Jedi Shadow combatlog parses

[Veimi]

Hybrid kinetic, 27/0/14

 

http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/7502/hybridkinetic.png

 

Same gear, same buffs. Falls down quite a bit from infiltration and balance. Did a few 5-10 minutes with it and got similar results. About the skill names here, "Crushed" is Telekinetic Throw, I tested it.

 

About the skill names before, Crushed (Force) is force breach in force technique (dot)

Edited April 2, 2012 by Veimi

[Veimi]

I don't recognize some of the spells in the damage by spell analysis (balance) :

 

What is Crushed (Force)? Is it the DoT part of Mind Crush?

Or is the DoT part included in the Mind Crush entry?

Is this Force Breach?

 

If not:

Where is Force Breach?

 

Where is Spinning Strike? Target dummy at permanent 100% HP?

 

What is Dark Spike? Some sort of trinket proc?

 

I'll answer these separately although they've been answered already.

 

- Crushed (Force) = Force Breach with Force Technique

- Mind crush dot is included in mind crush damage

- Can't use spinning strike on dummy, it's 100% always

- Dark spike is relic proc from dark energy surge, deals internal damage every 4,5sec

[Veimi]

Did you test it out with other relic burst + F. Potency too?

 

I could do all the tests in the world if I only had time for it I'll try to fix something up for "use" relics later on.

[Philosomanic]

Well, I'm glad to see that Kinetic falls behind. However, the margin is disturbingly small. Going from Kinetic to Balance, you gain 13% DPS. However, you lose an extremely high amount of defensive capability. I'd expect a significantly higher damage difference between a tank spec and a pure DPS spec.

 

This is a pretty clear indication that our DPS specs need to be buffed, or Kinetic needs to be nerfed. Which one depends on how we balance with other classes.

[Veimi]

Well, I'm glad to see that Kinetic falls behind. However, the margin is disturbingly small. Going from Kinetic to Balance, you gain 13% DPS. However, you lose an extremely high amount of defensive capability. I'd expect a significantly higher damage difference between a tank spec and a pure DPS spec.

 

This is a pretty clear indication that our DPS specs need to be buffed, or Kinetic needs to be nerfed. Which one depends on how we balance with other classes.

 

Yet it's a significant amount if you do high-end pve. Haven't had trouble with survivability there, so hybrid kinetic definitely is an unwanted spec there. Don't know about pvp though, it's probably superior there to everything else.

[Zekeiele]

I was expecting Kinetic to be a lot closer considering all the PVP noise right now....looks like it probably needs a tweak down but honestly for pure tank spec Its probably perfect..I'm not sure how they can balance it without *********** up the actual tanks.

[Veimi]

31/0/10 in full rakata stalker gear. A bit bigger gap in dps than the 27/0/14 and this was expected. More telekinetic throw due to slow time which should be in everyone playing 31 kinetic's rotation.

 

http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/4323/kinetic.png

[Philosomanic]

Yeah, for PvE that's probably well-balanced. However, for PvP, there is a massive difference in survivability for a relatively small change in damage. I honestly don't think tanks should be doing that much damage. The numbers you've parsed for full tank spec seem more like what's fair.

 

Of course, the people who go Kinetic Hybrid really aren't helping their team. Balance and Infiltration do more DPS. Full Kinetic does significantly less, but they have loads of support, especially with slow time. Hybrid has neither the damage of Balance/Infil nor the support of Kinetic, so they're not all that good in terms of group strength. Still seem like they could use some adjustment for 1v1 strength, though.

[Zekeiele]

Yeah, for PvE that's probably well-balanced. However, for PvP, there is a massive difference in survivability for a relatively small change in damage. I honestly don't think tanks should be doing that much damage. The numbers you've parsed for full tank spec seem more like what's fair.

 

Of course, the people who go Kinetic Hybrid really aren't helping their team. Balance and Infiltration do more DPS. Full Kinetic does significantly less, but they have loads of support, especially with slow time. Hybrid has neither the damage of Balance/Infil nor the support of Kinetic, so they're not all that good in terms of group strength. Still seem like they could use some adjustment for 1v1 strength, though.

 

31/10 looks like around 20% DPS loss VS Inf....seems pretty close to inline to me but the 24/17 might be out of whack.

[Philosomanic]

31/10 looks like around 20% DPS loss VS Inf....seems pretty close to inline to me but the 24/17 might be out of whack.

 

Pretty much my thoughts exactly.

 

I'd like to see Balance inverted, so that some of the things that are Balance-specific (increased DoT crit heals, force suppression charges, etc.) come earlier, and the general buffs (force synergy, adjucation) come later in the tree. This would make levelling easier on Balance players, who really have it rough before those talents. It would also tone down the 24/17 Hybrid. Or something like that.

[Zekeiele]

Pretty much my thoughts exactly.

 

I'd like to see Balance inverted, so that some of the things that are Balance-specific (increased DoT crit heals, force suppression charges, etc.) come earlier, and the general buffs (force synergy, adjucation) come later in the tree. This would make levelling easier on Balance players, who really have it rough before those talents. It would also tone down the 24/17 Hybrid. Or something like that.

