ChairForceOne Posted March 29, 2012 Posted March 29, 2012 (edited) Before i elaborate more, please keep everything constructive and civil. I really don't want this to turn into an "so and so is OP and so and so needs a buff" thread where there is mindless arguments with no basis. That being said, i'm a Sith Warrior (Marauder) and i have a VERY difficult time killing Vanguards. My typical strategy for fighting them is to try to sneak up and immediately apply a movement slow and get my bleeds up. As soon as i get my bleeds rolling i use force choke to let the bleeds tick while hes choking. When the chock ends i'll chain defensive CD's. If get out of melee range / stunned i immediately use my free movement ability and lleap back in, trying to keep all my bleeds rolling at all times while constantly trying to get behind him to prevent channeled abilities. i interrupt everything i possibly can when i see it casting. I can almost never beat one of these guys. I'll only get em to 30-40% health in a Wazrzone before losing to him in most circumstances. I seem to do a very good job at staying in melee range and interupting them, but i just can't seem to bring one down. Any advice? I'm using medpacs ofc. Edited March 29, 2012 by ChairForceOne
Slurmez Posted March 29, 2012 Posted March 29, 2012 Any particular kind of vanguards? are they using Ion cell or plasma?
ChairForceOne Posted March 29, 2012 Author Posted March 29, 2012 (edited) Your gear? My gear is pretty decent. i'm level 38 and i have 6 oranges with very up to date modifications. and the other slots are all in the mid 30's with greens/blues. The exception to this is my belt, which is like a level 28 blue. EDIT: My weapons are both equipped with purple quality hilts that i made, and purple quality crit gems. As for the specific type of vanguard, i'm unsure. I don't seem to ever do well against any of them. Edited March 29, 2012 by ChairForceOne
Easpeak Posted March 29, 2012 Posted March 29, 2012 Before i elaborate more, please keep everything constructive and civil. I really don't want this to turn into an "so and so is OP and so and so needs a buff" thread where there is mindless arguments with no basis. That being said, i'm a Sith Warrior (Marauder) and i have a VERY difficult time killing Vanguards. My typical strategy for fighting them is to try to sneak up and immediately apply a movement slow and get my bleeds up. As soon as i get my bleeds rolling i use force choke to let the bleeds tick while hes choking. When the chock ends i'll chain defensive CD's. If i get knocked back and stunned i immediately use my free movement ability and lleap back in, trying to keep all my bleeds rolling at all times while constantly trying to get behind him to prevent channeled abilities. i interrupt everything i possibly can when i see it casting. I can almost never beat one of these guys. I'll only get em to 30-40% health in a Wazrzone before losing to him in most circumstances. I seem to do a very good job at staying in melee range and interupting them, but i just can't seem to bring one down. Any advice? I'm using medpacs ofc. From what I read you are popping your defensive CDs too soon - defensive CDs have a sort time span and if he still has his stuns/mezzes then you might just waste the CDs. One other strategy is to apply DOTs and LOS. Also letting us know what build and gear you use might give some insight.
Easpeak Posted March 29, 2012 Posted March 29, 2012 My gear is pretty decent. i'm level 38 and i have 6 oranges with very up to date modifications. and the other slots are all in the mid 30's with greens/blues. The exception to this is my belt, which is like a level 28 blue. As for the specific type of vanguard, i'm unsure. I don't seem to ever do well against any of them. Vanguards are the ones that do instant damage. Commandos are the ones that cast/channel their abilities. There is a difference how you should counter them. But I would not worry too much about "beating" them at your level. Life will be much more fun when you get to lvl 50
ChairForceOne Posted March 29, 2012 Author Posted March 29, 2012 Currently using annihilation - It's a PvE build.
cashogy Posted March 29, 2012 Posted March 29, 2012 Currently using annihilation - It's a PvE build. problem detected
Moosestick Posted March 29, 2012 Posted March 29, 2012 (edited) pve build and level 38. marauders dont mature until the late 40's Edited March 30, 2012 by Moosestick
ChairForceOne Posted March 29, 2012 Author Posted March 29, 2012 The only difference in an Annihilation PvP v PvE build would be a movement slow chance with your hit and a 4 sec 100% damage reduction CD. in the PvE build, you turn invisible with the CD for 4 seconds which 9 times out of 10 results in no damage being taken provided you don't have DoT's on you, and even then, you'd only take the dot damage. I do agree that it would indeed be helptful, but i cant imagine that one change adding up to a 30-40% come back. As for the slow, i'm have no issues with staying in range of them for the most part, as my sweeping slash (slow) lasts for so long.
