U So OP

[FeralPug]

Sorry about the title. I get that a lot in tells and general chat.

 

Hi folks,

 

Quick introduction:

 

I'm a Pyrotech PT. First War Hero PT on my server. Played since beta. Get nasty things said about me in WZ's by the opposition. Have pubs make Imp alts and send nasty tells to me after I smok them repeatedly. My numbers are big. No doubt. I don't lose 1v1's. Don't come at me solo. Don't come at me with just one other friend, cause I'll burn you both.

 

So, yeah. I'm overpowered. But here's the truth for all the whiners:

 

it ain't the class.

 

As a thought experiment, I rolled a Marauder. Most of the mara's on my server put up terrible numbers, and are generally fairly soft. My mara has terrible gear. He's only 30th. And guess what? I'm owning. I'm owning 40+ mara's in clean 1v1. I'm owning PTs, Assassins, scoundrels etc. Over and over again. Highest kills, very low deaths, and usually top 3 damage per WZ. All at 30. With lowbie green gear.

 

So why are the mara's on my server so terrible? No idea. I think they're just run by bad players.

 

What is the point of this post? It's real simple: after playing my Marauder only to 30 it's clear to me that Pyrotech is a class that already has some serious flaws in PVP. No escapes, very little utility, no movement buffs, constant heat management. Our only strength is our ability to burst. In the hands of a good player, there is perhaps the appearance of overpoweredness. I even had myself convinced that my numbers were a result of the class for awhile. I'm here to tell you they aren't.

 

I've concluded that people who whine about a class being overpowered are incompetent. There should be little tweaks here and there, but I truly believe that TOR has a very well balanced PVP landscape. I'd love to see a sniper buffed a little, along with operative healing. But to grossly nerf a build like Pyro seems to be a knee-jerk reaction based off of feedback of bad players.

 

Sad thing is, Pyro is fun to play. There is a certain mojo that the tree has that makes it exciting. We're gonna lose this flow in 1.2 with the artificial proc cap.

 

Only consolation: I'm OP no matter what class I play. My suggestion to BioWare: nerf good players. You'll get much better PVP balance that way.

Edited March 27, 2012 by FeralPug

[exphryl]

I won a 1v4 Today.

 

Seriously.

 

I am not the greatest PvPer nor will ever claim to be. It just so happened these 4 were some of the most horrible ones I've played against. (healers that didn't heal, a tank that didn't taunt or guard). Some that seemed like they just stood still staring at what was going on.

 

I finished the battle pretty dumbfounded that that actually happened. I know though, they were probably thinking how OP I am for playing this class when it realistically came down to just how bad they were playing themselves and probably will take all of zero seconds out of their life to figure out why they lost.

 

Considering a top tier Tank Assassin or Sniper (with all cooldown available) can give me serious trouble I found it funny I won this encounter.

Edited March 27, 2012 by exphryl

[FeralPug]

Yep. Which is why I'm unconcerned about the incoming nerf.

 

Bring it. I'm OP now, I'll be OP then.

 

If you break my class, I'm still gonna find a way to have a monopoly on hate tells.

 

And whatever you do, don't make me use my Marauder full-time. Makes my Pyro look like a pretender.

[Agooz]

I have said it many times before. Looking at burst or damage output as the base to balance ACs is the worst thing you can do, and there it is, it's exactly how they have been balancing ACs, starting with the Operative/Scoundrel nerf.

For a Pyro, we should own 1v1, that's what we do. Hec even on Holonet is says BH are Jedi Killers. But as ANY decent PvPer will tell you, burst/damage hardly ever wins WZs.

Oh well, like the rest, I will still find a way. Hell even if it means speccing AP! <puke>

[Obtena]

I think it's much to early in the game to determine how much weight should be put towards the player when considering the OPedness of a give class, setup, etc... I think it takes quite a while before those patterns are developed. I would LOVE to think that in SWTOR, the player has a huge impact on the success of a given character but there are some blatantly obvious things like expertise that are not which can't be ignored.

 

I think the fact that people are being honest with their performances, good or bad, is a hopeful sign that whatever BW has done for a system in PVP is working. Not everyone is good, not everyone is bad. The spectrum of reported experience is reflecting this.

[Hedge]

I totally agree with the OP.

 

Short history : I started pvp'ing in other mmo's a few years ago and I had 1 huge problem : stress, nerves. It went even that far that I wasn't able to get my rotations right and I failed hitting the right keys because each pvp encounter 1v1, battlegrounds stressed me like hell.

 

I had 2 solutions : giving up and blame my age or continue and see how it goes.

 

Few years later now and multiple mmo's and pvp styles I started swtor.

 

I play a 50 commando and don't like it in pvp cause it's not challenging. The build just invites me to spam grav round.

 

I play a 46 vanguard : I do warzones with around 400K dmg done, least deaths, most kills, decent defense on teamplayers and 8/10 games I end top 2 in ranks.

