U So OP

[Karandor]

I wasn't taking you seriously before this, but, this just re-assured it for me.

 

It's damage in PvP is very good. It is as good or better than most classes in the game. Pyro/Assault just completely outshines everything so people think that AP/tactics sucks.

[Theology]

It's damage in PvP is very good. It is as good or better than most classes in the game. Pyro/Assault just completely outshines everything so people think that AP/tactics sucks.

 

ThoughI have no way to actually prove it, i'd like to go out on a limb and say that I guarantee you AP doesn't do more damage than most of the classes DPS spec's in the game.

[Agooz]

It's damage in PvP is very good. It is as good or better than most classes in the game. Pyro/Assault just completely outshines everything so people think that AP/tactics sucks.

 

LOL, apparently you dont do many WZ. A hybrid tank/dps assassin can do as much damage as a pyro on the scorecard, plus 100k+ protection. So yea, a hybrid tank would do more than AP.

EVERY other AC does more damage AND/OR burst than AP. For some reason Bio thinks the utilities of APs have so much weight, hence the low damage/burst. I am the first guy to say that classes shouldnt be balanced based on their damage output, but AP's utilities is nowhere near a Sorc and even they out dps APs.

[Ramayana]

Sorry about the title. I get that a lot in tells and general chat.

 

Hi folks,

 

Quick introduction:

 

I'm a Pyrotech PT. First War Hero PT on my server. Played since beta. Get nasty things said about me in WZ's by the opposition. Have pubs make Imp alts and send nasty tells to me after I smok them repeatedly. My numbers are big. No doubt. I don't lose 1v1's. Don't come at me solo. Don't come at me with just one other friend, cause I'll burn you both.

 

So, yeah. I'm overpowered. But here's the truth for all the whiners:

 

it ain't the class.

 

As a thought experiment, I rolled a Marauder. Most of the mara's on my server put up terrible numbers, and are generally fairly soft. My mara has terrible gear. He's only 30th. And guess what? I'm owning. I'm owning 40+ mara's in clean 1v1. I'm owning PTs, Assassins, scoundrels etc. Over and over again. Highest kills, very low deaths, and usually top 3 damage per WZ. All at 30. With lowbie green gear.

 

So why are the mara's on my server so terrible? No idea. I think they're just run by bad players.

 

What is the point of this post? It's real simple: after playing my Marauder only to 30 it's clear to me that Pyrotech is a class that already has some serious flaws in PVP. No escapes, very little utility, no movement buffs, constant heat management. Our only strength is our ability to burst. In the hands of a good player, there is perhaps the appearance of overpoweredness. I even had myself convinced that my numbers were a result of the class for awhile. I'm here to tell you they aren't.

 

I've concluded that people who whine about a class being overpowered are incompetent. There should be little tweaks here and there, but I truly believe that TOR has a very well balanced PVP landscape. I'd love to see a sniper buffed a little, along with operative healing. But to grossly nerf a build like Pyro seems to be a knee-jerk reaction based off of feedback of bad players.

 

Sad thing is, Pyro is fun to play. There is a certain mojo that the tree has that makes it exciting. We're gonna lose this flow in 1.2 with the artificial proc cap.

 

Only consolation: I'm OP no matter what class I play. My suggestion to BioWare: nerf good players. You'll get much better PVP balance that way.

 

People like this really make me despise interacting with people in general.

 

I'm going to put it down to immaturity and self esteem issues. **** me.

[Terrorshard]

I agree it could be OP sometimes. But it didn't need to go from being very good to very bad. Good would have been ok.

[mugen_dom]

I think we will be fine, were still going to be a viable DPS. just going to have to tweak our whole play style though. I went from full ST to Iron fist to pyro and going back to IF is aggravating. Its going to take getting used to like starting a new toon. I think I may roll a vanguard to get my PT skills down again before jumping into WZs. But really I think we will be fine or if its broke so bad, they fix it. Make it a 4.5 sec proc like someone mentioned. Or up the % it will proc after 6 sec, but 6 sec is FOREVER in a battle. I kill people in 6 seconds in WZs if theyre unlucky.

[FeralPug]

Sure, Pyro appears OP compared to our other trees. AP is garbage damage. Parakeet is low damage. And to the guy who says he's doing as much damage in Parakeet as Pyro: you have not played with a competent pyro.

 

But here's the deal (and the reason for this post): compared to other classes, Pyro has extremely low utility, escapes and survivability. We should do massive burst because that's all we can do. We sacrifice all other bells and whistles for burst (which is largely both fueled and mitigated by lucky procs). I'm telling you, after playing my marauder Pyrotech feels very weak and limited in so many areas. The more I think about it, and the more I experience PVP with other classes the more I feel absolutely shocked at the nerf.

