Alderaan Warzone: If you're Losing DON"T CAP!

[SabreMerc]

CW has a mathematical point of no return. If you reach that on the losing side, you cannot come back unless you 3-cap, which is nearly impossible to acquire ...

 

It's a valid attitude.

 

Mathematical point of no return only exists once the scoreboard shows up. Case and point... I was playing a premade with a couple of friends. We queue up, WZ pops and I think to myself sweet. Turrets. I love this WZ!

 

But then we get in... and our team has a whole 5 people! I make a comment about how great the odds are looking, but rather than give up we push both right and left.

 

Guess what... we capped right AND left against a full team. Granted they took them back shortly afterwards, but eventually we got a full team and managed to pull out a win AND ended up stomping people.

 

When you get all jacked up the army has a saying: drink water and walk it off. You aren't going to ever be a winner if you sit a cry over your wounds (real or metaphorical). If you sit and cry or just stand there once YOU think the game is lost, not only are you ruining it for those that want to push on, but you're also going to continue to lose.

 

Adversity makes you stronger. 300-5 CAN still be won, and if you pull it off it is sweet. By standing around and whining when the scoreboard doesn't look very good you're really just saying that you want an easy win. Personally, I prefer a challenge to overcome. Whether it's trying to (and sometimes succeeding) ninja the untaken points, or to set up a pass chain to make a comeback... or even stomping the guy that just killed me...

 

IMHO if you're playing just for an easy win, or give up as soon as it appears you will lose... I really think you need your own WZ's and don't deserve any of the rewards. I don't care if the rest of my team is standing around mid till the game ends - I will continue to take points. Cause you know damn well if I ninja'd the other two the sandbaggers in the center would start playing again.

 

It's really sad that every single time I jump on a new character and queue WZ at level 10... I end up in the top 3 slots on the scoreboard. That just goes to show how hard some people are trying... if the quitters were actually trying that shouldn't ever happen.

[Tyraelium]

Mathematical point of no return only exists once the scoreboard shows up. Case and point... I was playing a premade with a couple of friends. We queue up, WZ pops and I think to myself sweet. Turrets. I love this WZ!

 

But then we get in... and our team has a whole 5 people! I make a comment about how great the odds are looking, but rather than give up we push both right and left.

 

Guess what... we capped right AND left against a full team. Granted they took them back shortly afterwards, but eventually we got a full team and managed to pull out a win AND ended up stomping people.

 

When you get all jacked up the army has a saying: drink water and walk it off. You aren't going to ever be a winner if you sit a cry over your wounds (real or metaphorical). If you sit and cry or just stand there once YOU think the game is lost, not only are you ruining it for those that want to push on, but you're also going to continue to lose.

 

Adversity makes you stronger. 300-5 CAN still be won, and if you pull it off it is sweet. By standing around and whining when the scoreboard doesn't look very good you're really just saying that you want an easy win. Personally, I prefer a challenge to overcome. Whether it's trying to (and sometimes succeeding) ninja the untaken points, or to set up a pass chain to make a comeback... or even stomping the guy that just killed me...

 

IMHO if you're playing just for an easy win, or give up as soon as it appears you will lose... I really think you need your own WZ's and don't deserve any of the rewards. I don't care if the rest of my team is standing around mid till the game ends - I will continue to take points. Cause you know damn well if I ninja'd the other two the sandbaggers in the center would start playing again.

 

It's really sad that every single time I jump on a new character and queue WZ at level 10... I end up in the top 3 slots on the scoreboard. That just goes to show how hard some people are trying... if the quitters were actually trying that shouldn't ever happen.

 

You are misunderstanding the OP...and hate to break it to you but "topping the scoreboards" in warzones is not indicative of your PvP skills whatsoever.

 

In fact, fixation over and citing of charts as proof of PvP prowess is often the signs of a delusional PvP beginner.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Tyraelium

[SabreMerc]

You are misunderstanding the OP...and hate to break it to you but "topping the scoreboards" in warzones is not indicative of your PvP skills whatsoever.

