Pvp imbalence from the perspective of a Sin.

[goz_-]

Since you are obviously not done send me please a PM where you defend operatives or not demand a buff for inf-shadows. I'm really curious now because I can't find one except the utility one you answered to my post recently. Edited April 1, 2012 by goz_-

[Sinemetu]

@HyperThomas:

 

The damage it absorbs doesn't matter (it varies anyway, + no concrete evidence), the fact that the defensive CDs are much, much shorter than a Shadow infiltration, is enough to prove my point.

 

Baloney. It absorbs about 2k. You can look at the healing coefficient and modifier to find this, and it doesn't vary at all. 7085 * .13 + healingpower * 2.59. There's no mystery here and 2k is significantly worse than 3k.

 

If you're facing an operative that can heal for 5k during a 4s stun, then he has points in healing. Since you refuse to compare the dps operative to a hybrid shadow, I don't think comparing the dps shadow to a hybrid operative is remotely relevant.

[petsa]

so operatives are more effective than sins?

[Squatdog_nz]

1) Once again your reading skills are proven to be awful. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT INFILTRATION SHADOW HERE, THE BURST SPEC. OPERATIVES HAVE BETTER BURST THAN THE BURST FROM INFILTRATION. BURST IS INFILTRATIONS ROLE.

 

Burst from stealth ISN'T Infiltration's role and Infiltration has FAR higher sustained DPS than any Operative spec AND far more burst outside of stealth.

 

2) Unless you can prove the bubble absorbs nowhere near 3k damage then you have no idea what you are talking about. Cooldown is still way faster, I like how you are avoiding this point.

 

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHA!!!!

 

Once again, you have absolutely NO IDEA what you are talking about. Go post this on the Operative forum so people can laugh at you.

 

 

3) Operatives can heal in combat, shadows cannot, ALSO INFILTRATION SHADOW DOES NOT HAVE INSTANT PROCCING HEALS, LEARN TO READ, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT INFILTRATION SHADOWS. YOU CLEARLY HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

 

Except they can cross spec into Madness and proc insta-heals.

 

The operative heal is viable in combat situations, whenever I face a dps burst operative, I get them down to 3kish, they stun me and can heal like 5k+ health in that period.

 

Didn't happen.

 

Now you are just making things up.

 

They can also then cloak run around an object to heal up, WHILE STILL IN COMBAT. YOU CLEARLY HAVE NO IDEA ABOUT OPERATIVE. Shadow infiltration can only heal out of combat, cloak rarely breaks combat, especially with dots/other duration effects.

 

Operatives can cloak while in combat now? LOL!

 

Or do you mean the vanish that they share with Assassins, who can ALSO heal outside of combat with Seethe?

 

4) 30% armor bonus hahahah, this by far is the most ridiculous thing you have said so far. It is 30% armor rating bonus, which is like 2% extra reduction? Lol, so funny.

 

So it IS a less than 10% difference, like I said?

 

5) My other points too good to retort? HAH! As expected.

 

What other points?

[MrXen]

There is a reason that people are so upset about the assassin class not receiving any nerfs. Posts like this will just make people even more upset.

 

Sin's will be great in 1.2, but look how many cry posts there are already. You will be getting nerfed, before you receive anything that even looks remotely like a buff.

 

 

The poster is talking about a non-tank spec, meaning you are a moron for thinking a nerf is needed.

 

 

Tank assassin isn't that overpowered at all, and is the ONLY worth-while spec for assassins, hence all the users of it. The reason everyone is crying about tank-assassins now is because they cried about deception damage being "OP" and caused a massive destruction to the other two trees while BW thought "hey give them something in return and buff the tank tree" so they did. And here we sit.

 

 

I don't want to have to play tank assassin to not be worthless, and its annoying when playing this spec (to actually try and be helpful to your team) that people claim its "overpowered" because its actually a threat now.

 

 

 

 

The only thing that could be >COULD BE< done to "tone down" tank assassin is reduce all the healing available >SLIGHTLY< and it would be perfectly in balance.

