Why were Sorcerers ever considered OP?

[Gformutorila]

They have good group utility, are good at running the ball/assisting the ball carrier in Huttball, and can heal.

 

That's about all I've got. 1v1's were a joke, my Tankassin, Marauder, and PT Pyro could smoke them without a second thought. They had no burst and their best ability (Force Lightning) was channeled, so it was interrupt city on that.

 

Now compare taht to say a sniper. Sorc will do the same or more overall damage during a match. But a sorc will also bring the aformentioned abilitites. But a sniper can only dps when stationary, cannot cary the ball, cannot heal and has no group utility, cannot buff other players.

 

But I think the sith stealth shadow tank is more OP atm. (and the Imperial counterpart)

Edited March 28, 2012 by Gformutorila

[Ruckari]

As a preface I have a level 50 sith sorcerer with centurian/champion/bm gear. I currently play said dual spec.

 

1. This game does not require an immense amount of skill to play at a decent level. IN ANY CLASS.

 

2. Balance is not meant to be determined by the general public, never has, never will be. There is too much variance of skill, gear, etc. to draw any actual conclusions. Top level play (people who can actually play their class optimally) with equivalent gear is the proper way to test balance. From what I understand Bioware isn't there yet, which is disappointing.

 

3. Sorcerers have a massive amount of utility. If you don't agree with this you might be braindead.

 

4. Sorcerers do not have massive burst. Sorcerers are able to heal while not in healing spec, but are extremely immobile (no instant casts) Also, if you are not focusing a sorcerer who is healing in a team fight..(see end of 3.)

 

5. I have a hard time 1v1ing pretty much anyone in the 50's bracket, and I am a strong player. Force lightning does not even remotely compete with melee and most ranged dps. You can only kite for so long without flat out running away (is running away OP? It seems like people think so, which is hilarious). Once all your cooldowns are burned they will be left with around 50-60% health and if decently geared will flat out slaughter you from there on out.

 

6. DoT abilities are simply a joke when the opposing player has over 18k hp. I understand the concept of life leech that Bioware has attempted to instill in the madness tree. I even like it, but it's a joke. You regain 1%(2 if specced) health when using death field or your DoTs crit. Sorry but 2-300 hp is kind of a joke when 1 of the opposing players non skill auto attacks does more damage.

 

To sum up the sorcerer has no burst damage, a bunch of cc's, scales the worst endgame, and is the squishiest class in the game. The only thing in my mind that keeps them from being UNDERpowered is their utility, which apparently needs a nerf too.

 

 

I agree with you, i play a Sage, if people smarten up and interupt me/cc then its always close fights, if you just let me roll a train on you ofcourse youre gunna die. All that needed to be done to the Sorc/sage was remove the only thing that is OP, our force management and that Hybrid Spec.

 

 

 

Another thing, not all classes are easy to play, example- marauder (im not sure what spec, but theres one where you need to be a Pianist to play with hotkeys), but there are classes like the BH/Trooper Arsenal/Grav Round spec where you press 4 buttons.

[longgrassgrows]

the only thing that annoys me about sorcs, is they get the best aoe heal in the game by far...my kolto missile cannot come close, going into operation without a sorc heals is much more challenging than with one...or at least EV on Soa...which is kinda lame

 

that being said, i dont think this is a nerf issue. rather a buff issue on the other healers aoe...and no i am not talking about the +1 party member for kolto missile...make it 1 more and you got a deal tho

Edited March 28, 2012 by longgrassgrows

[tanlightsabre]

I honestly don't think 95% of these people play a sorc, or have ever pvp'd at 50 as a sorc.

 

12k channel? LOL?

 

My highest crit is around 2800 and thats while using a power relic. I have expertise gear, a mix of cent/champ/bm gear. You tell me. Without the dual spec and mass aoe criting I can't even come remotely close to the damage other classes put out and thats while (in most cases) being a significantly more skilled player.

[GrandMike]

Its obvious BW doesnt care about PvP balance any more and are focusing on PvE, with PvP as side attraction to PvEers.

 

SWTOR PvP - R.I.P.

[Jieljak]

I'm leveling a Sage atm, almost level 20. When playing WoW, i was bad when comes to play ranged classes in PvP, only exception was Mage and it was because of Blink ability.