 

If you look at the curves 24/17 looks very "spikey" I'm guessing that translates to more burst...I've never tried that spec but It does look a lot different with just changing around 7 pts.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Zekeiele

[_Scattered_]

27/1/13 should do more damage...

[Veimi]

If you look at the curves 24/17 looks very "spikey" I'm guessing that translates to more burst...I've never tried that spec but It does look a lot different with just changing around 7 pts.

 

It is because you use more telekinetic throw on 31/0/10 build due to slow time. PA Project = spikes especially coupled with FP throw.

[Zekeiele]

Well I was rolling eyes in he PVP forum but maybe the "Hybrid" these guys talk about does need some adjusting...I only play KC and didn't really understand what they were talking about.

[stineo]

Well, I'm glad to see that Kinetic falls behind. However, the margin is disturbingly small. Going from Kinetic to Balance, you gain 13% DPS. However, you lose an extremely high amount of defensive capability. I'd expect a significantly higher damage difference between a tank spec and a pure DPS spec.

 

This is a pretty clear indication that our DPS specs need to be buffed, or Kinetic needs to be nerfed. Which one depends on how we balance with other classes.

 

Do tanks in PvE end game content wear DPS gear on raids?

[stineo]

Yeah, for PvE that's probably well-balanced. However, for PvP, there is a massive difference in survivability for a relatively small change in damage. I honestly don't think tanks should be doing that much damage. The numbers you've parsed for full tank spec seem more like what's fair.

 

Of course, the people who go Kinetic Hybrid really aren't helping their team. Balance and Infiltration do more DPS. Full Kinetic does significantly less, but they have loads of support, especially with slow time. Hybrid has neither the damage of Balance/Infil nor the support of Kinetic, so they're not all that good in terms of group strength. Still seem like they could use some adjustment for 1v1 strength, though.

 

Problem is how do you balance out PvE and PvP 1v1 combat without messing up the whole spec to hell?

 

People hate the fact that tanks don't pack a punch. Plus the stress of tanking, makes then even more of a minority in MMOs in general. There is a reason why people tend to avoid playing tanks and healers in MMOs. Too much stress and little play off. So asking for a nerf for tank spec damage to placate players that can't kill tanks 1 vs 1 in PvP seems a bit extreme.

[Fuggles]

if you take the stalker gear off and put survivor gear on youll notice those numbers plummet.

 

if you change the dps of the tank spec and just add more threat to compensate, playing a proper tank will be painfull while leveling or soloing.

 

what i wouldnt be supprised to see though is having them make force in balance require force technique.

[Neamhan]

Out of curiosity, what do the DPS numbers look like for a 31/0/10 in Survivor gear?

 

As to fixing the 'problem' of wearing DPS gear as a Kinetic (even though 20% less damage than a DPS spec even while wearing DPS gear doesn't seem out of line to me) they could just incentivize wearing the 'correct' gear by buffing the set bonuses but making them only apply while in the correct stance. ie: Survivor set bonuses only work with Combat Technique and the Stalker set bonuses only work in Shadow or Force Techniques.

 

Personally I wear almost all Survivor anyway, I just have two Stalker pieces because I like the utility the extra range on the interrupt and snare gives me.

 

Edit: Actually, thinking about it they wouldn't have to do anything as special as being in the correct stance, since they could just change the set bonuses to buff talents that only a particular spec could use anyway. Like the Survivor set could give nice buffs to high tier Kinetic talents while the Stalker could buff specific high tier Infiltration/Balance talents. Like for example the 2pc Stalker could buff Clairvoyant Strike and Sever Force, which is fine because you can't get both anyway. I know the Survivor already does that with the buff to Spinning Kick, which really wouldn't help Infiltration/Balance much even if for some reason they wanted to wear Survivor.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Neamhan

[Philosomanic]

Do tanks in PvE end game content wear DPS gear on raids?

 

No, tanks are fine for PvE. I don't see that as an issue. The issue I see is in PvP, where they can get a large defensive boost at the cost of a comparatively small drop in DPS.

 

 

 

Problem is how do you balance out PvE and PvP 1v1 combat without messing up the whole spec to hell?

 

People hate the fact that tanks don't pack a punch. Plus the stress of tanking, makes then even more of a minority in MMOs in general. There is a reason why people tend to avoid playing tanks and healers in MMOs. Too much stress and little play off. So asking for a nerf for tank spec damage to placate players that can't kill tanks 1 vs 1 in PvP seems a bit extreme.

 

Here's the thing. I think full Kinetic spec is very well-balanced. You get lower offense, higher defense, and greater support/utility. I don't think full Kinetic needs to be touched.

 

It's the Hybrid 27/14 (or similar) builds that I think need some adjusting. If you look at these numbers, they have within 10% or so of the DPS specs. However, they have well over 10% defense increase. They have a base of +9% internal/elemental reduction and +10-15% kinetic/energy reduction. They also get significantly higher shield/defense rates (which are really good against some classes), and strong self-healing abilities. So they get a defensive increase of maybe 15% against Sorcs, and 30% or more against weapon-damage reliant classes, but only lose 10-15% DPS.