[MrXen]

1) Once again your reading skills are proven to be awful. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT INFILTRATION SHADOW HERE, THE BURST SPEC. OPERATIVES HAVE BETTER BURST THAN THE BURST FROM INFILTRATION. BURST IS INFILTRATIONS ROLE.

 

Burst from stealth ISN'T Infiltration's role and Infiltration has FAR higher sustained DPS than any Operative spec AND far more burst outside of stealth.

 

 

 

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHA!!!!

 

Once again, you have absolutely NO IDEA what you are talking about. Go post this on the Operative forum so people can laugh at you.

 

 

 

 

Except they can cross spec into Madness and proc insta-heals.

 

 

 

Didn't happen.

 

Now you are just making things up.

 

 

 

Operatives can cloak while in combat now? LOL!

 

Or do you mean the vanish that they share with Assassins, who can ALSO heal outside of combat with Seethe?

 

 

 

So it IS a less than 10% difference, like I said?

 

 

 

What other points?

 

 

Ignoring your lack of complete thoughts (e.g. sentences) and your caps-lock cruise control, I'll bite.

 

 

No deception assassin wanting to keep the mediocre DPS its capable of (in trade of laughable dps) will give up 15+ points in the deception tree to spec into madness in order to get a 2% hp heal that "procs" as you claim off of a 6 second cooldown ability that hits like a pillow.

 

 

In fact everything you said makes near zero sense in terms of logic and/or common sense, and I'd be honestly surprised if ANYTHING of what you said was actually even partially true.

Edited April 1, 2012 by MrXen

[Squatdog_nz]

 

 

Ignoring your lack of complete thoughts (e.g. sentences) and your caps-lock cruise control, I'll bite.

 

 

No deception assassin wanting to keep the mediocre DPS its capable of (in trade of laughable dps) will give up 15+ points in the deception tree to spec into madness in order to get a 2% hp heal that "procs" as you claim off of a 6 second cooldown ability that hits like a pillow.

 

 

In fact everything you said makes near zero sense in terms of logic and/or common sense, and I'd be honestly surprised if ANYTHING of what you said was actually even partially true.

 

Everything I have stated is 100% correct.

 

Tell me again how a sub-2k bubble is better mitigation that 12 seconds of 50% Dodge. LOL!

[HyperThomas]

1) Once again your reading skills are proven to be awful. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT INFILTRATION SHADOW HERE, THE BURST SPEC. OPERATIVES HAVE BETTER BURST THAN THE BURST FROM INFILTRATION. BURST IS INFILTRATIONS ROLE.

 

Burst from stealth ISN'T Infiltration's role and Infiltration has FAR higher sustained DPS than any Operative spec AND far more burst outside of stealth.

 

Yeah it is, infiltrations role is burst from stealth, you have no idea what you are talking about

 

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHA!!!!

 

Once again, you have absolutely NO IDEA what you are talking about. Go post this on the Operative forum so people can laugh at you.

 

Even if it only absorbs 2k damage, i feel it would be far better than an ability that makes me dodge 50% of the time, which is on a far longer cooldown. Though that's a matter of opinion.

 

 

Except they can cross spec into Madness and proc insta-heals.

 

When they do this they lose their burst potential (gotta waste like 20 points just to get up to the healing procs), there is only one spec to be bursty. Once again, no idea what you are talking about.

 

Didn't happen.

 

Now you are just making things up.

 

Yeah it did happen. Not making things up, maybe the heals were a little off the mark, I will say around the 5k mark.

 

Operatives can cloak while in combat now? LOL!

 

Or do you mean the vanish that they share with Assassins, who can ALSO heal outside of combat with Seethe?

 

Like I said, operatives can heal while still in combat, inf shadows cannot. Try to read what I have said, in combat heals are far better than out of combat heals.

 

So it IS a less than 10% difference, like I said?

 

Only if you spec into it, and not many infiltrations do. (2% is a waste of 2 points) Operatives have 8-10% better damage reduction than a inf shadow. Thanks for continuing to support my point.

 

What other points?

5th point page 4 no retort.

