Skadge

[otherworlder]

I'm reposting my way-too-long response on this subject from another thread because I feel it's relevant here and I don't see the viewpoint stressed by enough people playing this class. I'm in complete agreement with Sarog and one or two other folks who posted here: the rest of you people are nuts.

 

Skadge is the only companion in the whole BH class story that remotely resembles the type of alien scumbags that have long been synonymous with bounty hunters in the Star Wars setting. The fact that the majority of the game is behind you by the time you recruit him is a miserable shame.

 

Let's look at classic Star Wars bounty hunters and how they're represented:

 

1. Boba Fett and/or Jango Fett - amoral, ruthless, pragmatic, loner. Takes any job, has no real illusions of morality.

 

2. Bossk - Violent, ruthless lizard that skins wookiees as his vocation.

 

3. Dengar - Murderous cyborg psychopath who envisions everyone he kills as Han Solo.

 

4. IG-88 - Assassin droid wanted through the galaxy for countless acts of murder and terrorism. Dismantle on sight order standing.

 

5. Greedo - Sleazy rodian loser who tried to extort his target for money before basically admitting he'd kill him anyway.

 

6. Zuckuss and 4-LOM - Perhaps the only alien duo of Bounty Hunters who've worked both sides of the moral fence, but the droid was a pickpocket and thief and later a hunter because of intellectual fascination, while Zuckuss comes from a long line of bugs that hunt people via pseudo-mysical means as a racial tradition.

 

7. Cad Bane - Sinister Duro who was quite content with the idea of murdering a dozen or so innocent senators just to cover his tracks or send a message.

 

8. Zam Wesell - Shapeshifter that uses poisonous insects, remote car-bomb type explosives and sniper rifles to try and murder an innocent politician, racking up tons of collateral damage along the way.

 

The list goes on and on.

 

When I think of Star Wars BHs, I think of amoral, gritty, untrustworthy alien murderers for the most part, who only do what they do for the cold hard credit. They are not glamorous or morally ambiguous, they are scumbags who put a price on sentient lives. Why Bioware decided to therefore fill our crew with a bunch of goodie-goods who quail at every dark choice is utterly mindboggling to me.

 

Mako would be more at home as a light side Smuggler companion. Her illusions of morality are laughable after the heinous things we are often required to do during class quests. Any of the classic bounty hunters I listed above would have fired her out an airlock after her first shrill rant about doing the right thing.

 

Gault, while a dirtbag and fairly amusing, tried to kill us four times before 'volunteering' to join our crew, for no compelling reason whatsoever and offering us nothing in exchange for the mercy. His most noteworthy trait is his ability to lie and con people, yet we agree to sign this guy on no questions asked? Not to mention people playing a straight-lace BH who always gets his man are given no choice to follow through with that here. This was the most gratuitous "on-rails" decision in the whole BH quest, in my opinion.

 

Torian-Bieber is another whiner in it for glory and honor and saving puppies, who clearly has no understanding of the profession. Bounty hunters by and large are after money, and will do what they must to get it. Yet another good guy companion.

 

Blizz, while an amusing novelty, is motivated by friendship, doing the right thing, adventure, hates bullying and cruelty, etc. Once more, another quirky good guy who despises dark decisions.

 

Finally, near endgame, we get Skadge. A savage bully who revels in violence and while not remotely trustworthy at least can be counted on to do the job no matter how dirty it is. THIS is how a partnership between bounty hunters should be, and is exactly how the entire crew dynamic should have been. Throughout the Star Wars mythos, when bounty hunters team up they can be quite effective and deadly but NEVER trust one another and almost invariably backstab to try and cut someone out of the reward. THAT was the classic bounty hunter story experience I was hoping for.

 

Instead, it seems Bioware watched too much Cowboy Bebop (an admittedly awesome anime but worlds different from Star Wars in tone and theme) and tried to offer us an experience more in line with that: a ship full of quirky bounty hunters who pretend to be gruff loners but really want to be friends at heart. That's all well and good, but it's a VERY different take on bounty hunters than is customary for Star Wars, and only really fits one narrow interpretation the players can make.

 

A classic, ruthless Star Wars bounty hunter does not fit with this crew. Skadge was a godsend, a pity he got there way too late.

Edited March 28, 2012 by otherworlder

[-Athena-]

Although I personally do not like Skadge and would have not accepted him into the crew the salient point I believe is what another poster mentioned, that we should not be forced to accept any companion we don't want on our ship.

