How do you beat a Vanguard?

[Humankeg]

Can't interupt anything worthwhile that a vanguard does in a fight. So don't bother. Marauders are a direct counter to vangaurds/powertechs. I would suggest dueling a lot more.

[dwgagner]

Before i elaborate more, please keep everything constructive and civil. I really don't want this to turn into an "so and so is OP and so and so needs a buff" thread where there is mindless arguments with no basis.

 

 

 

 

That being said, i'm a Sith Warrior (Marauder) and i have a VERY difficult time killing Vanguards. My typical strategy for fighting them is to try to sneak up and immediately apply a movement slow and get my bleeds up. As soon as i get my bleeds rolling i use force choke to let the bleeds tick while hes choking. When the chock ends i'll chain defensive CD's.

 

 

If get out of melee range / stunned i immediately use my free movement ability and lleap back in, trying to keep all my bleeds rolling at all times while constantly trying to get behind him to prevent channeled abilities. i interrupt everything i possibly can when i see it casting.

 

 

I can almost never beat one of these guys. I'll only get em to 30-40% health in a Wazrzone before losing to him in most circumstances. I seem to do a very good job at staying in melee range and interupting them, but i just can't seem to bring one down.

 

Any advice? I'm using medpacs ofc.

 

As a 50 Vanguard I see a couple flaws, not going to give a detailed rundown but basically as an assault spec vanguard (pyro spec BH mirror).

 

I don't use channeled abilities very often, we really only have like 3 and they aren't very useful or practical in a 1 on 1.

 

Meaning you're probably wasting time trying to interrupt, every interrupt you use is extra damage you could be applying. Interrupts are great though if you're fighting a commando or a merc if they are specced arsenal etc as they rely heavily on channeled abilities, same as lightning spec sorcs or their sage counter specs.

 

My advice, see if you fair any better by dropping interrupt out of your rotation when fighting vanguards.

 

Either way though it'll be a daunting task to take down a beefy class as a squishy dps, your only hope is to put out FAR more dps then them since you can't absorb as much them.

[jitsuo]

Either way though it'll be a daunting task to take down a beefy class as a squishy dps, your only hope is to put out FAR more dps then them since you can't absorb as much them.

 

I'm sorry but this is complete BS. Armor means next to nothing in this game, and PT Pyro is one of the squishiest classes in the game due to lack of CD's. Marauder can absorb MUCH more damage with their defensive CD's+Bleed heals, also, Marauders have higher sustained DPS and Obsfucate takes out PT's frontload burst.

 

All and all, Marauders should have zero trouble dealing with a PT or a VG. I made a compendium about how to beat PT's on the Marauder forums, here's a link to it

 

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=378099

[Zunayson]

I don't think I have any melee attacks. I mentioned Shockstrike because someone said that people that use Shockstrike are tanks, which isn't necessarily true.

 

You can't electrocute anyone with stockstrike unless you invested two - five points in the tank tree, and are running Ion Cell.

[Zunayson]

I say again, Obsfucate makes Rail Shot USELESS during its duration. To those that are saying that Obsfucate doesn't work, please hear this out.

 

Rail Shot is WEAPON DAMAGE, that's why it's WHITE. Obsfucate decreases WEAPON DAMAGE ACCURACY by 90%.

 

Obsfucate is key for destroying a PT/VG

 

People say vanguards, they meant assault vanguards. The only vanguards that ever use white damage are assault vanguards that obviously use High Impact Bolt. Yes, it works well on them for that one move, but it won't do anything against tanks or tactics, because it's all "Spell damage" (Tech, really, but Tech is force by game mechanics, and force is spells by lore... so Tech is spell).

[jitsuo]

People say vanguards, they meant assault vanguards. The only vanguards that ever use white damage are assault vanguards that obviously use High Impact Bolt. Yes, it works well on them for that one move, but it won't do anything against tanks or tactics, because it's all "Spell damage" (Tech, really, but Tech is force by game mechanics, and force is spells by lore... so Tech is spell).