 

most 1v1 and 1v2 end in my favor.

 

I play a 26 powertech. Limited skills and still ending top 1-3 each game.

 

most 1v1 end in my favor 1v2 is a hassle because I lack some skills at this lvl.

 

Now u figured I like to play a trooper , BH in general and you could say. Easy you took an OP class.

 

I thought the same and also roled a scoundrel and a shadow both lvl 35 and 30. And I still end getting the same results in most warzones I play.

 

My stress and panic in pvp are totally gone by persisting trying pvp for the last years.

 

I play at the moment mostly equally good on each class I pvp with.

 

I don't concider myself as a pro player but I just seem to do it the way it's intended for each class.

 

When I compare my results to same class / build players being 10-23 lvls higher then myself I can confirm that it all depends the player in this game and not the class at all.

 

I enjoy it, I see the incomming "nerfs" as an extra challenge and not as a nerf at all.

 

I laugh a lot when I read the QQ threads on the pvp forums cause in the end it seems that some people can't win if they need to press more then 2 (and i'm carefull here) buttons.

 

I enjoy pvp, I enjoy my classes and I enjoy my builds.

 

If higher lvl players with double the skills I have end up giving me MVP's in warzones, it means probably they value the way I play at my lvl and it encourages me only to get even better.

 

 

Kind regards from an old fart pvp'er.

[Jedi_Barbie]

Finally.

 

I'm rather new to gaming, but as a perfectionist, I apply myself to learn as much as I can and practice the learned skills in order to get better as a player.

 

When I die (a lot it seems as a new 50), I don't cry that the class that killed me is OP. I just keep plugging along. (Perhaps some people don't get that you don't "actually" die if your toon wipes?) Eventually, not only do you obtain better gear, but your skill level increases, enabling you to be more successful.

 

I have a lvl 50 Merc (heal/dps hybrid) and a lvl 29 Sorc (heal/dps hybrid) and I've read a good deal about the patch notes, accounts from the PTS, and graphs for post 1.2.

 

One thing I have noticed from my research in the forums is that players from every class complain about being underpowered and that other classes are OP. A much more simple explanation would be "perhaps I am not playing this class correctly." Determine if you are a ranged class who is attempting to fight melee (not effective) or vice versa (also not effective.

 

The upcoming changes will likely necessitate a change in skill rotation for most classes. This shouldn't be a game-canceling change. Good players will learn and adapt. Average players will eventually figure out how to make it work. Bad players will not change a thing, and then complain when they get pwned.

[Terrorshard]

Pyro was a bit OP if you got a stream of lucky procs. I don't think it deserved to be neutered into unplayability though. Very sad.

[Hethroin]

Pyro was a bit OP if you got a stream of lucky procs. I don't think it deserved to be neutered into unplayability though. Very sad.

 

I can assure pyro and assault will work just fine with the nerf. Other than RP and FB, you will need to use other buttons at regular intervals to create burst rather than proc it through spam.

 

For example:

 

IM > TD > Unload > RS > RP/FB (*2 ?) > RS

[Gnugthreeonefive]

It won't be unplayable. PTs will do fine. I do great right now with a TD build, and don't rely on lucky procs.

[LoKiei]

There is a peak performance level of all classes, a good player will not be able to make any class perform equally well.

 

Pyro BH was very easy to achive peak performance out of, it was a pretty simple class to play. That said its peak performance is currently(and will be even moreso) well below the peak performance of certain force using classes.

[dardack]

Bad players are bad and scream for nerfs.

 

News at 11:00

 

I will say that Pyro chain proc's was kinda OP. Also being able to DPS in tank stance putting out those numbers is kinda ridiculous. But if people think PT are OP have you met operatives/scoundrel's pre nerf? Granted I agree with the locking proc to DPS stance, but not with CD.

 

I've actually gone to AP and I'm still owning.

 

Where TD would hit for like 4.7k on same target immolate hits for 4.1k but I don't have to worry about heat. I dig it. Plus with slow on blade and other changes.

 

Now mara's on your server are bad. A mara with all CD's up (and PT with his up), in same gear should beat Pyro PT's 1v1 with all things equal.

[Terrorshard]

I can assure pyro and assault will work just fine with the nerf. Other than RP and FB, you will need to use other buttons at regular intervals to create burst rather than proc it through spam.

 

For example:

 

IM > TD > Unload > RS > RP/FB (*2 ?) > RS

 

How often can you really do this with IM costing 3 ammo (sorry i'm a vanguard)

 

On top of that unload, or full auto is really terrible. It hasn't been on my bar since level 13.

 

Ammo was already a big issue. I'm just afraid it is going to be your rotation, then nothing for a long time until you can do it again.

[Agooz]

I can assure pyro and assault will work just fine with the nerf. Other than RP and FB, you will need to use other buttons at regular intervals to create burst rather than proc it through spam.

