Guard needs a counter

[goulet]

the problem is thats pretty much all tanks bring to the table, outside of running the ball in huttball, and exluding sin tanks who can actually proc guaranteed crits. you can pick off someone with low health but in no way is your damage gonna do the job of protecting anyone by killing their opponent. Guard is pretty much the majority of defense a tank brings to pvp, all their personal defense, outside damage reducing abilities,doesn't apply to anything decent in pvp as most attacks ignore it completely.

 

Now im not gonna say its not annoying, but all this conversation seems to place the blame at the tank solely. Let's not forget the healer, but also look at how to counter it.

 

-Without the healer guards a joke, you're just taking more damage. Which type of healer its placed on makes a difference, trooper healer+their no interrupt shield+guard is nuts, but thats more because you can't interrupt the guy.

 

-Guard is ranged dependent, you can't put it on someone and have them run where they please without the tank by them and still have it affect them. Most teams/players focus on moving the guarded or the guarder, but rarely both at the same time. good teams will have one person pull/push/grapple the healer one way, and have another pull/push/grapple the tank the opposite direction. Then kill them. Of course theres always some genius who blows cc's whenever their up for no tactical advantage screwing the resolve pooch for their team.

 

-Taunts only last 6 seconds, the most frequently usable is single target. But every tank has an aoe taunt with a longer cooldown but it still only last 6 seconds. problem is every tank ac has it, and can use it not when tank specced, so its not necessarily the tank doing it, and creates problem with chain taunts.

i think you could make a reasonable argument for it to only be usable while in tank stance.

[Kleve]

I don't care what class gets it, but Guard needs some sort of counter ability. Give the two most underperforming dps specs (I'd say 1.2 operatives and mercs--gives them something unique where some classes have trauma and some have a guard counter leading to a healthy combination of classes for ranked teams) a "guard break" that shatters guard for 5 seconds or something of the sort.

 

Right now, 2 healers + 2 tanks is literally unkillable. Two taunts being spammed massively reduces damage dealt and two guards on top of that allow healers to keep each other up while the tanks mitigate enough damage to stay above 50%. Before you come in and say "bu bu bu just separate the tank from the healer," it's almost impossible to keep a tank away from his healer unless you're a juggernaut (aka a gimped dps or another tank).

 

With guard and taunt, tanks have an enormous impact on a warzone by simply existing. A DPS or even a healer has to actively target switch, bait abilities, and focus on survivability at the same time. Address this imbalance by giving certain tank abilities reactive counters that force tanks to react, bait, and think.

 

I feel like healers in SWTOR are fine but a lot of the whining comes from tanks combined with healers. It's almost hell to solo queue as a healer when you have no active guard or tank helping you out. This leads to a balance nightmare where solo queue healers are in hell and are underpowered and where healers with multiple tanks are overpowered. It's nigh impossible to hit an in between for these two extremes.

 

Healers have to deal with interrupts/trauma and dps have to deal with taunts, guards, and the tremendous amount of CC in this game. Give guard some sort of counter.

 

There *IS* a guard 'counter' and it's actually entirely part of the mechanic. Attack the tank with his guard on someone. But I'm going to go ahead and declare 'shenanigans' on your entire post here because what you're REALLY complaining about is you can't solo kill a healer being guarded by a tank. Guess what, that's part of the mechanic as well. This game WANTS you to work as a team. There are countless ways to deal with healers (healing being broken in pvp is an entirely different argument to get into). Healers can be marked/focus'd down. They can be CC'd. They can be 'pulled' away from the tank guarding them (Yes, that's also part of the mechanic, there's a range limit on guard).

 

The point here is no, YOU can't run in solo and kill a healer/tank combo, even if you have uber dps. You can't faceroll your way thru this game like you can certain OTHER games. I've played healers and tanks in pvp. We die. It's possible to kill us. Whether we're good or bad, we CAN be killed and there are myriads of tactics to do it.

[ShadowOfVey]

I agree with the spirit of the OP actually (and I am a tank that uses guard with healers religiously)

 

It's not so much that just popping guard on a healer is an instant I win, but more that it requires so much more effort, concentration, and coordination to defeat than it takes for the tank and healer to apply.

 

The game currently has very little in the way of counter mechanics to this that can be applied by only 2 players without dipping into very specialized pairings in an otherwise empty combat field with no outside influence. When you add more than one such pairing into a combat situation, thus allowing cross healing to occur from one guarded healer to another, it gets exponentially more difficult to control (and thus defeat).

