Ammo Vs Heat: Its the same

[CharleyDanger]

Ammo Vs Heat

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Ammo Bar Vs Heat Bar

12 Ammo = 100% bar

 

100 Heat = 100% bar

 

Trooper abilities cost 2 or 3 ammo

BH abilities generate 16 or 25 Heat

 

Trooper ability that cost 3 ammo = 25% of the bar

Trooper ability that cost 2 ammo = 16.66% of the bar (Does the .66 matter? Well 16.66/100 = 6.0024. So thats 6 abilities. Lets wait to look at the BH before we decide if .66 means anything)

 

BH ability that generates 25 heat = 25% of the bar

BH ability that generates 16 hear =16% of the bar (16 is less than 16.66 right? Well, 16/100 = 16.25. So thats 6 abilities. Is that same as the trooper?)

 

To be fair, If the trooper and BH spammed their 16% attacks 6 times the BH would have 4% and the trooper would have 0 ammo. But what can a BH do with 4%? The smallest attack costs 16%. By the time the BH regens to 16% the trooper will have regened 2 ammo. Virtually there is no in game advantage.

 

So a 12 ammo bar is no different than a heat bar of 100. Its an illusion that one bar is 4% bigger. Both bars represent 100%. So 1 ammo = 8.33% of the bar. In no way can I get off an extra ability because my bar is measured in 100 and your bar is measured in 12.

 

 

Ammo regeneration Vs Heat dissipation

 

 

Trooper

8-12 - Ammo regenerates at .60/sec: 5 sec = 3 ammo (25%)

3-7 - Ammo regenerates at .36/sec: 5 sec = 1.8 ammo (15%)

0-2 - Ammo regenerates at .24/sec: 5 sec = 1.2 ammo (10%)

 

Bounty Hunter

0-39 - Heat dissipates at 5/sec: 5 sec = 25 Heat (25%)

40-79 - Heat dissipates at 3/sec: 5 sec = 15 Heat (15%)

80-100 - Heat dissipates at 2/sec: 5 sec = 10 heat (10%)

 

The regen/dissipate mechanic are exactly the same.

 

 

So if both bars equal 100%, and both bars regenerate/dissipate exactly the same, how is one better than the other?

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Is it easier to check a 100% bar of dissipation than it is to check a 12 ammo bar (8.33% per bar)? Only to someone who does not know how to manage the bar against the CD of their rotation. If you play your BH/Trooper right than you would never even need to look at the bar. Attack A followed by B followed by C followed by D will always equal X amount of ammo/heat. After attack D, A is off CD and your left with X amount of ammo/heat. Rinse and repeat. As far as spaming in a tight spot, minor advantage to the BH. How could Bioware ruin the game with this imbalanced nonsense.

Edited April 27, 2012 by CharleyDanger

[GitRDone]

Ammo Vs Heat

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Trooper abilities cost 2 or 3 ammo

BH abilities generate 16 or 25 Heat

Venting Heat Gives 50 heat. 50/16 = 3.125 Flame Bursts

Rechage Cell gives 6 energy. 6/2 = 3 Ion Pulses

Winner: BH

 

Trooper ability that cost 3 ammo = 25% of the bar

Trooper ability that cost 2 ammo = 16% of the bar

 

BH ability that generates 25 heat = 25% of the bar

BH ability that generates 16 hear =16% of the bar

 

Ammo regeneration Vs Heat dissipation

 

 

Trooper

8-12 - Ammo regenerates at .60/sec: 5 sec = 3 ammo (25%)

3-7 - Ammo regenerates at .36/sec: 5 sec = 1.8 ammo (15%)

0-2 - Ammo regenerates at .24/sec: 5 sec = 1.2 ammo (10%)

 

Bounty Hunter

0-39 - Heat dissipates at 5/sec: 5 sec = 25 Heat (25%)

40-79 - Heat dissipates at 3/sec: 5 sec = 15 Heat (15%)

80-100 - Heat dissipates at 2/sec: 5 sec = 10 heat (10%)

 

The regen/dissipate mechanic are exactly the same.

Trooper: 2 Ion Pulses away from losing Top Regen rate [(12-8)/2]

Bounty Hunter: 2.4375 Flame Bursts away from losing Top Regen rate [(39-0)/16]

Who has an easier time bursting down a healer?