 

The second reason for my post is not to claim I'm some PVP savant. I'm very far from that. I'm pretty good. Not the best. To all those who are all upset that someone might post that they are competent in PVP, my only assumption is that yer one of the bads we've (decent PVPers) owned on occasion. My apologies. It ain't personal.

 

Rather, the second reason for my post is to point out that I personally think that the nerf to Pyrotech is not because it's overpowered, but that the vast majority of PVPers are crappy players. Pyrotech has the illusion of OP: massive burst, grapple, heavy armor etc. To a bad player who does not understand the seriously limited function a pyro serves in PVP, we appear overpowered. After playing a marauder, I can honestly say that when I go back to my Pyro I feel gimped. I wonder how many other classes would leave me with the same impression? Probably several.

 

So here we have Pyrotech: a class that sacrifices everything for burst potential. We're getting nerfed. We're getting nerfed big from both sides: damage AND heat management. For those of you who think this is minor, I don't think you fully understand the scope of the nerf. This is devastating to the build. So the one thing that Pyros can do in a match is being severely limited, while other classes that I personally think are already stronger, are either being slightly buffed or untouched.

 

I did a search on fleet yesterday. Here were the results:

 

15 Sorcs

12 Assassins

10 Snipers

11 Operatives

14 Mercs

2 Powertechs. One was me.

 

The immediate future of PTs looks pretty bleak. Parakeet is being removed, which is a complete shame as it represents a creative gaming of the trees. AP is getting buffed slightly. This is a tree based on a channeled, stationary cone. Maybe good for PVE, but I don't care WHAT they do to it: a stationary, channeled cone is a ridiculous ability to base a PVP build on. The Pyro tree is losing its mojo.

 

Think I'll just keep leveling my marauder.

Edited March 28, 2012 by FeralPug

[Agenteusa]

@OP

 

Dude you don´t know to what extent I relate to what you said. I admit like I did several times we coudl use a nerf in RS dmg (and only that), but bottom-line it ain´t the class for the most part, it´s the player.

 

I , just like you, rolled a sorc just to pvp in low levels and guess what I hugely influence the outcome of a WZ when I´m there.

 

At lvl 26 I did once 317k dmg wiith some 68k helaing and next top dps was around 170k and on my team. Normally the gap is always in the line of 100k+.

 

and notice I pick up all the utility and use it whenver on cd for the most part (electrocute and Whirlwind) so its not like I´m tehre just to dps.

 

Also had a fresh marauder (that i didnt play since I think it´s kind of a childish class) at 10, went into a WZ with it and even with 2 or 3 abilities I was 2nd top dps with around 160k (y its that bad and ridicule).

 

Getting sick and tired of players not playing to the full potentials of their classes and then getting others to get nerfed.

 

Tottaly support what you said.

 

And reinforcing that I also agree with the OP on out utility, Pyro PT´s are like kamikazes, we have 2 very long cc´s that last for couple of seconds and we have a shield that unless specced (which I don´t think anyone will spec into it) is good for eating 2 blaster bolts and then we´re done.

 

But most importantly I´m not pissed at dmg being nerfed. I´ll give BW that. I´m pissed because I play a Pyro since I like the gameplay attached to it I like going after folks constantly bombing them. After the fixed cd on PPA and the impact that it will have on our heat mechanic BW might as well give us a sniper rifle and tell us to shoot behind a pillar and then only come out when RS comes off CD cause we really can´t go on a spree FB´ing and RP´ing anymore after what they did.

Edited March 28, 2012 by Agenteusa

[TheWeebus]

It's not really a large nerf. Don't listen to these whiners who have zero common sense. Half of the napkin math I've seen on these forums has mistakes a 3rd grader shouldn't be making.

 

There's 3 seconds where you can't get a free Rail Shot proc that wasn't there before. That's two instant casts, one Unload/Flamethrower.

 

(Proc - 1.5s -> Rail Shot - 1.5s -> 3 seconds before you can proc again)

 

If you were spamming Flame Burst during those globals before, you were heat screwing yourself anyways, therefore you're a bad player.

 

With a higher proc chance... it's more reliable burst. This, in my opinion, just makes the class further reward smart play, and harms people who don't know what they're doing. There's less wasted heat praying for a proc.

 

I've was lucky enough to have my Powertech transferred to the PTS. Our damage is fine (in fact, it's higher than most every class in actual boss fights). Our heat management is fine.

