Will the future bring desired changes? Raph Koster?

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

Problem is that ArcheAge will bomb.

 

Seriously. Have you even seen one gameplay video of Archeage? Checked out the

? The stunning landscapes?

,

, gigantic areas?

 

 

SWG was a massive failure and LA probably told BW to stay away from what SWG was. It's just normal. They didn't want another commercial failure.

 

More uninformed bashing of the best Star Wars game ever which was SWG? You simply don´t have a clue.

 

 

It would be nice to add some sandbox elements in there, but what? What they need to do is expand on space

 

Finally some truth. Well perhaps they think far enough and rip off features from better games than from WoW

Edited April 12, 2012 by Lord_Ravenhurst

[Tsaritsin]

I disagree. An implement of sandbox gaming is exactly what this game needs as players are achieving level 50 too early and consuming all the content before is made. BW/EA shoudl give the community what they promised from inception, a sanbox/themepark hybrid.

 

With sandbox elements, players can keep themselves busy until the next expansion. Besides, its not like adding more to the game will hurt it; adding more will make it better. That said, there are a huge number of sandbox enthusiasts that would make implementing sandbox elements worth while and profitable in terms of new subscriptions, like the 500,000+ gamers playing EvE Online looking for a new sandbox to play in these days.

 

Let's not discount the 5,389,895 people who bought Minecraft, 7,291 of which bought the game in the last 24 hours: http://www.minecraft.net/stats. 5,389,895 players... that is more than SWTOR's total number of subs now. Imagine SWTOR with just 1/3rd of thsi player base added to our servers.

 

For those of you who think sandbox wont add subs, quit your marketing jobs.

 

Yep, Minecraft seems to be going ballistic, so it's doing something right, and lets not forget that the game is not based on hyped up graphics and voice overs,

 

I think alot of MMO players are just bored, regardless of the setting or the content, full stop, I think fairly large numbers are just carrying on due to the social element, groups of friends moving from one game to the next,

 

Quite a few WoW players dont even play the game anymore, they just log in and chat in trade or guild chat for most of the day/evening/night,

 

Quite a few WoW players simply farm gold now, not to sell it, were not talking about chinese gold farmers, were talking about gamers, who are simply farming gold, they want to hit the gold max,

 

Quite a few Eve Online players do exactly the same, they simply farm ISK,

 

Come on, think about it, it all smacks of boredom,

 

It took me 5 years to get bored of WoW, and about 3 months to get bored with SWTOR,

 

The diff in times is not due to how good or bad the respective games are, its due to when they were released, in other words if SWTOR had been released 5 or 6 years ago and WoW was only 3 months old, then the posistions would be reversed, I would of been bored with SWTOR after 5 instead,

 

In other words, I think SWTOR just missed the boat, it's 5 years too late,

 

Either way, regardless of whether you think SWTOR is good or Bad, I think the clues comming from the MMO userbase seem to point to people simply being very bored.

 

just my thoughts, so no need to throw a flame grilled whopper ok,

 

[matraque]

WHAT?? Seriously. Have you even seen ONE gameplay video of Archeage? Checked out the

? The stunning landscapes?

,

, gigantic areas?

 

Do some research and think again. Seriously, this game is lightyears ahead, LIGHTYEARS, and it´s only in Beta. Simply look up some videos and start a list what´s all NOT possible in TOR. Believe me, it will be a LONG list.

 

 

 

More uninformed fanboy bashing of the best Star Wars game ever which was SWG? You simply don´t have a clue.

 

 

 

 

Finally some truth. Well perhaps they think far enough and rip off features from better games than from Turd-of-Warcraft

 

I played SWG up to the NGE and after. I know what i'm talking about. Pre-CU, the game had 0 content and pretty much everything about it was broken. Nothing to do besides create a nest from a mission terminal and go destroy it.

 

SWG started to have content when JTL was released. Like the vast majority of the gamers, i want to be entertained when i log in. I want to log in for 30mins or a couple hours and have something to do quick. SWTOR allows me to do that. I'm always a fan of the games i play. Which means i once was a fan of SWG, but i quickly realized it was so broken that the game was unfixable. It was done in such ways that it was impossible to add content to it.

 

And yes, i'm telling you right now (and you can save that message if you want). Archeage will BOMB.

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

 

And yes, Archeage will BOMB.

