Mara/Pally Bubble needs to be looked at(Undying Rage)

[Victheslic]

The argument that UR/GbtF can be removed because Sent/Mara has other utilities is like arguing that we should remove sorc bubble because they have force speed, heals, aoe knockback (with talented root), a mez (instant talented which can also stun on break from damage) or that BHs don't need an aoe knock back because they have a shield, a ranged stun, and a mez.

 

Hey welcome to the thread, how about reading it before replying?

 

Nobody cares about 1v1, as has been mentioned a million times, you can just CC when it's used.

 

The issue is that they can be healed while they are immune.

 

Then cc/interrupt/stun/knockback the healer?

 

Next thread that should be created should be melee complaining that ranged classes don't take damage when they are out of melee range, they are practically invulnerable for much longer than a 5 second cd that consumes half their hp! AND THEY CAN BE HEALED WHILE KITING? OP needs a nerf!!! /s

[Cempa]

The defensive abilities need to have a damage cap.

 

The 20% damage reduction needs to end after X amount of damage.

 

The 99% damage reduction needs to reduce all damage made by XX%.

[Victheslic]

The defensive abilities need to have a damage cap.

 

The 20% damage reduction needs to end after X amount of damage.

 

The 99% damage reduction needs to reduce all damage made by XX%.

 

No.

 

While we are at it maybe we should suggest adding 1 min cd to sorc bubble. I mean it reduces all damage taken by 100% with an x damage cap, and can be cast on anyone!

 

May as well also suggest reducing damage done while bubbled by 10%.

 

What UR/GbtF really needs is nothing.

[Chemic_al]

The argument that UR/GbtF can be removed because Sent/Mara has other utilities is like arguing that we should remove sorc bubble because they have force speed, heals, aoe knockback (with talented root), a mez (instant talented which can also stun on break from damage) or that BHs don't need an aoe knock back because they have a shield, a ranged stun, and a mez.

 

 

I don't want in removed, but I am totally in favour of them being unable to be healed whilst it is active.

[Victheslic]

I don't want in removed, but I am totally in favour of them being unable to be healed whilst it is active.

 

Ok then substitute "removed" for "cannot be healed" into my example. I'm sure the next argument is "but UR/GbtF is suppose to just keep them alive another 5 seconds and it can do this with healing reduction!" well bubble isn't the same? Do we really think that the ability was only created to make a mara/sent last 5 more seconds and that it was never imagined that they might *gasp* get healed? Bubble can be categorized almost the exact same way.

[texoc]

 

Even with the healing buff that's 5 seconds of immunity and plenty of survivability. Please stop making it out that maras and sents aren't flattening people when this ability is up. They don't take long to bring someone down.

 

And please assassins and shadows even have to take skill points to be healed when using force cloak.

 

 

 

No mara will take someone down from 100 to 0 in 2 globals, not even with all trinkets up !!!

Mara can still be rooted, stunned, snared, knocked, blinded!!

 

If your are playing in a premade Maras are no problem. You just stun him when he is around 30%-40% and focus him down.

 

Jeez you can even stun him at 100% and focus him down.

 

 

 

Undying Rage is quite weak actually compared to Force Shroud.

Now imagine Force Shroud on a Mara, fully buffed with all trinkets up and popping this... this guy is going to wreck through a guarded healer, and you cant do anything about it.

 

But UR?? ...lols...

 

Fake Spike the Mara/sent and he will panic and pop his def cds, snare him leave him.

Focus the healer down, return again to Mara/Sent, stun him and kill him.

 

GG!

[FourTwent]

Hey man, do you do freelance work? The Presidential campaign is coming up and I'm sure either candidate would love to have someone with such an incredible ability to ignore logical arguments and state their opinions as facts working for them. You could probably make a bunch of cash, and prove that Obama has either destroyed the economy, or saved it!

 

this guy just called the OP out XD

 

i do give props to the OP though, that's a pretty smart way to trick the lazy readers into thinking the majority of the responses back up his opinion

[KalTorrak]

As soon as I witnessed how this ability was used, I called it "divine shield of WoW" and old thread pops right away at Google when searched like that. Hilarious.

 

I used to play a paladin in WoW and God, only if divine shield was anywhere as good as this. It cut down offense by half, was dispellable and could be used every FIVE minutes compared to 90 secs here! Every single fight, maras pop this and just kill people with 50hp. It's utterly ridiculous.

