Mara/Pally Bubble needs to be looked at(Undying Rage)

[shirayuki]

Sorry, I have better taste than to play THAT game. Give me a break. Force camo is better than shroud + vanish combined...

 

And most of the time you don't die afterward. Seriously. You just go invincivisible. Comparing force shroud + vanish to UR and force camo is like comparing a tricycle to a crotchrocket.

 

why you bringing force camo up? were talking how to counter UR not who has better stealth or compairing two abilities vs another two abilities

[Marisblood]

Let's compare deception sin to marauder for a second in this example

 

3 second force shroud = 100% tech/force

5 second UD = 99% all, 50% life cost

 

which one is better at keeping you alive against multiple targets?

 

force camo: speed buff, damage immunity, immune to aoe

force cloak: speed decrease, no damage immunity, no purging dots, not immune to aoe

 

obviously marauder is taking the cake.

 

if I use saber ward, and force speed, i can ALMOST bail as well as a marauder, but still, not quite. And I have to talent it, and use double the abilities. Just saying.

 

By far mara/sent are OP in all senses. Regarding sin/shadow we can survive them if Force Cloak reset imediatly Resilience (and Resilience must be a 6 seconds imunity -or impairing remover efect, bleeds, dots, etc). As GbtF this will make us OP or almost there.

I wish such a talent so we can compete them proper.

I am rank 81 infiltration and stoped to PVP after this stupid 1.2 patch.

[Krytycal]

It mitigates less damage, and only when its on a tank class. Marauder is a dps class. Why does he have better mitigation than tanks? Nobody would complain if juggs had this ability.

 

I have a BM sin and a BM marauder. I know very well what each can do. Yes, Undying Rage mitigates more damage in theory, but lets not forget it costs 50% of your health to use. So its only effective when you use it at low health. Which makes it risky to use. If your CC breaker is down and you get stunned at 30% health there's a very good chance you will die before you can use it, in which case it will mitigate 0 damage, and trust me good players will always try to stun you when you get low on health. Force Shroud, on the other hand, can be used proactively to mitigate 100% of force/tech attacks which are the bulk damage of most classes. It makes you immune to 99% of the CCs in the game, which means you can pop it to avoid impending knockbacks or stuns while you're running through the firepit (Undying Rage still leaves your vulnerable to CC).

 

Force Shroud also wipes any DoTs/roots/snares, which is awesome. I hate going against assassins on my lethality sniper, pyro PT and annihilation marauder because they can easily wipe all my dots/snares after I've applied them, meaning you used 2-3 GCDs for nothing.

 

Also, sin tanks in DPS gear can do comparable damage to marauders in PvP.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Krytycal

[Arkerus]

We lose half our health. Christ, thats a huge penalty for 6 seconds of "I'll die 6 seconds later". Edited April 5, 2012 by Arkerus

[Xerain]

Let's compare deception sin to marauder for a second in this example

 

3 second force shroud = 100% tech/force

5 second UD = 99% all, 50% life cost

 

which one is better at keeping you alive against multiple targets?

 

force camo: speed buff, damage immunity, immune to aoe

force cloak: speed decrease, no damage immunity, no purging dots, not immune to aoe

 

obviously marauder is taking the cake.

 

if I use saber ward, and force speed, i can ALMOST bail as well as a marauder, but still, not quite. And I have to talent it, and use double the abilities. Just saying.

 

good thing a lot of the attacks are tech/force.

who has stealth and can choose when they want to attack or not attack? Assassins. I'm sorry but Stealth is hands down one of the best pvp abilities ever created and it has such amazing uses period. You get to pick and choose your fights, you get to go behind the enemies and harass a healer when YOU choose. I'm sorry but a well placed opener and harassment on a healer can devastate a team. Marauders don't get that strategic advantage.

 

you can't sit here and compare one class to another because they have different uses and this whole qq thread is straight up dumb. Marauders are up in the thick of the battle fighters where as a stealth class is in fact not.