 

In fact, fixation over and citing of charts as proof of PvP prowess is often the signs of a delusional PvP beginner.

 

I agree, but you obviously misunderstand the point I was trying to make, or you're trying to nitpick to remove the validity of my point.

 

Let me break it down for you:

 

Spartans defeated massive opposing forces through using tactical superiority. Granted they ended up dying in the end, but the point should still be clear.

 

Throughout history real men have been faced with a "obvious defeat" only to end up winning. The difference is that real men and women push on against adversity rather than just pouting.

 

THAT was my point. Placement on the scoreboard is only relevant when you're looking at it as a whole. All of the stats are indicitive of certain things, and by just discounting it you're also discounting a good measure of performance.

 

Damage and healing both represent how well people are doing at their jobs. A healer shouldn't be sitting at 10,000 healing, DPS shouldn't be at 20,000 damage. If you notice a DPS character is ALWAYS assaulting or defending a point, the 150,000 or 200,000 damage DOES mean something. It means he was contributing quite a bit to the group effort. Same thing for points for taking the objectives. Conversely if that same DPS character ends up with only 15k damage, its probably a good chance he wasn't assaulting it with the team... or using ANY kind of teamwork.

 

Completely disregarding the stats is foolish.

 

However, I will agree that if all you're doing is looking at the scoreboard you're making mistakes as well. A player who is only focusing on soloing characters off in the middle of nowhere... sure he might be higher on the scoreboard. Not paying attention to who is where is also foolish. It is both a tactical folly, and it means at the end of the game you don't know who did what.

 

Nitpick all you want, but each and every stat on that board serves a purpose. Just because many players don't know how to use the scoreboard stats doesn't reduce their value.

Edited March 25, 2012 by SabreMerc

[Tyraelium]

I agree, but you obviously misunderstand the point I was trying to make, or you're trying to nitpick to remove the validity of my point.

 

Let me break it down for you:

 

Spartans defeated massive opposing forces through using tactical superiority.

 

Throughout history real men have been faced with a "obvious defeat" only to end up winning. The difference is that real men and women push on against adversity rather than just pouting.

 

THAT was my point. Placement on the scoreboard is only relevant when you're looking at it as a whole. All of the stats are indicitive of certain things, and by just discounting it you're also discounting a good measure of performance.

 

Damage and healing both represent how well people are doing at their jobs. A healer shouldn't be sitting at 10,000 healing, DPS shouldn't be at 20,000 damage. If you notice a DPS character is ALWAYS assaulting or defending a point, the 150,000 or 200,000 damage DOES mean something. It means he was contributing quite a bit to the group effort. Same thing for points for taking the objectives. Conversely if that same DPS character ends up with only 15k damage, its probably a good chance he wasn't assaulting it with the team... or using ANY kind of teamwork.

 

Completely disregarding the stats is foolish.

 

However, I will agree that if all you're doing is looking at the scoreboard you're making mistakes as well. A player who is only focusing on soloing characters off in the middle of nowhere... sure he might be higher on the scoreboard. Not paying attention to who is where is also foolish. It is both a tactical folly, and it means at the end of the game you don't know who did what.

 

Nitpick all you want, but each and every stat on that board serves a purpose. Just because many players don't know how to use the scoreboard stats doesn't reduce their value.

 

Sorry but your Spartan analogy is not apt here at all. And besides, the Spartan's didn't hold at Thermopylae and defeat the Persians and come from behind in the 4th quarter to win. They still lost the battle and got slaughtered. Maybe you are implying that somehow you will "win the war" (in your analogy; supporting Athens/Marathon) by delaying inevitable losses and gaining valor at a slower rate? Not sure. Its more advantageous to both sides to end the game and requeue (something the Spartans did not have the option to do). Your extra effort in delaying a loss isn't noble, its just futile.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Tyraelium

[SabreMerc]

Sorry but your Spartan analogy is not apt here at all. And besides, the Spartan's didn't hold at Thermopylae and defeat the Persians and come from behind in the 4th quarter to win. They still lost the battle and got slaughtered. Maybe you are implying that somehow you will "win the war" (in your analogy; supporting Athens/Marathon) by delaying inevitable losses and gaining valor at a slower rate? Not sure. Its more advantageous to both sides to end the game and requeue (something the Spartans did not have the option to do). Your extra effort in delaying a loss isn't noble, its just futile.

