When can we expect to see a nerf of the Hybrid Sin/Shadow?

[LordbishopX]

Ok. I could see that it was in Combat Technique but even in the HD resolution I couldn't see what the final damage was at the end. I assume it was well under 300k damage based on the comment made by the poster and I think it's actually somewhere in the 100k area since it doesn't look like the damage number starts with a 2. And I'll be charitable and say that the odds of going up against a good, quality team in pre-50 WZs is.. rare (you can find a lot of good individuals, though).

 

So what are you actually saying you proved there?

 

It was almost 200k I hit 200k as a level 11 gunslinger tossing just grenade every 6 secs now that was fun.

Edited March 29, 2012 by LordbishopX

[lokivoid]

Assassin/shadow wise a hybrid will loose everytime to a pure specc sin/shadow tank

(assuming equal gear and player ability)

 

Hybrids are good for hit and run harrassment and ball running thats about it. In toe to toe fight they dont have the staying power.

 

Infact in a 1v1 fight on two equally geared and skilled players the Pure specced tank will win over the hybrid. The only advantage the hybrid has is the ability to instacast whirlwind and run like a $^

[cycao]

Ok. I could see that it was in Combat Technique but even in the HD resolution I couldn't see what the final damage was at the end. I assume it was well under 300k damage based on the comment made by the poster and I think it's actually somewhere in the 100k area since it doesn't look like the damage number starts with a 2. And I'll be charitable and say that the odds of going up against a good, quality team in pre-50 WZs is.. rare (you can find a lot of good individuals, though).

 

So what are you actually saying you proved there?

 

durrr, the problem is not the spec its the skill double strike and thrash.

 

 

I'm actually having a hard time following myself on whats going on in this thread. They should just slap a restriction that makes your gear tied into what stance you are in.

[Neamhan]

I lol'd.

 

 

 

Well off course you are not getting 700k without aoe damage. That was not the point in the first place. But able to put out only 300k single-target damage with that much protection and healing, don't you think it's a bit silly?

 

Not when you have 0 deaths in a Voidstar match that ends in a 0-0 tie (meaning they entire 15 minutes was spent on the first set of doors).

[heikaze]

Not when you have 0 deaths in a Voidstar match that ends in a 0-0 tie (meaning they entire 15 minutes was spent on the first set of doors).

 

Well the picture clearly state that is what happened.

 

I guess you win. I can't seem to prove my point to you with the countless proof that was provided. Since you just come back with another suggestion on "this circumstance was met, so the class can do this and that." Clearly, it's the "pocket healers" that is making the class OP.

[Neamhan]

The healing from hits done while in dark charge also adds to the healing count.

 

I've done 100k several times as well. Not common, but I've done it.

 

Easiest circumstances to get 100k healing as a tankasin is when you're in one of those voidstar games where both teams have several healers. No one dies, full upme, game ends 0-0 max duration. I think I've actually reached 110k in those situations.

 

With less than 500k damage as well. Really just depends on who is standing around and what they're doing. Obviously you'll be using wither a lot to build stacks, but they don't always hit a lot of people. If you're a regular in warzones that people like taunting a lot (or enemy team just has several tanks throwing aoe taunts regularly) that's going to lower your damage too.

 

Again, not common, but not really difficult to reproduce in zerg heavy situations where you manage to stay alive and have lots of uptime particularly if healers are around just getting hit and healing it back.

 

That's pretty much what I'm saying, too. I didn't include the Combat Technique heal proc (or the small Battle Readiness heal) because it doesn't seem like either would really be a high percentage of the total healing done. 450 health ever 5 seconds (at best, if you have full 100% uptime on a target) seems small compared to the 2450 heal I get from full Harnessed Shadows stacks, but combat logs might prove me wrong on that one, too.

[LordbishopX]

ooops out Edited March 29, 2012 by LordbishopX

[Neamhan]

durrr, the problem is not the spec its the skill double strike and thrash.

 

Wait, what's wrong with Double Strike/Thrash now? Is there anything a Shadow/Assassin has that isn't 'overpowered'?