 

All this patch does is increases the skill gap for the class. If you're a bad Pyrotech, you'll be hurt. If you're a good one, you'll adjust and hardly notice the difference. Sure, you won't get 4 procs in a row... but those were rare, and it was stupid when that happened. Most battles didn't work that way... and SHOULDN'T work that way. It won't, now. I'm fine with that.

 

It's funny you bring up Marauders. I also have a BM Marauder alt... and it's the perfect comparison. Highly skilled Marauders are one of the strongest classes in PvP. Bad ones are among the most useless. Powertechs are still, in my opinion, still have a bit more forgiveness, but this "nerf" was a step in the right direction to creating a skill gap. Good Powertechs will stand out. Bad ones will do the opposite.

[Gnugthreeonefive]

I agree with the above.

[Poe_]

Wow, for all the epeen wall of text crits in here, you guys should at least do us the humble favor of adding a 'TL;DR.'

 

Everyone's saying the same damn thing. Everyone's gonna adjust and either be a good pvp'er once the adjustment period is over, or a bad one like they were beforehand. The only difference is being a baddie is going to sting your egos more.

[Agenteusa]

It's not really a large nerf. Don't listen to these whiners who have zero common sense. Half of the napkin math I've seen on these forums has mistakes a 3rd grader shouldn't be making.

 

I´m not discussing skill with you. That has brought me to a delicate position on these forums before.

 

Go ahead and make all the accusations you want.

 

It´s not a huge nerf. Never said that (that I remember it). The problem is (and this I said it multiple times) it´s going to change the way the class plays to some extent.

 

Before I could take the chance of FB´ing or RP´ing because I knew that RS could proc at anytime and be used at any moment. It was the fun of the class for me.

 

I seldom run around with pocket healers so unless you are a very conservative PT you will overheat from time to time (either because you really want to finish off a player or a really dangerous healer) and guess what, after that you just rest for a couple of seconds. I´m not in a WZ to never die, far from that, it´s not my purpose. I had a gamble in my priority , now I ceased to have that.

 

I seriously don´t understand how you say it´s going to separate good from bad. They have given you a fixed rotation, easy as 1-2-3. Practice it for a day and it´s like playing a Trooper but yet you say it´s going to separate good from bad.. oh well POV´s...

 

I´m curious as to how you´re going to kill heavily geared from now on with this change, unless you´re one of those that thinks 1 dps shouldn´t be able to kill a healer but that´s a matter of opinion.

 

Just as you did, I tried the changes and we must play very differently as I feel as I mentioned before like a Sniper now... at the end it changes the way I play my class and that´s what I really don´t like about the change.

 

You can pretty much faceroll with any class if you know what you´re doing, that´s nothing new and there are other classes in my server up to par with my dmg, dunno in yours but in mine they do exist.

 

but those were rare, and it was stupid when that happened. Most battles didn't work that way... and SHOULDN'T work that way. It won't, now. I'm fine with that.

 

YOU , are fine with that, I´m not, that´s basically our difference. Like I said, make RS hit for 40% less, I don´t care, don´t change its mechanics.

 

And btw , why shouldn´t it work that way? Don´t tell me you never played any other mmo´s with similar mechanics that didn´t need an ICD for it to be balanced..

Edited March 30, 2012 by Agenteusa

[Hedge]

It's not really a large nerf. Don't listen to these whiners who have zero common sense. Half of the napkin math I've seen on these forums has mistakes a 3rd grader shouldn't be making.

 

There's 3 seconds where you can't get a free Rail Shot proc that wasn't there before. That's two instant casts, one Unload/Flamethrower.

 

(Proc - 1.5s -> Rail Shot - 1.5s -> 3 seconds before you can proc again)

 

If you were spamming Flame Burst during those globals before, you were heat screwing yourself anyways, therefore you're a bad player.

 

With a higher proc chance... it's more reliable burst. This, in my opinion, just makes the class further reward smart play, and harms people who don't know what they're doing. There's less wasted heat praying for a proc.

 

I've was lucky enough to have my Powertech transferred to the PTS. Our damage is fine (in fact, it's higher than most every class in actual boss fights). Our heat management is fine.

 

All this patch does is increases the skill gap for the class. If you're a bad Pyrotech, you'll be hurt. If you're a good one, you'll adjust and hardly notice the difference. Sure, you won't get 4 procs in a row... but those were rare, and it was stupid when that happened. Most battles didn't work that way... and SHOULDN'T work that way. It won't, now. I'm fine with that.