 

Some sort of abilities added to a couple classes that allow guard to be broken temporarily (or even just reduced in percentage guarded) via a debuff would go a long way towards keeping situations heavily biased towards the tank/healer synergy from occurring as often, and yet would still allow guarding to remain a very viable and powerful mechanic.

 

I know some might read the last paragraph and say "Such mechanics already exist in the forms of knockbacks and pulls that put the healer and tank at a distance from each other, breaking guard". It's true, however the distance isn't held for long. Even in the case of force pull/grapple, a healer pulled in such a manner tends to still be at least in range of friendly heals (and their own obviously) allowing them to tough out this time and get back to optimal position with their tank. It's true that you could have your squad of several people waiting that you pull a healer into and kill them, but I think that's applying more people to the task than should be necessary.

Edited March 31, 2012 by ShadowOfVey

[Anbokr]

At this point half the posts are ignoring the OP and the argument has become something like "QQ cant faceroll tanks as dps qq moar." The sad thing about the current warzones is it comes down to 1 thing--survival, survival, survival. You don't need to live for 15+ minutes to win a warzone as a tank/heals, all you have to do is stand there and last an extraordinary amount of time (like a raid boss) until your other tank/heals buddies come back along and the vicious cycle repeats. The effort it takes to dissect this combo is too easily deflected by the way warzones are set up.

 

No one's advocating for an "easy" way to defeat guard. Hell, attach a requirement on the ability that "breaks" guard (which should be on a lengthy CD--maybe 2 mins so it's used wisely); maybe make it so the ability to break guard on a player for a time is only usable if his tank is 10+ meters away. This actually gives pulling/weak knockbacks a purpose (if you legitimately separate the tank and his healer, you actually have a window of oppurtunity that won't be overritten by a simple charge or intercede). Right now a lot of you forget that these same tanks getting pulled or knocked back either A) have multiple charges and an intercede (juggs/lesser extent PTs) or B) have a 20 or 30 second sprint. It's not hard to stay near a healer in this game, especially with the tools you have as a tank.

Edited March 31, 2012 by Anbokr

[Kleve]

At this point half the posts are ignoring the OP and the argument has become something like "QQ cant faceroll tanks as dps qq moar." The sad thing about the current warzones is it comes down to 1 thing--survival, survival, survival. You don't need to live for 15+ minutes to win a warzone as a tank/heals, all you have to do is stand there and last an extraordinary amount of time (like a raid boss) until your other tank/heals buddies come back along and the vicious cycle repeats. The effort it takes to dissect this combo is too easily deflected by the way warzones are set up.

 

No one's advocating for an "easy" way to defeat guard. Hell, attach a requirement on the ability that "breaks" guard (which should be on a lengthy CD--maybe 2 mins so it's used wisely); maybe make it so the ability to break guard on a player for a time is only usable if his tank is 10+ meters away. This actually gives pulling/weak knockbacks a purpose (if you legitimately separate the tank and his healer, you actually have a window of oppurtunity that won't be overritten by a simple charge or intercede). Right now a lot of you forget that these same tanks getting pulled or knocked back either A) have multiple charges and an intercede (juggs/lesser extent PTs) or B) have a 20 or 30 second sprint. It's not hard to stay near a healer in this game, especially with the tools you have as a tank.

 

Right, because all the various pulls/knockbacks in the game are being underutilized and people REALLY, REALLY wish there was a REASON to use them in pvp.

[Kleve]

I agree with the spirit of the OP actually (and I am a tank that uses guard with healers religiously)

 

It's not so much that just popping guard on a healer is an instant I win, but more that it requires so much more effort, concentration, and coordination to defeat than it takes for the tank and healer to apply.

 

The game currently has very little in the way of counter mechanics to this that can be applied by only 2 players without dipping into very specialized pairings in an otherwise empty combat field with no outside influence. When you add more than one such pairing into a combat situation, thus allowing cross healing to occur from one guarded healer to another, it gets exponentially more difficult to control (and thus defeat).

 

Some sort of abilities added to a couple classes that allow guard to be broken temporarily (or even just reduced in percentage guarded) via a debuff would go a long way towards keeping situations heavily biased towards the tank/healer synergy from occurring as often, and yet would still allow guarding to remain a very viable and powerful mechanic.