 

yeah, it will blow some other MMOs out of the water, if you mean that. So will GW2 and TSW, because these are next-gen MMOs with new ideas and state of the art technology, not same old WoW borefest

Edited March 30, 2012 by Lord_Ravenhurst

[stormie_sarge]

honestly I think that making a "open market area" or something where players can set up stores or something in that nature would immeansly push forward the sandbox element that people so want. I do think that themepark is the way to go though for the raiding game, just due to what is needed to make raiding not a bugfest. Yes Yes I know that there is a GTN for selling, but that just doesn't always do the job . Plus you could impliment some more crafting to make some of the other elements of the open market be buildable or something like that.

[Urael]

So there's your post stating it's what the majority of people wanted AND a post above yours saying that 70% of those buying the game left in the first 30 days (which would have been way before CU.)

 

Like so much else posted on the internet ... who to believe, who to believe.

 

Well at the time of the CU there were protests on the servers. What comes to mind specifically is the protest on INTREPID server. The majority of the active players on the server congrigated to Naboo. The GMs were teleporting people into space or to location 0,0 on Dathomir ( ranchor nest ) as punishment. The server cashed a few times. There were even fan forums doing "news casts" from the protest sites. Intrepid population took a sharp hit after the CU.

 

Intrepid server had a tight nit community of crafters, entertainers, and other secondary classes that actually created player content with the tools given to us in the game. There were cities set up and dedicated to specific themes. There was a city on Naboo that was dedicated to "the arts" it had multiple theatres and a museum. There was a city that was essentually a shopping mall where all the best crafters had shops to show off their items.

 

There was a Talent Agent that booked live acts that entertainers worked for and were rewarded for their performances.

 

There was a guild that did special missions like help move people from planet to planet. For a fee they would help someone pack mule all their belongings in house and the house from one place to the next.

 

There were guilds that acted as crime syndicates and guilds that acted as policmen.

 

There was even a live wood stock like event called Groove Fest that the SOE SWG devs participated in and provided content for in the form of iconic characters ( e.g. Vader ) making a visit to the event or on Tatooine there were raids of Tuskin Raiders that attacked the event.

 

ALL of this instantly GONE after the CU.

 

Intrepid was decimated.

 

I will correct my post that you repsonded to by saying MOST on INTREPID left. The server became a ghost town.

Edited March 30, 2012 by Urael

[Darth_Bond]

Blizzard and LAE are both well versed in creating throw-away games, meaning, games that you buy, you play, you complete, you move on from. The MMO market has been corrupted to such a point by WoW that everyone wants to use that as a base or template, but it too is in essence a throw away game that requires never-ending expansions to keep people playing.

 

Gamers like myself are tired of that recipe. I can only speak for myself, and what I as a gamer would like to see is the mechanisms in place that inspire player-created content.

 

I don't want to continue to play games that are throw-away style games. I want something I can play for years to come. The only way that can happen is if players create their own content on a large scale. Currently, there are no personal homes which can be decorated or viewed openly by other players. There are no personal vendors which would allow players to become real traders and crafters in this game. There are no player-created cities. You are fixed into this loop of play which requires you to follow one of a few paths of story line and then you grind to gear up and then.... well... you do it with a different character or wait to see if there is more content added.

 

I still enjoy playing many throw away games.... Mass Effect is an example. So is Pac Man. To me, these are simply not anything I would consider a true MMO or MMORPG even though, yes, you can play them with multiple people online if you choose. A true MMO or MMORPG in my humble opinion requires a community of people who will craft and evolve more than characters; they will evolve and grow as a community over time. That can only happen if the mechanisms are there to do so.

 

The most MMO experience this game has at this time for me actually has nothing at all to do with this game, and that would be the experience i get in Ventrilo speaking with other players about their personal lives and situations.

 

Will I quit playing? Not right now. I hope that in time there will be more functionality put into this game. If this becomes another game that tries to keep people playing by marketing one expansion after another as a diversion then at that point I will most likely leave this game behind.

 

Yes, I was spoiled by games of yester-year. I know that gaming can be so so so much more. I have seen it, experienced it, and now I am not willing to settle for some digital glowing sword just because I am a Star Wars fan. I expect more from this venture and I expect more for my money and I most certainly expect more for my time.

 

I don't know about you, but my time is valuable. I love to PvP, I love to spend time with fellow gamers, I hate being rooked into accepting a throw-away mass player game as if it were a real MMO or MMORPG when it is more like a modern version of Street Fighter.

