Infiltration Rotation = /yawn

[heinywb]

Yes, well, Sentinels are a DPS-only class. If we go burst, we can equal their burst. If we go sustained, we can equal their sustained. In exchange for our ability to go tank if we want, they have the ability to out-sustain us while built for burst and out-burst us while built for sustained. Seems like a fair system to me.

 

except its not equal when we both go burst. my infl gear is modded to prioritize power. so my burst is about as good as its going to get. my top end (not normal) is a nats *** over 6k on a single hit. my guildy guardian with his gear modded to prioritize power top end on sweep is just over 7k.

 

and i havent seen a balance shadow put up over 600k total in a warzone as i dont play balance so seems sustained isnt equal either. watched the same guardian break 600k on multiple occasions last night, 660k being the high. hell i havent even seen a balance shadow out dmg my kc spec at 400k. maybe there just arent any good balance shadows on my server.

Edited March 27, 2012 by heinywb

[heinywb]

They might be able to sustain more damage in an ideal AoE situation, but that's it. Against single targets, Infiltration definitely has better sustained and burst damage. And either way, you're comparing a non-sustained spec to another non-sustained spec in terms of sustained damage. Balance beats them both by quite a bit.

 

true but infl's bread and butter is single target and kc is better at AOE. trying to put one in the others ideal situation is going to show poorer results naturally.

 

where as a guardian who is similar to a shadow in the fact that he has the options of tanking or dpsing depending on trees, has higher single target burst, better sustained, better AOE, and better survivability. and 1.2 might put sent's right up there with them. its why u see so many knights in the 10-49 bracket. as far as melee dps goes, they do almost everything better than the other 2 melee classes. i dont want to see knights nerfed but i would like all of us melee classes to be on an even playing field.

[Payneintherear]

They might be able to sustain more damage in an ideal AoE situation, but that's it. Against single targets, Infiltration definitely has better sustained and burst damage. And either way, you're comparing a non-sustained spec to another non-sustained spec in terms of sustained damage. Balance beats them both by quite a bit.

 

Compare a Scrapper Scoundrel and an Infiltration Shadow in terms of sustained dps then. The Scoundrel will be able to sustain a lot more damage than the Infiltration Shadow and has the option to spec for healing (which following the Marauder example should be an argument against this happening).

[AMKSED]

I will have to disagree. I love infiltration spec and the rotation I use kicks ***! CS,CS, (force Potency, battle readiness, and expertise stim) project, force breach, spinning strike. Game over 90% of the time. if still alive, cloak, re open spinning kick, then back stab.

 

It is quishy but if you have a good healer and give him a heads up that you are so and protect him you are golden. Once they see you take someone out in 3 seconds they will work to keep you alive.

 

Last night I hit 320K and damage and had a 4200k crit. All champ gear no BM gear.

 

That's cool and all. Considering you can do that spike only ever 2 mins. And if your target gets guarded and you get taunted then you're SOL.

[anstalt]

Sustaining damage on a shadow is definitely quite hard, you basically have to use blackout and force cloak whenever possible to keep up force regen but its definitely doable, its just harder to do in pvp due to moving targets.

 

I find that when I prioritise shadow strike as soon as I get the proc, my sustained DPS shoots up. With proc it only costs 25 force which isn't much, ignores 50% armour and has an inherant +30% crit multiplier. Using saber strike will virtually always give me the proc too. So, mixing in saber + shadow strikes along with usual cs/project/fb gives me quite nice burst potential as well as decent sustained dps.

 

Ofc, I might be deluding myself, I guess we'll see once we get logs and I can actually compare my DPS to guild sentinels

[heinywb]

Sustaining damage on a shadow is definitely quite hard, you basically have to use blackout and force cloak whenever possible to keep up force regen but its definitely doable, its just harder to do in pvp due to moving targets.

 

I find that when I prioritise shadow strike as soon as I get the proc, my sustained DPS shoots up. With proc it only costs 25 force which isn't much, ignores 50% armour and has an inherant +30% crit multiplier. Using saber strike will virtually always give me the proc too. So, mixing in saber + shadow strikes along with usual cs/project/fb gives me quite nice burst potential as well as decent sustained dps.

 

Ofc, I might be deluding myself, I guess we'll see once we get logs and I can actually compare my DPS to guild sentinels

 

well whats a normal VS for you? total dmg? infl, im breaking 250k, kc 350k, focus guardian 500k

[Cyannez]

well whats a normal VS for you? total dmg? infl, im breaking 250k, kc 350k, focus guardian 500k

 

Your looking at it from a wrong perspective imo. Balance thrives in totally opposed situation to focus. It all depends on the composition of the enemy / your team.