 

I know some might read the last paragraph and say "Such mechanics already exist in the forms of knockbacks and pulls that put the healer and tank at a distance from each other, breaking guard". It's true, however the distance isn't held for long. Even in the case of force pull/grapple, a healer pulled in such a manner tends to still be at least in range of friendly heals (and their own obviously) allowing them to tough out this time and get back to optimal position with their tank. It's true that you could have your squad of several people waiting that you pull a healer into and kill them, but I think that's applying more people to the task than should be necessary.

 

You're correct to a point. Where your logic breaks down is the assumption you seem to be making that healers can heal themselves while running. If they're pulled into 2-3 people or have to REALLY spam heal themselves to stay up, MOST of the time they have to STOP to do this.

[MorgonKara]

Guard and taunt are the main utilities tanks have in PvP, without them a tank is just pathetic DPS. If anything healing needs a nerf. Taunts have a cooldown -they can't really be spammed -heals do not. Edited April 1, 2012 by MorgonKara

[Purre]

I don't care what class gets it, but Guard needs some sort of counter ability. Give the two most underperforming dps specs (I'd say 1.2 operatives and mercs--gives them something unique where some classes have trauma and some have a guard counter leading to a healthy combination of classes for ranked teams) a "guard break" that shatters guard for 5 seconds or something of the sort.

 

Right now, 2 healers + 2 tanks is literally unkillable. Two taunts being spammed massively reduces damage dealt and two guards on top of that allow healers to keep each other up while the tanks mitigate enough damage to stay above 50%. Before you come in and say "bu bu bu just separate the tank from the healer," it's almost impossible to keep a tank away from his healer unless you're a juggernaut (aka a gimped dps or another tank).

 

With guard and taunt, tanks have an enormous impact on a warzone by simply existing. A DPS or even a healer has to actively target switch, bait abilities, and focus on survivability at the same time. Address this imbalance by giving certain tank abilities reactive counters that force tanks to react, bait, and think.

 

I feel like healers in SWTOR are fine but a lot of the whining comes from tanks combined with healers. It's almost hell to solo queue as a healer when you have no active guard or tank helping you out. This leads to a balance nightmare where solo queue healers are in hell and are underpowered and where healers with multiple tanks are overpowered. It's nigh impossible to hit an in between for these two extremes.

 

Healers have to deal with interrupts/trauma and dps have to deal with taunts, guards, and the tremendous amount of CC in this game. Give guard some sort of counter.

 

 

just remove it from pvp, problem solved

or make it a 5-6sec buff with 1min cd or something just be able to throw it around are just retarded

[Incauta]

What the OP wants is some thing like Chaos Bolt form WoW warlocks. a Move that is not effected by armor, bubbles, or any other form of damage reduction.

 

I still don't agree.

[Proppa]

You don't need a "guard breaker" you just need to learn to focus fire and interupt properly. There's a Sorc/Guardian (sub 50 bracket) who are always in Warzones, I can normally drop the Sorc whilst the team do other things (on my Operative).

 

You aren't doing less damage, your just doing across 2 players. Taunt is what's reducing your DPS.

[MorgonKara]

It's a two way street. Try playing a tank in PvP without a healer backing you up? -I didn't think so. Guard/Taunt isn't the issue (guard actually increases the damage a tank takes when their guarded ally takes damage, taunt reduces damage except against the tank). Tanks are no where near overpowered in PvP. Healing is the issue. As it is you don't even really need tanks in PvP, a Sorcerer/Sage DPS & Healer zerg is all you really need to dominate. Edited April 1, 2012 by MorgonKara

[Incauta]

It's a two way street. Try playing a tank in PvP without a healer backing you up? -I didn't think so. Guard/Taunt isn't the issue (guard actually increases the damage a tank takes when their guarded ally takes damage, taunt reduces damage except against the tank). Tanks are no where near overpowered in PvP. Healing is the issue. As it is you don't even really need tanks in PvP, a Sorcerer/Sage DPS & Healer zerg is all you really need to dominate.

 

I was actaully shocked that they made a niche at all for tanks in pvp.

[MorgonKara]

I was actaully shocked that they made a niche at all for tanks in pvp.

 

Yeah me too, I can't believe that anyone would want to ruin that. It barely works as it is. Anyone with a sense for strategy would just ignore the tanks in PvP because their chief utility is to distract/slow the enemy and draw their fire. As a tank I love it when I get 4 enemies focused on me because that means 4 enemies distracted while my teammates go for objectives. (of course in PUGs it's rare that my teammates actually take advantage of the distraction, but whatever -it works when I'm on a decent team). A coordinated group would always take out the healers first and the tanks last.

