Same gender relationships clarifications?

[Jenovan]

Do you think I should remove that comment regarding the Legacy from the FAQ under question 4? Also, should I keep the Stephen Reid quotes?

 

Personally I'd leave the mention of the Legacy tree out, because there's no direct correlation between its presence and SGR story content in the game. (Especially since we can't put companions in the tree... yet!) It might be worth noting, but not in the context of that question, you know? Or perhaps rephrased slightly so that the gay marriage capability is another supporting factor, not a sign of content to come, if that makes sense.

 

 

I'd say it's easier to limit SG marriages in the Legacy tree via a gender check than it is to limit companion SG romances via multiple gender checks throughout the game. We all know they did the latter so I don't think it's necessarily unlimited b/c it's easier.

This is probably quite true in a technical sense. However, it's already been implied at the Guild Summit that they don't want to simply make the romances identical for both genders ("change all the dialogue to work for the other gender"). With that being the case, a gender check could be in place to differentiate the companion's reactions in multiple ways:

- a turn-down. Maybe this companion is exclusively straight.

- surprise -- the companion didn't think the player character was gay, or had never considered an SGR, or whatever.

- simply different dialog, even in a positive response

- etc.

 

The fact that they claim to be taking the time to make these relationships unique makes me hopeful that we will see these differentiations clearly when they come up.

[natashina]

Personally I'd leave the mention of the Legacy tree out, because there's no direct correlation between its presence and SGR story content in the game. (Especially since we can't put companions in the tree... yet!) It might be worth noting, but not in the context of that question, you know? Or perhaps rephrased slightly so that the gay marriage capability is another supporting factor, not a sign of content to come, if that makes sense.

 

Edit: It makes total sense! After thinking about it, I'm just going to cut out that part all together. While I still feel that is the case, it's just my opinion and not directly supported by anything official. Since I'm trying to pull a Joe Friday with the FAQ("Just the facts, ma'am",) I'll keep my personal and unsupported biases out of it as much as possible.

 

The Legacy tree and it's possible connection to SGR is good food for thought, and something to consider.

 

 

This is probably quite true in a technical sense. However, it's already been implied at the Guild Summit that they don't want to simply make the romances identical for both genders ("change all the dialogue to work for the other gender"). With that being the case, a gender check could be in place to differentiate the companion's reactions in multiple ways:

- a turn-down. Maybe this companion is exclusively straight.

- surprise -- the companion didn't think the player character was gay, or had never considered an SGR, or whatever.

- simply different dialog, even in a positive response

- etc.

 

The fact that they claim to be taking the time to make these relationships unique makes me hopeful that we will see these differentiations clearly when they come up.

 

Agreed.

Edited April 20, 2012 by natashina

[stuffystuffs]

This is probably quite true in a technical sense. However, it's already been implied at the Guild Summit that they don't want to simply make the romances identical for both genders ("change all the dialogue to work for the other gender"). With that being the case, a gender check could be in place to differentiate the companion's reactions in multiple ways:

- a turn-down. Maybe this companion is exclusively straight.

- surprise -- the companion didn't think the player character was gay, or had never considered an SGR, or whatever.

- simply different dialog, even in a positive response

- etc.

 

The fact that they claim to be taking the time to make these relationships unique makes me hopeful that we will see these differentiations clearly when they come up.

 

I'm not sure why they have to make them so different though...it seems they are doing it just for the sake of making it different.

 

But I must admit I haven't seen any of the current romance arcs so I don't know how gendered they are.

[Lurkz]

I'm not sure why they have to make them so different though...it seems they are doing it just for the sake of making it different.

 

But I must admit I haven't seen any of the current romance arcs so I don't know how gendered they are.

 

Some of them are -very- gendered, Doc/JK* springing to mind for me. So in that sense it makes sense to me that they want to differentiate it or modify it in order for the romance to flow better for SGRAs. Besides, I really like the idea that the romance is going to be different for each gender even if the companion in question is bi. it just seems more realistic that they may approach someone of opposite gender differently than they do someone of the same gender.

 

*This is a personal perception, I am not trying to say that Doc could not treat a male JK the way he treats a female one. It's just the way it's written right now it feels very much like it's aimed solely at being a statement on how he acts around women.

[vanyelsf]

So I'm going to probably going to get glares from alot of you for this, but I'm just so impatient and just want my happy ending...