 

If your against a low numbers of healers / squishy targets that die fast your damage as balance will be pitiful where a focus guardian will do a great amount of damage since he'll basically have his "rotation" up for every new wave of the gy.

 

On the other side if the team is heavy on healers and your dots have time to tick for full 18 seconds on multiple targets to create pressure while you single target a healer let's say your damage will absolutely go through the roof.

 

I had this exact situation happen a few times since the reps on my server queue as a 6-7 man premade with at least 3 healers at off-peak hours . If they get a fourth pug healer than nothing is really dieing and i end up with retarded amounts of dmg as balance (700-800k). More in Alderaan middle turret stalemates, less in voidstar.

 

In a "normal" mix-matched wz where people have the decency to die in a reasonable amount of time i'm usually at 300-400k.

 

In a total stomp i can barely get 200k because targets die before i even get to use 2 dots so i'm forced to shock to keep the buff up and just spam trash (double-strike for you i think).

 

That's totally reversed for infiltration where if targets die in a focus pool+blackout then you are golden. If the fight drags on your dmg will just plummet since your sustained isn't the greatest and you are better off just trying to pool focus and trying to burst something down than trying to create "pressure".

[anstalt]

well whats a normal VS for you? total dmg? infl, im breaking 250k, kc 350k, focus guardian 500k

 

Listing my best scores so far:

 

Voidstar:

 

Inf - 380k

KC - 420k

 

Alderaan:

 

Inf - 310k

KC - 290k

 

Huttball:

 

Haven't ever tried for max damage in huttball, always a ball runner so unsure :S

 

 

Averages are obviously a lot lower. VS probs average 250k inf, 300k kc. Alderaan probs 270k for inf, 210k kc (unless I get stuck defending a turret).

 

But, numbers are meaningless. Voidstar favours AoE DPS due to lots of bunching up so KC always gets higher numbers. Alderaan is often much smaller groups, lots of kiting etc so inf easily beats KC.

[Philosomanic]

I don't really aim for DPS. If I focus on mindless damage-dealing (which is easy as Balance, since you can just sling DoTs left and right) and get top damage, but my team loses, I'm a failure. I'm more worried about the objectives.

 

However, I find that I almost always get top damage on my team (maybe 4/5 matches). That's all that's really important. If you have one healer and your enemy has 4, their DPS-ers are going to get higher damage totals than yours. Doesn't mean they were better at it, they just had higher uptime. If the fight is unbalanced, your only realistic goal is to beat the rest of your team, because the enemy has more heals, better players, better gear, or teamwork.

 

Also, Balance is the best for pressuring and killing healers (as an excellent post above me pointed out). We actually have increased force management if we have multiple targets to hit, and with three targets available we can go for minutes at a time and never run out. With our DoTs up and a little time to tick, we can put out ridiculous, punishing amounts of damage.

[Boarg]

Comparing total damage done in PvP, even though it’s what most people do, is really dumb. It has poor relation to actual killing power and value in PvP.

 

The problem is total damage is mostly dependant on the meta-game of the fights and the types of damage being done.

 

 

Take a different MMO with 2v2 arenas…dps+healer gets matched up against dps+healer. Turns out, no one can get kills…so the fight goes on and on, resulting in extremely high "total damage" values at the end. With the typical thinking people are using with this game, they would assume, "Wow, that's a lot of dps going on!" In reality, the only reason total damage is high there is because there's not enough dps going on.

 

 

Dynamic is a bit different in wz's because people get to rez, but much of the same thing is occuring. High total damage boards occur in wz's when the meta game of the wz is big clump vs. clump fights with people not dying fast enough for one clump to ever beat the other clump. Constant uptime + AoE flying around + long duration wz. Frequently, this occurs because there are too many tanks and healers on both sides and not enough high damage players….yet the boards at the end of the fight cause people to mistakenly believe otherwise.

 

Take out these low damage players (and AoE/DoT folks) and replace them with a bunch of Scrapper Scoundrels and Infiltration Shadows…classes with high burst damage…and the entire meta game changes. Instead, field confrontations result in quick and decisive victories one direction or the other. Total damage results for everyone goes way down because overall warzone uptime drops dramatically and there's less AoE to be doing.