 

Each companion may or not fit for one reason or another depending on the conceptualization of the protagonist as defined by the person sitting behind the keyboard. So long as we are forced to take all the companions this is the kind of thing that's going to happen.

 

Look at Sith Inquisitors, I believe they have to accept some sort of jedi Ashara Zavros onto their crew. How must that irk some of the players of that class.

 

I agree in principal but its not Skadge that is to blame, its a companion system that does not allow us to reject a companion and thus make decisions that can permanently affect outcomes.

[ounkeo]

I'm reposting my way-too-long response on this subject from another thread because I feel it's relevant here and I don't see the viewpoint stressed by enough people playing this class. I'm in complete agreement with Sarog and one or two other folks who posted here: the rest of you people are nuts.

 

......

 

A classic, ruthless Star Wars bounty hunter does not fit with this crew. Skadge was a godsend, a pity he got there way too late.

 

 

That is only because you view the ENTIRE bounty Hunting profession based on some high profile individuals and based on your own narrow interpretation of the people who do bounty hunt. The profession itself is quite large and I think the game does a VERY good job of showing how there are different personalities in play.

 

Your view is tantamount to saying that all soldiers are looting, murdering, amoral, honorless killers. AND BIOWARE, I HOPE I DON'T GET AN INFRACTION FOR MAKING A COMPARISON ON FAIR GROUNDS AGAIN FOR THE SAKE OF DISCUSSION!

 

If you follow Boba Fetts exploits, you see that while he may be amoral and mercenary, he's also got honor. If you look at the Mandalorians as a whole, while they like to sell their services into warfare and shady services, they do so as professional soldiers. Their core is that of the traditional warrior. Honor first.

 

Also, about mako. Keep in mind she is essentially the typical IT guy in the operation. She is backend and does NOT hold a field position. You only allow her to because she wants to know what it's like. That is wy you have the option to bring someone else along who has more the mindset of a field operative.

 

In fact, would you trust your information and communications expert to a brutish thug who has no moral compass whatsoever? Would you trust Gault or skadge to give you the intel you need that isn't going to get you killed?

 

Torian is a professional grunt (he only likes options that deal with honor and fighting) and Blizz is just along for the ride and personality wise, more closely aligned with Mako. It's not surprising that Blizz also is a technical expert. He's technically not a field person. If you use Blizz, he's very similar to Mako in personality.

 

So yes, your crew is pretty well balanced and noone is really out of place there. People like Mako didn't have a choice of what she wanted to be in life. She's got a moral compass but her profession is shady. Perfectly believable; and frankly If the fit hits the shan, if we're truthful, only Mako, Torian and Blizz are going to come back for you.

 

Fill your crew with all scoundrels and eventually you're going to be the target. If I was a Merc IRL, I'd fill my crew with experts who aren't ALL bloodthirsty amoral scum. Certainly, my technical and comms guy isn't going to be an amoral ****. Simply because you can't trust that he isn't out to screw you with that info.

[davilorius]

Got something to kill, Runt? Skadge is actually a very good tank once geared. He is hard to kill and pulls a whole lot of aggro with his abilities. On Belsavis/Ilum dailies he's my go-to companion - he currently has 18565 health, 11% defense, 37% shield and 31% absorption. I send him in then hang back and DPS, all the mobs stay on him and he rarely needs heals. He talks the most smack when he fights, only Gault rivals him in that regard. He told me I'm one of the 2 or 3 people he doesnt want to kill right now. What's not to like?

[Sarog]

That is only because you view the ENTIRE bounty Hunting profession based on some high profile individuals and based on your own narrow interpretation of the people who do bounty hunt. The profession itself is quite large and I think the game does a VERY good job of showing how there are different personalities in play.

 

That "narrow" interpretation is what we see time and time again through the depth of Star Wars lore, in every era. At this point the "narrow" interpretation is the established expectation, and there is precious little proof that the bounty hunter profession differs from it to any significant degree.

 

Your comparison to soldiers is a strawman. Soldiers are professional, enlisted members of legitimate, national or international military arms. They follow orders, and are held accountable for their behavior. The overwhelming majority of bounty hunters in Star Wars are, at best, enforcers for criminal syndicates (and at worst, which is often, also terrorists and murderers). You can't just lump all violent professions together as though they are the same; you have to look at the particulars of the work and the type of person who does it.

 

Forget soldiers. Bounty hunters are more like pirates; self-interested thugs who live violent lives in defiance of law, without regulation, without any accountability that doesn't come at the end of the barrel of someone else's gun. Sure, theoretically, a gentlemanly, moral pirate could exist and limit his behavior... but there's no evidence that such a person has ever existed, no reason to believe that he would be representative of many other pirates if he were found, and no reason why a person like that would choose to work in such a criminally minded, amoral profession to begin with.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Sarog

[iDubstep]

I would much prefer an evil Mako healer that likes my dark side.