 

Let's face it, Force speed is basically is same with blink ability, a great gap opener. And sage have healing.

 

So i feel like i'm playing a Mage with healing. And i'm quick to see, exact time when i need healing or my team mates needs healing, since i played Healer in PvP and PvE. Also i know when to stay for DPS or blink away (force speed away) and run for your life.

 

It's easy to play for even a melee player like me.

 

At other side my main is Scoundrel and my main in WoW was Rogue.

 

Rogue in WoW have about 15-17 abilities are handy in PvP depends on your spec (not doing damage, but great abilities to have in PvP) when Scoundrel only have 6-7. Playing Scoundrel is very hard if u compare it to Rogue from WoW.

 

I won't count all abilities of Rogue but i will tell of my story how i ran away from Horde players in Arathi Basin. I'm still talking about this great escape when we talk about games with my friends.

 

I was in the middle of Arathi Basin Map, killed a guy, but vanish was on CD. And there were 3 horde players on me dps'ing. I shadowstepped farest one, it confused all 3 horde and used %70 speed buff coming with shadowstep for 3 seconds to start my escape. Then i used speed and passed bridge and head to North which was in Horde Control again. These 3 horde was after me, and defenders of North saw me also and start to come dps me. I used Shadow Cloak to pass 2 new one, and used gouge 3rd new one was already casting. And continue run and vanish cd finished, and boom i vanished. It's hard to tell all of it, but i think you get the idea.

 

I was like waov! after this escape. It was fun, even more fun than killing enemy players. It was the moment Rogue became my Main.

 

Scoundrel is harder than play Rogue from WoW. Far far harder.

 

Sage is easier to play than even WoW's Mage. And WoW's Mage is easiest ranged class to play in PvP!

 

Scoundrel needs some abilities badly to escape from combat (if your D.Act ability on Cd, and 2-3 people on you, you are dead for %100) and Scoundrel need abilities closing/opening gaps.

 

In Short; Sage is perfect class when comes to key abilities when Scoundrel is broken class. Sorry to say, i'm Swtor player not going back To WoW and wont cancel my account, but saying it with hope some adjustment for the class.

 

And no, i'm not talking about DPS nerf, DPS buff etc. I don't care about DPS. This patch will come some nerf, next patch some buffs etc. It always will.

 

But key abilities of Scoundrel, well, really really must be checked by Bioware very closely again.

 

P.S. WoW's Rogue is pure Dps class when Scoundrel have healing abilities. And WoW's Rogue healing himself easier than Scoundrel in combat. There is something wrong, just wrong, very very wrong in this also.

 

P.S.2 My second character is Shadow. If i played 500 warzones with Scoundrel played about 100-150 wz with Shadow. (Played Wz Numbers for example). And i get only 1 Immortal (Managed after 7-8 BM gears) with Scoundrel when i get 7-8 Immortal with Shadow (Immortal Numbers are true) and did it with Centurion gears. When i reach same playing time with my Shadow, it will be about 30 immortals.

 

And i got 7-8 Immortals as a noob Shadow. I'm still learning to play Shadow, i'm far better at knowing Scoundrel Class!

 

In same playing time it will be 30 Immortals with Shadow, 1 Immortal with Scoundrel.

 

Scoundrel really really needs some abilities, to survive, to gap opening/closing as i said.

[Acyu]

I'm leveling a Sage atm, almost level 20. When playing WoW, i was bad when comes to play ranged classes in PvP, only exception was Mage and it was because of Blink ability.

 

Let's face it, Force speed is basically is same with blink ability, a great gap opener. And sage have healing.

 

 

You play WoW and you think force speed is same, or even similar, to a mage's blink?

 

I lol'd.

 

They're more like a improved sprint specced 2 second rogue sprint.

 

Once you're "during-force speed" root can be reapplied, and you can be stunned.

 

It is NOTHING like blink. Since you can blink during a STUN to break a stun, adding as an additional stun breaker.

 

Blink is also instantaneous, and you can pretty much blink as far as a 2-second force speed will take you, except you cannot be rooted or stunned during your blink to destination.

 

GL in lvl 50 warzones, I would love to see you "blink" away from DPS. Lol.

Edited March 28, 2012 by Acyu

[vsalcedo]

Sorcs/Sages have gravround/tracermissle?