 

It's funny you bring up Marauders. I also have a BM Marauder alt... and it's the perfect comparison. Highly skilled Marauders are one of the strongest classes in PvP. Bad ones are among the most useless. Powertechs are still, in my opinion, still have a bit more forgiveness, but this "nerf" was a step in the right direction to creating a skill gap. Good Powertechs will stand out. Bad ones will do the opposite.

 

 

Couldn't have said it better.

[Theology]

It's not really a large nerf. Don't listen to these whiners who have zero common sense. Half of the napkin math I've seen on these forums has mistakes a 3rd grader shouldn't be making.

 

There's 3 seconds where you can't get a free Rail Shot proc that wasn't there before. That's two instant casts, one Unload/Flamethrower.

 

(Proc - 1.5s -> Rail Shot - 1.5s -> 3 seconds before you can proc again)

 

If you were spamming Flame Burst during those globals before, you were heat screwing yourself anyways, therefore you're a bad player.

 

With a higher proc chance... it's more reliable burst. This, in my opinion, just makes the class further reward smart play, and harms people who don't know what they're doing. There's less wasted heat praying for a proc.

 

I've was lucky enough to have my Powertech transferred to the PTS. Our damage is fine (in fact, it's higher than most every class in actual boss fights). Our heat management is fine.

 

All this patch does is increases the skill gap for the class. If youe a bad Pyrotech, you'll be hurt. If you're a good one, you'll adjust and hardly notice the difference. Sure, you won't get 4 procs in a row... but those were rare, and it was stupid when that happened. Most battles didn't work that way... and SHOULDN'T work that way. It won't, now. I'm fine with that.

 

It's funny you bring up Marauders. I also have a BM Marauder alt... and it's the perfect comparison. Highly skilled Marauders are one of the strongest classes in PvP. Bad ones are among the most useless. Powertechs are still, in my opinion, still have a bit more forgiveness, but this "nerf" was a step in the right direction to creating a skill gap. Good Powertechs will stand out. Bad ones will do the opposite.

 

So, now, the difference between good PTs and bad PTs is how many times you Rapid Shot?

 

Sounds legit to me.

[Agooz]

All this patch does is increases the skill gap for the class. If you're a bad Pyrotech, you'll be hurt. If you're a good one, you'll adjust and hardly notice the difference.

 

All the arguments aside, this is the most ridiculous thing I've read. So the devs of MMOs these days, look at classes and say "hmm how can we make changes to a class so we can create a gap between our arrogant elitest know-it-alls AND the rest of the playerbase without whom we wouldnt have jobs?"

 

How about this? why dont we have each ability be triggered by a 3 botton combination that changes every cooldown. I mean that would require some serious skills, and insane button spams. I know this would be totally out of my skill level.

 

Until then, I will try my hardest to adapt, and see how difficult it is to add rapid shots or chew gum between GCDs so I dont overheat. It's going to be a tough road, but if you can do it, I sure as hec will try! Wish us all noobs luck in 1.2. We might not make it through the first week.

[TheOpf]

I feel that the PT gets the same rap as an Assassin/Shadow does. Though there are way more assassins and shadows.

 

The Pyro guys get the brunt end of the stick just as deception and madness do. Here is the basics of what happens in a WZ.

 

I run as a tank, and 1v1 am almost impossible to kill. Granted I do hardly any damage, but I don't die, and spend my time peeling people off ranged, and defending doors. It takes 2-3 guys to take me down if I don't have a healer. People complain when they get smoked by a Pyro and then run into me and can't smoke me back. The problem lies that there is no easy way to differentiate between when a guy is a tank and when he is dps outside of how easy he is to kill. So players complain because they are getting hammered by pyros, and can't kill a shield tech.

 

On my deception sin, I face the same issue. People complain about how OP Sins are because darkness is so hard to take down, and they can kill you fast. The problem is you get dropped by a dps sin and only remember the Darkness you couldnt' take down.

 

For the Powertech, we face the same issue. People complain because the Pyro burned them down, and the PT they ran into they couldn't kill 1v1 as easily. I agree with the above poster that stated the numbers of PT's. In my guild at lvl 30 I was the highest and most active PT in the guild. In the WZ's to 50, I may run 10-20 WZ's before hitting another PT. Most of the time they are Pyro or shield tech. I remember going into a Void Star once, and we had 2 Ops, 3 PT's, 2 Jugs, and 1 Merc Healer. All were tanks except the ops. their were Guards and taunts everywhere. We only had 1 person die the entire wz. Granted that was the most rare WZ I have ever been in.

[Saprezzan]

Let's be honest here, and I'm a Vanguard myself (used Assault for a long time), Pyrotech was (and probably will remain) one of the strongest DPS classes. The burst I had was simply insane, especially when I used all of my consumables. Who needs survivability if you can easily burn your targets before they get a shot at killing you?