 

I do enjoy the story lines. I enjoy them because they break up the monotony of grinding up characters. At the end of the day, I want to play a game in which the player has a lot more control over how his environment develops and evolves. In tis game, everything is fixed so once you have seen it a few times, you know what will happen, you know where people will and won’t be, and there is absolutely nothing fun about doing it again.

 

I think someone may want to consider consulting someone like Raph Koster to improve this situation. Of course, he may not have the right ideas either, but he had some good ones in the past in relation to creating and building true gaming communities.

 

Do I think that this was done with intent to screw the community? No. I do believe the product is a very good product, but it is missing a huge component of what a community needs and it almost seems as if there is absolutely no plans to create the mechanisms for a self-evolving community of player created content.

 

Without player created content, how can a game be anything other than a throw away game? People will just move onto the next throw away game.

 

I don't intend this to be an attack on anyone or anything. This is just one adult player's opinion formed from years of observation accross many games and situations.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh no....OP is a SWG fanboy.....

 

oh well. atleast that game is dead.

[Jederix]

No offense, but you seem to be assuming that most people who play these games like and dislike the same things you do.

 

90% (made up, of course) of the threads on this forum assume this very thing.

[Jederix]

OP is right 100%

 

I'm sick of liars who say sandbox is a failure. MMO concept is made for sandbox elements, WoW themepark concept is simply braindead cr*p for the masses. Companies milking the mass market and fanboys who even defend this, thinking they are smart. Unbelievable.

 

Like it or not, themepark makes gaming companies money. The almighty dollar is more important than your perceptions of what an MMO should be.

 

Thems the breaks.

[irdc]

sooooo you think TOR should be a sandbox game even though sandbox games are all massive failures for the most part with very few exceptions.... people dont want sandbox end of story is why WoW and TOR have done so well and why even DCUO excells believe it or not people prefer themepark and those are what sells and do well in mmo market.

 

The reason why Warcraft did so well is because:

 

1. Everquest II had a bad launch. Before their launch in 2004, EQII had more commercial appeal in the MMORPG market. It had better branding. But, the launch was .... problematic ... and many people went to WoW which was released a couple weeks after EQ II.

 

2. A person can play WoW using a fairly bad computer. This opened up the market considerably. EQ II, as an example, required a fairly pricey computer in order to play it well. WoW did not, which is why it became a more "casual" game. To put it another way, do you think WoW would be as successful if you needed a 2k comp in order to play it ... ?

 

3. WoW's cartoon graphics are inviting to many casual players. WoW also had a good sense of humor and didn't take itself too seriously. All of these attracted people that were new to the genre.

 

4. Most of the competitors to WoW failed due to bad launches. The game that was supposed to challenge WoW was Vanguard and that had a terrible launch. And the game was clunky and rushed.

 

WoWs success will most likely never be repeated. It is a unique event. Like Star Wars, the movie. If Star Wars was released in 1986 instead of 1977, it would probably not have done very well because the movie market and public sentiment was different. To put it another way, timing is very important in business.

 

As such, I find it odd that you claim that WoW's success is due to it being a themepark.

[anstalt]

Moving back to the OP rather than all the SWG chat:

 

 

It is my personal opinion that no MMO to date has gotten it right.

 

Sandbox features, and by that I mean features which allow the community to entertain themselves, are superior to themepark features in almost every way. They have more longevity due to lack of repetition.

 

However, sandbox features, in general, require two things: community and time.

 

Not everyone has the time to spend hours marketing their wares, collecting mats, forming raids for open world pvp, designing towns, organising pvp tournaments etc etc. Communities take time to form and if you are a fringe member then it is unlikely that you will really get involved with player events.

 

 

That is where themepark wins. Log in, do a quest and you will have advanced your character. Unsure whats going on? Doesn't matter, get some mates and do an instance. Its always there and always available. Wanna pvp? Jump in to a warzone, have 15 minutes of fun.

 

But, themepark activities are repetitive which means eventually, you get bored so the reliance is on the developers to generate content, a task which they will always fail at in the eyes of the most dedicated players.

 

 

 

There is a final factor to consider too: accessibility. I maintain that SWG is the best mmo I've played, but my god the first month or two was painful! Dumped on tattooine, no weapons, no tutorials, no clue! Died to a womp rat, got fatigue...what the hell? Sandbox MMOs have generally been fecking complicated which puts off most people from even trying them. So, they "fail" from the outset as average gamers just quit due to complexity.