 

Total damage doesn't win warzones. Getting quick kills and gaining numbers advantage does.

 

Part of why Kinetic consistently gets good total damage numbers is precisely because their damage is so mediocre and ill-suited to actually getting quick kills. Playing as a strong Infiltration player tends to result in different styles of games where your team actually gets kills - and in situations where they end up still fighting long sustained battles, their total damage is generally higher than Kinetic players standing next to them in the same battles if they are both staying alive.

 

Total damage has less to do with specs than it does the type of fights occuring, and doing low damage helps encourage the types of fights that result in high total damage.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Boarg

[heinywb]

first off the 2v2 comparison is irrelevant since this is a much larger group scenario. i can count on one hand the number of times there have been so many healers on both sides that it seemed no one was dying. this is an extremely rare occurrence. thus discarded.

 

as for the whole focus on dmg or focus on objectives.....if you cant do both at this point, i dont know what to tell ya. huttball seems to be the only map that numbers suffer on if you focus on objectives. VS, doing the objectives gets u big numbers. Alderaan, as long as your not the guy guarding a capt pt, you're probably doing dmg most of the match.

 

as far as the situation where someone said it depends on what you're fighting, thats true. but its true of everyones dmg. if targets die quick and you arent able to get as many hits in, the ppl who do lots of small dmg suffer....ie the ppl with good sustain. while the ppl who can drop the hammer the fastest look like Hercules. there's a happy medium. i wouldnt say that targets dying faster favors infl though. b/c if you cant find someone at full health you probably wont get ur big hits in and with no AOE, ur total dmg is sinking fast.

 

but this late in the tier most ppl are decently geared. there is the occasional fresh/noob 50 that telekenetic throw ticks for 2635 (lol happened last night) on but thats not the norm

[heinywb]

Comparing total damage done in PvP, even though it’s what most people do, is really dumb. It has poor relation to actual killing power and value in PvP. i think the experience and intelegance level of the ppl still commenting in this thread is high enough to be well aware of how dmg works and that some numbers are inflated. being condescending at this point is kinda rude.

 

The problem is total damage is mostly dependant on the meta-game of the fights and the types of damage being done. true but this is typically across the board for an entire team not just one individual

 

 

Take a different MMO with 2v2 arenas…dps+healer gets matched up against dps+healer. Turns out, no one can get kills…so the fight goes on and on, resulting in extremely high "total damage" values at the end. With the typical thinking people are using with this game, they would assume, "Wow, that's a lot of dps going on!" In reality, the only reason total damage is high there is because there's not enough dps going on.

 

 

Dynamic is a bit different in wz's because people get to rez, but much of the same thing is occuring. High total damage boards occur in wz's when the meta game of the wz is big clump vs. clump fights with people not dying fast enough for one clump to ever beat the other clump. Constant uptime + AoE flying around + long duration wz. Frequently, this occurs because there are too many tanks and healers on both sides and not enough high damage players….yet the boards at the end of the fight cause people to mistakenly believe otherwise. i mentioned this i think in the post above this one but this example situation is an exception. this doenst happen in every wz, nor does it happen in every VS. this isnt the average. i posted average numbers not my average numbers when the stars align in a VS just right where no one gets past the first door and we all fight on one side and no one ever dies.

 

Take out these low damage players (and AoE/DoT folks) and replace them with a bunch of Scrapper Scoundrels and Infiltration Shadows…classes with high burst damage…and the entire meta game changes. Instead, field confrontations result in quick and decisive victories one direction or the other. Total damage results for everyone goes way down because overall warzone uptime drops dramatically and there's less AoE to be doing. see answer above, this will almost never happen. im not sure why examples of extremes is even being used

 

Total damage doesn't win warzones. Getting quick kills and gaining numbers advantage does. so a couple of guardians dropping 5-6k force sweeps followed by 4k bladestorms isnt winning warzones? this actually satisfies both quick kills and high total dmg. out of the 12 matches my group played last night, the guardian i run with had a largest hit that ranged from 5400-6200 over the course of those 12 matches. he is hitting hard, quick and following up with fillers that do good dmg. sustain is high (i know force sweep is aoe) and burst is good. so high overall and the ability to kill a player quick. its not just one or the other like shadow/assassins. you'd think if a spec could do it all they would be more towards the mediocre side while one that specialized would be better at it but thats not the case.