Winner: BH

 

So if both bars equal 100%, and both bars regenerate/dissipate exactly the same, how is one better than the other?

They don't regenerate exactly the same. The top regen safety margin for BH is cosiderably larger than Troopers. This matters alot when trying to burst DPS a healer.

 

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Is it easier to check a 100% bar of dissipation than it is to check a 12 ammo bar (8.33% per bar)? Only to someone who does not know how to manage the bar against the CD of their rotation. If you play your BH/Trooper right than you would never even need to look at the bar. Attack A followed by B followed by C followed by D will always equal X amount of ammo/heat. After attack D, A is off CD and your left with X amount of ammo/heat. Rinse and repeat. As far as spaming in a tight spot, minor advantage to the BH. How could Bioware ruin the game with this imbalanced nonsense!

 

Your math is purposely misleading. Also, nobody follows their rotations. You fight. Stuff happens. Then you adapt. Sometimes, this means thowing a cryo grenade to save a healer even though it puts you under the top regen range. Sometimes it means harpooning someone about to cross the goal line. Having an extra 20% ammo capacity within the top regen rate is considerable when you have to constantly adapt to ever changing combat situations.

 

 

 

Responses in red

Edited April 2, 2012 by GitRDone

[Baelish]

All the numbers you see in tooltips are rounded. Everything is, under the hood, exactly the same cost/benefit as a proportion of a full bar.

[Hizoka]

All the numbers you see in tooltips are rounded. Everything is, under the hood, exactly the same cost/benefit as a proportion of a full bar.

 

not really, with the trooper you only break the regen "levels" when you get the full ammo, you have a greater "grace" period with the BH

[hadoken]

All the numbers you see in tooltips are rounded. Everything is, under the hood, exactly the same cost/benefit as a proportion of a full bar.

 

Exactly, people are seeing imbalances where there aren't.

[Herew]

not really, with the trooper you only break the regen "levels" when you get the full ammo, you have a greater "grace" period with the BH

 

Even if this is true, it's still bad design. Bad design that makes no sense, other than that the classes were originally not designed to be mirrors and then they forgot to change this to.

[Baelish]

not really, with the trooper you only break the regen "levels" when you get the full ammo, you have a greater "grace" period with the BH

You might, perhaps, be correct, but I don't believe you can possibly know with any accuracy whether you are or not.

 

Even if this is true, it's still bad design. Bad design that makes no sense, other than that the classes were originally not designed to be mirrors and then they forgot to change this to.

 

I would bet real money that the way they do the design of the class is: design it once, then change the cosmetics (names, animations, whether it counts down or up). So much easier.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Baelish

[Toogeloo]

How hard is it really to just change Troopers to having a 100 Ammo pool?

[LordbishopX]

Even if this is true, it's still bad design. Bad design that makes no sense, other than that the classes were originally not designed to be mirrors and then they forgot to change this to.

 

Yeah playing both I feel ammo issues more than I feel heat issues but maybe its just in my head but certainly feels that way even seems longer to reload than to drop heat lol. So yeah the math may say it's the same but it doesn't feel the same when I play both....

[GitRDone]

Yeah playing both I feel ammo issues more than I feel heat issues but maybe its just in my head but certainly feels that way even seems longer to reload than to drop heat lol. So yeah the math may say it's the same but it doesn't feel the same when I play both....

 

It isn't the same. Even assuming the calculation is 17 heat for a flame burst, your top regen margin is:

[(39-0)/17] = 2.29 Flame bursts before losing top tier regen.

 

 

Exactly, people are seeing imbalances where there aren't.

 

I should really to stop responding to people who don't have any numbers to back their statements, especially when contrary numbers are given.

 

You might, perhaps, be correct, but I don't believe you can possibly know with any accuracy whether you are or not.

 

 

 

I would bet real money that the way they do the design of the class is: design it once, then change the cosmetics (names, animations, whether it counts down or up). So much easier.

 

See above numbers. Will that be cash or credit or paypal?

Edited April 2, 2012 by GitRDone

[Katahn]

Looking at that chart I notice that the BH is able to do a fractional amount more of a discrete attack. The thing that comes to mind though is that if the BH can do 3.3 or something and the Trooper can do 3 of it (before losing top tier regen) then they both lose top tier regen on the 4th usage yes?