[otherworlder]

That "narrow" interpretation is what we see time and time again through the depth of Star Wars lore, in every era. At this point the "narrow" interpretation is the established expectation, and there is precious little proof that the bounty hunter profession differs from it to any significant degree.

 

Your comparison to soldiers is a strawman. Soldiers are professional, enlisted members of legitimate, national or international military arms. They follow orders, and are held accountable for their behavior. The overwhelming majority of bounty hunters in Star Wars are, at best, enforcers for criminal syndicates (and at worst, which is often, also terrorists and murderers). You can't just lump all violent professions together as though they are the same; you have to look at the particulars of the work and the type of person who does it.

 

Forget soldiers. Bounty hunters are more like pirates; self-interested thugs who live violent lives in defiance of law, without regulation, without any accountability that doesn't come at the end of the barrel of someone else's gun. Sure, theoretically, a gentlemanly, moral pirate could exist and limit his behavior... but there's no evidence that such a person has ever existed, no reason to believe that he would be representative of many other pirates if he were found, and no reason why a person like that would choose to work in such a criminally minded, amoral profession to begin with.

 

VERY well said.

 

This is what people don't seem to be getting: the interpretation of bounty hunters as amoral, ruthless dirtbags is not "one narrow interpretation"-----it's virtually the entire field of canon bounty hunters shown to us in the primary Star Wars media. I agree that a more light-sided / morally centered bounty hunter could in theory exist, but THAT guy should be the outlier and stuck with one outlying companion rather than the vast majority aboard our ship.

 

Bounty hunters who want to play the game as a classic Star Wars scum who puts a price on sentient lives (ie virtually every BH shown in the films from Fett right down to Boussh) do not have a companion to support that classic interpretation until our mid 40s. That's an embarrassing oversight by BW.

Edited March 30, 2012 by otherworlder

[Urkanan]

My only question is:

 

Will there be a restraining bolt to shut Skadge up in 1.2?

[Jaksith]

Look at Sith Inquisitors, I believe they have to accept some sort of jedi Ashara Zavros onto their crew. How must that irk some of the players of that class.

 

She's also the only male romance option - my Dark V SI has her so fooled right now, once I got the the end of her questline, she went back on the shelf for Xalek

[ounkeo]

That "narrow" interpretation is what we see time and time again through the depth of Star Wars lore, in every era. At this point the "narrow" interpretation is the established expectation, and there is precious little proof that the bounty hunter profession differs from it to any significant degree.

 

Your comparison to soldiers is a strawman. Soldiers are professional, enlisted members of legitimate, national or international military arms. They follow orders, and are held accountable for their behavior. The overwhelming majority of bounty hunters in Star Wars are, at best, enforcers for criminal syndicates (and at worst, which is often, also terrorists and murderers). You can't just lump all violent professions together as though they are the same; you have to look at the particulars of the work and the type of person who does it.

 

Forget soldiers. Bounty hunters are more like pirates; self-interested thugs who live violent lives in defiance of law, without regulation, without any accountability that doesn't come at the end of the barrel of someone else's gun. Sure, theoretically, a gentlemanly, moral pirate could exist and limit his behavior... but there's no evidence that such a person has ever existed, no reason to believe that he would be representative of many other pirates if he were found, and no reason why a person like that would choose to work in such a criminally minded, amoral profession to begin with.

 

We also see imperials as evil all around and even their rank and file are evil, and yet, it's quite believable that even in their armed forces or even among civillians, they aren't all evil and many of them are just normal people who just so happen to live on one side of the pond while the republic live on another side.

 

It's quite apparent that some Sith Lords are far less cruel than others. We even come across a Sith Lord holocron that states he followed the Jedi path even as a Sith Lord. Ok these are rare, but the normal troops are pretty normal blokes (the ones we encounter in-game). They have their bias as do the repub regulars, but they aren't evil and amoral by any stretch.

 

Also, by what is canon in media, you would assume all imperials will execute their subordinate and/or leave them to die. Again, that's not really believable. What is believable is that some people are like that but most aren't. I distinctly remember a Sith Lord on tatooine and his lieutenant who really looked out for their men. And while that isn't canon, it's well within the realm of believable.