 

Part of why Kinetic consistently gets good total damage numbers is precisely because their damage is so mediocre and ill-suited to actually getting quick kills. Playing as a strong Infiltration player tends to result in different styles of games where your team actually gets kills - and in situations where they end up still fighting long sustained battles, their total damage is generally higher than Kinetic players standing next to them in the same battles if they are both staying alive. if both are only beating on 1 person each maybe but even with infl's high burst, a couple of slow times more than make up for it if its hitting several ppl over the course of the min and a half it takes for cds to come off cooldown for the infl

 

Total damage has less to do with specs than it does the type of fights occuring, and doing low damage helps encourage the types of fights that result in high total damage. sometimes. but for all the times, total dmg has more to do with the AC than anything else. gear and skill being equal of course.

 

 

 

 

.....

Edited March 29, 2012 by heinywb

[Boarg]

first off the 2v2 comparison is irrelevant since this is a much larger group scenario. i can count on one hand the number of times there have been so many healers on both sides that it seemed no one was dying. this is an extremely rare occurrence. thus discarded.

 

as for the whole focus on dmg or focus on objectives.....if you cant do both at this point, i dont know what to tell ya. huttball seems to be the only map that numbers suffer on if you focus on objectives. VS, doing the objectives gets u big numbers. Alderaan, as long as your not the guy guarding a capt pt, you're probably doing dmg most of the match.

 

as far as the situation where someone said it depends on what you're fighting, thats true. but its true of everyones dmg. if targets die quick and you arent able to get as many hits in, the ppl who do lots of small dmg suffer....ie the ppl with good sustain. while the ppl who can drop the hammer the fastest look like Hercules. there's a happy medium. i wouldnt say that targets dying faster favors infl though. b/c if you cant find someone at full health you probably wont get ur big hits in and with no AOE, ur total dmg is sinking fast.

 

but this late in the tier most ppl are decently geared. there is the occasional fresh/noob 50 that telekenetic throw ticks for 2635 (lol happened last night) on but thats not the norm

 

The 2v2 thing isn't a comparison, it's just a more obvious illustration. In the WZ situation, people don't have to never die....just die slowly enough that they can fight a lot before dying and rez back in fast enough that the clump vs. clump fight continues for minutes at a time. This is the norm in warzones, currently.

 

Clump vs. Clump is what results in the big board numbers. Clump vs. Clump only occurs out of failure to crush your opponents.

 

If your group had strong burst damage, initial kills would happen in less than 15s and steamroll the rest of the way from numbers advantage...that's crushing an opponent. Clump vs. Clump meta collapses as soon as it starts, and the huge board numbers never occur because the enemy is in their rez area and trying to figure out where to run to and die next as soon as they get there.

[heinywb]

The 2v2 thing isn't a comparison, it's just a more obvious illustration. In the WZ situation, people don't have to never die....just die slowly enough that they can fight a lot before dying and rez back in fast enough that the clump vs. clump fight continues for minutes at a time. This is the norm in warzones, currently.

 

Clump vs. Clump is what results in the big board numbers. Clump vs. Clump only occurs out of failure to crush your opponents.

 

If your group had strong burst damage, initial kills would happen in less than 15s and steamroll the rest of the way from numbers advantage...that's crushing an opponent. Clump vs. Clump meta collapses as soon as it starts, and the huge board numbers never occur because the enemy is in their rez area and trying to figure out where to run to and die next as soon as they get there.

 

not on my server. clump vs clump only happens at the start of alderaan sometimes and in VS but for it to occur like ur describing there has to be just the right amount of very tanky classes and several healers....on both sides. on my server, this doesnt happen often.

 

actually i can tell you the circumstances that lead to it. if there are 3 or more healers on the opposing team, then it has a chance to happen. 2 healers and we burn one, then the other then clean up the rest. with 4 guys on vent, its fairly easy. course i only play on one server and can only tell you what i see in warzones but what your describing doesnt even happen an above avg amount of times.

[Boarg]

not on my server. clump vs clump only happens at the start of alderaan sometimes and in VS but for it to occur like ur describing there has to be just the right amount of very tanky classes and several healers....on both sides. on my server, this doesnt happen often.

 

actually i can tell you the circumstances that lead to it. if there are 3 or more healers on the opposing team, then it has a chance to happen. 2 healers and we burn one, then the other then clean up the rest. with 4 guys on vent, its fairly easy. course i only play on one server and can only tell you what i see in warzones but what your describing doesnt even happen an above avg amount of times.