 

Is funny because any grav/tracer spammer can kill a sorc if the had half a brain. They not only have a stun and a cc but yet all they do is spam one skill rather then try to stun and beat their face in before the sorc can get away. But hey....

[QuiJonPed]

Operative reporting in.

 

In you try and relax your **** just before BW deliver this nerf, it'll make things slightly less painful for you. Please be aware that any attempts at a logical discussion of said nerf will result in lots of Sorcs, sorry other "OP" classes trolling you with "it's justified" or "lern2play". This will also be accompanied with a variety of childish monikers.

 

Welcome to the club

 

Oh and /Nelson_laugh. Sorcs trolled the **** out of Operatives, now it's your turn

Edited March 28, 2012 by QuiJonPed

[Knockerz]

Probably cause most warzones had a significant number of sorcerers/sages representation that was not considered normal. Thus, if a class is over represented in pvp it's probably over power. Expect heavy ners to marauders/sentient in a month or two from now. That's why I don't really feel like leveling a sentient now cause by the time I level and gear it BW would probably have nerf them. Edited March 28, 2012 by Knockerz

[Digtahk]

Immortal is a noob confidence booster given to tanking classes so they feel like they have actually made a contribution to the warzone by spamming taunt for 5 seconds at the start and gaining 3 medals.

 

On the topic when deciding whether something is OP you have to consider all levels of game play its no use saying that they are not OP against the perfect set up of highly skilled players because thats not the pvp most people are involved in.

 

All good class design in MMOs revolves around using a finite resource to achieve the most optimal outcome, without the limiting factor of the finite resource the class becomes faceroll which is what Sorcs are. I would be happy if they were given some form of dps boost (they could use some burst), provided they do something about their unlimited force pool.

[Gformutorila]

I couldn't help but notice that in 4 pages of a thread entitled "Best 1v1 Class", you are the ONLY person who even dared to mention a Sorc.

 

That should really tell you something.

 

How many people mentioned sniper?

[namelless]

Healing Sorcerers were overpowered, mostly due to the force bending bug. Still i do think the changes to forcebending are a step too far, they could have just fixed the bug, but not changed the effect entirely.

 

I'd say the innervate/health cost changes are acceptable, now sorcerers will face energy issues, unless they have another healer off-healing them.

 

Dps Sorcerers didn't seem that overpowered, maybe a little too much utility in huttball, but then again, Assassins, Juggernauts and Powertechs also have great utility in huttball.

 

Anyway, it's a good day to be a Sawbones scoundrel, seeing as our competitors have received some hefty nerfs. I feel bad for dps scoundrels though, they'll be hitting like warm lettuce after patch 1.2.

Edited March 28, 2012 by namelless

[tanlightsabre]

Immortal is a noob confidence booster given to tanking classes so they feel like they have actually made a contribution to the warzone by spamming taunt for 5 seconds at the start and gaining 3 medals.

 

On the topic when deciding whether something is OP you have to consider all levels of game play its no use saying that they are not OP against the perfect set up of highly skilled players because thats not the pvp most people are involved in.

 

All good class design in MMOs revolves around using a finite resource to achieve the most optimal outcome, without the limiting factor of the finite resource the class becomes faceroll which is what Sorcs are. I would be happy if they were given some form of dps boost (they could use some burst), provided they do something about their unlimited force pool.

 

Standard newbie "I should be considered in balance!" statement. True balance comes from facts and analyzing optimized gameplay, not listening to a bunch of 13 year olds cry about what they didnt like when they tried to pvp on the game mommy bought them. Once they fall into the trap of trying to please the masses in pvp Bioware will find out how deep the rabit hole really goes.

[Rikeryo]

Probably cause most warzones had a significant number of sorcerers/sages representation that was not considered normal. Thus, if a class is over represented in pvp it's probably over power. Expect heavy ners to marauders/sentient in a month or two from now. That's why I don't really feel like leveling a sentient now cause by the time I level and gear it BW would probably have nerf them.

 

very wrong. your statement shows the general ignorance of the community and lack of understanding of the sorc/sage advanced class.

 

did you notice that lightsaber wielders are very well represented in this game?

yeah, it's star wars.

 

did you notice that sorc/sage is the only lightsaber-wielding ranged class in this game?

 

did you notice that sorc/sage are the only real casters in this game?