 

I loved DA origins to bits, I think I've played it through like 17 times. I loved Zev, don't get me wrong, but the one I really always wanted was Allistair. When I saw the user mod to romance him I immediately installed it and it made my love of the game grow 500 times.

 

At this point, the BW silence in driving me crazy. I don't care about a fully fleshed out "story" to enhance some amazing romance. If they even just released an official mod that made the computer read me as female for romance purposes just so I could romance Torain, I'd deal with being called a lady, just so i looked male and could still have him as mine.

[Suaine]

For others, I don't know, but honestly I don't want another DA2, where everyone is bisexual, and everyone try to flirt with the hero, no matter his/her gender.

 

I keep hearing that, but can someone explain to me why that is such a hardship? Personally, the freedom that it gave me was absolutely stunning. DA2 will forever be the first game that really made me feel like I had the same worth as any straight player. And honestly, the flirt behavior of the companions was absolutely gated! It just wasn't gated by gender but by behavior/personality. And that? That was freaking magnificent.

 

So I'm going to probably going to get glares from alot of you for this, but I'm just so impatient and just want my happy ending...

 

I loved DA origins to bits, I think I've played it through like 17 times. I loved Zev, don't get me wrong, but the one I really always wanted was Allistair. When I saw the user mod to romance him I immediately installed it and it made my love of the game grow 500 times.

 

At this point, the BW silence in driving me crazy. I don't care about a fully fleshed out "story" to enhance some amazing romance. If they even just released an official mod that made the computer read me as female for romance purposes just so I could romance Torain, I'd deal with being called a lady, just so i looked male and could still have him as mine.

 

Hey, no, I understand that perfectly. I sometimes think that just being treated the same would be so much better than getting something "special" if that special thing means I have to wait for years or pay extra or maybe watch as that special thing gets pushed back again and again. In a perfect world, Bioware would have looked at romance as a whole, OGR and SGR as indistinguishable parts of the same feature, and never released just half of it.

 

Unfortunately what we have is different.

 

Perhaps some of you remember why I originally joined the forums: my male Smuggler was always conceptualized as gay, he'd flirt with women on occasion, but always back off as soon as they indicated any sort of interest. In the Smuggler story more so than most of the others, there is a very insistent assumption that the player character is straight. Even if there is no flirting of any kind going on, the companions will assume that the Smuggler is flirting/sleeping with the opposite sex left and right, or at least has done so until getting serious in a companion relationship.

 

This heteronormative assumption hurt me. It made me angry. And it kept coming. My Smuggler stopped flirting with anyone when, on Nar Shaddaa, even unmarked dialogue choices would end with him sleeping with a woman. It turned out that the game would shoe-horn him into two categories - straight and willing or straight and a jerk. There is no way to play a Smuggler as anything other than deeply closeted and that hurt me. So I came here, asking for non-companion flirt options and the ability to define my own character's sexuality rather than have the game define it for me.

 

I recently finished Corso's companion quests.

In their very last conversation, Corso reaffirms the heteronormative assumption of the game as it stands. He talks about how the Smuggler is his family, how he's the most important person in his life. And then, to really kick me in the teeth, talked about taking care of the Smuggler's kids. At least one of the dialogue options gives us Corso assuming that the Smuggler must have kids somewhere, because he has so many women, and that he'll be there when they catch up to them. Not just does the game still assume the Smuggler is straight, it's also once again painting him as a jerk without a soul, regardless of the choices I made.

 

 

I'm honestly at a point where I think that adding SGRAs right, as they said they wanted to, would take a lot more than just tweaking a few conversations. For some classes I'm sure it wouldn't take much, but the Smuggler at least is a minefield of heterosexism. And I want them to fix this. I want to be able to play a gay Smuggler, not just a token gay relationship with a companion when the rest of the game assumes he's straight.

[JediElf]

I keep hearing that, but can someone explain to me why that is such a hardship? Personally, the freedom that it gave me was absolutely stunning. DA2 will forever be the first game that really made me feel like I had the same worth as any straight player. And honestly, the flirt behavior of the companions was absolutely gated! It just wasn't gated by gender but by behavior/personality. And that? That was freaking magnificent.

 

I agree the DA2 way really should have been the template here. With so many players, and so many different companions to choose from, it just seems so odd that they are picking, and choosing which ones that we are going to 'get'.