 

All of your points are totally flawed, not only are you making stuff up about the shadow, you have no idea what spec you are talking about, you have no idea about the abilities, and you clearly have no idea about the difference between in combat healing and out of combat healing. Simple fact is, you have been posting absolute rubbish about the infiltration shadow, next to nothing you have said is true.

I have said operative can use a utility buff... happy?

I am calling for nerfs for MY OWN CLASS (KC Tree), never saw you do that.

Stop posting, you have lost all credibility.

[AMKSED]

I find it funny that people are comparing Operative to the hybrid Shadow/Assassin. When it should be compared to Infiltration and when it comes down to that Operative wins, hands down.

[HyperThomas]

I find it funny that people are comparing Operative to the hybrid Shadow/Assassin. When it should be compared to Infiltration and when it comes down to that Operative wins, hands down.

 

Thankyou! lol

This person clearly has no idea about the difference between the 2 specs.

[Quesadilla]

First: Defensive Cooldowns.

As a Assassin I have two defensive cooldowns. Deflection which gives 50% Melee / Ranged deflection for 12 seconds, as a Deception sin this raises my defense to 60% which is almost pointless overall. I personally have noticed that it really makes little difference when other classes have flat Damage reduction or abilities that cleave clean through us while it is up. Our other is Force Shroud and makes us immune to Tech / Force powers (stuns included) for 3 seconds.

 

Of these, I do believe that Force Shroud is not under nor overpowered, it's fairly balanced. However, I see that Deflection is flatly -ineffective- as any spec but Darkness. I understand we are not meant to be high survival due to our damage as Deception (my prefered spec on my Assassin) but the "Cooldown" itself is utterly useless, I've used it and had a Jugger and Mara rip me apart in 1-1 fights, while their defensive cooldowns as dps are *very* strong.

Improvements: Two suggestions I have for this are, a) Raise the defense chance from 50% to 75% (Giving 85% Parry / Deflect) for 12 seconds, making it an effective cooldown, perhaps shorten the duration a little if that's the choice. b) leave it at 50% and add 35-50% Damage reduction to actually make us consider actually popping as more then a joke.

 

ROTFLMFAO, an Assassin complaining about defensive cooldowns, this is just a troll, right? Your god mode can be used twice as often as Marauders', which is their only respectable cooldown, and you think you're entitled to more? And if you're against a sentinel/marauder or sniper/gunslinger, you have a separate cooldown just for that. If your defense chance is above 50% against either of those classes, you already have the upper hand, especially if the cooldown lasts 12 seconds.

Edited April 1, 2012 by Quesadilla

[urgha]

Tank sin is beyond good or bad spec. It is just godlike.

About dd specs:

Operative double opener will be fixed in 1.2. The dd sin can burst harder than operative, he just cannot do it right from stealth. I really don't see any real advantages of operative except very fast killing of undergeared or low hp people.

[Squatdog_nz]

 

All of your points are totally flawed, not only are you making stuff up about the shadow, you have no idea what spec you are talking about, you have no idea about the abilities, and you clearly have no idea about the difference between in combat healing and out of combat healing. Simple fact is, you have been posting absolute rubbish about the infiltration shadow, next to nothing you have said is true.

I have said operative can use a utility buff... happy?

I am calling for nerfs for MY OWN CLASS (KC Tree), never saw you do that.

Stop posting, you have lost all credibility.

 

LOL@all of this...

 

It's impossible to take anything you say seriously when you claim that a sub-2k bubble is actually BETTER than a tanking ability that gives 50% increase to dodge over 12 seconds. This is quite possibly the single dumbest thing I have ever read on this forum.

 

Then there's these mythical Operatives who are healing for huge amounts within the space of a 4second stun (instead of attacking) and cloaking while in combat.

 

Riiiiight....

[Sinemetu]

As a healer, I'm a lot more worried about having a dps shadow on me than I am an operative. Operative burst is overrated, and they just don't have the tools to pressure a healer and stay on target like an assassin has. As for burst, yes, operatives can burst for 5k... from stealth. I've been hit by shadows outside of stealth for the same. Mercs can do the same, and I've never seen it but I understand Juggernauts and Pyrotechs can as well.