 

We can sit here and argue 1v1's all day but sad to say the game isn't based around 1v1 and it's around team play and using your allies to help you get the advantage.

[Astarica]

Force Shroud and Undying Rage are totally different kinds of ability. Force Shroud is a press-your-advantage move. You use it relatively early in the fight. In fact it's perfectly fine to use it as soon as you take damage, since it's most likely the enemy burst on you early in the fight (the later he waits the more likely he'll just die before doing his burst). It turns a fight you're ahead into a runaway advantage with the 5 seconds of virtual immunity and you can win a lot of matchups this way easily.

 

Undying Rage is an ability you use when you're behind. It'd literally make no sense to use this while you're ahead since the health cost will immediately wipe out whatever advantage you had. You're relying on this fight to turn things around because if it doesn't, you're probably dead. Even if you've a healer you're not going to just purposely let someone dip to 20% or lower just because he has UR up.

 

With UR you can win a fight that you'd have lost otherwise, but with Force Shroud there are many matchups where FS can remove all doubt to the outcome immediately. Against Op/Sorc and usually Merc, it is literally a 'GG' the moment you use it as your enemy has no possible way to get out of the hole.

 

Even if the two abilities had the same CD time, I'm not sure trading FS for UR is a good idea. Since FS can be used twice as often as UR, it's really not that close. People apparaently value last minute heroics more than an ability that will put the fight away so that no last minute heroics are ever needed.

[Xerain]

By far mara/sent are OP in all senses. Regarding sin/shadow we can survive them if Force Cloak reset imediatly Resilience (and Resilience must be a 6 seconds imunity -or impairing remover efect, bleeds, dots, etc). As GbtF this will make us OP or almost there.

I wish such a talent so we can compete them proper.

I am rank 81 infiltration and stoped to PVP after this stupid 1.2 patch.

 

maybe you should try a 31/0/10 spec or 27/0/14 spec?

 

It's true though, the other two trees for sin/shadow need brought up a little bit, given a defensive CD or something of the sorc.

 

Oh also i have a 50 sin too, thing is pretty amazing all around. I feel like a bad bad man for having a 50 assassin and a 50 marauder because lets face it both are pretty amazing when played to full potential. OP'ed naw, classes in this game currently are pretty balanced as it is and i see no point in crying about anyone.

[MMOgamer]

Sorry to say but this is a l2p issue. On my server, when I get down to 20% I am usually CC'd and killed, never giving me a chance to use Undying Rage. Learn to adapt.

[Astarica]

Using stun to prevent the Undying Rage doesn't really work because only one class (Darkness Assassin) can reliably come out ahead in a 1on1 against Marauder without needing to use their stun. Usually if you had stun up to prevent the UR it'd mean the Marauder would be winning so comfortably that he wouldn't need to use UR in the first place. Obviously if you've a numbers advantage this works but in such odds the guy fighting 1onX will usually use CC breaker too. UR might not be the best CD in the game, but it's definitely in the top 3. I'd say the top 3 defensive CDs are Force Shroud, 100% Force Camo (which would soon cease to exist in 1.2), and Undying Rage, and 100% Force Camo is considerably stronger than Undying Rage in most practical cases since Force Camo does not require you to be losing badly to have an effect.

[Temeluchus]

I agree with this post completely. This really should be a juggernaut or tanking ability. Giving Marauders, a very high damage class which is capable of force jumping, and already has Saber Ward another ability to become completely immune to damage is really going a bit far. I would think a 99% healing reduction WITH a 50% damage reduction would be a solid penalty to place on an ability like this. I have watched our marauders obliterate people with this skill while our healer just pops them back up to full health easily and they keep killing. Its just a bad mechanic that needs a higher penalty for using it, particularly given they can pop saberward right afterward and stay alive while they get healed.