 

Tactics Vanguards are not that much of a problem either. They do even LESS DPS and your defensive CD's are still much better.

 

If a VG is full tank then your bleeds will be able to overpower him (unmitigateable, or at least VERY little mitigation). Though he mitigates most of your damage, you should still beat him because:

 

1. You have constant self heals

 

2. Your DPS>>>>his DPS

 

If he's tank/assault hybrid then he's still using High Impact Bolt, which Obsfucate messes up.

 

Either way, an Anni Marauder has self heals and great defensive CD's along with high DPS.

 

A PT Pyro must choose high burst, high mitigation, sub par-ness (tactics), or tanky DPS. An Anni Marauder has an answer to each spec.

Edited March 31, 2012 by jitsuo

[rweiowjerwei]

My buddy is Bounty Hunter, and we duel every no and then (we are the same level with roughly the same gear) and i have no troubles beating him. I'll usually win with 20-30% health left using the tactics i listed in the original post.

 

Your buddy may not be as good as the players you are facing.

 

It's like me and my friend (I'm SW, he's BH). We have been PVPing a lot lately and I jokingly challenged him to a duel, but he refused saying that "He knows how it would end" implying that he wouldnt stand a chance.

[TheNegotiator]

Your buddy may not be as good as the players you are facing.

 

It's like me and my friend (I'm SW, he's BH). We have been PVPing a lot lately and I jokingly challenged him to a duel, but he refused saying that "He knows how it would end" implying that he wouldnt stand a chance.

 

I got news for you. Any dps spec'd BH will utterly wreck any tank class. If they can't they don't know what they are doing. You have no defense against his attacks except maybe one interrupt before he kills you. In fact your armor class might as well be zero there is not much difference. As a vanguard I have to harass any BH I see because he will kill 5 people in 60 seconds if I don't do it. I know I am going to die unless a healer is with me but better one than 5. One today hit me for 8k on his first attack. That's 1/2 my health gone instantly. Good luck fighting your BH buddy.

[jitsuo]

I got news for you. Any dps spec'd BH will utterly wreck any tank class. If they can't they don't know what they are doing. You have no defense against his attacks except maybe one interrupt before he kills you. In fact your armor class might as well be zero there is not much difference. As a vanguard I have to harass any BH I see because he will kill 5 people in 60 seconds if I don't do it. I know I am going to die unless a healer is with me but better one than 5. One today hit me for 8k on his first attack. That's 1/2 my health gone instantly. Good luck fighting your BH buddy.

 

1. Kinetic Shadows and Darkness Sins utterly destroy PT's

 

2. He didn't crit you for 8k, that's one of the stupidest lies I've ever heard. Juggy Smashs can barely hit above 6k. Any Marauder with half a brain will destroy all PT's. A Pt can use Thermal detonator+Rail shot as an opener to hit 8k if both crit, but Obsfucate just leaves a Thermal detonator hit along with denying him burst for its duration. Use Saber Ward right after that and there's a 1/2 chance that his Rail Shots won't hit.

 

What's a PT Pyro without Rail Shot? A joke

 

3. If a PT consistently kills 5 people in 60 seconds, he was a Champ/BM geared one that was accidentally dropped into a 1-49 bracket. He would need TD+RS to both crit and then have 2 Critical Rail Shot procs in a row per kill for that to be possible.

Edited March 31, 2012 by jitsuo

[TheNegotiator]

1. Kinetic Shadows and Darkness Sins utterly destroy PT's

 

2. He didn't crit you for 8k, that's one of the stupidest lies I've ever heard. Juggy Smashs can barely hit above 6k. Any Marauder with half a brain will destroy all PT's. A Pt can use Thermal detonator+Rail shot as an opener to hit 8k if both crit, but Obsfucate just leaves a Thermal detonator hit along with denying him burst for its duration. Use Saber Ward right after that and there's a 1/2 chance that his Rail Shots won't hit.

 

What's a PT Pyro without Rail Shot? A joke

 

3. If a PT consistently kills 5 people in 60 seconds, he was a Champ/BM geared one that was accidentally dropped into a 1-49 bracket. He would need TD+RS to both crit and then have 2 Critical Rail Shot procs in a row per kill for that to be possible.