 

Utility:

 

Assassins:

 

Base:

 

Force Shroud (3s of immunity to tech/force attacks, talented up to 5s on a 1m/45s CD)

Deflection (+50% defense for 12 seconds)

Vanish (3/2 minute cooldown)

Sprint (+150% speed for 2s on a 30s/20s talented CD)

Knockback (PBAOE on a 30s CD)

Stun (4s, 30y range, 1m/50s CD)

Spike (2s knockdown on a 30s CD, only from stealth)

Taunt, AOE Taunt (30% less damage to allies)

Sleep (10y range, 75% of resolve bar)

 

Talents:

 

Force Pull

Low Slash (4s mez on a 15s CD, single target)

 

Operatives:

 

Base:

 

Evasion (+100% chance to dodge for 2s, 1m/45s CD)

Shield Probe (Absorb ~2000 damage, 45s/30s CD)

Vanish (3/2 minute CD)

Flashbang (targeted AOE 8s mez, must be facing target, 10y range, 1m CD)

Stun (4s, 10y range, 1m/45s CD)

Sleep (10y range, fills resolve bar)

 

Talents:

 

Jarring Strike (2s knockdown, requires stealth, must be behind target)

 

Force Shroud > Shield Probe on a similar CD, and Deflection has pros and cons when compared to Evasion. I would compare Evasion to Force Shroud (both remove dots), except Force Shroud is just so much better it's really not fair.

[HyperThomas]

 

LOL@all of this...

 

It's impossible to take anything you say seriously when you claim that a sub-2k bubble is actually BETTER than a tanking ability that gives 50% increase to dodge over 12 seconds. This is quite possibly the single dumbest thing I have ever read on this forum.

 

Then there's these mythical Operatives who are healing for huge amounts within the space of a 4second stun (instead of attacking) and cloaking while in combat.

 

Riiiiight....

 

I never said it was better, I was merely proving shadows defensive abilities are not better than an operatives (like you stated), they are on the same level, considering the operatives CD is 30/45 seconds, and the assassins is 120 seconds.

I said 5k health was healed in the example battle I gave, I never said "an operative always heals 5k in a stun" It was a rough estimate, just by watching his health bar.

Considering the fact infiltration shadows cannot even heal while in combat is enough to prove my point. You don't even know operatives can cloak while in combat? hahahahaha you are so bad.

 

All my other points too good to argue against? As expected... try harder next time.

 

 

Here is a list of things you have said that prove you have lost credibility:

Burst from stealth ISN'T Infiltration's role and Infiltration has FAR higher sustained DPS than any Operative spec AND far more burst outside of stealth.

Everything here = Wrong. Shadow Infiltration Role = Burst. Sustained DPS = NO... 6 seconds out of stealth of decent force regen. You call 6 seconds sustained? HAH.

 

Operatives can cloak while in combat now? LOL!

HAH yes they can.

 

Except they can cross spec into Madness and proc insta-heals.

INFILTRATION SHADOWS CANNOT DO THIS.

 

Tell me again how a sub-2k bubble is better mitigation that 12 seconds of 50% Dodge. LOL!

Never said it was better, was defending from you claiming that the shadow abillity was better... CD is 30 seconds for op with talents, CD is 120 seconds for infiltration shadows. (even if it was possible for shadow to avoid 8k damage in 12 seconds, 4 bubbles x 2k health = 8k. Simple math. They are very similar abilities when calculated this way, matter of opinion as to which one is better.

 

Nothing you say is ever right, I suggest you just stop. You clearly have no idea about shadow infiltration OR operative, you don't bother to read clearly what I have posted (you take little things I say out of context), and you don't even know what the operative abilities are. And I am the one that cannot be taken seriously? Hah you are only kidding yourself. Everyone else has the common sense to see where you are going wrong.

 

But like I said, if you like being proven wrong over and over again by me, go ahead, continue this pointless arguing, you are only embarrassing yourself.