 

Just haul in all the hear-human and human companions VAs to record some alternate dialog,and add in a few relationship quests, or alter the current ones. Then we can all be happy with our choices, and add some SGR flirts with NPCs as well, then we can choose who our character prefers, and can really love who we wish in the Empire (or Republic).

 

I totally feel your frustration, I do. I feels like a giant hole is missing in the game, it's not a bad game but, it's incomplete...and we have to wait for so long for it to be complete. I just wish we had a bit more communication on this...something.....anything. >_<

 

Hey, no, I understand that perfectly. I sometimes think that just being treated the same would be so much better than getting something "special" if that special thing means I have to wait for years or pay extra or maybe watch as that special thing gets pushed back again and again. In a perfect world, Bioware would have looked at romance as a whole, OGR and SGR as indistinguishable parts of the same feature, and never released just half of it.

 

Unfortunately what we have is different.

 

So very true, so well said, and I agree 100%.

 

Edit to add: I don't play Republic much, but I can vouch that on the imperial side, at least the male imp classes, that it's never assumed that they are straight, and really any flirts with females can be avoided (I play dark side quite a bit so perhaps I'm getting different reactions, but so far that's what I'm getting). I'm not to max with all the classes but this is the impression I've gotten so far. So I find what you've said about being a smuggler kinda, disconcerting, to say the least......I think I'll just make another Imperial Agent.

Edited April 20, 2012 by JediElf

[Darth_Eminok]

The society in which I live in is quite QUITE weird and inhabited by flamers, trolls, fanboys, drones, and other things I do not wish to mention.

[Zandilar]

Hey guys, can we please stop talking in absolutes when it comes to who is going to be SGRA, please? I don't think it's beyond the realms of possibilities that NEW companions will be added for SGRA and other, existing companions might be left out. (It might not be a sure bet that if gender!class get one <insert gender here> romancable, that that companion will automatically be SGRable. It could be possible they'll add a new companion for that class. ie: Nadia Grell for JC might not end up being the f/f romancable, and we might see the Consular get a new female companion entirely.)

 

Also, because I'm compelled to do this every time someone brings up Kaliyo. I have no problem with people who want Kaliyo, but not all of us want her, and I can see SGRAs being limited to one or two companions per gender per class. If they're only using existing companions, I'd much rather see Rania than Kaliyo being available for fem!IAs. If they're going to add companions, I think they should aim for every class/gender combo to get one LS/neutral, and one DS romanceable (adding new ones only if they have to).

 

I keep hearing that, but can someone explain to me why that is such a hardship? Personally, the freedom that it gave me was absolutely stunning. DA2 will forever be the first game that really made me feel like I had the same worth as any straight player. And honestly, the flirt behavior of the companions was absolutely gated! It just wasn't gated by gender but by behavior/personality. And that? That was freaking magnificent.

 

Okay, I'll take a stab at this. Disclaimers: I loved DA2's (female) romances. I never played through the male romances with Fem!Hawke and have never played as Male!Hawke.

 

I believe that the homosexual versions of the relationships play out exactly the same way as the heterosexual relationships, only influenced in any way by whether or not the relationship is a friendship or a rivalry. Realistically, Hawke's gender should play a role in those relationships, and they would develop somewhat (subtly) differently. However, the relationships were designed to minimise the amount of writing (and time in the booth for the VAs) needed, which is fair enough.

 

Also, some people have it in their heads that having four bisexual people in the one group is unrealistic, given the general consensus about how many gay people there are in any population (somewhere between 1% and 10% depending on whose figures you're looking at). Of course anyone who is in anyway homosexual will tell you that four in the one group isn't unrealistic at all - it all depends on the group and where you are, who you're associating with. If you don't associate with gay people in general, yeah maybe the general population rule comes into play when looking at your friends and associates... but if you're a gay person and you form friendships with gay people, you're going to find that if you all gather in a group, that group won't conform to the general population percentage. So, it could be that Hawke attracts companions and friends who are bisexual. (Or it can be taken that some of your companions are straight if your Hawke is the same gender - Merril, for example, and maybe Fenris, since I'm pretty sure their attraction to Hawke doesn't come up unless Hawke actively pursues them.)