 

Lol. Its more advantageous to end the game early... that is only advantageous to a person who is willing to only accept wins.

 

YOU AREN'T the only one playing.

 

As far as the Spartans, I'm not drawing an analogy of that one battle to a warzone match. The mindset of the spartans in the context of the war helped turn the tide. What I was trying to illustrate is that the mindset that they had is what enabled this to happen. If you apply the mentality of doing your part inside a WZ even in the face of adversity you will do better than giving up. The Swiss decided "why bother" to get involved in a conflict (WWII) and what happened? Mentality means a lot.

 

I could have highlighted modern conflicts or some of my own personal situations in them, however the problem with that is it would start a completely different and unintended conversation.

 

In real life, having a defeated attitude and giving up results in death. In the game there aren't the same consequences, but what I have noticed is when people have the "screw it let em win already" mentality, they tend to run into the exact same scenario over and over.

 

So the question is:

By constantly giving up, are you more likely to win or to continue to lose?

 

Sure, you may get your dailies faster if you just give up each time you start losing. But you'd probably get them a hell of a lot faster if everyone on your team actually tried. Lack of coordination, communication, and teamwork is what is responsible for the majority of losses. Sure, you might run into a team that does all of the above better at some point - but those equally (or slightly inequal) matches are the most fun out of all of them.

 

When working in a team, what you personally want doesn't matter as much as the goals of the team. As soon as people start saying "screw you guys I'm going home" you've already lost regardless of how close to victory or defeat you really are.

 

Bottom line, if you want to just let them win when YOU THINK they are actually going to win, then just GET OUT and let those of us that want to continue to try do so. Just because I have people on my team that are sitting at one point and crying doesn't mean I'm going to compromise a CAN DO attitude.

Edited March 25, 2012 by SabreMerc
swear filter resulted in potential loss of meaning

[Gonewild]

^ This.

 

The "let them win" crowd needs to stop queuing.

 

This mentality will proliferate in nonrated WZs I'm afraid- and I can't wait until rated WZs. This attitude is defeatist- i'm very lucky that few on my server share it.

 

I will always fight back, against the grain- no matter how futile it seems.

[Mithros]

Why would I equate my real life philosophy to that of a video game? Therein lies your issue. Real life means something, while video games don't, which is exactly why there's no reason to be a try-hard in a video game when the loss is inevitable. Don't be a scoreboard hero.

 

Then why do you even play the game? It's a video game. It doesn't matter, right?

 

Those medals you are so worried about? That's just more video game stuff that you say doesn't matter.

Yet, for some reason, you not only want those medals, you want them as quickly as possible.

 

I am not there to lay down for anyone. I will not lay down to give the enemy a faster victory, and I sure won't lay down so that you can cash out faster.

[Wintervoid]

Reasons why I will continue to try and win the game after it is near impossible to come back:

 

1. I would like to participate in one of those rare games where there is a miracle comeback.

 

2. I do not want to quit on my team. I feel it is disrespectful to those that are still trying to win.

 

3. I have fun trying to win, even against insurmountable odds.

 

4. I want to learn something new. Perhaps a new tactic, or the way an enemy or teammate reacts. If it is a premade we are fighting, we will see them again.

 

I tend to do this when we are winning as well. If the Imps are gathering at one node to collect Defender medals, I will Stealth behind them and hit them with XS Flyby. Then it is a game to see how long I can survive the retaliation. As a healer, this is good practice for when I get focused.

[SpaceGaunt]

^ This.

 

The "let them win" crowd needs to stop queuing.

 

Plus 1.

[olagaton]

Selfish players are selfish.

 

It's comical (and hypocritical) to see people getting mad at those that want the games to end early. Those that don't want the game to end early, or want to keep trying to win have no right to expect others to follow their lead.