Edited April 2, 2012 by HyperThomas

[cuteypie]

As a healer, I'm a lot more worried about having a dps shadow on me than I am an operative. Operative burst is overrated, and they just don't have the tools to pressure a healer and stay on target like an assassin has. As for burst, yes, operatives can burst for 5k... from stealth. I've been hit by shadows outside of stealth for the same. Mercs can do the same, and I've never seen it but I understand Juggernauts and Pyrotechs can as well.

 

Utility:

 

Assassins:

 

Base:

 

Force Shroud (3s of immunity to tech/force attacks, talented up to 5s on a 1m/45s CD)

Deflection (+50% defense for 12 seconds)

Vanish (3/2 minute cooldown)

Sprint (+150% speed for 2s on a 30s/20s talented CD)

Knockback (PBAOE on a 30s CD)

Stun (4s, 30y range, 1m/50s CD)

Spike (2s knockdown on a 30s CD, only from stealth)

Taunt, AOE Taunt (30% less damage to allies)

Sleep (10y range, 75% of resolve bar)

 

Talents:

 

Force Pull

Low Slash (4s mez on a 15s CD, single target)

 

Operatives:

 

Base:

 

Evasion (+100% chance to dodge for 2s, 1m/45s CD)

Shield Probe (Absorb ~2000 damage, 45s/30s CD)

Vanish (3/2 minute CD)

Flashbang (targeted AOE 8s mez, must be facing target, 10y range, 1m CD)

Stun (4s, 10y range, 1m/45s CD)

Sleep (10y range, fills resolve bar)

 

Talents:

 

Jarring Strike (2s knockdown, requires stealth, must be behind target)

 

Force Shroud > Shield Probe on a similar CD, and Deflection has pros and cons when compared to Evasion. I would compare Evasion to Force Shroud (both remove dots), except Force Shroud is just so much better it's really not fair.

 

/thread no need to add anything after this post, never.

[AMKSED]

 

LOL@all of this...

 

It's impossible to take anything you say seriously when you claim that a sub-2k bubble is actually BETTER than a tanking ability that gives 50% increase to dodge over 12 seconds. This is quite possibly the single dumbest thing I have ever read on this forum.

 

Then there's these mythical Operatives who are healing for huge amounts within the space of a 4second stun (instead of attacking) and cloaking while in combat.

 

Riiiiight....

 

I would much rather take the bubble over Deflection. Isn't the bubble ability on like a 45 sec CD? I have no idea what type of CD it has though.

[xfightx]

cool story bro.

 

and i am scoundrel:O

how should i feel?

LOL

[me_unknown]

This.

 

OP is a terribad.

 

Assassins need huge nerfs:

 

- Force shroud removed (deflection is closer to the defensive cooldown operatives get)

- Dark charge gives 50% damage penalty / 100% threat bonus, so they can still tank in PVE

- Force pull removed (operatives have 0 gap closers, why should assassins have 2)

 

arguing with a comparison to operatives is a big fail! they are two different classes. they differ in many ways. thus there is no logic in your arguments!

[HyperThomas]

 

I would much rather take the bubble over Deflection. Isn't the bubble ability on like a 45 sec CD? I have no idea what type of CD it has though.

Your quote is broken lol, looks like I said it

Cooldown can be 30 seconds.

Edited April 2, 2012 by HyperThomas

[FixerFortyKay]

An Operative/Scoundrel is an Assassin/Shadow that does less damage, has no sprint, no grab, no knockback, no ranged stun and nothing to make up for it's lower damage, lack of sprint, no knockback and no ranged stun.

 

Oh but we can barely heal.

 

Then you get to play Huttball more than any other WZ.

 

Before asking for buffs for your class, consider that it's the easy mode version of Operative/Scoundrel.

[HyperThomas]

Let's talk about the defensive CDs of Infiltration/Operative:

 

Operative gets:

100% Dodge for 3 seconds on a 60/45 second cooldown.

Shadow Gets:

100% Immunity to force/tech attacks for 3 seconds on a 60 second cooldown.