 

Personally, if they'd done a better job on ME3, I'd hold it up as an example to strive for. It had straight romantic interests (Ashley, Thane, Garrus, Tali, Miranda, Jack, Jacob), bisexual romantic interests (Liara, Allers, Kelly, Kaiden), and completely gay romantic interests (Steve, Samantha). The only problem was that Samantha's relationship was very... uh... sparse compared to Steve's. I'd go into this a bit more, and talk a bit about Liara as well, but it's wildly off topic for this thread - I'm just using it as an example of what I'd like to see in this game, or in future Bioware titles. A game where characters actually do have their own sexualities, and aren't bisexual simply for expedience (which is the case in DA2, whether or not you liked the romances).

[Lent_San]

I keep hearing that, but can someone explain to me why that is such a hardship? Personally, the freedom that it gave me was absolutely stunning. DA2 will forever be the first game that really made me feel like I had the same worth as any straight player. And honestly, the flirt behavior of the companions was absolutely gated! It just wasn't gated by gender but by behavior/personality. And that? That was freaking magnificent.

I fully agree. I loved that about DA2 and in the end I liked that part of the game more than DAO, because it gave me such a freedom.

Edited April 21, 2012 by Lent_San

[natashina]

Looking good! One tiny quibble: I'm a her, not a him ;D

 

Sorry, things have been a little chaotic IRL, so I over looked that. I fixed it though.

 

I edited the FAQ to say that the OP poll is no longer relevant to the thread. I'm trying to get that nipped in the bud.

Edited April 21, 2012 by natashina

[Suaine]

Thanks for taking the time to get into this with me, Zandilar.

 

I believe that the homosexual versions of the relationships play out exactly the same way as the heterosexual relationships, only influenced in any way by whether or not the relationship is a friendship or a rivalry. Realistically, Hawke's gender should play a role in those relationships, and they would develop somewhat (subtly) differently. However, the relationships were designed to minimise the amount of writing (and time in the booth for the VAs) needed, which is fair enough.

 

Gender does change and influence the dialogue though, at least in the male romances. Anders gets a whole speech about loving the person, not the body, and Fenris continuously references male Hawke as a handsome man etc. It is subtly different. It's less different than the changes from personality and actions, but that is what made it so good for me.

 

I do believe the idea that the relationships were written to minimize the time and effort it took comes from a comment Gaider made in relation to the Straight Male Gamer letter and is not so much a statement of intent as it is a happy accident. It took slightly less effort to write and code than it would have if they had exclusively straight options.

 

Also, some people have it in their heads that having four bisexual people in the one group is unrealistic, given the general consensus about how many gay people there are in any population (somewhere between 1% and 10% depending on whose figures you're looking at). Of course anyone who is in anyway homosexual will tell you that four in the one group isn't unrealistic at all - it all depends on the group and where you are, who you're associating with. If you don't associate with gay people in general, yeah maybe the general population rule comes into play when looking at your friends and associates... but if you're a gay person and you form friendships with gay people, you're going to find that if you all gather in a group, that group won't conform to the general population percentage. So, it could be that Hawke attracts companions and friends who are bisexual. (Or it can be taken that some of your companions are straight if your Hawke is the same gender - Merril, for example, and maybe Fenris, since I'm pretty sure their attraction to Hawke doesn't come up unless Hawke actively pursues them.)

 

It's always amusing to me when this comes up because a) realism almost only makes an appearance when it means I, as a LGBT player, should get fewer options than the straight male gamer and b) realism in a heroic fantasy with magic and dragons... yeah. Sure. At their core, these relationships are designed to give us as the players some epic wish fulfillment so I damn well want the same consideration anyone else gets. Does that make it less realistic? Sure! But then it isn't particularly realistic that Corso Riggs could fall in love with a lightside petite Twi'lek as well as a dark side bulky Sith, and yet thanks to legacy that is exactly what can happen. So forced realism in this aspect of my games can go and die for all I care. I want choices.

 

Personally, if they'd done a better job on ME3, I'd hold it up as an example to strive for. It had straight romantic interests (Ashley, Thane, Garrus, Tali, Miranda, Jack, Jacob), bisexual romantic interests (Liara, Allers, Kelly, Kaiden), and completely gay romantic interests (Steve, Samantha). The only problem was that Samantha's relationship was very... uh... sparse compared to Steve's. I'd go into this a bit more, and talk a bit about Liara as well, but it's wildly off topic for this thread - I'm just using it as an example of what I'd like to see in this game, or in future Bioware titles. A game where characters actually do have their own sexualities, and aren't bisexual simply for expedience (which is the case in DA2, whether or not you liked the romances).