 

 

The "perfect" MMO must have the following in my opinion:

 

• Strong IP - gotta draw the crowds
  
• Be accessable - it should be intuitive to play, no overly complex
  
• In game guidance - could be tutorials, could be quest chains, whatever, just some way to guide players through the game initially
  
• Instant Access Content - pvp warzones, instances, raids etc.
  
• Somewhere to call your own - could be player cities (SWG), housing instances (lotro), ships (swtor). Whatever it is, players want a place of their own to feel proud of
  
• Roleplaying facilities - natural social hubs (fleet, cantinas, taverns, whatever), emotes, full character customisation etc
  
• Strong Economy - Some people love crafting, others love trading etc. A strong, player driven economy is excellent
  
• Open World PvP - optional/forced, doesn't matter, the ability to pvp anywhere allows players to create their own epic battles
  
• Player Customisation - no classes, let me play how I want to play!
  
• Large Planets - gotta please the explorers, give them somewhere to actually explore!
  

 

 

I've deliberately left off things like strong reward systems, good graphics etc. The perfect MMO will have content that is worth doing because its fun, not because it rewards you. Building a player city, adding a pvp base and defending it was fun, and having fun was worth the time. Repeating EV for the 15th time is not fun, but the loot makes me stronger so I repeat it in the hope of loot.

 

Thats the ultimate reason why sandbox archetecture has the potential to be better: because we create the content, we create the fun so there is less reason to do stuff you dont enjoy.

[TheRealYukonSam]

There's no doubt in my mind that Koster could improve SWTOR fivefold, but why on earth would he go slumming with a seedy second-rate theme park like this?

 

No offense.

 

But seriously, if you want a top-notch sandbox game, it's not going to happen here in a million years. The developers are hostile to the concept, the fanbois will run interference for them, and there's no convincing them that the theme park is a dead end.

 

So just get some development tools and get to work. The major studios are all dinosaurs staring stupidly up at the blazing meteor in the sky. Tomorrow's MMO innovations are going to come from basement studios, and they're going to outshine today's AAA titles like today's AAA titles outshine Pong.

[irdc]

So just get some development tools and get to work. The major studios are all dinosaurs staring stupidly up at the blazing meteor in the sky. Tomorrow's MMO innovations are going to come from basement studios, and they're going to outshine today's AAA titles like today's AAA titles outshine Pong.

 

 

Indeed. There will be very little innovation from major publishing houses because innovation requires risk and these companies do not take risks.

[MGriffith]

And yet here you are.....

 

Oh and as an 8 year SWG vet, all i have to say is..it's dead, get over it.

 

It's not dead ... it's pining for the fjords.

[Dezzi]

Indeed. There will be very little innovation from major publishing houses because innovation requires risk and these companies do not take risks.

 

Exactly this. The more money spent on a game's development, the more likely it's a safe, easy, and shallow game that takes fewer risks.

[Darnu]

what does a personal vendor do?

[Aikes_Itso]

Moving back to the OP rather than all the SWG chat:

 

 

It is my personal opinion that no MMO to date has gotten it right.

 

Sandbox features, and by that I mean features which allow the community to entertain themselves, are superior to themepark features in almost every way. They have more longevity due to lack of repetition.

 

However, sandbox features, in general, require two things: community and time.

 

Not everyone has the time to spend hours marketing their wares, collecting mats, forming raids for open world pvp, designing towns, organising pvp tournaments etc etc. Communities take time to form and if you are a fringe member then it is unlikely that you will really get involved with player events.

 

 

That is where themepark wins. Log in, do a quest and you will have advanced your character. Unsure whats going on? Doesn't matter, get some mates and do an instance. Its always there and always available. Wanna pvp? Jump in to a warzone, have 15 minutes of fun.

 

But, themepark activities are repetitive which means eventually, you get bored so the reliance is on the developers to generate content, a task which they will always fail at in the eyes of the most dedicated players.

 

 

 

There is a final factor to consider too: accessibility. I maintain that SWG is the best mmo I've played, but my god the first month or two was painful! Dumped on tattooine, no weapons, no tutorials, no clue! Died to a womp rat, got fatigue...what the hell? Sandbox MMOs have generally been fecking complicated which puts off most people from even trying them. So, they "fail" from the outset as average gamers just quit due to complexity.

 

 

The "perfect" MMO must have the following in my opinion:

 

• Strong IP - gotta draw the crowds
  
• Be accessable - it should be intuitive to play, no overly complex
  
• In game guidance - could be tutorials, could be quest chains, whatever, just some way to guide players through the game initially
  
• Instant Access Content - pvp warzones, instances, raids etc.
  