 

Let me know what server you play on where apparently Saber Ward=complete immunity to damage,that would make my Mara godmode. My server and all the rest seem to be stuck with this version:

 

Saber Ward

Instant

Cooldown: 180s

Raises a lightsaber ward, increasing melee and ranged defenses by 50% and reducing the damage taken from Force and tech attacks by 25%. Lasts 12 seconds.

[Zyillo]

So basically, this whole thread is about how Sentinels and Marauders present a problem for players in PvP and that nothing can be done to stop them. And with teamwork Sentinels and Marauders are unstoppable.

 

Funny, there's a thread about the Guard mechanic that sounds a lot like this. You know, healers and tanks being unstoppable.

 

So let me get this straight. Healers, tanks, and DPS are all completely unstoppable. And we can do nothing about them.

 

But getting back on focus, apparently you can't CC a Sentinel with low health.

 

I see all these complaints about CC, so many threads crying about stuns and snares and roots. Certainly people must have tried using these tools against Sentinels and Marauders, you know - applying them with purpose instead of just throwing CC out at random.

 

One thing that irritates me most, is that people don't actually bother learning what tools their classes have to fight against other classes abilities. You have CC, use it appropriately. Against a watchman? Cleanse the DoT stack. Problem solved. Against a Focus Bomber? Don't cluster up, and CC them when you see their singularity stack.

 

We talk about how imbalanced Guarded By The Force is, and then we go off about how healing makes it imbalanced in a group setting. Suddenly we can't interupt healers.

 

More and more it sounds like a situational awareness problem.

 

But hey, I don't suck at this game. So what do I know?

[SoBlue]

So basically, this whole thread is about how Sentinels and Marauders present a problem for players in PvP and that nothing can be done to stop them. And with teamwork Sentinels and Marauders are unstoppable.

 

Funny, there's a thread about the Guard mechanic that sounds a lot like this. You know, healers and tanks being unstoppable.

 

So let me get this straight. Healers, tanks, and DPS are all completely unstoppable. And we can do nothing about them.

 

But getting back on focus, apparently you can't CC a Sentinel with low health.

 

I see all these complaints about CC, so many threads crying about stuns and snares and roots. Certainly people must have tried using these tools against Sentinels and Marauders, you know - applying them with purpose instead of just throwing CC out at random.

 

One thing that irritates me most, is that people don't actually bother learning what tools their classes have to fight against other classes abilities. You have CC, use it appropriately. Against a watchman? Cleanse the DoT stack. Problem solved. Against a Focus Bomber? Don't cluster up, and CC them when you see their singularity stack.

 

We talk about how imbalanced Guarded By The Force is, and then we go off about how healing makes it imbalanced in a group setting. Suddenly we can't interupt healers.

 

More and more it sounds like a situational awareness problem.

 

But hey, I don't suck at this game. So what do I know?

Thank you

 

 

/thread.

[Dacer]

Ppl complain about everything and anything because others are playing their class to its potential with an organized team.

 

But since we are complaining.

 

I don't want tank assassin to be able to wear dps gear.... because they can pretty much destory me 1v1 with that 3 second 100% ability they have along with cloaking and reopening.

 

I don't want an operative to be able to decloak, knockdown, and take me to 35%-40% health in 3-4 seconds.

 

I don't think that troopers should have that massive knockback... its annoying or that interrupt immue bubble they get thats really annoying.

 

I don't think Soc should get that force bubble... SO OP they can heal when thats up did you know that!!!???!?!?

 

OH and i don't think dps assassin and jugs should be able to use gaurd or taunts WAY OVER POWERED!

 

And lets face it... force pull and grapple are WAY over powered too.

 

Thats all the OVERPOWERED abilities i can think of right now.....

[Omophorus]

I'm just curious what all the people QQing about OP UR/GbtF would put forth as a reasonable solution to keep Marauder/Sentinel relevant in a game of ranged damage and CC spam without the defensive cooldowns.

