to compare here?

 

If so that is the most useless, ineffective comparison I've ever seen attempting to be made. Whats the point if you try to compare pure damage mitigation but ignore mobility? Of course one class is going to die faster then another if I just stood there and took it, because if it was true, then this game would be boring and there would be no point to having more then 3 classes in the game.

 

If I had no healer, I would live the same amount of any other class. My mobility, constant refresh of sonic barrier and use of cooldowns and stuns would all keep me alive about the same amount of time as a powertech, who is unable to really move around alot and just sits there tanking it. I charge around, force the enemy to move and follow me if they wanted to kill me. Powertechs and assassins need that because they don't come close in distance closing like the jug.

 

If you want to be a stationary wall, then you are playing the wrong class.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Schwarzwald

[JamieKirby]

This is why i gave up posting about class issues, you just get pounced on by players that claim to be 'the elite of the elite' and say that they can do it fine, so you must suck and need to L2P and that just shows how bad the community is, instead of helping out, they just say you suck and should move on.

[Tinmancreeping]

Some of the best tanks I know are Juggies.

 

I guess you ain't doing it right.

 

^hehe

[CBRGhostRider]

#1 is irrelevant because many major damage sources bypass it and it applies the same benefit to everyone else. Juggs could be thrown in medium armor and have the soresu form armor modifier change it to equate the same overall damage mitigation (a la assassins with their light armor), but this would adversely affect the non-tank specs.

 

#2 Actually I'm not agreeing with you. Changing tank health pools to be significantly larger than the dps counterparts turns PVE (the other half of the game) into a cluster ****. It will force raid bosses to be balanced around the ability to do insanely large amounts of damage (otherwise there's no threat to the tank), which would in turn rebalance healers around being able to heal said insanely large amounts of damage, which will make them heal insanely large amounts of damage in PVP. This leads to PvP healer godmode and both sides of the game will be unable to ever be balanced without upping the modifiers on crippling/deadly throw and the sniper/slinger equivalent, increasing the necessity of having those classes around when a healer is involved, or a complete overhaul of game mechanics.

 

#3 Again, making CDs shorter means 1 of 2 things need to happen. The effect of the CD is diminished or all other tank class defensive CDs need to be brought up in line with the Juggernauts. If the effects are diminished, people will cry useless. If the other tanks have CDs to the strength of ours, we'll be back in the situation of everyone calling us useless (while we're not).

 

#4 When I played my sorcerer alt, I didn't want my AoE pushback to knock the enemy ball carrier closer to the goal. It happened once (my latency was a bit higher since I live in the US and was on a European server at the time) and it wasn't fun, believe me. As others have said, you have to anticipate and adjust.

 

#5 Tank damage balance has never been perfect in any MMO I have played. No where even close. I understand the frustration of Sin tanks doing more damage, but personally I have always held Soresu form as being the source of tank damage problems for Juggs/Guards. I would rather have a 5% damage reduction than gimp our resource generation but sometimes you gotta roll with the punches.

 

1. But that is my point, if many major damage sources bypass my armor and I don't have enough defences against them (e.g. internal damage), then I'm not very tanky. If PT tanks also face this problem, then it doesn't make it any less of a problem, in fact it's even bigger. I think one of the other posters was thinking along the correct lines when he mentioned (in the previous post) that if not armor, then shields should account for more damage prevention. Like I said, I don't care which component (defense/shield/absorb) makes me more survivable, as long as something is tweaked to increase tank survivability.

 

2. I never claimed health needs to be significantly larger than dps. Juggernaut health needs to be in line w/ sintank health, since overall we seem to have similar defence/mitigation. I've heard heavy vs. light armor arguments made to justify their higher health, but as we have established, heavy armor doesn't do much.

 

3. You are absolutely right that tweaking things will lead to balance issues, which is why it must be done carefully. It would have been wonderful if those tweaks were already in place, and being tested across the PTS...

 

4. I still stand by my claim that the problem is excerbated w/ juggernauts because we rely on push all the time to position our next charge (not just near the goal). anyway, I concede that Bioware probably doesn't have a viable solution here.

 

5. Yes we gotta roll w/ the punches. But it doesn't hurt to make our concerns known.

[Veeius]

Some of the best tanks I know are Juggies.

 

I guess you ain't doing it right.

 

I guess you don't know very many tanks other than juggs, huh?

 

Today's phrase is "vacuous statement."

[thorizdin]

I gotta say, that's pretty *********** weak.

[Schwarzwald]

My point is you have to rate the different tanks on what they can do.

 

You'd have to rate each class in a certain aspect and then assign some arbitrary score to it and then compare the total scores in each field among the other tanks.

 

Like for instance, Jug tanks would have a much higher score in mobility and the amount of pure straight stun control.

 

On the other hand PT's would have a higher score in ability to suck up damage, etc, etc.

 

I think a lot of confusion coming from here is that people are not playing the strengths of a class properly and then cry when they see another tank class doing something that Jugs were not intended to be doing.

 

 

If we are going to compare tanks without the presence of healers, then you need to create a situation in which all tank classes have some sort of benefit in and then put each tank into that situation and rate their ability to stay alive.

[Veeius]

When people are going to understand (and accept) that you cannot truly balance PvP in MMO's based on toon being a specific class.

 

PS: It is pretty much an exercise in futility, until every class has the same toolset. Which is making them all 1 class =D.

 

Solution: Roll 1 toon of each Class/AC and use the FotM one.

 

1) this is false. You CAN balance things to an extent. perfectly balanced? no. But there's NO reason to say "oh, a smuggler... ok, well, I need to go get a drink anyways."

 

2)The thing that bugs me about this "you can't balance" crap, is that it is INEVITABLY used as an excuse for why one class gets to be the curb stompee in most situations.

 

It is fixable, just not by people who don't care to try.

[Midichlorien]

vs a pug the juggernaut is the better ball carrier cause of random scrubs who stand on the ledge pewpewing at you so you can charge them.

but do you need to be tank specced to do this? eh no..you can do it just aswell as rage and (if not better due to unstoppable) as vengeance.

vs a premade (a good one ofc) you won't get this opportunity nor a chance to leap to a friendly target cause the premade will make sure you won't be able to.

thus being immune to all tech and force ability's for 5 seconds and are able to use this while sprinting will be better by a mile.

 

I want to highlighten this, because it's just true.

 

No idea vs. which groups the majority here plays, but vs. a good premade with Teamspeak communication you will burn your cooldowns, be it defensive cooldowns or movement cooldowns, on the first 50m up to the next ramp. Nobody will show up for a force jump and group members are kicked/tossed down off the ramps to prevent the friendly sorcerer to toss and your intercede.

 

The art of hutball is passing the ball and knowing where I have to stand and where I have to go in every second of the game.

 

...and that's the measure, nothing else.