 

What makes you think I'm talking about a Pyro? Pyro is not a dps class...it's a tank class...try arsenal based Merc.

 

Perhaps you've never played against them? If you haven't played level 50 PVP on the Republic side you don't know. Try taking a opening salvo of heat missiles plus tracer missile with a few crits added in...8k is not a problem I see it every day. Merc is the only class on the battlefield I have to worry about because of the insane dps with no mitigation. 55 kills in a Huttball game is common.

[broganthomas]

I have a 50 vanguard and sent/maras would burn me up pretty quickly. Just keep snares on him and don't let him kite you, and once he's out of ammo he's done.

[dwgagner]

I'm sorry but this is complete BS. Armor means next to nothing in this game, and PT Pyro is one of the squishiest classes in the game due to lack of CD's. Marauder can absorb MUCH more damage with their defensive CD's+Bleed heals, also, Marauders have higher sustained DPS and Obsfucate takes out PT's frontload burst.

 

All and all, Marauders should have zero trouble dealing with a PT or a VG. I made a compendium about how to beat PT's on the Marauder forums, here's a link to it

 

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=378099

 

Where am I mentioning Armor Rating? I'm talking about our shield absorbtion.

 

And good for you? Personally 95% of the time Marauders lose to me so -shrug glad the ones on your server suck?

 

The way I deal with saber ward and obs is to stun / concussion you and kite while it wears off at which point marauder = dead.

 

You are right though when your 2m cooldowns are all up you can absorb a ton of dmg, for a few seconds, fortunately WZ is not 1 fight every 2 minutes.

 

As far as the statement about having zero trouble, if that was the case you wouldn't of needed to write a "compendium" for all of the marauders who are having lots of trouble with VG / PT, lol.

Edited April 1, 2012 by dwgagner

[jitsuo]

Where am I mentioning Armor Rating? I'm talking about our shield absorbtion.

 

And good for you? Personally 95% of the time Marauders lose to me so -shrug glad the ones on your server suck?

 

The way I deal with saber ward and obs is to stun / concussion you and kite while it wears off at which point marauder = dead.

 

You are right though when your 2m cooldowns are all up you can absorb a ton of dmg, for a few seconds, fortunately WZ is not 1 fight every 2 minutes.

 

As far as the statement about having zero trouble, if that was the case you wouldn't of needed to write a "compendium" for all of the marauders who are having lots of trouble with VG / PT, lol.

 

Because most people are idiots. If a Marauder loses to a PT, he's an idiot, he's an idiot. Tell me how you can beat a Marauder, please. If you're kiting a Marauder, he's a pretty bad Marauder.

 

Crippling Slash=no kiting because PTs have no way to seperate themselves unless they use a Mez/stun, which is then mitigated with a Charge.

 

Obsfucate is casted at the beginning of a fight, so only the TD hits and the Rail Shots are worthless. Saber Ward is a 12 second CD so a stun will not let that wear off. The DPS of a Marauder is higher and the defensive ability of a Marauder is better.

 

I say it again, PT is one of the squishiest classes in the game when it's a Pyro PT. They have 2 defenive CD's, a 25% bubble and a 15% heal. Marauders have Berserk, which makes 18% healing and can be used VERY quickly, Cloak of Pain is 20% damage reduction, Undying Rage extends the life of a Marauder by 5 seconds, Phantom can Vanish while my dots tick on you, Saber Ward increases defense by 50% and decreases tech damage by 25%, Obsfucate takes away 90% of your accuracy.

 

Missing Rail Shot=50% of your damage done. A fight with PT vs. Marauder is a DPS race and a PT is woefully underprepared, end of story.

 

You attempt to say you kill Marauders all the time, but you have submitted no evidence as to WHY a PT can kill a Marauder. They can't kite them, they can't outdamage them, they can't outmitigate them. All they can do is get lucky by jumping on a Marauder who is not paying attention and get lucky with RS procs

 

EDIT: Many Grammar and "adding information" edits

Edited April 1, 2012 by jitsuo

[jitsuo]

What makes you think I'm talking about a Pyro? Pyro is not a dps class...it's a tank class...try arsenal based Merc.