 

That's where I think the imbalance is. The "31+/x/x" specs are balanced (in my mind), but the Hybrid spec is a little over the top. In my mind, you shouldn't have one spec with high damage, lots of utility, and high defenses all in one.

 

• Kinetic has high defense and utility, but low damage.
  
• Balance and Infiltration both have very high damage, low utility, and very low defenses.
  
• Hybrid has damage near Balance/Infiltration, high defenses (as high as Kinetic), and high utility (Force Pull, Stasis, Mind Over Matter).
  

Edited April 2, 2012 by Philosomanic

[Zintair]

Well, I'm glad to see that Kinetic falls behind. However, the margin is disturbingly small. Going from Kinetic to Balance, you gain 13% DPS. However, you lose an extremely high amount of defensive capability. I'd expect a significantly higher damage difference between a tank spec and a pure DPS spec.

 

This is a pretty clear indication that our DPS specs need to be buffed, or Kinetic needs to be nerfed. Which one depends on how we balance with other classes.

 

Not the case in this game. Tanks bring relevant DPS to the raids as well. 13% is a pretty good margin.

 

And thats the slightly hybrid FiB spec. If you changed all of that to Slow Time the Rotation changes dramatically and the DPS lowers.

 

More TKT / More Slow Time = lower DPS but better survivability.

 

I think we are looking at a 15+% jump from tank spec to DPS and we are definitely the hardest hitting tank.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Zintair

[Zintair]

No, tanks are fine for PvE. I don't see that as an issue. The issue I see is in PvP, where they can get a large defensive boost at the cost of a comparatively small drop in DPS.

 

 

 

 

 

Here's the thing. I think full Kinetic spec is very well-balanced. You get lower offense, higher defense, and greater support/utility. I don't think full Kinetic needs to be touched.

 

It's the Hybrid 27/14 (or similar) builds that I think need some adjusting. If you look at these numbers, they have within 10% or so of the DPS specs. However, they have well over 10% defense increase. They have a base of +9% internal/elemental reduction and +10-15% kinetic/energy reduction. They also get significantly higher shield/defense rates (which are really good against some classes), and strong self-healing abilities. So they get a defensive increase of maybe 15% against Sorcs, and 30% or more against weapon-damage reliant classes, but only lose 10-15% DPS.

 

That's where I think the imbalance is. The "31+/x/x" specs are balanced (in my mind), but the Hybrid spec is a little over the top. In my mind, you shouldn't have one spec with high damage, lots of utility, and high defenses all in one.

 

• Kinetic has high defense and utility, but low damage.
  
• Balance and Infiltration both have very high damage, low utility, and very low defenses.
  
• Hybrid has damage near Balance/Infiltration, high defenses (as high as Kinetic), and high utility (Force Pull, Stasis, Mind Over Matter).
  

 

I think you vastly over-estimate the Tankability of a hybrid spec'd Shadow with DPS gear.

 

VASTLY.

 

You guys are looking at numbers too much and not actual viability. This spec is mediocre at best now for the role you are trying to fill. Yo will never have the burst of Infiltration or sustained of Balance or the survival/peel effectiveness of 31/0/10.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Zintair

[Zintair]

if you take the stalker gear off and put survivor gear on youll notice those numbers plummet.

 

if you change the dps of the tank spec and just add more threat to compensate, playing a proper tank will be painfull while leveling or soloing.

 

what i wouldnt be supprised to see though is having them make force in balance require force technique.

 

This would not be a nerf and if it would make the scrubs shut up I approve.

 

Any good Shadow Tanks don't rely on FiB. Period.

[_Scattered_]

PvP full KC does not double strike much if at all, so the parse with 25% damage from double strike is not a realistic model.

 

Project/slow time are spammed when off cd to maximise HS stacking and are too force starved to use double strike as filler. The main draw of full KC is double the rate of HS stacking, slow time debuffs/aoe is just icing on the cake.

 

27/?/12(2) builds are PA procing builds which is why adjudication is proffered due to heavy double strike usage.

[matekwong]

Thx for the data Veimi

 

Is it possible for you to parse a PVP result of this Balanced spec (0/10/31)?

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#601ZhGbZcMfRrMkrfz.1

 

thank you!

Edited April 3, 2012 by matekwong

[Anelyn]

They could just make FiB require Force Tehnique to be usable, and bai bai hybrid KC/balance spec. Simple as that.

 

PS: none will pick fib over slow time as a main KC tree user for rated anyway, slow time is invaluable, being able to snare more than half of enemy team to give time to your team to get to a turret or door or run ball etc, compared to moderate 3 target damage every 15s (without 30% surge bonus from deep balance as well).

 

For me personally, slow time is most used ability in any premade pvp situation, is simply put best spell in KC tree in a pvp situation. Lowest force cost, aoe, snare. Now only if they would move containment to tier 1 or 2 in balance