 

This game needs some serious balancing in PvP with tanking abilities on melee DPS. Imagine a fury warrior with 90 sec cd, non-dispellable, full offensive capability divine shield. Yeah. SWTOR has that.

 

Tell me about it, then they go and Nerf Operatives the least powerful and played of the lot, where the hell do they get their idea's? Do they just roll the dice and go yeah we'll nerf this guy, I still think it comes down to Operatives (a very selected few) being good at their class and rolling their anti class (sorc / sages) and since well everyone knows their the most popular class, they had the most whingers to fall on Biowares ears, their mistake was listening.

[Lina_Inverse]

In practical use this skill is more like an active cheat death than any pally bubble.

 

Anywho, the skill is pretty broken.

 

Marauders/sents are already the last focus target in premade vs premade. They take the longest to focus down of any class without major healing easily(this is where tanks step in). If you deny that you don't have brains, eyes, or you are so far in denial that your closest friends and relatives would have an easier time breaking you out of sex or alcohol addiction.

 

The question I guess is "Is this really a problem in warzones as they are designed?"

 

 

My personal vote is that it is because survival, especially just to interrupt caps until your next resser can stream in, is so pivotal that it doesn't even matter that the class does great dps and has unique utility on the side.

 

 

The problem with this defensive cd is that it doesn't matter if his healer is dead or not, there is literally nothing you can do to put him on the ground for 4 seconds with the size of the warzones.

 

However, without ANY cds (and the marauder/sent can rotate through quite a few for quite a while unless he's solo q'ing without aware healers), marauders drop just as fast as an operative or dps assassin.

 

You have to be delicate with these balance changes for that very reason. Taking it away would leave a gap that might be too difficult to fill.

 

(For the record, I have both a dps assassin and marauder at max and I've spent quite a bit of time on both, though decidedly less time on the marauder obviously, especially since I recently resubbed after a month off.)

Edited April 6, 2012 by Lina_Inverse

[JediDuckling]

There is a reason why blizzard nerfed the paladin bubble. Same reason Mara bubble needs to be fixed. You should not be able to do full dmg while being immune to pretty well everything. Make it so when a Mara uses this bubble its defensively and not offensively. Cut all damage and healing while bubble is up by 50%. I think its ok that you should be able to survive while its up but being able to kill multiple ppl while its up is just wrong and shouldnt be happening.

 

 

 

 

EDIT ****Good Constructive Feedback So Far*****

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

EDIT****Conclusion****

 

After 60+ pages and 17000+ views it has been concluded that a damage reduction perhaps isn't needed. The hp loss penalty as is isn't a penalty. Making it so a 99% healing reduction was added to this ability would fix the penalty so it would be working as intended. There hasn't been one mara/sent that has been able to debate this properly without using l2p scenarios. I urge the pvp team to consider this. For organized pvp this is one small step to an overall balance. Sure there are other issues that need to be attended to but clearly this has gotten the attention its deserved to be looked into. Hopefully BW & the pvp team can resolve this with what "they" think is a solution to this overpowered ability. No complete damage reductions were ever good for any ranked competitive pvp. If this isn't addressed you will most likely see a huge reroll of this class with threads to come after ranked warzones start. I trust the pvp team will be able to work it out.

 

 

sentinel/maurauders get 3 god mode buffs and shadow/sins get a 3 to 5 second god mode also.

[Lina_Inverse]

sentinel/maurauders get 3 god mode buffs and shadow/sins get a 3 to 5 second god mode also.

 

Force shroud is good and it CAN save your life in certain situations, but it's not the same as undying rage and won't guarantee a save from being trained by a group. You can easily be killed through it if you try to use it in this way by every class except the sorc/sage. There are several forms of CC that still work through it. The annihilation specced marauder (currently, removed in 1.2) have a possible 10 seconds of chained immunity(and the stealth can be straight countered by one of the 4 classes), but not 3 god mode buffs (saber ward is probably one of the best cds in the game on its own though, but it has viable weaknesses and counters, and it's not complete immunity).