[Assaultrooper]

I won a 4v1 today and I am not a great PvPer.. AND guess what! I made a marauder and did the exact same **** last week!

 

Its not the class its the player.

 

Most noobs roll mercenary, most good players roll PT that is why there are so few of us.

 

PT Pride FTW!!

[Assaultrooper]

Let's be honest here, and I'm a Vanguard myself (used Assault for a long time), Pyrotech was (and probably will remain) one of the strongest DPS classes. The burst I had was simply insane, especially when I used all of my consumables. Who needs survivability if you can easily burn your targets before they get a shot at killing you?

 

You are fighting noobs in PvE gear good players, even sorcs are actually a challenge to kill as a PT.

[Taerrik]

As pyrotech spec, I explode people, and after the patch I will still explode people, just have to use 1 rapid shots in the rotation. My burst cycle will still 15seconds (TD cooldown). I just will only have 2 railshots per burst vice 3-4.

 

Things will still go boom boom.

 

 

That being said, AP is playable in 1.2. Its burst doesnt crit as hard as pyro, however in rated it offers far more tools. Full ST (also much more playable), Ironfist, or full AP are specs you should expect to also see along with full pyros in rated matches.

[stridemachine]

This must be the only class thread that has members spouting about how they pwn because of their leet skills, and of course the class has nothing to do with it. Everyone else either whines that they're nerfed into oblivion (ie. op's), are useless in pvp, or any one of a million problems. They go through class abilities and talents to emphasize their points or compare what x class has to their own.

 

But not here.

 

Here, everyone wtfpwns on any class. The most you'll admit is "a little ridiculous burst" on a lucky streak.

 

To justify over the top burst you've fallen back on the same excuse OP's used: "we bring nothing else to the table."

 

Another couple posters cited pwning on marauders as some kind of rationale for being OP on another class. You are aware that marauders are considered the top pvp class atm, right? right?

 

Another common site sight throughout the forums: those who feel their classes are UP overrun their class forum with whining threads; those who feel their classes are just fine are generally positive overall -- but underlying everything is a shaky hope that the Dev's don't catch on to how superior their class is and "bring it in line with the rest."

 

In short, the generally upbeat and positive feeling generated on your forums means you are happy with your class (overall). In MMO's, this means you are OP

[Agooz]

bla bla bla.....In short, the generally upbeat and positive feeling generated on your forums means you are happy with your class (overall). In MMO's, this means you are OP

 

Says the shadow/assassin in a hybrid tank spec

[Taerrik]

Says the shadow/assassin in a hybrid tank spec

 

Quoted for truth

[Assaultrooper]

This must be the only class thread that has members spouting about how they pwn because of their leet skills, and of course the class has nothing to do with it. Everyone else either whines that they're nerfed into oblivion (ie. op's), are useless in pvp, or any one of a million problems. They go through class abilities and talents to emphasize their points or compare what x class has to their own.

 

But not here.

 

Here, everyone wtfpwns on any class. The most you'll admit is "a little ridiculous burst" on a lucky streak.

 

To justify over the top burst you've fallen back on the same excuse OP's used: "we bring nothing else to the table."

 

Another couple posters cited pwning on marauders as some kind of rationale for being OP on another class. You are aware that marauders are considered the top pvp class atm, right? right?

 

Another common site sight throughout the forums: those who feel their classes are UP overrun their class forum with whining threads; those who feel their classes are just fine are generally positive overall -- but underlying everything is a shaky hope that the Dev's don't catch on to how superior their class is and "bring it in line with the rest."

 

In short, the generally upbeat and positive feeling generated on your forums means you are happy with your class (overall). In MMO's, this means you are OP

 

Ahem*** 1st. We are one of the classes least played.

 

2nd I think the lore and the class itself attracts people that like to brag, you know good players, not crappy ones that like to dual wield the noobs are just are just around the corner over there -----> (MERCS)

 

3rd. Because of 1st and 2nd apparently Powertechs are most reasonable than most other classes... You never hear Assassin tanks saying how much they love darkness, (In fact even I hate the Opness of darkness playing darkness) You don't hear marauders cheering of joy from their class either.

 

Conclusion: Powertechs are getting nerfed because they are, Good Players, Mature Players, and Reasonable Players.

 

(Oh yea if you want proof just check out the Vanguard Forums some amazing stuff there.)

Edited April 1, 2012 by Assaultrooper

[Frostbyt]

Such huge epens in this thread! If you're so OP then it won't matter if the class gets nerfed