 

Yet, in all the media we see, ALL imperial are evil, mass murderers who are just as likely to kill their own troops (only Sith have that policy). What you see may be canon but that is simply not believable that ALL of them are like that. hence your view of the BH as all amoral scum is very limited to what you have consumed in the media. It is not at all believable that all of them are like that when you consider that the BH profession is quite a large profession and is going to be filled with quite a number of personalities.

 

I used the example of the soldiers to highlight how one could easily type cast a profession or even a group of peoples. Being accountable doesn't change that type cast perception.

 

What IS believable is that there are going to be different groups within any organisation that have vastly different philosophical and moral views. It's like that for all groups of people.

 

Is it believable to state that BH are amoral and scummy? yes.

Is it believable to state that some are less so? Yes.

Is it believable that some aren't murderers? Yes.

 

The problem is when we typecast the bounty hunter and state categorically one way or another with certainty.

 

Certainly Han Solo was a decent person even though he spent a great deal of time working for underworld figures and running illegal activities. It's not like he didn't kill his fair share of people as well, I might add.

[Digtahk]

What are you people on about Skadge is a true working class hero unlike that whiny street urchin Mako....He provides great entertainment and has a great story, furthermore he likes every gift you give him "....Gonna like this".....

[Gnanika]

I hate Skadge, but I would never make a topic asking why we have to take him, because it's not like you can ever be given an adequate answer ("Because that's the way it is"). He doesn't fit the way I play my character, but every class has at least one of those. Imperial Agents arguably have it just as bad: if you play an agent that is actually for the Empire, and doesn't engage in casual evil for the lulz (you know, the most canonically believable version of the character), you are stuck for 32-ish levels with a violent, anarchistic sociopath before you even get a second option. You don't even GET a true DS companion as a Consular.

 

Skadge at least fits a certain niche. And as others have pointed out, he makes at least as much sense as Gault (and probably more, because GAULT IS A THIEF AND A CONMAN WHY ARE YOU LETTING HIM ON YOUR SHIP ARGH). Skadge feels like someone you might partner with for a brief time, out of mutual convenience. Gault was simply forced on you for not even the tinniest whisper of a reason, other than 'need new companion, here you go.'

 

To be honest though, I do prefer the in-game interpretation of the Bounty Hunter to the general relentlessly, almost pointlessly evil and underhanded Star Wars version. I was even pleasantly surprised when I got it, because usually BioWare is all over making things as dark as humanly possible without breaking real world laws. A lot of things in the Star Wars universe are not sustainable, even with a certain helping of suspension of disbelief. No group can be 100% evil 100% of the time (and actually, even some of the listed BHs in this thread weren't as evil as advertised).

 

In a perfect world of course, they'd have made two versions of the class stories (to account for the light and dark archetypes), that you somehow selected between early on like your advanced class, so that everyone could get what they wanted out of it, and Skadge even could have been your first companion on the evil path, instead of the High Morals Brigade (although I totally love Mako, and have no plans to ever dismiss her). Different sets of companions could have alleviated the amounts of *** people will invariably suffer at one point or another, as it would have been easier to reason them into the story, instead of throwing them at you and being like DON'T ASK. But, you know, wish in one hand, blah blah tangent tangent.

[Jaigen]

1. Boba Fett and/or Jango Fett - amoral, ruthless, pragmatic, loner. Takes any job, has no real illusions of morality.

 

Don't know the rest but you are wrong on this guy. He was ruthless and pragmatic but he wasn't amoral and definitely had morals. The BH class took inspiration from Fett and he was a mandalorian. In short the bounty hunter's companions are well done as is the bounty hunter personality.

 

 

forget soldiers. Bounty hunters are more like pirates; self-interested thugs who live violent lives in defiance of law, without regulation, without any accountability that doesn't come at the end of the barrel of someone else's gun. Sure, theoretically, a gentlemanly, moral pirate could exist and limit his behavior... but there's no evidence that such a person has ever existed, no reason to believe that he would be representative of many other pirates if he were found, and no reason why a person like that would choose to work in such a criminally minded, amoral profession to begin with.

 

They are not pirates they are mercenaries. How did you come up with pirates?

Edited April 4, 2012 by Jaigen

[Sarog]

I used the example of the soldiers to highlight how one could easily type cast a profession or even a group of peoples. Being accountable doesn't change that type cast perception.

 

Basically your whole argument is a very broad collection of points going towards a conclusion of "you can't generalize". I think a lot of what you are saying strays far away from what I was talking about.