 

For example:

 

IM > TD > Unload > RS > RP/FB (*2 ?) > RS

 

What heat level will you be at after this rotation, and more importantly, what comes after?

[exphryl]

I wouldn't mind Unload so much if we had *something* of substance to enhance it even in the slightest....

[Blurps]

Resource management is what prevents more sophisticated rotations for Pyros more than anything else. The current changes on the test server further aggravate that issue.

[Terrorshard]

At the very least rail shot/HIB should never miss then. It gets deflected a lot since it is just a white hit. Going to suck if you burn all that ammo for a rotation just to have 1 of the 2 deflected. Then you have a while before you can even make another burst attempt again.

[Terrorshard]

I wouldn't mind Unload so much if we had *something* of substance to enhance it even in the slightest....

 

You think it is bad for you? It is really terrible for us. Big delay and it doesn't do its full damage. It is just not great for you, it is unusable for vanguards.

[Theology]

Throw IM, TD, and Unload out of the window guys, with their heat cost, they'll be unusable if you try to keep your heat low for burst spikes every 6 seconds.

 

The spec is screwed when 1.2 comes. No way around it. You can still open the same, but post opener, you're useless.

[Terrorshard]

Throw IM, TD, and Unload out of the window guys, with their heat cost, they'll be unusable if you try to keep your heat low for burst spikes every 6 seconds.

 

The spec is screwed when 1.2 comes. No way around it. You can still open the same, but post opener, you're useless.

 

Wish I could test this change. More important I hope they let us exchange our eliminator BM gear for combat tech. Seems fair to me.

[Theology]

Wish I could test this change. More important I hope they let us exchange our eliminator BM gear for combat tech. Seems fair to me.

 

No reason to test, you can do the heat math right now. I've done it multiple times on this notepad next to me. lol

[Noollig]

No reason to test, you can do the heat math right now. I've done it multiple times on this notepad next to me. lol

 

I've know the math. It seems like people are pissed off because they can't have a constant stream of high damage attacks. Is that right? So Pyro really was able to just spam railshots and would never have to use rapid shots?

 

In 1.2, Pyros still get free railshots that vent 8 heat... but not back to back... so that cripples heat management? Hmmm...

[Theology]

I've know the math. It seems like people are pissed off because they can't have a constant stream of high damage attacks. Is that right? So Pyro really was able to just spam railshots and would never have to use rapid shots?

 

In 1.2, Pyros still get free railshots that vent 8 heat... but not back to back... so that cripples heat management? Hmmm...

 

The reason people are frustrated is the mechanic of the whole thing. So Bioware puts a 6 sec ICD on our only way to vent heat, but leaves the RNG there. So, essentialy, we can no longer have any 'good' luck, we can only have 'bad' luck. People aren't mad about the damage reduction, though, in a way, this cripples our sustained damage at the same time as crippeling our burst.

 

Pyro's do have to use rapid shots, but the way the rotation is going to work post 1.2, it allows very little room for variation. IM/TD/Unload will only be able to use sparingly in coordination with thermal sensor override.

[Karandor]

Pyro/Assault is completely OP, I mean c'mon guys I have played all 3 spec on my VG and:

 

Ironfist: really good spec, nice utilty, mobility and survivability. Damage is still pretty damn good.

 

Tactics: good mobility and great damage, slightly better survivability than assault.

 

Assault: OMGWTFBBQ damage, nothing else matters because everything dies in 10s.

 

 

Yes there can be unlucky strings without procs but more often then not the damage is insane.

 

If I don't get focused immediately by the other team there is a 100% chance I will kill my target. If I get left alone every enemy will die, and die exceptionally fast. This spec makes you not really give a **** about healers because you can just *********** blow right through anything anyway.

 

The nerf is needed and warranted.

 

I'm not even sure why tactics is getting buffed, it's already a really high damage spec. The only reason more people don't play it is because of the insanely high burst of assault spec.

[Theology]

Pyro/Assault is completely OP, I mean c'mon guys I have played all 3 spec on my VG and:

 

Ironfist: really good spec, nice utilty, mobility and survivability. Damage is still pretty damn good.

 

Tactics: good mobility and great damage, slightly better survivability than assault.

 

Assault: OMGWTFBBQ damage, nothing else matters because everything dies in 10s.

 

 

Yes there can be unlucky strings without procs but more often then not the damage is insane.

 

If I don't get focused immediately by the other team there is a 100% chance I will kill my target. If I get left alone every enemy will die, and die exceptionally fast. This spec makes you not really give a **** about healers because you can just *********** blow right through anything anyway.

 

The nerf is needed and warranted.

I'm not even sure why tactics is getting buffed, it's already a really high damage spec. The only reason more people don't play it is because of the insanely high burst of assault spec.

 

I wasn't taking you seriously before this, but, this just re-assured it for me.