 

It's not like Mar/Sent can respec to anything but DPS, and all 3 specs for both mirrors are entirely dependent on maintaining 4m range the vast majority of the time. Being in melee range in anything but a 1v1 situation basically begs for focus fire because of being a target of opportunity (you're right there, and you can't get away before you die).

 

It's not like Mar/Sent have any reliable ability to control the fight around them with anything other than a soft CC which is far too frequently broken, even by organized premades. No stuns, no knockbacks. With the right spec, other melees can be rooted, but ranged DPS classes are a much greater threat and are barely impacted (esp. with 30+ meter range and a 10m limitation on a Mar/Sent's ability to root).

 

It's not like, even beyond that, Mar/Sent has any noteworthy ability to leave combat on its own terms. Movement speed Zen/Fury buff + Cloak is about as close as it comes, but is predicated on having 30 stacks sitting around unused (and if you're looking to ****, they usually aren't). The mirrors are also absurdly susceptible to CC, and can't even start disengaging from range, to give them a head start escaping.

 

I won't pretend to deny that UR/GbtF are extremely powerful CDs in the right situations, but I'd posit that they need to be to prevent Mar/Sent from being completely useless. It's simply too easy to apply DPS to Mar/Sent, and too hard for them to do anything about it without UR/GbtF/100% DR cloak. 100% DR cloak is rightfully being nerfed (much, MUCH more OP than UR/GbtF), but without UR/GbtF it would be far too difficult for a Mar/Sent to apply enough DPS to be useful to a team before being smashed by an organized opposing team.

 

Edit: I don't consider a 99% healing penalty or a large DPS penalty reasonable. If there isn't at least a threat that UR/GbtF is more than just delaying death by 5 seconds, it actually becomes significantly weaker.

 

DPS penalty doesn't work because a big piece of Mar/Sent's value (which doesn't show up in a talent tree or in a damage meter) is the threat of leaving its DPS unchecked. The only thing that makes a Mar/Sent dangerous is the amount of damage he can do. A Mar/Sent not able to do damage isn't dangerous, and if the other team doesn't have to be aware of and deal with the threat of that DPS, a Mar/Sent is drastically less useful (because they don't even figure meaningfully into an enemy's tactics).

 

A 99% healing penalty doesn't work for the same reason - there has to at least be the threat that they'll survive and continue to DPS. If healing was nerfed, the threat value of Mar/Sent is similarly reduced because they're not going to do enough of anything in 2 GCDs to swing the tide of battle more than once in a blue moon. Once that 5 seconds of near-invincibility ends, any ranged attack would yield a dead DPS (since it's virtually a guarantee the Mar/Sent will be in range of someone).

 

A Mar/Sent NEEDS to continue to be a threat and factor into an enemies tactics at all times. Without horribly imbalancing ultimate DPS capability in Mar/Sent's favor (any more than it may or may not already be... there just isn't enough data from PTS to say anything for sure), the classes don't really bring anything of unique value to the table other than the threat they represent. A big part of that threat is their survivability.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Omophorus

[genericcc]

gz you and your pocket healer do well against pugs. Escape abilities are working as intended. The 3 abilities you mention are on fairly long cd (1min45, 45, 2min for sage pull), what happens when they're on cd? Why don't the people you're fighting use their defensive cds (including cc)? You claim to be super outnumbered yet not cced so you can use your defensive ccs and still able to kill people on the other team? If they were putting out comparable damage to you surely you would be there for maybe 5 seconds and then almost dead, in which case your escape abilities don't really help super much. I contend that you're simply fighting pugs who are not assisting and making full use of defensive and cc cooldowns. I find it weird that no one is attacking your healer friend also.

 

Ofc I am biased. I really don't want marauders nerfed to the point that you need a healer and guard just to q for warzone because you will get blown up by random pug rdps otherwise. ESPECIALLY because unlike in other games it's not like I can be like, ok no one is on in my guild and the enemy team line-up is too good atm (I will be totally unviable in wz) so I can go do pvp in illum etc.. because illum is woeful and the only pvp in this game is wz.