TheNegotiator Posted March 29, 2012 Posted March 29, 2012 You are not supposed to be attacking tanks, that will get your team a loss if you do that the whole match. Don't worry though the bounty hunters can kill them in 3.1 seconds.
ChairForceOne Posted March 29, 2012 Author Posted March 29, 2012 My buddy is Bounty Hunter, and we duel every no and then (we are the same level with roughly the same gear) and i have no troubles beating him. I'll usually win with 20-30% health left using the tactics i listed in the original post.
Astarica Posted March 29, 2012 Posted March 29, 2012 If they're tank you ignore them. If they're DPS you kill them. Problem is that the counter for one type of Vanguard is exactly the wrong counter for the other type of Vanguard. This class feels overpowered because due to the class's relative rarity it takes you a while to recognize what kind of spec they are. It's actually easier for me to fight the top players in this class because I know their spec for sure so I know whether I should kill them immediately or completely ignore them. Against lesser players, I usually have no idea what role they're suppsoed to be in and there's a 50% chance you guessed wrong.
jjgriffin Posted March 29, 2012 Posted March 29, 2012 (edited) Vanguards have a lot of Elemental and tech abilities, which will chew through your Damage Mitigation and (for the most part) completely bypass many of your Defensive cooldowns (notably, the ones which increase your class Defense %). So long as they are smart enough to not empty the rest of their ammo bar while you have God Mode switched on, they've got a good chance to win the fight. However, a well-played, well-geared Marauder can and should defeat an equally skilled equipped Vanguard so long as they are Annihilation/Watchman specc'd. Edited March 29, 2012 by jjgriffin
ChairForceOne Posted March 29, 2012 Author Posted March 29, 2012 Well, the most common scenario i end up fighting these guys is when i'm trying to take an objective in a warzone early in the game and it's just me and him there fighting over the turret or the door.
ChairForceOne Posted March 29, 2012 Author Posted March 29, 2012 Yeah, thanks for the input. Hopfully in 2 levels when i get my top tier spec ability things will change, it looks like it's really powerful ability.
Astarica Posted March 29, 2012 Posted March 29, 2012 If you're not a particularly overpowered class (Marauder, Assassin), the 'kill them' strategy only has about 50% chance to succeed against a DPS Vanguard. It's not like this class is supposed to auto lose to another DPS just because it's being attacked. That'd make the class ridiculuosly weak. The real tricky part is figuring out which Vanguards should be attacked first (or at all). To complicate things, DPS Vanguards are clearly not the top of the DPS food chain, so if you pay too much attention to them, expect to get stomped by a Marauder or whoever you believe is the top DPS class at the moment. Vanguards are one of those classes that's strong enough to kill you but not strong enough to warrant a counter because stronger classes exist, often in abundance.
Wallach Posted March 29, 2012 Posted March 29, 2012 (edited) One thing to remember when dealing with Vanguards/Powertechs as a Marauder is Obfuscate works very well against them. Save it for them if you know you're dealing with one in a WZ, it will give you a head start that is hard to battle back from in a strictly 1v1 sense. Most of them are going to be a DPS spec in PvP that has strong burst and mostly ignores armor, but leaves them with basically no defensive capability. You should have close to 100% melee range uptime on these targets in a 1v1; once you are engaged it's simply a race to the bottom (of your health pools). There's nothing much else to really work out - if you're still losing in a 1v1 you're either getting outplayed or are outgeared. If your melee uptime is suffering (i.e. you are getting kited for periods of 3-4+ GCDs), it's probably the former, though it doesn't help that you're still leveling. This match-up (assuming Pyro spec on the VG/PT) is one of the more even ones in the game 1v1 IMO, though I think it does favor the Marauder if Obfuscate is up when engagement begins. It gets slightly easier in 1.2 with the Pyro nerf, though fighting an AP/Tactics spec might be a different story as that is going to turn into a joust-happy matchup. Edit - Spec typo. Edited March 30, 2012 by Wallach
Astarica Posted March 29, 2012 Posted March 29, 2012 One thing to remember when dealing with Vanguards/Powertechs as a Marauder is Obfuscate works very well against them. Save it for them if you know you're dealing with one in a WZ, it will give you a head start that is hard to battle back from in a strictly 1v1 sense. Most of them are going to be a DPS spec in PvP that has strong burst and mostly ignores armor, but leaves them with basically no defensive capability. You should have close to 100% melee range uptime on these targets in a 1v1; once you are engaged it's simply a race to the bottom (of your health pools). There's nothing much else to really work out - if you're still losing in a 1v1 you're either getting outplayed or are outgeared. If your melee uptime is suffering (i.e. you are getting kited for periods of 3-4+ GCDs), it's probably the former, though it doesn't help that you're still leveling. This match-up (assuming Pyro spec on the VG/PT) is one of the more even ones in the game 1v1 IMO, though I think it does favor the Marauder if Obfuscate is up when engagement begins. It gets slightly easier in 1.2 with the Pyro nerf, though fighting an AP/Assault spec might be a different story as that is going to turn into a joust-happy matchup. Marauder's Cloak of Pain is a generic damage reduction effect, not armor, so it works on both elemental damage and armor-piercing attacks. This is probably one of the worst matchups for a Pyro.