Operative Clearly the winner here.

 

 

Operative gets:

Shield Probe absorbs 2000 damage, 45/30 second cooldown.

Shadow gets:

50% dodge for 12 seconds on a 120 second cooldown.

Here an operative is guaranteed 7-8k damage reduction (with talents), in the same time period a shadow will probably dodge 63% of attacks, with an average damage hit of say 1200?

1v1 for 12 seconds, oponent doing 1200 damage every 1.5 seconds (GCD) = 9600 damage done in a period of 12 seconds against the Shadow.

63% of that number and we have our average for what our defense bubble absorbs.

9600 x .63 = 6048 damage (on average) (Could be +/- 2k damage.)

Operative wins here in reliability.

 

 

Ontop of this ops have the following things that can be used in a defensive way:

AOE Mez

In combat heals

10% more damage reduction (armor)

 

Infiltrations weak defense in comparison is balanced out by a 2 second sprint, a knockback, and some taunts (useless 1v1)

 

It would appear people in this thread are comparing the "Hybrid" Tank Shadow to the Operative or just getting mixed up... Anyone that does this is just crazy. They cannot burst, they are a sustainable DPS class with survivability that is slightly better than a Marauder. Shadow Tank spec and Marauder both need a nerf. Marauder needs a survivability nerf, Shadow Tank needs a DPS nerf.

 

I would be happy for operatives to be buffed in the utility, if infiltrations were buffed up in the defense.

 

That is all. /thread.

[HyperThomas]

An Operative/Scoundrel is an Assassin/Shadow that does less damage, has no sprint, no grab, no knockback, no ranged stun and nothing to make up for it's lower damage, lack of sprint, no knockback and no ranged stun.

 

Oh but we can barely heal.

 

Then you get to play Huttball more than any other WZ.

 

Before asking for buffs for your class, consider that it's the easy mode version of Operative/Scoundrel.

 

Read above. Don't kid yourself with the damage, they are on the same level, also, infiltrations do not have a grab.

 

Ops make up in the defense where they miss out in the utility. Quit QQing.

Edited April 2, 2012 by HyperThomas

[FixerFortyKay]

So Operatives are better if we make complete assumptions on incoming damage created solely for the purpose of making Operatives look better, counting out damage reduction from talents tree and the defensive bonuses of effective ranged stuns, snares, knockbacks and mobility in a group PVP environment.

 

Also if we ignore DPS testing that shows shadows running greater sustained DPS against single tagets. If we say Operatives have greater burst damage, which was nerfed, in a metagame where excessive heals require sustained damage to take down targets unless you're triple teaming someone down.

 

Gotcha.

[HyperThomas]

So Operatives are better if we make complete assumptions on incoming damage created solely for the purpose of making Operatives look better, counting out damage reduction from talents tree and the defensive bonuses of effective ranged stuns, snares, knockbacks and mobility in a group PVP environment.

 

1200 per hit is a very reasonable number, don't try that one. I have clearly said before that the utility is where the Shadow Infiltration makes up for the lack of defense compared to a operative. Shadow Infiltration abilities include a taunt, 1 snare, 1 range stun, a knockback and a sprint. Operative has in combat heals, area mez, 2 superior defensive abilities, 10% more damage reduction.

 

Also if we ignore DPS testing that shows shadows running greater sustained DPS against single tagets. If we say Operatives have greater burst damage, which was nerfed, in a metagame where excessive heals require sustained damage to take down targets unless you're triple teaming someone down.

Once again someone has fallen into the trap of getting the specs mixed up, Shadows infiltrations force regen rate is awful after 6 seconds out of cloak, to the point where an ability can only be activated every 3-4ish seconds. You are getting mixed up with the tank spec, that is the spec that does the sustained damage.

 

Gotcha.

 

As I stated earlier, Operatives should be utility buffed, Infiltration Shadows should get a defensive buff. This will close the gap and make each one as effective as each other.

 

I proved all of this in my above post, you clearly didn't read it all, quit trolling please.

 

Try again.

Edited April 2, 2012 by HyperThomas