 

Undying rage's counter is to wait it out or try to kill them before they can press the button. The only weakness this skill really has is that it may not be able to get used before the character dies if he manages not to have the forsight to use it before he'd get into a situation where he couldn't before he dies(You still following? Good). Is that really ok? Does any other ability behave like this? The only thing worse would be the literal implementation of the original cheat death, and in a way this ability is better because player control will always be superior to passive ability in the hands of a skilled player.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Lina_Inverse

[woahdude]

LOL the OG post dude pretended to read 60+ pages and ignored half of the responses.he is just one of the dudes that get rocked by marauders and then crys wolf but doesnt use his brain to try and solve his problem.

 

your support quotes are horrid - for example "I find it odd that a Dps class can out live a tank class." ones of the dumbest things i have ever read... a tank jugg can outlast a marauder ... have you played this game before?

 

 

the undying rage last for 5 seconds.. and takes 50% of current hp..

 

if he used his brain he could have figured out how to cc them while rage is popped and / or kite for 5 seconds and toss an ability after the ability is gone.. how hard was that?

 

 

OP have you even played a marauder or do you just see an ability get casted go look up what it does and then start to qq

 

 

you want to take marauders toys away because you havent been able to use your brain for thinking - please learn to use your brain it is what us humans use to solve problems especially trivial ones such as undying rage in swtor

 

OP - one more thing .. take your fake lightsaber off your wall and slap yourself in the face with it

Edited April 6, 2012 by woahdude

[Serrowherrow]

You know, I actually might not mind losing/nerfing undying rage if we got a 4-second stun.

 

A shield that we could instant-cast that absorbed damage would be nice too.

 

While we're at it can we get a pull? And how about this really cool shroud that makes us immune to force and tech attacks?

 

 

Every class has its 'trump' card. The marauder's is 'ok' in a pug setting, and excellent in an organized setting. Learn to adapt instead of relying on nerfs to drag classes down to a level where you can beat them. I eat marauders for breakfast on my server on a god damn arsenal merc because most of them wouldn't know where their interrupt key is if it was the only one on their keyboard.

 

Every class has some 'OP' tool at its disposal. It's how you use it.

[Chemic_al]

Ok then substitute "removed" for "cannot be healed" into my example. I'm sure the next argument is "but UR/GbtF is suppose to just keep them alive another 5 seconds and it can do this with healing reduction!" well bubble isn't the same? Do we really think that the ability was only created to make a mara/sent last 5 more seconds and that it was never imagined that they might *gasp* get healed? Bubble can be categorized almost the exact same way.

 

Well in what category do you place an ability that makes you impervious to damage for 5 seconds, yet still allows you to be healed? Please do enlighten us to it's intended purpose...

 

but I guess you are happy to abuse another broken game mechanic.

 

Oh and others please stop with the straw man 50% health cost rubbish, no sent/mara is going to pop this until they are nearly dead. Health cost is neglible.

[Chemic_al]

 

While we're at it can we get a pull? And how about this really cool shroud that makes us immune to force and tech attacks?

 

 

Oh, but not damage funnily enough....

[Krytycal]

Force shroud is good and it CAN save your life in certain situations, but it's not the same as undying rage and won't guarantee a save from being trained by a group. You can easily be killed through it if you try to use it in this way by every class except the sorc/sage. There are several forms of CC that still work through it. The annihilation specced marauder (currently, removed in 1.2) have a possible 10 seconds of chained immunity(and the stealth can be straight countered by one of the 4 classes), but not 3 god mode buffs (saber ward is probably one of the best cds in the game on its own though, but it has viable weaknesses and counters, and it's not complete immunity).

 

Undying rage's counter is to wait it out or try to kill them before they can press the button. The only weakness this skill really has is that it may not be able to get used before the character dies if he manages not to have the forsight to use it before he'd get into a situation where he couldn't before he dies(You still following? Good). Is that really ok? Does any other ability behave like this? The only thing worse would be the literal implementation of the original cheat death, and in a way this ability is better because player control will always be superior to passive ability in the hands of a skilled player.

 

Not gonna lie, the only thing DPS sin offers over marauder is burst damage. There is no other reason to play a DPS sin over a marauder. However, I find my tank sin and my marauder to be a lot more balanced. Force Shroud is a million times more useful and versatile than Undying Rage. Yes, if you are being trained by a team of MM snipers chances are it won't save you, but a couple of stuns and Undying Rage isn't going to save a marauder either. Heck, most DPS classes have strong enough burst to drop someone from 30% to 0% before he has a chance to react. I kill marauders this way all the time.

 

Anyway, I would not trade Force Shroud for Undying Rage. Would you?