 

Perhaps you've never played against them? If you haven't played level 50 PVP on the Republic side you don't know. Try taking a opening salvo of heat missiles plus tracer missile with a few crits added in...8k is not a problem I see it every day. Merc is the only class on the battlefield I have to worry about because of the insane dps with no mitigation. 55 kills in a Huttball game is common.

 

If you let an Arsenal Merc free cast on you then you deserve to die. Charge+Interrupt will see them dead. Arsenal Mercs are the easiest class to 1v1.

 

EDIT: Arsenal Mercs do great damage.....when left alone. The top damage dealers we had to deal with were 2 Commandos named Chubbs and Iopata who were specced whatever the mirror of Arsenal is for Commandos. They were pumping out high DPS until we marked them and sent me and Aeion to take them out (both Marauders). Where they melted people when left alone, they could barely take anyone down 25% health once they are focused. Interrupts destroy Tracer missle, and Marauders have a plethora of interrupts.

 

Merc vs. Marauder.

 

Marauder either Charges in (stupid) or eats a TM whilst running in. First knockback is countered by a Charge, second knockback is countered by either Charge (if off CD) or Force Camo. Interrupt Tracer Missle using the core interrupt and Charge (after the Knockback if possible, if not possible due to CD, then keep reading). Interrupt TM/their heals like this

 

Disruption-->Charge-->Disruption-->Force Choke---->Disruption---->Charge----->Disruption---->Intimidating Roar----->Disruption----->Charge---->Disruption.

 

If he's still alive that means two things

 

A) You have bigger problems than needing to know how to interrupt

 

B) You eat 1 TM and continue interrupting

 

TL;DR If you lose a lot to Arsenal Mercs/Grav roun specced Vanguards, especially if you fight them head on, you are either insanely undergeared or don't know what an interrupt is.

Edited April 1, 2012 by jitsuo

[dwgagner]

Because most people are idiots. If a Marauder loses to a PT, he's an idiot, he's an idiot. Tell me how you can beat a Marauder, please. If you're kiting a Marauder, he's a pretty bad Marauder.

 

Crippling Slash=no kiting because PTs have no way to seperate themselves unless they use a Mez/stun, which is then mitigated with a Charge.

 

Obsfucate is casted at the beginning of a fight, so only the TD hits and the Rail Shots are worthless. Saber Ward is a 12 second CD so a stun will not let that wear off. The DPS of a Marauder is higher and the defensive ability of a Marauder is better.

 

I say it again, PT is one of the squishiest classes in the game when it's a Pyro PT. They have 2 defenive CD's, a 25% bubble and a 15% heal. Marauders have Berserk, which makes 18% healing and can be used VERY quickly, Cloak of Pain is 20% damage reduction, Undying Rage extends the life of a Marauder by 5 seconds, Phantom can Vanish while my dots tick on you, Saber Ward increases defense by 50% and decreases tech damage by 25%, Obsfucate takes away 90% of your accuracy.

 

Missing Rail Shot=50% of your damage done. A fight with PT vs. Marauder is a DPS race and a PT is woefully underprepared, end of story.

 

You attempt to say you kill Marauders all the time, but you have submitted no evidence as to WHY a PT can kill a Marauder. They can't kite them, they can't outdamage them, they can't outmitigate them. All they can do is get lucky by jumping on a Marauder who is not paying attention and get lucky with RS procs

 

EDIT: Many Grammar and "adding information" edits

 

Well then I guess all the marauders on Swiftsure suck *** as it stands currently Marauders are not among the classes that give me trouble, at all in fact.

 

Soooooooooooooooooooo -shrug. Though I do plan to roll a sentinel with 1.2.