 

I'm very fond of the new romance characters in ME3, Steve and Sam are awesome and it only bothers me a little that they were shortchanged during the last few conversations. Their very presence and unapologetic sexuality gives me a lot of faith in how Bioware approaches the subject. That the execution was lacking in some parts only means there is room to grow.

 

I'm unsure, however, if the ME3 model is a good template for SWTOR. A straight male player character still had the most options to choose from and the gay male player character still had the least. In SWTOR we don't have that same abundance of romanceable characters, especially if they aren't going to change any of the non-companion romances. Even if they add one new companion per class, we simply can't get that same amount of choice, or really any choice, unless we make characters available to both genders. Right now even most straight characters don't have a choice!

 

What I'm trying to say is that the DA2 model may be different to ME3, but neither is exactly superior. There is nothing wrong with the DA2 model of companion sexuality. It is nice to have some exclusively gay characters in ME3, it really is, and I wouldn't mind seeing that in SWTOR, but to offer the greatest amount of customization and choice in SWTOR, a greater number of bisexual characters may be what we should expect. (Also, if they do go with a number of exclusively gay characters, I honestly expect this forum to explode. If Zenith is gay, I will laugh and laugh and laugh.)

 

(Also, I may be one of the few people on here who thinks that the next generation of games should really look into something beyond the gender binary. Why choose a gender if we could just customize our characters to have the features that would express a certain gender, or not! The binary is a simplified concept anyway and video games could do so much to further self-expression especially for the trans community.)

[natashina]

<excellent post snipped for length.>

 

Also, I may be one of the few people on here who thinks that the next generation of games should really look into something beyond the gender binary. Why choose a gender if we could just customize our characters to have the features that would express a certain gender, or not! The binary is a simplified concept anyway and video games could do so much to further self-expression especially for the trans community.

 

I just wanted to add that no, you aren't alone on that one. I really feel the video game industry could really use more progression in that field. I'm really really hoping that the SGR model that BioWare ends up using for ToR could help set a prescient. Even if it isn't perfect, it would be nice to see gaming companies take notes. This will be the most high profile SGR content to date.

 

I didn't play the DA games nor Mass Effect, so I don't know there. I do know that by default, an mmo is typically higher profile than other games. Shoot, I didn't know about the SGRs in DA or ME until I came into this thread.

 

Hopefully, by showing the world that including SGRs isn't as scary or weird as some might think, it'll help push innovation in other video games as well.

Edited April 21, 2012 by natashina

[llesna]

I'd very much like to hope that some existing companions will end up romanceable by both male and female characters, with subtle changes to the dialogue tree and voice acting to fit accordingly. Naturally not every companion character would fit into this idea, but some most definitely would.

 

My main worry is that adding entirely new companions just for SGRA will take a considerable period of time and may only be available to players in the late-game, perhaps even post-50. Like many other gamers in support of SGRA, I want them done right, but I'd rather not have to wait until Winter or even 2013 to get them.

 

In addition to more character slots per server (even if I have to pay for them to get to the 16 I'm after), this is one of the biggest things I feel is missing from the game. (If I could then get a hood toggle and the ability to hide the companion head slot, I'd be a very happy bunny!)

Edited May 3, 2012 by llesna

[natashina]

 

My main worry is that adding entirely new companions just for SGRA will take a considerable period of time and may only be available to players in the late-game, perhaps even post-50. Like many other gamers in support of SGRA, I want them done right, but I'd rather not have to wait until Winter or even 2013 to get them.

 

I can reassure you that it won't take that long. On the FAQ on page 1, there is quotes from the devs. One of them was from the Guild Summit in March, stating that these updates are coming this year. The link in my signature goes to the FAQ, where there is a lot of quotes from the devs on this matter.

 

Also, I am pretty certain that they will be adding new story arcs for leveling toons as well as those already maxed. It seems silly if they aren't planning for that as well.

 

If I could then get a hood toggle and the ability to hide the companion head slot, I'd be a very happy bunny!

 

I second this. My signature used to say, "The only new toggle needed is to shut off companion helms." Some of those look outright goofy(poor Doc, poor Kira,) so it would be nice to shut them off.

 

OT: The helms are the only part of the armor sets that I feel really look poor. Kira either looks like she has a doily on her head, or a bra. My husband's reaction to one of the helms was to quote Weird Science. "Next thing I know you two idiots will be wearing bras on your heads."