Wallach Posted March 30, 2012 Posted March 30, 2012 Marauder's Cloak of Pain is a generic damage reduction effect, not armor, so it works on both elemental damage and armor-piercing attacks. This is probably one of the worst matchups for a Pyro. I'm aware. It probably is one of the "worst" match-ups for Pyro, but in general Pyro has pretty good match-ups so that is to be expected.
Karandor Posted March 30, 2012 Posted March 30, 2012 If you're not a particularly overpowered class (Marauder, Assassin), the 'kill them' strategy only has about 50% chance to succeed against a DPS Vanguard. It's not like this class is supposed to auto lose to another DPS just because it's being attacked. That'd make the class ridiculuosly weak. The real tricky part is figuring out which Vanguards should be attacked first (or at all). To complicate things, DPS Vanguards are clearly not the top of the DPS food chain, so if you pay too much attention to them, expect to get stomped by a Marauder or whoever you believe is the top DPS class at the moment. Vanguards are one of those classes that's strong enough to kill you but not strong enough to warrant a counter because stronger classes exist, often in abundance. DPS Vanguards ARE the top of the food chain if they are Assault spec. They have the highest burst in the game right now and it almost entirely bypasses armor. With an adrenal + relic +25% crit ability (2min CD) I can throw aassault plastique, Incendiary round, ion pulse, HiB, SS, probably another HiB. If it all crits (which with +25% crit to everything it often does) It hits for 800 + 1.6k + 4k + 3.5K + 2.7k + 4k + DoTs = 16.6k in 6 GCDs but 13k of it hits in the last 3 GCDs. That is against people with 500+ expertise. If I get unlucky it's only about 10k... There's a reason HiB/RS are getting a 6s CD put on their refresh talent. Though this scenario would still be possible, just have to skip the ion pulse before the first HiB. Marauders can beat me 1v1 but they need to have ALL their CDs up. Every last one of them. Without defensive CDs I kill them extremely easily. Funnily enough the best counter to a DPS VG is a sniper. We're really squishy and they have the tools to make us miss.
Gosten Posted March 30, 2012 Posted March 30, 2012 This is pretty much correct about assault vanguards. There's 2 factors that determine the outcome of the fight. First is when the marauder dosn't apply their snare. This is shockingly common and causes they to lose uptime on the vanguard. Marauders need to be within 4 meters to be effective, vanguards can do decently from 10 meters away. Second is cooldown usage. Marauders have a lot more useful cooldowns than vanguards do. If they use them, they win. Than means obfuscate, force cloak, saber ward, undying rage, cloak of pain, and whatever dps cooldowns they have. Fail to use cooldowns properly and it becomes a simple dps race.
ShadowOfVey Posted March 30, 2012 Posted March 30, 2012 If you're not a particularly overpowered class (Marauder, Assassin), the 'kill them' strategy only has about 50% chance to succeed against a DPS Vanguard. It's not like this class is supposed to auto lose to another DPS just because it's being attacked. That'd make the class ridiculuosly weak. The real tricky part is figuring out which Vanguards should be attacked first (or at all). To complicate things, DPS Vanguards are clearly not the top of the DPS food chain, so if you pay too much attention to them, expect to get stomped by a Marauder or whoever you believe is the top DPS class at the moment. Vanguards are one of those classes that's strong enough to kill you but not strong enough to warrant a counter because stronger classes exist, often in abundance. As far as pure DPS, they hurt like hell. NO ONE kills faster than a dps vanguard that gets lucky with rail shot reset procs. I swear you'll go up and think everything is cool, then suddenly you're at 20% health when you thought you were at 80.
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