 

I'm not trying to state that the class is inherently more powerful than a Marauder and should win 90% of all fights against Marauders regardless of whose controlling it as you're argument seems to be with Marauders vs. PT.s

 

I am however saying that "I" as a Vanguard continually outplay Marauders on my server consistently. While I don't win 100% of the time I win vs them a lot more than I lose and as every fight is not textbook "press this combination of buttons in this sequence for epic lulz" it's situational. I use my stuns appropriately, I keep them dotted and I keep rail shot rolling in their face, I time my crits properly and typically I lock them up when they get low on health before they pop saber ward as most of the ones I run into seem to wait until they are close to death before using it. Which happens to be a mistake when they are cryo naded followed by stun and dead before they get it off.

 

Sooooooooooooooooooooo /shrug I'll be concerned when I start losing to them more than I win, maybe that will happen with our pyro / assault nerf in 1.2

 

50 VG

50 Merc

50 Operative

Edited April 1, 2012 by dwgagner

[jitsuo]

Well then I guess all the marauders on Swiftsure suck *** as it stands currently Marauders are not among the classes that give me trouble, at all in fact.

 

Soooooooooooooooooooo -shrug. Though I do plan to roll a sentinel with 1.2.

 

50 VG

50 Merc

50 Operative

 

It all works out mate. I have a 50 PT and a 50 Marauder. I PT's don't give me trouble on my Mara and only some Maras give me trouble on my PT. It's just one of those things that no Marauder should lose to a PT, but some find a way to ;p

[dwgagner]

It all works out mate. I have a 50 PT and a 50 Marauder. I PT's don't give me trouble on my Mara and only some Maras give me trouble on my PT. It's just one of those things that no Marauder should lose to a PT, but some find a way to ;p

 

I just find it funny when people try to argue that this class or that class is better than this class when it comes down to the player behind the class, not the class.

 

A good player whose better than you will outplay you regardless of what class they are using yet this seems to be ignored and blame is thrown on the class.

 

"Clearly that class is better than mine cause I'm not supposed to lose to it".

 

Just makes me think that these people have been face rolled a lot by classes they feel shouldn't be able to .

 

So thumbs up to all the good players out there, keep face rollin punks that blame class .

[Astarica]

I'm sorry but this is complete BS. Armor means next to nothing in this game, and PT Pyro is one of the squishiest classes in the game due to lack of CD's. Marauder can absorb MUCH more damage with their defensive CD's+Bleed heals, also, Marauders have higher sustained DPS and Obsfucate takes out PT's frontload burst.

 

All and all, Marauders should have zero trouble dealing with a PT or a VG. I made a compendium about how to beat PT's on the Marauder forums, here's a link to it

 

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=378099

 

Honestly I think the only reason why PT consistently beat a top tier DPS class is that the top tier class blow all their cooldowns on each other/themselves. Unless you're just counting on getting insane luck, I don't see how a PT can possibly match the offense/defense package that a Marauder/Assassin (Darkness) brings. The highest damage done by PTs is well below the top DPS done by Darkness in WZ screenshots and generally below the highest Marauder, which implies the class should not have higher DPS than either class (high DPS screenshots usually should have no deaths, so lack of survivality should not be an issue) and there's no comparison on the defense side.

 

I know when I fight a PT I try to cheat and see if I can get away with not using all my CDs because I need them far more for another class. Sometimes this cause me to die but that's a mistake on my part. One time a PT did all his cooldown and blew me away, so next time I use all my offensive CDs on him and blew him away. Although that felt satisfying, after that I realized I really should be saving that burst for a Marauder.

[Astarica]

If you let an Arsenal Merc free cast on you then you deserve to die. Charge+Interrupt will see them dead. Arsenal Mercs are the easiest class to 1v1.

 

EDIT: Arsenal Mercs do great damage.....when left alone. The top damage dealers we had to deal with were 2 Commandos named Chubbs and Iopata who were specced whatever the mirror of Arsenal is for Commandos. They were pumping out high DPS until we marked them and sent me and Aeion to take them out (both Marauders). Where they melted people when left alone, they could barely take anyone down 25% health once they are focused. Interrupts destroy Tracer missle, and Marauders have a plethora of interrupts.