[LordbishopX]

Wait, what's wrong with Double Strike/Thrash now? Is there anything a Shadow/Assassin has that isn't 'overpowered'?

 

 

Hater's gonna hate guess my grenade is OP http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/JulianMarsalis/Screenshot_2012-02-28_21_29_58_210503.jpg

[ShadowOfVey]

Wait, what's wrong with Double Strike/Thrash now? Is there anything a Shadow/Assassin has that isn't 'overpowered'?

 

 

There's only one way to solve this.

 

Nerf operatives again

[-Sithis-]

That's pretty much what I'm saying, too. I didn't include the Combat Technique heal proc (or the small Battle Readiness heal) because it doesn't seem like either would really be a high percentage of the total healing done. 450 health ever 5 seconds (at best, if you have full 100% uptime on a target) seems small compared to the 2450 heal I get from full Harnessed Shadows stacks, but combat logs might prove me wrong on that one, too.

 

Dude. In that vid I just made, I was top damage on my team (197k) I died 8 times and got at least 4 or 5 full respawns. I got 25k healing JUST FROM THE COMBAT TECHNIQUE PROC!

 

You are so clearly in denial about your own class that it seems useless reasoning with you.

 

Mind you, when my Shadow friend got 400k with only double strike, he may have been using defensive cooldowns as well, but in this video I just hi double strike over and over and win. Unfortunately I don't have a lvl 50 Shadow or I could test this with gear, but the principle is the same.

[Astarica]

I have done 200K on a level 10 merc spamming Power Shot so 400K on one of those 0-0 Voidstar match doesn't seem at all difficult. The Darkness rotation moves are nowhere near double the DPF compared to Thrash even if you never use Shock for Energize, so if you could do 700K using regular rotation moves 400K with only one move sure is possible. Now it'd be harder to Thrash because it requires melee range compared to 10m moves, but in a 0-0 Voidstar you can just melee another melee, who would have no reason to try to get out of melee range against you.

[cycao]

Wait, what's wrong with Double Strike/Thrash now? Is there anything a Shadow/Assassin has that isn't 'overpowered'?

 

Well...how about Dark Ward;)

[-Sithis-]

Hater's gonna hate guess my grenade is OP http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/JulianMarsalis/Screenshot_2012-02-28_21_29_58_210503.jpg

 

Except your grenade is AoE.... Double strike is single target and 100% spammable.

[Neamhan]

Well the picture clearly state that is what happened.

 

I guess you win. I can't seem to prove my point to you with the countless proof that was provided. Since you just come back with another suggestion on "this circumstance was met, so the class can do this and that." Clearly, it's the "pocket healers" that is making the class OP.

 

Pocket healers make most classes 'overpowered'. Hint: none of those classes are actually overpowered. As a matter of fact, this game has far better class balance than WoW does, which is especially remarkable considering how new this game still is.

 

Most of what I would consider imbalances in this game are with a few ACs being somewhat underpowered (Operatives, for example, could use a survivability buff of some kind to mitigate all the damage nerfs they've suffered) but the difference between the 'top end' classes (Marauders/Sentinels being at the top imo) and the 'average' classes isn't as big as people like to make them out to be.

[heikaze]

Pocket healers make most classes 'overpowered'. Hint: none of those classes are actually overpowered. As a matter of fact, this game has far better class balance than WoW does, which is especially remarkable considering how new this game still is.

 

Most of what I would consider imbalances in this game are with a few ACs being somewhat underpowered (Operatives, for example, could use a survivability buff of some kind to mitigate all the damage nerfs they've suffered) but the difference between the 'top end' classes (Marauders/Sentinels being at the top imo) and the 'average' classes isn't as big as people like to make them out to be.

 

Lol, so you expect a rated warzone, or pre-made vs pre-made not include any healer at all? Is that your definition on game balance? No heals involved? Not saying Marauders are not a good class, but they definitely does not bring the support and utility that a tank spec Shadow/Assassin brings, while maintaining the damage.

Edited March 29, 2012 by heikaze

[Astarica]

For the pocket healer argument, let's assume a healer exists (if one doesn't, your team is generally pretty screwed).