 

By itself the problem isn't the fractional additional usages, I think it is that combined with the nature of the regen. The BH would only need to wait enough time to regenerate .7 of a use to safely use that ability a 4th time while the Trooper would have to wait the full amount of time for a unit of ammo to regenerate.

 

Over a short duration I don't think this would amount to a problem, although over a long enough duration the small benefit a BH gets would start to add up. I'd have to see more data points on how these abilities get used "for real" instead of just "in theory" - something complicated by the fact that experienced Trooper players may have already adjusted how the play to account for that to favor different rotations...

[busterbone]

Ammo Vs Heat

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Ammo Bar Vs Heat Bar

12 Ammo = 100% bar

 

100 Heat = 100% bar

 

Trooper abilities cost 2 or 3 ammo

BH abilities generate 16 or 25 Heat

 

Trooper ability that cost 3 ammo = 25% of the bar

Trooper ability that cost 2 ammo = 16% of the bar

 

BH ability that generates 25 heat = 25% of the bar

BH ability that generates 16 hear =16% of the bar

 

So a 12 ammo bar is no different than a heat bar of 100. Its an illusion that one bar is 4% bigger. Both bars represent 100%. So 1 ammo = 8.33% of the bar. In no way can I get off an extra ability because my bar is measured in 100 and your bar is measured in 12.

 

2 ammo out of 12 ammo is not 16% of the bar. 2/12 = 16.6667% which is closer to 17%

 

Ammo regeneration Vs Heat dissipation

 

 

Trooper

8-12 - Ammo regenerates at .60/sec: 5 sec = 3 ammo (25%)

3-7 - Ammo regenerates at .36/sec: 5 sec = 1.8 ammo (15%)

0-2 - Ammo regenerates at .24/sec: 5 sec = 1.2 ammo (10%)

 

Bounty Hunter

0-39 - Heat dissipates at 5/sec: 5 sec = 25 Heat (25%)

40-79 - Heat dissipates at 3/sec: 5 sec = 15 Heat (15%)

80-100 - Heat dissipates at 2/sec: 5 sec = 10 heat (10%)

 

The regen/dissipate mechanic are exactly the same.

 

 

So if both bars equal 100%, and both bars regenerate/dissipate exactly the same, how is one better than the other?

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Is it easier to check a 100% bar of dissipation than it is to check a 12 ammo bar (8.33% per bar)? Only to someone who does not know how to manage the bar against the CD of their rotation. If you play your BH/Trooper right than you would never even need to look at the bar. Attack A followed by B followed by C followed by D will always equal X amount of ammo/heat. After attack D, A is off CD and your left with X amount of ammo/heat. Rinse and repeat. As far as spaming in a tight spot, minor advantage to the BH. How could Bioware ruin the game with this imbalanced nonsense!

 

So you are admitting that BH's have a minor advantage some of the time? Minor imbalances are still imbalances. I'm sure if the situation was reversed and it was the BH who was "only a little worse" you'd definitely care about a minor imbalance. Why do you support one class being slightly superior than its "mirror"?

 

And by the way, as a BH/Trooper you definitely need to look at the bar. "Attack A followed by B followed by C followed by D" will NOT always equal X amount of ammo/heat, because we get certain heat-reducing procs some of the time. It's absurd to suggest that Troopers don't need to look at their ammo bar.

[Zunayson]

How hard is it really to just change Troopers to having a 100 Ammo pool?

 

Too hard, apparently

 

Heck, in Alpha, ammo didn't regen, recharge cells was instant, and had a 9 second cooldown.

[KiranK]

Ammo Vs Heat

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Ammo Bar Vs Heat Bar

12 Ammo = 100% bar

 

100 Heat = 100% bar

 

Trooper abilities cost 2 or 3 ammo

BH abilities generate 16 or 25 Heat

 

Trooper ability that cost 3 ammo = 25% of the bar

Trooper ability that cost 2 ammo = 16% of the bar

 

BH ability that generates 25 heat = 25% of the bar

BH ability that generates 16 hear =16% of the bar

 

So a 12 ammo bar is no different than a heat bar of 100. Its an illusion that one bar is 4% bigger. Both bars represent 100%. So 1 ammo = 8.33% of the bar. In no way can I get off an extra ability because my bar is measured in 100 and your bar is measured in 12.