 

Merc vs. Marauder.

 

Marauder either Charges in (stupid) or eats a TM whilst running in. First knockback is countered by a Charge, second knockback is countered by either Charge (if off CD) or Force Camo. Interrupt Tracer Missle using the core interrupt and Charge (after the Knockback if possible, if not possible due to CD, then keep reading). Interrupt TM/their heals like this

 

Disruption-->Charge-->Disruption-->Force Choke---->Disruption---->Charge----->Disruption---->Intimidating Roar----->Disruption----->Charge---->Disruption.

 

If he's still alive that means two things

 

A) You have bigger problems than needing to know how to interrupt

 

B) You eat 1 TM and continue interrupting

 

TL;DR If you lose a lot to Arsenal Mercs/Grav roun specced Vanguards, especially if you fight them head on, you are either insanely undergeared or don't know what an interrupt is.

 

Disruption's range is far shorter than TM. If you don't charge in (which is dumb because you just get tossed), you'll probably have 4 TM stacks on you from 2 TMs. At this point he can use HSM (the 5th stack isn't going to make or break the fight), and at this point it becomes a fight that depends on how lucky the Merc is with procs. Each Unload proc basically cancels out your interrupt (use Unload when Tracer is interrupted). I've been thinking about whether to just switch to Power Shot if Tracer Missile gets interrupted, since if you got 4 stacks of TM on the enemy you really don't need the 5th one that badly. At any rate this is probably why in 1.2 the chance to proc Barrage is considerably increased so you don't have an instant lose situation if you get unlucky with Barrage procs.

[Varicite]

Honestly I think the only reason why PT consistently beat a top tier DPS class is that the top tier class blow all their cooldowns on each other/themselves. Unless you're just counting on getting insane luck, I don't see how a PT can possibly match the offense/defense package that a Marauder/Assassin (Darkness) brings. The highest damage done by PTs is well below the top DPS done by Darkness in WZ screenshots and generally below the highest Marauder, which implies the class should not have higher DPS than either class (high DPS screenshots usually should have no deaths, so lack of survivality should not be an issue) and there's no comparison on the defense side.

 

I know when I fight a PT I try to cheat and see if I can get away with not using all my CDs because I need them far more for another class. Sometimes this cause me to die but that's a mistake on my part. One time a PT did all his cooldown and blew me away, so next time I use all my offensive CDs on him and blew him away. Although that felt satisfying, after that I realized I really should be saving that burst for a Marauder.

 

You seem to be confusing damage done at the WZ w/ actual burst damage. You see, a Darkness Sin has a TON more weak AoE than a PT, whereas most of a PT's damage is heavy single-target damage.

 

They're worlds apart when you are comparing actual damage numbers in a 1v1 situation; a Darkness Sin could never hope to match the type of pressure that a good Pyro PT will bring. They do more damage by surviving longer and outdamaging them in the long run; they beat Pyro PTs because of their defensive cds and healing, not by outdps'ing them.

 

A Mara, on the other hand, survives by outdps'ing a Pyro PT and blowing defensive cds to outlast the punishment the PT can bring. If you aren't willing to trade cds w/ a PT, then you are pretty much asking for them to kill you, because as I said earlier, both of these classes output very similar dps.

 

The only difference between a Pyro PT and Mara dps-wise is that a Mara has more staying power in a combat situation, whereas PTs bring the utility of taunts/grapple/ranged attacks. There's a good reason Pyro PT is widely considered the 3rd most OP 1v1 class.

Edited April 1, 2012 by Varicite

[Varicite]

Because most people are idiots. If a Marauder loses to a PT, he's an idiot, he's an idiot. Tell me how you can beat a Marauder, please. If you're kiting a Marauder, he's a pretty bad Marauder.

 

Crippling Slash=no kiting because PTs have no way to seperate themselves unless they use a Mez/stun, which is then mitigated with a Charge.