 

People come into warzones with completely different objectives all day long. Some are there for fun. Some need their daily wins. Some just need their 3 kills. Some want to learn strategies. Some want to experience a come from behind win. You can't truly expect everyone in the warzone to have the same goal, and go along with it completely, because everyone has different motivations for playing the game the way they do in the first place. Some people are time-restricted, and want to get as many games in as possible. Some aren't, and want to enjoy the story-line or follow through with a game. Neither is more entitled to have their experience fulfilled than the other.

[face_hindu]

All you squids who advocate quitting in the face of adversity:

 

Post your toon and server name.

 

Why hasn't anyone taken me up on this?

 

Maybe because you know you're BAD, and you want to stay anonymous.

 

Ah, the internet.

 

Tell me to my face about how you think I should let the other guys win, about how I should just roll over like a pansy.

 

Some people are givers and some are takers.

 

C'mon takers, post your toons and servers. Any of you have the cajones?

 

Oh wait, I'm talking to a bunch of people who roll over and die in the face of tough odds.

 

Of course you won't show yourselves.

[Pekish]

i can't believe that guy that keep replaying such and preach to be looser... honestly when i was younger nobody would ever had such a shameful attitude.

 

Honestly i would love to know the name of the char of those people i wouldn't mind avoid them all in pvp even if it means to drop a minigame and lose valor or commandation

[Serpenttt]

The people that are losing big that camp at their one node for medals are pathetic. At least try.

[sonarghost]

Couple Points:

 

I was in this one warzone where we where down 250-5 and we won!

 

That is the laws of averages. Citing one example of an event and stating, ITS POSSIBLE. is like stating I won the lottery. You can toooooOOOO!!!!!!! Ok Tony Robbins.

 

Lets just use realistic facts.

 

Huttball win or lose has nothing to do with me. However, I have been known to help the other team score if I see them farming. Down getting scored on? Its over. Seen comebacks happen but honestly the good teams spawn rally to center wait for you to score and re-score finish you off if you get a comeback going.

 

Down right/left early I won't leave middle.

 

You can do whatever you want. I don't much care about your opinion of how I should play or view matches.

 

Your like the guys at the blackjack table telling people not to hit a soft 13 against a dealer 2. Don't tell people how to spend their money or time. Shut up and play. Either way. What bothers me is people who don't know the warzones at 50. That is like the guy at blackjack who splits 10's. What? What? What?

 

Like say fighting off the node your guarding. Charging into 7 players alone. I got this! Those nubs dont stand a chance against my light armor. I am going in 7vs1.

 

Just play and worry about yourself.

 

If I want to punch people in the face or dance on the noid after a long day of pvping and have fun who cares. Sometimes I fight cause I hate the team I playing. others I quit when i run into the 8 man same time queing 4/4 guild team trying to facerolll wzs.

 

Other times I just need those comms and want to play an alt.

 

Whatever. Do what ya want. These forum people would have you believe exiting huttball prior to start is your fault you don't want to play huttball.

 

For someone that "doesn't care" about what other people think you sure do come across as awfully angry. Did someone personally attack you in this thread?

[Veeius]

op: stop being bad.

 

"**** they just sank all the battleships in the 7th fleet"

"wow. fail. Ok, well, let's just surrender."

 

 

Not to mention that I pvp to, you know, pvp. It's not as fun when I lose, but it's still fun. What's NOT fun is listening to quitters QQ. The game is over when the scoreboard is up.

[Sziroten]

1. CW can be won at any time until scoreboard shows up. "Teaching" people an attitude that they should stop when it's "impossible" (while in fact, it is possible until your team hits 0), you leave the choice of that "moment" to individuals. Now OP might think that 10:600 is impossible, other people will start much earlier to get their def points and because of them, the team is losing which is the reason I think this attitude is wrong.

 

2. only Voidstar is "definately" lost if the enemy team progressed faster, as far as I remember this will be addressed with 1.2, finishing the game as soon as the team in the second round progressed faster. Therefore with this change, there is no rightful solution in any warzone at any time or situation to stop trying to win.