 

It's the norm on mine...and all the recent threads of people whining about Kinetic Shadows hitting number like 400k damage in a warzone is evidence of it occuring elsewhere often enough to get complaints. Kinetic can't hit those type of numbers without clump vs. clump style fighting.

 

2 healers in a group, or even 1 with lots of tanky players is enough to sustain it in pug vs. pug wz's when you figure in people rezzing and running back in fast enough to keep it going. Like I said, it's not that people don't ever die, it's that they don't die fast enough to clear out the opposition.

 

If you are playing half-premades in vent and coordinating targets, yeah, your impressions likely would be different. Most warzones are pug vs. pug with no voice communication, though.

 

 

And none of what you said disputes my main point of why comparing total damage isn't particularly valuable. (Because it's mostly about type of fighting and damage types instead of actual killing capability.) It's just saying which types of fighting happens more often in your experience.

[Boarg]

Selection of AC has a tendency of leading to certain types of fighting.

 

Most likely (at least from the way they talk) most of the people posting here are usually one of the top players on their team in any given warzone, in terms of skill and ability.

 

If you take any given wz group, and change one of the two best players in the group from a burst AC to a tank AC, or vice versa, chances are high that it will noticably change the type of fighting happening in the warzone. You're completely changing the abilities and strengths of that top player and adapting their playstyle to fit those.

 

It ends up being a self-fulfilling prophesy given certain "conventional wisdom" based expectations.

 

If the expectation is that Infiltration does low damage, a high skill player helping their team get quick kills leads to fighting types that result in lowish total damage scores on the board.

 

If the expectation is that Kinetic does high damage, a high skill player helping their team survive while throwing out steady and AoE damage over long periods of time leads to fighting types that result in highish total damage scores on the board.

 

However, those total damage values disguise the reality that Infiltration blows Kinetic out of the water in terms of killing power. If people put too much stock in the total damage comparison without putting it in proper contexts and applying critical thought, they would arrive at erroneous conclusions.

Edited March 30, 2012 by Boarg

[Payneintherear]

Kinetic can't hit those type of numbers without clump vs. clump style fighting.

 

How do you get to that conclusion honestly? Kinetic's sustained dps is at the very least as high as Infiltration's and both of them can get 400k+ without a single AE. I know because I have done it.

[mredders]

How do you get to that conclusion honestly? Kinetic's sustained dps is at the very least as high as Infiltration's and both of them can get 400k+ without a single AE. I know because I have done it.

 

A KC shadow will have higher dps on the board due to there aoe but overall will kill far less while the Inf shadow.

[Payneintherear]

A KC shadow will have higher dps on the board due to there aoe but overall will kill far less while the Inf shadow.

 

I am talking about sustained single target dps. I am not talking about killing nor AoE.

[Froteus]

Having an infiltration open on me as a KC shadow does not make nearly as nervous as a scoundrel/agent opening on me as I have yet to encounter one I didn't absolutely destroy.

 

Really infiltration and balance either need to have more utility and survivability, or more damage. I can do far more for my team in a larger variety of compositions and situations as KC simply due to the ability to survive and make use of all the utility. The non tank trees need some love.

[Cyannez]

Having an infiltration open on me as a KC shadow does not make nearly as nervous as a scoundrel/agent opening on me as I have yet to encounter one I didn't absolutely destroy.

 

Really infiltration and balance either need to have more utility and survivability, or more damage. I can do far more for my team in a larger variety of compositions and situations as KC simply due to the ability to survive and make use of all the utility. The non tank trees need some love.

 

Really now, let's not get ahead of ourselves. If it's one thing that infiltration/deception doesn't need it's more dmg. The burst is retarded as it is on light/medium armor. And more then fine vs heavy as well with a high internal dmg skill and a 50% armor ignore one. I get 5k+ discharges and 4k+ mauls on full tanks when i pop my cds, how much more do you want?. I'll give you that they need more utility / survivability. Same for balance/madness.

 

PS: operatives are joke vs darkness as they can't put any pressure. Just kite them with wither / force lightning while they can't ever hit you again after the opener. At least as infiltration / deception i can stay on a darkness sin. As an op there is no chance if he has a clue.

[anstalt]

How do you get to that conclusion honestly? Kinetic's sustained dps is at the very least as high as Infiltration's and both of them can get 400k+ without a single AE. I know because I have done it.

 

I don't believe that KC can reach anywhere near the sustained damage of infiltration.

 

I play both specs regularly, and in pve I am often the offtank, so tank specced but DPS geared. This means gear is identical between inf and tank spec for me in most raids, except offhand.