 

if your answer is yes, as it is so obvious, then you've finally found the REAL reason why both classes are often played.

 

simple logic.

 

people who rolled the class because of the iconic sorcerer/wizard/magician theme, which seems to be the majority, will stick with the class after the nerf. or quit.

Edited March 28, 2012 by Rikeryo

[Digtahk]

Standard newbie "I should be considered in balance!" statement. True balance comes from facts and analyzing optimized gameplay, not listening to a bunch of 13 year olds cry about what they didnt like when they tried to pvp on the game mommy bought them. Once they fall into the trap of trying to please the masses in pvp Bioware will find out how deep the rabit hole really goes.

 

Standard pointless post by some faceless nobody that completely misunderstood the point being made and attempts to garner support for their view by calling people juvenile whilst themselves being unable to spell the word rabbit. It is possible to roughly balance classes across all levels of PvP (I dont think they are far off and you don't see me calling for any nerfs in any of my posts) and this is what the developer should be aiming to do, the fact that you attempt to insinuate you are the spokesperson for optimised gamers world over is laughable..........

Edited March 28, 2012 by Digtahk

[FarizAA]

Probably cause most warzones had a significant number of sorcerers/sages representation that was not considered normal. Thus, if a class is over represented in pvp it's probably over power. Expect heavy ners to marauders/sentient in a month or two from now. That's why I don't really feel like leveling a sentient now cause by the time I level and gear it BW would probably have nerf them.

 

It is more than month since all those "I rerolled to sentinel/mara" posts started, yet it is still 1-2 sent/mara per wz.

 

Skill gap between good mara and bad mara is big. Many people who will reroll to mara will return to their current main AC quite fast. Sure, great skilled players will shine as mara, but we know it is a small % of total pvp population.

 

Do not forget also that mara is perfect in mixed geared environment, but considering BW leveling the gear field in 1.2 it is still big question how sent/mara will perform.

 

I am not saying mara is not OP in 1.2 -- I simply do not know. I need to play it first. But I doubt those people who say maras will dominate WZ ever played this AC.

[Adzzy]

It is more than month since all those "I rerolled to sentinel/mara" posts started, yet it is still 1-2 sent/mara per wz.

 

Skill gap between good mara and bad mara is big. Many people who will reroll to mara will return to their current main AC quite fast. Sure, great skilled players will shine as mara, but we know it is a small % of total pvp population.

 

Do not forget also that mara is perfect in mixed geared environment, but considering BW leveling the gear field in 1.2 it is still big question how sent/mara will perform.

 

I am not saying mara is not OP in 1.2 -- I simply do not know. I need to play it first. But I doubt those people who say maras will dominate WZ ever played this AC.

 

Marauders have next to no utility, and super powerful defensive cds (ergo, ones that are mostly counter free (camo has stealth scan, undying rage has "try to get away and wait it out), they're basically the paladin of swtor, lowest skill cap, highest ego.

 

What honestly do you people think the "skill" comes from? i know how to push my invincible button?

Edited March 28, 2012 by Adzzy

[Spero-Mcgee]

Let me sum it up for you guys. EVERY CLASS IS OP! In the hands of a player that understands the role of his/her spec that he/she chose. That understands the strengths and weakness of ALL THE OTHER adv.classes, their specs.

PVP is objective based, you can have a horrendous score dps/healing/prot wise but if you play your role right you can win together with your team in every wz.

For example a Jedi Sage that pulls the ball handlers, Guardians that force leap to enemies then guardian leap to an ally ( say a stealthed ally ftw ). That's Huttball. The other wz's you could be delaying the strongest dps/healers on the enemy team and die all the time, get terrible dps/healing/prot but basicly ensure that your team has a free reign to cap turrets, defend and so on.

[fungihoujo]

They were considered OP because people are terrible at pvp and need something to blame. That's it. There was zero competitive pvp before these nerfs to actually see how the best sorcs fare against the best of other classes- hopefully rated WZ will show that, though smaller scale such as arena would do it better. Right now, all we know is that sorcs do well against bads- and that's enough for BW to cut their burst in half.

[skotish]

Marauders have next to no utility, and super powerful defensive cds (ergo, ones that are mostly counter free (camo has stealth scan, undying rage has "try to get away and wait it out), they're basically the paladin of swtor, lowest skill cap, highest ego.