 

I'm not sure how the rated wz will work in terms of objectives but I would probably just take a 3 tank 1 healer team and not even bring a marauder.

Edited April 6, 2012 by genericcc

[pauliej]

g-unit

[BiggDirty]

Yes clearly marauders would be completely useless if you added a healing debuff to this ONE ability which apparently is easily counterable anyway according to the army of scrubs.

 

It's not like they bring anything else to the table, like millions of interrupts, the only healing debuff in the game, an 80% movement speed buff that can be popped multiple times per game, and a 15% damage increase for your entire dps train.

 

All of that stuff is totally useless.

 

I've been part of countless gaming communities throughout my life, but this one is by far the most ignorant.

 

1 out of 100 people on this forum is able to think logically about balance, the rest just form snap opinions that make no sense, based on their experience playing with randoms.

 

This ability WILL get nerfed, and I'll be back to say I told you so when it happens.

[Chemic_al]

I'm just curious what all the people QQing about OP UR/GbtF would put forth as a reasonable solution to keep Marauder/Sentinel relevant in a game of ranged damage and CC spam without the defensive cooldowns.

 

It's not like Mar/Sent can respec to anything but DPS, and all 3 specs for both mirrors are entirely dependent on maintaining 4m range the vast majority of the time. Being in melee range in anything but a 1v1 situation basically begs for focus fire because of being a target of opportunity (you're right there, and you can't get away before you die).

 

I would cry a river here, but you know, maras/sents have gap closers.

 

It's not like Mar/Sent have any reliable ability to control the fight around them with anything other than a soft CC which is far too frequently broken, even by organized premades. No stuns, no knockbacks. With the right spec, other melees can be rooted, but ranged DPS classes are a much greater threat and are barely impacted (esp. with 30+ meter range and a 10m limitation on a Mar/Sent's ability to root).

 

Really? See above.

 

It's not like, even beyond that, Mar/Sent has any noteworthy ability to leave combat on its own terms. Movement speed Zen/Fury buff + Cloak is about as close as it comes, but is predicated on having 30 stacks sitting around unused (and if you're looking to ****, they usually aren't). The mirrors are also absurdly susceptible to CC, and can't even start disengaging from range, to give them a head start escaping.

 

Leave combat on it's own terms, you mean run when you're being pounded into the ground. You like setting up these what at first seem plausible statements and then explain that you do actually have that ability.

 

I won't pretend to deny that UR/GbtF are extremely powerful CDs in the right situations, but I'd posit that they need to be to prevent Mar/Sent from being completely useless.

 

Please, maras and sents are far from useless.

 

It's simply too easy to apply DPS to Mar/Sent, and too hard for them to do anything about it without UR/GbtF/100% DR cloak. 100% DR cloak is rightfully being nerfed (much, MUCH more OP than UR/GbtF), but without UR/GbtF it would be far too difficult for a Mar/Sent to apply enough DPS to be useful to a team before being smashed by an organized opposing team.

 

You can apply DPS to any class, why should maras and sents be any different?

 

Edit: I don't consider a 99% healing penalty or a large DPS penalty reasonable. If there isn't at least a threat that UR/GbtF is more than just delaying death by 5 seconds, it actually becomes significantly weaker.

 

a 99% healing debuff is EXACTLY what it need. "Delaying death for 5 seconds" is more than other classes get. Allowing healing while immune to damage means this ability goes from defensive to top tier offensive capacity.

 

For instance the OP has a pocket healer, you know you can heal maras and sents too before they get to the stage. And when they do, it's basically 5 seconds to keep alive when every other class would be in the respawn area. And here's the kicker, when the ability has ended - you can heal them again too.