 

 

Ammo regeneration Vs Heat dissipation

 

 

Trooper

8-12 - Ammo regenerates at .60/sec: 5 sec = 3 ammo (25%)

3-7 - Ammo regenerates at .36/sec: 5 sec = 1.8 ammo (15%)

0-2 - Ammo regenerates at .24/sec: 5 sec = 1.2 ammo (10%)

 

Bounty Hunter

0-39 - Heat dissipates at 5/sec: 5 sec = 25 Heat (25%)

40-79 - Heat dissipates at 3/sec: 5 sec = 15 Heat (15%)

80-100 - Heat dissipates at 2/sec: 5 sec = 10 heat (10%)

 

The regen/dissipate mechanic are exactly the same.

 

 

So if both bars equal 100%, and both bars regenerate/dissipate exactly the same, how is one better than the other?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Is it easier to check a 100% bar of dissipation than it is to check a 12 ammo bar (8.33% per bar)? Only to someone who does not know how to manage the bar against the CD of their rotation. If you play your BH/Trooper right than you would never even need to look at the bar. Attack A followed by B followed by C followed by D will always equal X amount of ammo/heat. After attack D, A is off CD and your left with X amount of ammo/heat. Rinse and repeat. As far as spaming in a tight spot, minor advantage to the BH. How could Bioware ruin the game with this imbalanced nonsense!

 

Given that all of your math is purposely rounded to fit your argument and not accurate, nor even rounded correctly to begin with, your entire argument is moot. Use the calculator program in your accessories next time.

[Hizoka]

love when people try to act smart and only prove the opposite...

[Achromatis]

I dont see why they cant both just use Heat, it works for both classes(especially Vanguards) and Blasters dont use "ammo" anyway. Sure a BH uses his flamethrower and rockets... but they use their GUN just as much, so just Heat doesnt make 100% logical sense for them either but they use it. Which doesnt matter anyway, because then Smugglers and Agents would need to use Ammo but they dont.

 

Problem solved, do I get a cookie?

[DoctorSaki]

Even if this is true, it's still bad design. Bad design that makes no sense, other than that the classes were originally not designed to be mirrors and then they forgot to change this to.

 

You are correct, the beta build before the one around july or august they were two different classes. When they decided to go with the mirroring route in that build they changed troopers to reflect an opposite but similar system to the bounty hunters to differentiate the two but in the end troopers in their original form were scrapped and they were made to be mirrors of bounty hunters as the class i guess was better polished.

 

Gunnery back then was extremely boring, was more based on auto attacks full auto and an ability that no longer exists in the game. But the general gist of the tree was that you were using a BFG and you were just there to mow people down with it.

 

History aside, when i am playing on my trooper it's a lot more "annoying" to manage my resources compared to my bounty hunter as i played the bounty hunter more overall. I personally don't see a difference in the management between the two visually or management wise but i am not looking at the mathmatics. Though it wouldn't surprise me since it's taken the devs a long time just to adjust the animations for full auto and mortar volley, there is a strong possibility that you may be on to something given the fact that these two classes in particular were once VERY different from one another.

Edited April 6, 2012 by DoctorSaki

[Hizoka]

I dont see why they cant both just use Heat, it works for both classes(especially Vanguards) and Blasters dont use "ammo" anyway. Sure a BH uses his flamethrower and rockets... but they use their GUN just as much, so just Heat doesnt make 100% logical sense for them either but they use it. Which doesnt matter anyway, because then Smugglers and Agents would need to use Ammo but they dont.

 

Problem solved, do I get a cookie?

 

or call it "energy cells" and make it out of 100. THe issue is not the short tern but the long term. When it costs 16.7% of a trooper to do most their skills and it costs a BH 16% over time it adds up.

[KhamG]

I hope the devs see this:)

 

Two bars of 100 makes a lot of sense

[Upurss]

I hope the devs see this:)

 

Two bars of 100 makes a lot of sense

 

actually it seems a lot more easier balancing a commandos ammo than it does a bh's heat

 

I think you're just trying to nerf troopers cause you're jelly

[Hizoka]

I hope the devs see this:)

 

Two bars of 100 makes a lot of sense

 

me too cause at this point my BH is more fun then my trooper and he is more powerful because of the better resource

[Upurss]

tl;dr

 

post: nerf troopers ez math

[CharleyDanger]

Venting Heat Gives 50 heat. 50/16 = 3.125 Flame Bursts

Rechage Cell gives 6 energy. 6/2 = 3 Ion Pulses

Winner: BH

 

Wow, really?. 0.125 advantage. I would have to use vent heat 10 times to get a 1.25 heat advantage. I would have to use vent heat 128 times to get off an extra flame burst. Again, wow.