 

What honestly do you people think the "skill" comes from? i know how to push my invincible button?

 

That button is a godsend to the marauder class face the facts we die alot and is only used in a emergency good day sir:)

[FarizAA]

Marauders have next to no utility, and super powerful defensive cds (ergo, ones that are mostly counter free (camo has stealth scan, undying rage has "try to get away and wait it out), they're basically the paladin of swtor, lowest skill cap, highest ego.

 

What honestly do you people think the "skill" comes from? i know how to push my invincible button?

 

So, play it, and show everyone how to be invincible as mara/sent. It is OP class with low skill cap you say, it is super popular Jedi with 2 light sabers, so it is a reason we see 5 of them per WZ usually. Wait, we do not. Why, God, why?

 

Sarcasm mode off, just for your information. All those talks about invincible maras comes from people who really got no clue. Mara is a melee class with medium armor, and it is being focused almost constantly in pvp. It is a reason why sentinel with pocket healers get usually x1.5, or twice as much damage as same mara without healer. Because mara is not invincible. It is very far from it. When out of of def cds mara dies fast. And this "when" happens often even if player knows perfectly how to use his def cds right, because mara shall be in a constant contact with the target to get max damage output. Which makes him a very popular target.

 

Generally mara defensive skills while cool, are on quite long CDs, works not so long, has a catch attached, and can be negated by skillful op. So they require good situational understanding when to use them effectively. This is why your low skill cap comment is plain wrong. Mara is all about being situational. It is not a question how to push a button. It is when to push it. This button and other 15+ buttons which mara shall use to be competitive.

[da_krall]

Let me sum it up for you guys. EVERY CLASS IS OP! In the hands of a player that understands the role of his/her spec that he/she chose. That understands the strengths and weakness of ALL THE OTHER adv.classes, their specs.

PVP is objective based, you can have a horrendous score dps/healing/prot wise but if you play your role right you can win together with your team in every wz.

For example a Jedi Sage that pulls the ball handlers, Guardians that force leap to enemies then guardian leap to an ally ( say a stealthed ally ftw ). That's Huttball. The other wz's you could be delaying the strongest dps/healers on the enemy team and die all the time, get terrible dps/healing/prot but basicly ensure that your team has a free reign to cap turrets, defend and so on.

 

No they arent, instead of saying 'in the hands of a player that understands.....' think more about that classes facing off against each other when played by the same player and how he would own himself when playing certain classes against other classes. There are classes that as vastly superior to others.

 

Saying its a group game and you can play a role is stupid. i f one group is full of the OP calsses and the other has 50% weak classes it doesnt matter how well you play. If someone can kill you in 6 seconds because you have no defensive CDs when they have defensive CDs that make them imortal for 6 seconds....well im sure you can work out the outcome. Saying this game is group balanced is the same as saying 'we couldnt be bothered/didnt know how to balance it and so claim its group balanced'

Edited March 28, 2012 by da_krall

[da_krall]

So, play it, and show everyone how to be invincible as mara/sent. It is OP class with low skill cap you say, it is super popular Jedi with 2 light sabers, so it is a reason we see 5 of them per WZ usually. Wait, we do not. Why, God, why?

 

 

Dont know which WZ your playing but theres generally at minimum 3 a side in most WZ i have been in recently.

 

Generally mara defensive skills while cool, are on quite long CDs, works not so long, has a catch attached, and can be negated by skillful op. So they require good situational understanding when to use them effectively. This is why your low skill cap comment is plain wrong. Mara is all about being situational. It is not a question how to push a button. It is when to push it. This button and other 15+ buttons which mara shall use to be competitive.

 

Seriously get off the Sent are hard ego high horse. They just arent, all classes require situational awareness, including the ones that are claimed to be easy to play, the only thing that could be said about Sents if you will have slightly different rotations for different classes - but even that is a very slight change.

Edited March 28, 2012 by da_krall

[gibmachine]

Marauders have next to no utility, and super powerful defensive cds (ergo, ones that are mostly counter free (camo has stealth scan, undying rage has "try to get away and wait it out), they're basically the paladin of swtor, lowest skill cap, highest ego.

 

What honestly do you people think the "skill" comes from? i know how to push my invincible button?

 

Heard it here first