 

 

A 99% healing penalty doesn't work for the same reason - there has to at least be the threat that they'll survive and continue to DPS. If healing was nerfed, the threat value of Mar/Sent is similarly reduced because they're not going to do enough of anything in 2 GCDs to swing the tide of battle more than once in a blue moon. Once that 5 seconds of near-invincibility ends, any ranged attack would yield a dead DPS (since it's virtually a guarantee the Mar/Sent will be in range of someone).

 

Say what now?Continue to be a threat. When UR/GBtF ends they will still be alive and can keep on being healed and they are still putting out high dps.

 

A Mar/Sent NEEDS to continue to be a threat and factor into an enemies tactics at all times. Without horribly imbalancing ultimate DPS capability in Mar/Sent's favor (any more than it may or may not already be... there just isn't enough data from PTS to say anything for sure), the classes don't really bring anything of unique value to the table other than the threat they represent. A big part of that threat is their survivability.

 

Even with the healing buff that's 5 seconds of immunity and plenty of survivability. Please stop making it out that maras and sents aren't flattening people when this ability is up. They don't take long to bring someone down.

 

And please assassins and shadows even have to take skill points to be healed when using force cloak.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Chemic_al

[BiggDirty]

I have a question - why the hell are you trying to kill marauder that has a pocket healer?

 

I'm not. Any other questions?

 

What if marauders were 100% invincible every time a healer is within 30 meters? Your ridiculous argument would be the same.

 

WHY WOULD YOU TRY TO KILL HIM IF HES INVINCIBLE, JUST KILL THE HEALER DUUUUUH

 

The point is, no other dps class in this game FORCES you to kill the healer, you can just as easily focus fire the dps and it will be very difficult for the healer to do anything.

[Kaarsa]

I'm not. Any other questions?

 

What if marauders were 100% invincible every time a healer is within 30 meters? Your ridiculous argument would be the same.

 

WHY WOULD YOU TRY TO KILL HIM IF HES INVINCIBLE, JUST KILL THE HEALER DUUUUUH

 

The point is, no other dps class in this game FORCES you to kill the healer, you can just as easily focus fire the dps and it will be very difficult for the healer to do anything.

 

If you have enough dps to kill every other class with a pocket healer without issues, you will kill marauder very fast even if he use UD. Hell, you will probably kill him during 1 stun. If you are unable to kill him during 1 stun, killing his healer would be way more effective approach, especially that marauder has almost zero options to save his healer.

[GrandMike]

It needs to go just like any skill of that kind.

 

BWs "balancing" is laughable and it doesnt really bode well for PvP, theres absolutely NO reaction to actual problems and balance in PvP.

 

Its now fully PvE game with PvP as side attraction for PvEers, because they dropped the ball on PvP they are abandoning any balancing and concerns regarding PvP.

 

Good thing better games are on horizon so we dont have to explain PvP 101 to BW and just move to good PvP games

Edited April 6, 2012 by GrandMike

[BiggDirty]

*edit*

 

double post

Edited April 6, 2012 by BiggDirty

[Skorched]

From a warzone perspective as playing a marauder and powertech undying rage is used at a "oh crap im going to die i need to run" moment. Marauders have really no control over the dynamic of a match compared to other classes especially on huttball. We cant Knockback, or grip but we can go immune for 5 seconds at a cost of 50% health. This ability is only amazing in a 1 on 1 situation but can be overcome easily by stuns, blinds and just waiting for it to go away.

[BiggDirty]

From a warzone perspective as playing a marauder and powertech undying rage is used at a "oh crap im going to die i need to run" moment. Marauders have really no control over the dynamic of a match compared to other classes especially on huttball. We cant Knockback, or grip but we can go immune for 5 seconds at a cost of 50% health. This ability is only amazing in a 1 on 1 situation but can be overcome easily by stuns, blinds and just waiting for it to go away.

 

Hey welcome to the thread, how about reading it before replying?

 

Nobody cares about 1v1, as has been mentioned a million times, you can just CC when it's used.

 

The issue is that they can be healed while they are immune.

[Serpenttt]

CC them when they pop it? There is certainly no lack of it in this game..