 

Obsfucate is casted at the beginning of a fight, so only the TD hits and the Rail Shots are worthless. Saber Ward is a 12 second CD so a stun will not let that wear off. The DPS of a Marauder is higher and the defensive ability of a Marauder is better.

 

I say it again, PT is one of the squishiest classes in the game when it's a Pyro PT. They have 2 defenive CD's, a 25% bubble and a 15% heal. Marauders have Berserk, which makes 18% healing and can be used VERY quickly, Cloak of Pain is 20% damage reduction, Undying Rage extends the life of a Marauder by 5 seconds, Phantom can Vanish while my dots tick on you, Saber Ward increases defense by 50% and decreases tech damage by 25%, Obsfucate takes away 90% of your accuracy.

 

Missing Rail Shot=50% of your damage done. A fight with PT vs. Marauder is a DPS race and a PT is woefully underprepared, end of story.

 

You attempt to say you kill Marauders all the time, but you have submitted no evidence as to WHY a PT can kill a Marauder. They can't kite them, they can't outdamage them, they can't outmitigate them. All they can do is get lucky by jumping on a Marauder who is not paying attention and get lucky with RS procs

 

EDIT: Many Grammar and "adding information" edits

 

There are a lot of.. not so great.. marauders running around lately. My PT kills those guys all the time too, but get a decent one w/ Champ-level gear and it's usually not a contest.

 

Darkness Sin, Anni Mara, Healing Merc, and Snipers are my hard counters as a Pyro PT. Everything else is just a victim.

[Astarica]

You seem to be confusing damage done at the WZ w/ actual burst damage. You see, a Darkness Sin has a TON more weak AoE than a PT, whereas most of a PT's damage is heavy single-target damage.

 

They're worlds apart when you are comparing actual damage numbers in a 1v1 situation; a Darkness Sin could never hope to match the type of pressure that a good Pyro PT will bring. They do more damage by surviving longer and outdamaging them in the long run; they beat Pyro PTs because of their defensive cds and healing, not by outdps'ing them.

 

A Mara, on the other hand, survives by outdps'ing a Pyro PT and blowing defensive cds to outlast the punishment the PT can bring. If you aren't willing to trade cds w/ a PT, then you are pretty much asking for them to kill you, because as I said earlier, both of these classes output very similar dps.

 

The only difference between a Pyro PT and Mara dps-wise is that a Mara has more staying power in a 1v1 situation. There's a good reason Pyro PT is widely considered the 3rd most OP 1v1 class.

 

Um no, in a typical 'this class is overpowered' screenshot the guy doing the mega DPS will generally have no deaths or at least next to no deaths, since that's usually a necessary criteria to do insane DPS.

 

Therefore the survivality issue itself is solved by the fact that 'awesome DPS screenshots' already selects upon a relatively rare occurence (no deaths). Therefore, if PTs consistently do more damage on single target than either Marauder or Assassins, in the relatively rare time where they didn't die, they should easily have top DPS. They'll definitely beat a Marauder, who is pretty much single-target, and even Darkness doesn't pad that much DPS via Wither (and PTs have some AEs to use, not great ones but does cancel out some of the differences)

 

If you mean that a PT can pressure someone by randomly getting lucky with procs of course that's true, but that's just luck. Railshot, being a melee-based attack, also has far more counters compared to Force/Tech types.

[Varicite]

I just find it funny when people try to argue that this class or that class is better than this class when it comes down to the player behind the class, not the class.

 

A good player whose better than you will outplay you regardless of what class they are using yet this seems to be ignored and blame is thrown on the class.

 

"Clearly that class is better than mine cause I'm not supposed to lose to it".

 

Just makes me think that these people have been face rolled a lot by classes they feel shouldn't be able to .

 

So thumbs up to all the good players out there, keep face rollin punks that blame class .

 

Eh, some classes have clear advantages over others. Anni Mara vs Pyro PT is a great example of this, as is Darkness Sin vs Pyro PT.

 

With that said, it's still possible to overcome these advantages, especially if your opponent doesn't know how to capitalize on them.