 

When in inf I do tons more sustained damage than KC. Combat logs will prove it in next patch

[Sayrir]

CS, CS > Project > SS > breach, didn't work? You're either dead, or you wont be killing anything that is being healed from then on. This means heavy reliance on force potency+ relics etc. and non existant defensive CD's. This whole class is /yawn. And balance is a joke aswell, you're dead in any competitive enviorment(equal gear/CD's) before you accomplish anything.

[Philosomanic]

CS, CS > Project > SS > breach, didn't work? You're either dead, or you wont be killing anything that is being healed from then on. This means heavy reliance on force potency+ relics etc. and non existant defensive CD's. This whole class is /yawn. And balance is a joke aswell, you're dead in any competitive enviorment(equal gear/CD's) before you accomplish anything.

 

You really ought to actually give Balance a serious try, and it doesn't count unless you're level 40 or above (Balance matures late).

 

But hey, you can't handle those? Fine. There are lots of good Kinetic Shadows out there, but they're the ones who are good enough players that they can handle the other specs. They choose Kinetic because they like the tanking/support part of it. I like those players, because they keep me alive.

 

People like you who can only function as Kinetic (and can't fathom any other spec being good) are bad players. You're not a good player who's tanking, you're a mediocre (at best) player that's using your high defenses as a way to get away with low talent. You're taking a spec that's support-oriented, and playing it as DPS. Yeah, you don't die as often, but you're also not helping your team nearly as much.

 

I enjoy killing players like you on my Balance Shadow. Keep up the good work!

Edited March 30, 2012 by Philosomanic

[Sayrir]

You really ought to actually give Balance a serious try, and it doesn't count unless you're level 40 or above (Balance matures late).

 

But hey, you can't handle those? Fine. There are lots of good Kinetic Shadows out there, but they're the ones who are good enough players that they can handle the other specs. They choose Kinetic because they like the tanking/support part of it. I like those players, because they keep me alive.

 

People like you who can only function as Kinetic (and can't fathom any other spec being good) are bad players. You're not a good player who's tanking, you're a mediocre (at best) player that's using your high defenses as a way to get away with low talent. You're taking a spec that's support-oriented, and playing it as DPS. Yeah, you don't die as often, but you're also not helping your team nearly as much.

 

I enjoy killing players like you on my Balance Shadow. Keep up the good work!

 

Nice assumptions, seriously awesome imagination you've got there. I rolled a Shadow to play DPS, I hate Kinetic, and I hate tanking, I used it briefly while leveling and I do just fine as Balance btw, then I hop onto my Marauder and do ten times better, without dying, ever. Level 50 and BM on both btw.

 

Liked the part with the good players rolling kin to tank, and not do retarded burst while maintaining tank survivability aswell. GJ.

 

Here's a comparison you can make when you play both a Marauder and a Shadow:

 

Marauder defensive CD's(as annihilation):

http://www.torhead.com/ability/fYZIabE/undying-rage (90sec, think this is reduced with annihilation talents?)

http://www.torhead.com/ability/8cvm3LN/bloodthirst (+15% healing, ontop of the damage)

http://www.torhead.com/ability/f2xdW1C/force-camouflage (note the awesome CD time, talent in annihilation reduces damage taken by 100% while camo is active)

http://www.torhead.com/ability/91opIPj/obfuscate (60sec)

http://www.torhead.com/ability/e6Gx7aj/predation (awesome when specced)

http://www.torhead.com/ability/arJX2s8/cloak-of-pain (heavy armor woop, shadow has light?)

http://www.torhead.com/ability/6X4UAzp/force-charge

http://www.torhead.com/ability/6HsgY8K/saber-ward

+ the healing from DoT's, pretty great when combined with bloodthirst(or on it's own), but then you can't pop predation obviously.

 

Shadow defensive CD's(as balance)

http://www.torhead.com/ability/dEsVsc4/resilience (note the CD, I think most people pop this at the same time as force cloak, so this can be pretty moot)

http://www.torhead.com/ability/d0UsepC/deflection (note the CD)

http://www.torhead.com/ability/5vQeBNe/force-cloak (note the CD)

http://www.torhead.com/ability/dx8uUfu/force-speed

+ healing from dots(which we all know is pretty great right)

 

Might've forgotten some, but meh, Undying Rage(99% damage reduction CD) > everything anyway.

 

But it's ok, we have stealth.

Edited March 30, 2012 by Sayrir