Edited April 6, 2012 by Krytycal

[xChroniCx]

Not gonna lie, the only thing DPS sin offers over marauder is burst damage. There is no other reason to play a DPS sin over a marauder. However, I find my tank sin and my marauder to be a lot more balanced. Force Shroud is a million times more useful and versatile than Undying Rage. Yes, if you are being trained by a team of MM snipers chances are it won't save you, but a couple of stuns and Undying Rage isn't going to save a marauder either. Heck, most DPS classes have strong enough burst to drop someone from 30% to 0% before he has a chance to react. I kill marauders this way all the time.

 

Anyway, I would not trade Force Shroud for Undying Rage. Would you?

 

O yea I forgot marauders can taunt and guard like sins can... So glad I'm rerolling an operative, maybe I won't hear anyone qq'ing about my class for a few months again.

[Victheslic]

Well in what category do you place an ability that makes you impervious to damage for 5 seconds, yet still allows you to be healed? Please do enlighten us to it's intended purpose...

 

but I guess you are happy to abuse another broken game mechanic.

 

 

I place it in the defensive ability with a long cd category.

 

 

Oh and others please stop with the straw man 50% health cost rubbish, no sent/mara is going to pop this until they are nearly dead. Health cost is neglible.

 

DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT A STRAW MAN ARGUMENT IS??? Because noting that it has a 50% health cost isn't even close to one.

 

The health cost has its place: to ensure it is used as a last second down to the wire cd, instead of at 75% or 50% health. I couldn't imagine the crying if it had no health cost attached to it at all.

 

One of the funniest parts of everyone complaining about UR/GbtF being overpowered is that talented force cloak(100% dmg reduction) is better in most situations (if you are getting healed, which seems to be everyone's gripe) and only has 45s cd. You didn't see the waves of QQ like you do in this thread, yet it is being nerfed. I think in this instance BW has a much better idea of *** is going on than the people complaining in this thread.

[Kiyoma]

I'm sure someone has said it, but Marauders aren't immune to CC during the duration of their damage reduction cooldown.

 

someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure they are not.

[Hoodwinked]

I'm sure someone has said it, but Marauders aren't immune to CC during the duration of their damage reduction cooldown.

 

someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure they are not.

 

They are not. A well placed knock back with a root effect or cc like force lift will totally negate this skill.

[Nyjin]

The OP's "Conclusion" is hilarious.

 

I've read a fair bit of the responses (About 6-7 pages), and there is a divide.

 

Some people think it's overpowered...

And others think those that think it's overpowered need to smarten up.

 

I'm of the latter.

 

But the OP's logical skills are amazing; he ignores all the disagreements and merely repeats his first statement that Undying Rage/Guarded needs to be "nerfed."

 

Kudos to you, good sir.

[Blloodbane]

They are not. A well placed knock back with a root effect or cc like force lift will totally negate this skill.

 

^^ this...

 

Oh and something others MIGHT want to consider... if you see a Mara/Sent pop his bubble...

 

 

RUN!!!!!

 

Undying Rage does NOT equal god mode...

[Cempa]

Averages do not matter that much in PvP. The fact that a class can mitigate 20% damage regardless of mechanics is pathetic.

The way this mitigation works right now is insane, it needs to be against either ranged/melee or internal/elemental but not ALL DAMAGE!

 

Marauder has too big a crutch in PvP due to the short CD's.

 

Force Camo 45sec

Enduring Pain 60 sec and with talents can go down with abilities.

 

----

 

Its amazing seeing yet another triple A title push customers back to WoW....

 

Blizzard has +10 million subs why give them more?

[Xerain]

Averages do not matter that much in PvP. The fact that a class can mitigate 20% damage regardless of mechanics is pathetic.

The way this mitigation works right now is insane, it needs to be against either ranged/melee or internal/elemental but not ALL DAMAGE!

 

Marauder has too big a crutch in PvP due to the short CD's.

 

Force Camo 45sec

Enduring Pain 60 sec and with talents can go down with abilities.

 

----

 

Its amazing seeing yet another triple A title push customers back to WoW....

 

Blizzard has +10 million subs why give them more?

 

endure pain is a jugg skill.

[Hatham]

It's annoying, especially on ball carriers in huttball, but overpowered? I'm not sure. Maybe bioware should focus on bringing everyone else up to the marauder/sentinel level because they seem like a really good class.