Edited April 1, 2012 by MorgonKara

[GRINnBARRETT]

My solution:

 

Let guard affect only the source of power that the guarder specializes in. Here are the 4 types of damage:

 

Force

Tech

Melee

Ranged

 

Guard via Shadows/Assassins & Guardians/Juggernauts cut Force & melee damage by 50%.

 

Guard via Vanguards/Powertechs cut Tech & ranged damage by 50%.

 

Or you distinguish it by type of damage

Internal

Physical

Kinetic

Elemental

 

There are abilities already in place that shows they can utilize this feature.

 

http://www.torhead.com/ability/dNi1CS4/blade-turning for example.

[MorgonKara]

You can't tell me that a coordinated group cannot take out a healer just because they are Guarded.

[TheronFett]

Guard and Taunt are the only viable abilities tanks bring to PvP. Their damage reduction and DPS is non-existent. The best tanks can hope for is to basically be disruptive to the other team.

 

As I see it, Guard is broken. A player guarding someone can be out of the 15m range, but if I try to guard that player an error message says that person is already being guarded. Guard should automatically deactivate once the tank is out of range.

[Incauta]

Guard and Taunt are the only viable abilities tanks bring to PvP. Their damage reduction and DPS is non-existent. The best tanks can hope for is to basically be disruptive to the other team.

 

As I see it, Guard is broken. A player guarding someone can be out of the 15m range, but if I try to guard that player an error message says that person is already being guarded. Guard should automatically deactivate once the tank is out of range.

 

Then tanks would be spamming it to keep it on anything....one simple knock back and it would fall off. Plus the implications that would carry over into the pve setting would be devastating.

[exphryl]

Or just make it so Taunt doesn't stack with an ally that is guarded....

 

That would go a long way to help out things.

[GRINnBARRETT]

Guard and Taunt are the only viable abilities tanks bring to PvP. Their damage reduction and DPS is non-existent.

 

I have to disagree, I've seen Rage & Focus specs absolutely tear up people. Any generic youtube search could verify this.

[TheronFett]

I have to disagree, I've seen Rage & Focus specs absolutely tear up people. Any generic youtube search could verify this.

 

Those aren't tank specs which require the stance to use Guard.

 

Then tanks would be spamming it to keep it on anything....one simple knock back and it would fall off. Plus the implications that would carry over into the pve setting would be devastating.

 

I often switch Guard targets in Huttball. On other maps I'm usually guarding a healer w/ my Juggy alt. You do have a point about knockback though. Perhaps a 10 sec timer before guard drops if the target is out of range would be a nice balance? It just seems silly that I can't guard someone when their tank is on the other side of the map and just forgot to take it off.

Edited April 1, 2012 by TheronFett

[Banbite]

The only thing that should be changed about guard is that when a tank with guard up is cc'd, by a stun or mezz, the guard should stop transferring damage. Because atm that damage breaks any mezz which makes tanks effectively immune against any mez kind of cc.

 

This could serve as a way to counter it, want to nuke down that healer? CC the tank and do it, just the same way as you would cc a healer to nuke down a dps.

[Xavory]

Just go watch any of the 4v4 tournaments floating around: They all have guarded healers, and they all die, eventually.

 

Pro tip: (AE Damage)

[pauliej]

yea!! that move is too op...

 

so let nerf operatives.

[MorgonKara]

I have to disagree, I've seen Rage & Focus specs absolutely tear up people. Any generic youtube search could verify this.

 

Any class not tank spec is not a tank. Rage and Focus are both damage specs.

Edited April 1, 2012 by MorgonKara

[KiranK]

I wouldn't object to some sort of anti-guard mechanic. Right now guard is simply there. Unless your tank is unconscious at his keyboard, staying within range is very easy. Get pushed? Guess what? All tanks have a leap or a sprint. They can even push back. Get stunned? Doesn't affect guard at all. When you get fights that are tank/healer vs. tank/healer then it's just an exercise is stupidity. Lalalalalaala, I can't kill you but you can't kill me. Let's all beat our skulls against the wall. For how squishy they are, DPS don't put out enough damage to make up for it. Tanks actually hit fairly well, especially Shadow/Assassin tanks. DPS can really only do one thing, maybe throw out a CC here and there(unless you're Mara/Sent). CCing the healer isn't exactly a great option either. Unless they let themselves get low, they'll be unCCed and at full resolve long before you kill them. Then they heal up and back to square one. There definitely needs to be a mechanic to counter this combination. I'd rather see that than a straight nerf to guard.