 

3. people like OP are the reason you don't have massive open scale PvP because if everyone "mathematically" calculates that, if the opposite team has more people = you will end up losing, no one would engange open PvP.

 

Also please for those which agree with OP, post your chars/ server.

 

never tell me the odds

Edited March 26, 2012 by Sziroten

[QuiJonPed]

 

This is my favorite warzone & it does not even pop enough, gotta play too much Huttball waiting for this, so I do not quit Alderaan.

 

This.

[Astarica]

Just because Reggie Miller scored 8 points in 9 seconds doesn't mean you should expect to win a game of basketball while down 7 points with 10 seconds left to play.

 

Of course there are always the miraculous comebacks but those are just that, miraculous comebacks.

 

Usually I try to kill whoever I can even while badly losing since defender medals takes a while to accumulate so I might as well try to kill somebody, though if it looks like I am the only person charging up against a sea of reds I'll be forced to hang out by the turret. If half of your team is standing by the turret there's pretty much no conceiveable way the other 4 guys can mount an effective comeback, so sometime you got to call your losses if you got too many quitters.

 

Usually the best thing to do in an obvious losing effort is to find another guy and try to sneak attack another point. If you see 4 guys defending then you can just AFK since the enemy saw through it, and if they didn't see through it, you might as well attack and see what happens.

[Digtahk]

You are misunderstanding the OP..

 

 

No actually we understand the OP just fine, the only sort of pvp they enjoy is when they are being boosted to victory against a group of poorly skilled/geared players. They spam their one button to their hearts content and tell themselves they are nothing short of genius. Of course as soon as they meet a half decent team they go and hide in a corner and call everyone else nabs.

 

You learn very little in victory against weak players this is when they should be sitting down on the turret not participating, when faced with overwhelming odds or more skilled players is when they should be getting stuck in honing their skills and learning to play.

 

They are also the type of player who says the scoreboard is a completely inaccurate means of measuring their pitiful performance, what they fail to realise is that under any possible performance measure the result would be the same.

 

It boils down to pride at the end of the day........they clearly have none.

[Raginmunkyz]

The "quitter" attitude is the biggest problem with PvP in swtor. It's an epidemic, with people quitting the moment the other team has any sort of advantage, and without ever even attempting to shift the balance. Voidstar is the only WZ that has an actual point of no return, both Huttball and CW can be won up until the end, and everyone should TRY to win up until the end. I personally only give up when I realize that the rest of my team has given up and I'm sick of dying because I'm getting ganged up on 6 to 1 with no backup.

 

Honestly, the most confusing part of this mindset to me is that in my opinion, the WHOLE POINT of PvP is winning through adversity. I do not remember anything about any of the landslide victories in WZ's, but weeks or months later, I still happily recall the times that a game of Huttball was won after being down 3 or 4 goals, or we won a WZ with 6 players to the opposition's 8, or a game of CW came down to 0-5 (I've seen it happen twice, it's awesome), or better yet, we DID come back from a 3 cap or being doubled up in score; I've been in games where that has happened a few times as well.

 

I don't understand how you couldn't think those are the most fun games possible, or maybe you just aren't playing the game for the sake of fun (which is weird, it is a "game" after all). If you're only playing so that you can win in massacres and easy victories, go PVE against mindless drones. I thought the whole point of playing humans was to experience something more challenging. No one is forcing you to play WZ's, so if you're going to play them, ACTUALLY play them. Don't encourage more people to give up, because believe me, you quitters are already well in the majority, and you're all making the game much less fun for those of us who are actually trying to enjoy it.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Raginmunkyz

[Veeius]

ITT: A bunch of internet try-hards that like to prolong inevitable losses because they think they're hardcore. If it's going to be a loss, and you have your 4 medals, quit being a futile/scoreboard hero please.

 

ITT a cool ethug who doesn't understand that the ends of a *GAME* should not be pixels of pretty purp lewtz gained more quickly because he gave up. The ends in this case is pvp, NOT getting loot. If it is all about getting loot for you, then, well, I'm sorry for you.