 

Imperials as evil in media. Yes, not all imperials are evil, obviously. No, not all imperials are depicted as evil throughout the franchise. Your objective of demonstrating that you can't apply the same judgment to an entire nationality is successful, partly because that's a self evident conclusion to begin with. Your objective of relating the point to what I said about bounty hunters however hasn't landed yet.

 

I argue that bounty hunters are a criminal, thuggish profession not simply because of one bounty hunter who I am basing the rest of the trend on. I'm not making a broad-strokes "you can judge the many by the few argument". My assessment of the bounty hunter profession is founded on the specific realities of the bounty hunting profession, which is why your trooper analysis also flounders. All the evidence says that bounty hunters are criminal enforcers who operate in a cutthroat culture without any particular respect for legitimate authority - even the SWTOR bounty hunter narrative indicates as much - and we have no evidence that counters this impression (if you are aware of a lawful, legitimate bail bondsman in star wars, who doesn't play rent-a-terrorist for criminal syndicates and only works under sanction of legitimate government, please link me to his wookiepedea entry.) That's not to say that there CAN'T be moral, lawful bounty hunters on principle (we have them in real life, after all), but that that simply isn't the CULTURE in this PARTICULAR franchise. In other words; bounty hunters in star wars are consistently shown in a certain way, therefore it is consistent with the product to assume that they are intended to be that certain way, ergo it is natural and defensible that fans expect it to be that certain way... and any personal interpretations that differ from that norm are aberrations, not the status quo.

 

Bounty hunters are what they are in the star wars franchise. Same as how smugglers are charming-but-crooked rogues. On principle, of course there CAN be exceptions to the norm (we're talking about fiction, not hard math, so obviously I realize that things can deviate from what has come before), but that doesn't change the fact that the class cultures exist as very well-defined parts of the franchise, and that when talking about said parts of the franchise we talk about what is actually in representation rather than imagined fanon of what could be that exists in the hearts and minds of every starry-eyed player but does not exist in print or on screen.

 

Don't know the rest but you are wrong on this guy. He was ruthless and pragmatic but he wasn't amoral and definitely had morals. The BH class took inspiration from Fett and he was a mandalorian. In short the bounty hunter's companions are well done as is the bounty hunter personality.

 

Not sure which "this guy" you mean, Boba or Jango, but they were both amoral. The important thing to remember is that mandalorian honour is NOT the same thing as morality. A mandalorian can be honourable but still be an amoral thug. Honour in warrior cultures is about the measurement of person's worth - as a sum of courage, potency, dependability, etc. Honour isn't about doing the right thing morally, it is about doing the "correct" thing to add inches to your warrior version of epeen. When mandalorians limit their behaviour and refuse to take dishonourable action, it has nothing to do with morality ("I'm not doing this because it would be wrong) and everything to do with the mando's ego ("I'm not doing this because it would reflect badly on me").

 

The Fetts were largely amoral, but still honourable within the extent of their personal beliefs. I'm not sure how someone could make a serious claim that the kind of person who murders his own business partner to keep that person quiet about illegal activities is a "moral" person.

 

They are not pirates they are mercenaries. How did you come up with pirates?

 

I didn't say bounty hunters are pirates. I said they are like pirates because of 1) the moral fibre demonstrated by representatives of the profession, 2) the illegal nature of the work they do and the subsequent lack of accountability they face, and 3) the extent to which people tend to romanticize them in ways that aren't consistent with the reality of their profession. In future maybe read something a few times thoroughly.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Sarog

[Revelationjp]

I don't like skadge personally, but I do appreciate him on my crew. One thing Bioware excels at is the archtypical "ragtag group of companions drawn together from different walks to a common purpose" meme, and I've always liked it. I didn't feel like he was forced on me, Gaul either. The way i remember the conversation was pretty much much, "I'm good at lifting heavy things and hitting people, get me off this rock and I'll do those things for you". My LS BH took him along with the stipulation that I'd be keeping an eye on him, and he hasn't caused a problem yet. He's even been amuzing somewhat. And given that his rep increased when I showed concern for torian when he went AWOL, I think he's a lot softer than he likes to appear, or at least values loyalty, kinda like Jayne from Firefly if you've seen it.

[TrumpetNut]

So, I told him I didn't want anything to do with him. Then he threatens to play stowaway anyway basically forcing me to take him with me. Now all he does is whine and complain that I make him do stuff because he forced me to take him with me.

 

Why did I have to take him with me in the first place? I would have found shooting/freezing him and collecting the bounty a perfectly acceptable option. It's not that I don't like him, it's that I despise him. Technically, my character does.

 

CMON make skadge playable for smuggler and BH devs!