 

Trooper: 2 Ion Pulses away from losing Top Regen rate [(12-8)/2]

Bounty Hunter: 2.4375 Flame Bursts away from losing Top Regen rate [(39-0)/16]

Who has an easier time bursting down a healer?

Winner: BH

 

I can tell your book smart, but how about some common sense lol. Both BH and trooper would be under the top regen on the 3rd attack. You would have to go through a ton of rotations before seeing an advantage. You act as if the BH is getting extra abilities off left and right. The fact is that in an entire WZ a BH might get 2 or 3 extra abilities off, and thats over how many fights? 30, 40 maybe?

 

They don't regenerate exactly the same. The top regen safety margin for BH is cosiderably larger than Troopers. This matters alot when trying to burst DPS a healer.

 

No it is not. The trooper does not fall below the top regen until they hit 7 ammo. That means that 41.66% (5 ammo bars) of ammo can be used before falling below the top. regen. The BH does not fall below the top regen untill they hit 40% heat. It is virtual the same. There is no advantage what so ever. You are talking a 1.66% advantage. Thats, ill round your way this time lol, 1/8 of a minor ability lol.

 

Your math is purposely misleading. Also, nobody follows their rotations. You fight. Stuff happens. Then you adapt. Sometimes, this means thowing a cryo grenade to save a healer even though it puts you under the top regen range. Sometimes it means harpooning someone about to cross the goal line. Having an extra 20% ammo capacity within the top regen rate is considerable when you have to constantly adapt to ever changing combat situations.

 

Its misleading? how?

 

Even if you do not follow your rotation how hard is it to know your current ammo. You are subtracting 2 or 3 from your bar. Only a glance is needed if any to keep up lol. I have a lvl 50 Vanguard, I have no problem keeping track.

 

In this whole thing I forgot to mention that my main is a damn trooper lol. I only made this thread bc I was tired of guys like you QQing over meaningless fractions.

Edited April 11, 2012 by CharleyDanger

[CharleyDanger]

Given that all of your math is purposely rounded to fit your argument and not accurate, nor even rounded correctly to begin with, your entire argument is moot. Use the calculator program in your accessories next time.

 

My math is rounded because the abilities are rounded. Dose a 2 ammo trooper ability use 2 ammo or 2.something? I round to 16 not because it fits my argument, but because it fits how the game plays.

 

If you look at the percentages a BH can get off 2.4 flame bursts when a trooper can only get off 2. How do I use .40 of flame burst sir? 3 flame burst put a BH below top regen. 3 pulse put a trooper below top regen. The math fits if you just use some common sense.

 

Does 2 ammo equal 16.66%, yes. Does 2 ammo use 17% of the bar, no. 17% would mean using 3 ammo. Do 2 ammo abilities cost 3 ammo?, no they do not lol. This is why 2 ammo uses 16% not 17%. You have to round down because to do other wise would mean using 3 ammo on 2 ammo abilities, follow?

 

 

Sorry for the double post

Edited April 11, 2012 by CharleyDanger

[durvas]

My math is rounded because the abilities are rounded. Dose a 2 ammo trooper ability use 2 ammo or 2.something? I round to 16 not because it fits my argument, but because it fits how the game plays.

 

If you look at the percentages a BH can get off 2.4 flame bursts when a trooper can only get off 2. How do I use .40 of flame burst sir? 3 flame burst put a BH below top regen. 3 pulse put a trooper below top regen. The math fits if you just use some common sense.

 

Does 2 ammo equal 16.66%, yes. Does 2 ammo use 17% of the bar, no. 17% would mean using 3 ammo. Do 2 ammo abilities cost 3 ammo?, no they do not lol. This is why 2 ammo uses 16% not 17%. You have to round down because to do other wise would mean using 3 ammo on 2 ammo abilities, follow?

 

 

Sorry for the double post

 

Yes, it does matter. .67 is over 4% of 16. It's a 4+% difference in the cost of the ability, not something to ignore. That's not even taking into account the 25% bigger max regen range of heat (33.3% compared to 40%). Over time in pve, the costs add up to a lot and in burst situations, one is clearly superior.

Edited April 11, 2012 by durvas