 

If you guard the healer, even the most selfish healer will usually heal you back because keeping you alive keeps himself alive indirectly through the Guard. Sure, some people are extremely unthankful, but unless you're both unthankful and stupid, you'll realize that it's beneficial to heal the guy guarding you just for your own sake.

 

Of course, for any healer who actually knows what they're doing, healing the hardest guy to kill when he takes damage is no brainer. By definition you're putting your heals in the most effective form by healing the guy who is hardest to kill AND taking damage. And of course if for some reason you're not taking damage, you don't even need a healer to begin with.

[LordbishopX]

Except your grenade is AoE.... Double strike is single target and 100% spammable.

 

Yeah I also was 12 with no sprint and 2 talents pts qq...

 

Challenge accepted lol tonight single target spammable skill or lowest cd class of choice hmmmm. PT/BH/JUG/Gun/OP???

Edited March 29, 2012 by LordbishopX

[LordbishopX]

For the pocket healer argument, let's assume a healer exists (if one doesn't, your team is generally pretty screwed).

 

If you guard the healer, even the most selfish healer will usually heal you back because keeping you alive keeps himself alive indirectly through the Guard. Sure, some people are extremely unthankful, but unless you're both unthankful and stupid, you'll realize that it's beneficial to heal the guy guarding you just for your own sake.

 

Of course, for any healer who actually knows what they're doing, healing the hardest guy to kill when he takes damage is no brainer. By definition you're putting your heals in the most effective form by healing the guy who is hardest to kill AND taking damage. And of course if for some reason you're not taking damage, you don't even need a healer to begin with.

 

You have never PUG on my server lucky to find a healer and then even luckier if he tosses u a heal guard or not....

Edited March 29, 2012 by LordbishopX

[Astarica]

Wait, are people complaining 27/0/14 being overpowered? Death Field has a 15s CD. You don't pad DPS with a skill that can only be used every 15 seconds unless it instantly killed enemy. It heals you for 3% of your health if you hit 3 targets and sure it does decent damage but it'll do significantly less damage than Wither over time even without accounting for the stack of HD. You're not going to easily heal yourself for 100K by healing 3% every 15 seconds, since that's a lot less than what 3 stacks of HD heals for which can be obtained shorter than once every 15 seconds in 31/0/10.

 

Really 27/0/14 just brings impressive numbers. Not that these numbers aren't useful but you don't have to worry about having your team crushed by Wither and then see another guy Force Speed ahead and bomb a door unopposed. In pretty much every Voidstar game, on offense my role is to Force Pull/snare the entire team after a door falls so someone else can bomb the next door without opposition. I actually die a lot doing this too since it'd be like 1 on 6 in open terrain but this is also why I have very few 1-0 or 0-0 screenshots to show off awesome DPS numbers because games tend to end at 6-0 when you can chain bomb the enemy doors.

 

Dark Charge accounts for a significant amount of healing. I'm not sure you can do 300K damage 100K healing though. I've done 100K healing but usually I do way more than 300K damage in this case. You'd have to be fighting a team of heavy armor classification guys the whole time to have your damage that low while healing yourself.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Astarica

[Neamhan]

Dude. In that vid I just made, I was top damage on my team (197k) I died 8 times and got at least 4 or 5 full respawns. I got 25k healing JUST FROM THE COMBAT TECHNIQUE PROC!

 

You are so clearly in denial about your own class that it seems useless reasoning with you.

 

Mind you, when my Shadow friend got 400k with only double strike, he may have been using defensive cooldowns as well, but in this video I just hi double strike over and over and win. Unfortunately I don't have a lvl 50 Shadow or I could test this with gear, but the principle is the same.

 

Cool story. I look forward to seeing the vid with the 400k+ double strike damage at level 50 vs a competent team.

 

Pre-50 WZs have really weird and sometimes overly exaggerated scaling issues. I brought a level 10 tank specced (at that level is just means running the tank stance, heh) Guardian to a WZ once. Since I had given her a bunch of blues to wear, the game scaled her damage resistance to over 70% lol. She couldn't actually do anything since she had few abilities at that level, but holy cow was she hard to kill hehe. The point is, you can't extrapolate pre-50 WZ numbers and assume that's how it'll be at 50.