[Varicite]

Um no, in a typical 'this class is overpowered' screenshot the guy doing the mega DPS will generally have no deaths or at least next to no deaths, since that's usually a necessary criteria to do insane DPS.

 

Therefore the survivality issue itself is solved by the fact that 'awesome DPS screenshots' already selects upon a relatively rare occurence (no deaths). Therefore, if PTs consistently do more damage on single target than either Marauder or Assassins, in the relatively rare time where they didn't die, they should easily have top DPS. They'll definitely beat a Marauder, who is pretty much single-target, and even Darkness doesn't pad that much DPS via Wither (and PTs have some AEs to use, not great ones but does cancel out some of the differences)

 

If you mean that a PT can pressure someone by randomly getting lucky with procs of course that's true, but that's just luck. Railshot, being a melee-based attack, also has far more counters compared to Force/Tech types.

 

You don't really seem to understand the strengths of Pyro, if you honestly think that all of a Pyro's damage comes from lucky procs. Rail Shots are huge, sure, but it's not the only thing that's killing you. There's a reason that tanks are one of my juiciest targets besides healers. Also, thanks to the 90% armor ignore, the only thing that will effect it is defense, since most tanks don't wear shields in PvP atm.

 

Pyro damage outside of Rail Shot and Rocket Punch is all Tech/Elemental, and such bypasses shielding/defenses/armor. Flame Burst has no cd and hits for around 2k-2.5k~ if you count the automatic CGC proc that happens every time you use this ability. Rail Shot also procs the elemental CGC damage every time it goes off. CGC is one of the most powerful dot abilities in the game, rivaling Crushing Darkness w/out Wrath, and the first tick is always 600-1k damage. This happens every few seconds. Darkness Sin's innate 19% resistance to Elemental damage is one of the many reasons they are a hard counter. This may be one of the reasons you don't think they hit so hard, if you're used to fighting them as Darkness. : )

 

While it's true that back-to-back Rail Shots will put just about anyone in an early grave, they aren't necessary to defeat most classes. In fact, the lucky RNG you're talking about is only necessary to defeat the hard counters that I mentioned; all the other classes can be defeated normally w/out them. Your wording here is a little insulting, as you imply that the class only wins because of the RNG, and I can assure you that's not how it works. Much like any class (including Tankasins), you can succeed by button-mashing, but you certainly won't excel that way.

 

Shot for shot, Pyro's abilities hit harder than an Anni Mara or Darkness Sin, but both of these classes have incredible self-healing compared to most DPS classes, and have ways to outlast the damage that a Pyro can bring. This is literally the only reason they can survive the onslaught. In a PvP situation, the huge heavy hits that a Pyro brings to the table is their only real defense, so when they can't utterly destroy someone quickly, they will overheat and lose the battle. Fortunately, there's only a few classes that don't die quickly.

 

So yes, Mara/Sin will do more damage over the course of a WZ, because a Pyro PT will die a lot more than either of these classes (no escapes, no heals, etc). However, DPS-wise, the Darkness Sin can't even hold a candle to Pyro, while Mara can probably outclass them due to the bleed damage stacked on top of their abilities.

 

Also, my Death From Above will do upwards of 12k~ over the channel once a minute, and I generally use it on a softened crowd so that I can count on seeing deaths. Please don't compare this to spamming Wither on cd that doesn't kill anything and hits for like 2k every 7.5 seconds, which is easily healed through.

Edited April 1, 2012 by Varicite

[Astarica]

I'm sure it has happened at some time that a Pyro PT goes through a WZ without dying, and yet I don't see screenshots of them doing 500K+ like Marauders are doing or the 700K+ Darkness can do. At least, if such screenshot exists, they certainly aren't talked about as much compared to the two other DPS classes.

 

I usually don't think too much about people at the bad end of matchups. Some classes do end up as auto-lose against PTs but that's not within my power to change. Sometimes you'll get half of the WZ being a Marauder or an Assassin, so I consider those two classes the standard metric to judge power by. Compared to those two classes, a PT is nothing special. They might be strong compared to rest of the classes, but there sure are a lot of Marauders/Assassins out there.