• Somewhere to call your own - could be player cities (SWG), housing instances (lotro), ships (swtor). Whatever it is, players want a place of their own to feel proud of
  
• Roleplaying facilities - natural social hubs (fleet, cantinas, taverns, whatever), emotes, full character customisation etc
  
• Strong Economy - Some people love crafting, others love trading etc. A strong, player driven economy is excellent
  
• Open World PvP - optional/forced, doesn't matter, the ability to pvp anywhere allows players to create their own epic battles
  
• Player Customisation - no classes, let me play how I want to play!
  
• Large Planets - gotta please the explorers, give them somewhere to actually explore!
  

 

 

I've deliberately left off things like strong reward systems, good graphics etc. The perfect MMO will have content that is worth doing because its fun, not because it rewards you. Building a player city, adding a pvp base and defending it was fun, and having fun was worth the time. Repeating EV for the 15th time is not fun, but the loot makes me stronger so I repeat it in the hope of loot.

 

Thats the ultimate reason why sandbox archetecture has the potential to be better: because we create the content, we create the fun so there is less reason to do stuff you dont enjoy.

 

Thank you for the post. I actually enjoyed reading it.

 

If I could play a Pre-Patch 9 SWG with modernized graphics and add PvP and PvE group-que instanced situations I would be utterly in what I consider to be a gaming heaven. WoW got those things right and also understood the importance of mass advertising through Wal-mart. My idea of a great game wouldn't satisfy everyone, but it would satisfy me and I believe that when we voice our opinion we share concepts of possibility with our gaming community so by all means, share your opinions. Especially if you can do so in an educated fashion.

 

Again, thank you for your input.

[Valkirus]

The "perfect" MMO must have the following in my opinion:

 

• Strong IP - gotta draw the crowds
  
• Be accessable - it should be intuitive to play, no overly complex
  
• In game guidance - could be tutorials, could be quest chains, whatever, just some way to guide players through the game initially
  
• Instant Access Content - pvp warzones, instances, raids etc.
  
• Somewhere to call your own - could be player cities (SWG), housing instances (lotro), ships (swtor). Whatever it is, players want a place of their own to feel proud of
  
• Roleplaying facilities - natural social hubs (fleet, cantinas, taverns, whatever), emotes, full character customisation etc
  
• Strong Economy - Some people love crafting, others love trading etc. A strong, player driven economy is excellent
  
• Open World PvP - optional/forced, doesn't matter, the ability to pvp anywhere allows players to create their own epic battles
  
• Player Customisation - no classes, let me play how I want to play!
  
• Large Planets - gotta please the explorers, give them somewhere to actually explore!
  

 

 

I've deliberately left off things like strong reward systems, good graphics etc. The perfect MMO will have content that is worth doing because its fun, not because it rewards you. Building a player city, adding a pvp base and defending it was fun, and having fun was worth the time. Repeating EV for the 15th time is not fun, but the loot makes me stronger so I repeat it in the hope of loot.

 

Thats the ultimate reason why sandbox archetecture has the potential to be better: because we create the content, we create the fun so there is less reason to do stuff you dont enjoy.

 

Sounds like The Perfect World. No serously! lol. The new upcoming MMO.

[Aikes_Itso]

what does a personal vendor do?

 

A personal vendor....

 

In Galaxies you could own your own city, home, or homes. If you had a character that you made into a crafter or if you did a lot of PvE and sold high-end loot, you could set up an NPC or droid that was a vendor. You could buy and sell things on the standard public vendor system or, as most inclined to do, you could set up your own vendor or several vendors and create your own shop.

 

It gave you more personalization and control over your sales. Also, you didn't have such a short vendor period where you must reload your goods onto vendor within a couple of days.

 

This helped on both ends. If you were not into crafting or looting but you wanted the best armor or items you would generally know who the top few crafter were. Crafted items didn't have generalized stats. Their stats would depend on the resources gathered and used to create the items. If an item utilized several components and each required several different resources to make, well the range of quality could be very broad.

 

So, you could buy and place a large home in a city of your choosing or in open ground and set up your personalized vendors selling merchandise you collected or created.

 

Or, if that system was too complicated for you or if you just werent interested in it, you could just go to one of the major starports and use the public vending systems available there. It just gave more diversity to the gaming experience.