 

Me? I likes to keel manz. It's great if my side wins, but if they don't, I still get to keel manz, so I'm happy as a lark.... an evil lark.... with a light saber.... and a grin.

[QuiJonPed]

Some want to experience a come from behind win.

 

Personally speaking, this IS the best kind of win. *cough*

[Bullsith]

So basically you want people to lie down and get ****ed if it looks like you might now win, because... you say so?

 

Bet you were one of those guys in Alterac Valley telling everyone to let the other team win before the game even started.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Bullsith

[artemsilenkov]

Agree with many that quitting or fast surrendering is quite a terrible thing. If you do something do it with perfection or at least try. Even if you are overwhelmed, beaten and surrounded. Make an effort. Make a try. Thats just a game. Medals or fast daily it is not so important. But to play a game and do nothing to win it is not normal. It is just brainless farming full of rage and sorrow. Make fun. Try to win and kill as much as possible )) Thats my opinion )) So I'm not insisting to rush 1vs8 for death endlessly but cooperate wisely, find appropriate tactic and try to overcome.

 

It will be very cool to implement strong debuff or even negative MVPs with XP or money loss at the end in case of strong mathematicals which do nothing but sitting at the corner all wz long 'cos "they have too much tanks-healers-skill" and so on.

Edited March 26, 2012 by artemsilenkov

[Tyraelium]

No actually we understand the OP just fine, the only sort of pvp they enjoy is when they are being boosted to victory against a group of poorly skilled/geared players. They spam their one button to their hearts content and tell themselves they are nothing short of genius. Of course as soon as they meet a half decent team they go and hide in a corner and call everyone else nabs.

 

You learn very little in victory against weak players this is when they should be sitting down on the turret not participating, when faced with overwhelming odds or more skilled players is when they should be getting stuck in honing their skills and learning to play.

 

They are also the type of player who says the scoreboard is a completely inaccurate means of measuring their pitiful performance, what they fail to realise is that under any possible performance measure the result would be the same.

 

It boils down to pride at the end of the day........they clearly have none.

 

The gear and skill level of the other team is irrelevant. Only thing that matters here is your team's performance. If your team could not hold 2 caps for 10 minutes then you will not hold 3 caps for 5.

 

We are not saying "don't PvP", we like to PvP too. But seeing how there are only 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, and a limited amount of weeks in a reset, we'd like to get as many meaningful games in as possible, maximizing valor/commendations we can can accrue more gear at a faster rate. This is what defines smart MMO players from bad 'casual' ones.

 

Given the choice between PvPing the next 5 minutes against impossible odds for a miniscule chance at a tiny marginal reward boost or requeuing and using those same 5 minutes towards a new game, we'll pick to requeue, and over the course of a day, week, or month, we have effectively gained more valor than you in the same amount of time. When the next patch comes, you'll be the group that crys for free gear, and we're the group thats saying gear should be more exclusive.

 

That is why most of the people who know how to Warzone effectively with their time are already full BM rank 70+ players (and most have already stopped playing SWTOR). I wouldn't care if we faced off against the same team, thats fine. But at least we would be spending our team in meaningful PvP instead of delaying the inevitable.

 

Nobody in this thread is advocating quitting when the score is 500-400. Thats dumb. However, if the score is 240-100, you've lost the game. If the score is 320-155, you've already lost. To think that you are going to overcome getting 2 capped and respond by holding 3 caps for 5 minutes is just ludicrous in this Warzone. It does not happen and when it does, its because the other team disconnects from the server or otherwise booted from the Warzone. Thats the ONLY time it happens.

 

We're not saying "give up in the face of adversity", but instead, know when you've lost and respect your fellow player's time. If you were a good PvPer you would want to face them again in a match you know you stand a chance in winning, not one where you must turn water into wine and hold a perfect 3 cap against a team that has dominated you for the past 10 minutes.

 

I laugh at people who attack nodes "past the point of no return". I genuinely ask them "What do you hope to accomplish by getting this node", if I see someone who has 4+ Medals trying to mount one of these comebacks, because nothing they do can affect the outcome of the match as long as I have a connection to the server.