[heikaze]

Dark Charge accounts for a significant amount of healing. I'm not sure you can do 300K damage 100K healing though. I've done 100K healing but usually I do way more than 300K damage in this case. You'd have to be fighting a team of heavy armor classification guys the whole time to have your damage that low while healing yourself.

 

Seriously, you should just read 1 or 2 pages back and notice we already had this discussion. If you're too lazy, I'll provide it again. The Shadow on row two. 370k damage, 70k+ protection, 100+ healing.

 

http://i.imgur.com/PfrWV.jpg.

[Astarica]

Cool story. I look forward to seeing the vid with the 400k+ double strike damage at level 50 vs a competent team.

 

Pre-50 WZs have really weird and sometimes overly exaggerated scaling issues. I brought a level 10 tank specced (at that level is just means running the tank stance, heh) Guardian to a WZ once. Since I had given her a bunch of blues to wear, the game scaled her damage resistance to over 70% lol. She couldn't actually do anything since she had few abilities at that level, but holy cow was she hard to kill hehe. The point is, you can't extrapolate pre-50 WZ numbers and assume that's how it'll be at 50.

 

That's because the mouseover shows your mitigation against someone of the same level. Against a level 10, you'd have 70% damage mitigation, except most of your opponents most likely are NOT level 10.

 

Due to Bolster if you're wearing a full set of blue at level 10 that's pretty close to wearing a full set of blues at level 49 so you'd still be pretty hard to kill as a tank.

 

There's nothing hard about getting that kind of numbers if you have a 0-0 stalemate (though I'd argue both teams aren't as good as they think if they ended in 0-0). Thrash is well above 50% DPF compared to staple Darkness moves and half of 700K is 350K. As long as you find a melee (I assume Thrash only implies no Force Speed either, so you don't want to mess with any ranged/healer since they can throw you) you're fine. If you're allowed to use Force Speed, just find a Sage and let the good times roll.

[Neamhan]

Lol, so you expect a rated warzone, or pre-made vs pre-made not include any healer at all? Is that your definition on game balance? No heals involved? Not saying Marauders are not a good class, but they definitely does not bring the support and utility that a tank spec Shadow/Assassin brings, while maintaining the damage.

 

Those screenshot people keep posting aren't pre-made vs pre-made, though. They're pre-made vs randoms. A couple of those pugs did pretty well, but a good pre-made should be able to deal with healers better than a pug will.

 

Even so, I wouldn't be surprised to see the trauma debuff end up being increased (which would be a nerf to Shadows, btw) once people realize that in the objective based WZ we have right now your best bet is to stack half your team with healers. I won't have an opinion on the matter myself until I actually see how the rateds shake out, but I'm saying it wouldn't surprise me if that ends up happening. Personally, I still think the problem with stacking heals in the WZs is because they made the objectives too close together in Void and Alderaan so it's too easy to shift your defenders back and forth to them, but that ship has sailed long ago.

[Astarica]

Seriously, you should just read 1 or 2 pages back and notice we already had this discussion. If you're too lazy, I'll provide it again. The Shadow on row two. 370k damage, 70k+ protection, 100+ healing.

 

http://i.imgur.com/PfrWV.jpg.

 

I never said it was impossilbe, you just need a lot of hard to damage targets because otherwise you'd end up doing too much damage while getting those heals.

 

Force Lightning at 3 stacks heals yourself for around 2K and it'll usually do at least 4K damage. Dark Charge heals yourself for 450 and in theory uses up 3 GCDs due to proc limit. If you assume FL is expected to do 1 healing per 2 damage, even if you assume FL accounts for 2/3 of your total healing, then for the total ratio to work out a 3:1 you cannot be doing better than 5:1 on Dark Charge heals, which means you have to be doing no more than 2250 damage per 3 GCDs. Yes you can in theory just not attack some of the time (Dark Charge heal is time-limited not GCD limited) but that'd be pretty absurd. That at least puts light armor out of reach as your primary opponent (you'll definitely do more than 2250 damage in 3 GCDs).