Edited April 21, 2012 by natashina

[llesna]

The problem of updates being planned for this year is that there are 8 months still left in 2012 for that "this year" deadline to still be met. I'm hoping we'll see something much sooner, as I'm aching to add some flair to some new characters. Hopefully I won't be forced to start a new legacy to go beyond my 8 characters though, so heavily hoping that SGRA will come alongside purchaseable extra character slots too. Edited May 3, 2012 by llesna

[FaithWhisper]

The problem of updates being planned for this year is that there are 8 months still left in 2012 for that "this year" deadline to still be met. I'm hoping we'll see something much sooner, as I'm aching to add some flair to some new characters. Hopefully I won't be forced to start a new legacy to go beyond my 8 characters though, so heavily hoping that SGRA will come alongside purchaseable extra character slots too.

 

Actually, I doublt we'll see anything until last quarter of this year. And I don't mind.

I want the story arch to be just right... oh and of course the SGRA too

Edited April 21, 2012 by FaithWhisper

[PathosRah]

Is the same sex story line for companions happening or no? If so when? I've almost got 8 toons to level 50 and then I can't do the story line as far as I know once they have 10,000 affection. So what's up?

[Rayla_Felana]

Is the same sex story line for companions happening or no? If so when? I've almost got 8 toons to level 50 and then I can't do the story line as far as I know once they have 10,000 affection. So what's up?

 

'This year' - Daniel Erickson.

 

Basically, when you hear a date for the next major story update, that's when you will see them.

[MusedMoose]

Is the same sex story line for companions happening or no? If so when? I've almost got 8 toons to level 50 and then I can't do the story line as far as I know once they have 10,000 affection. So what's up?

What Rayla_Felana said. Also, as far as I know, you can simply not do the companions' story missions and there doesn't seem to be any penalty for putting them off. With several characters, I've had four or five companion missions in a row from the same companion after I passed a certain point in my character's story. Based on this, I think that people who have a really high affection with characters who become SGR options will suddenly find themselves with new missions for that companion. If I'm right, it'll just be a really fast romance.

 

Another reason why I think it will work like this is that BioWare knows this is important to many of us. I really don't think they would make it so people had to start their characters again from level 1 just to get new romance missions.

[Lent_San]

It is kind of bugging me to think that none of the current companions might end up being a SGR option. Like someone said before, it would make sense to implement slight changes to the conversation trees, plus a few changes of dialogue here and there to instantly add a lot of new options for the SGR crowd. Heck, I'm one of the few who played a modded male Shep romancing Kaidan and a few mentions of "her" instead of "him" aside plus a few cutscenes that had the gender wrong, I didn't notice a big difference or felt distracted in any major way.

 

It's our own imagination at work in the end, so whatever we feel should be fine, will be fine. I haven't gotten over some of the lines yet my fem Consular issued in the Irresso Romance arc (they were so incredibly cheesy ) but despite being sceptical about them in the beginning, I still ended up loving that couple and I do wanna see more of them.

 

The player him/herself would make a vast majority of romance options work for him/her I think, with a little help from the game of course.^^

 

PS: I have my eyes set on Corso Riggs for SGR option. I hope he'll become one. That said, I wouldn't mind new companions, but it's not that the old ones are not interesting. We've already spent a lot of time with them.

[Zandilar]

Thanks for taking the time to get into this with me, Zandilar.

 

I find the subject interesting. I had begun writing a reply to this last night, but switched my computer off without thinking and lost it. Oh well, lol.

 

 

Gender does change and influence the dialogue though, at least in the male romances. Anders gets a whole speech about loving the person, not the body, and Fenris continuously references male Hawke as a handsome man etc. It is subtly different. It's less different than the changes from personality and actions, but that is what made it so good for me.

 

Well, as I said, I haven't played both sides of the male romances, or both sides of the female romances for that matter. I guess I'm rather stuck in my ways in that regard.

 

I do believe the idea that the relationships were written to minimize the time and effort it took comes from a comment Gaider made in relation to the Straight Male Gamer letter and is not so much a statement of intent as it is a happy accident. It took slightly less effort to write and code than it would have if they had exclusively straight options.

 

It just makes business sense to do things that limit costs. Especially if you want to make a profit in the end (and profits are good, because profits lead to DLC, sequels, and new games). Writing one bisexual character, where there are really only cosmetic differences between their OS and SS lines saves time - writing a straight character is faster, since only one set of lines needs to be worried about. Writing a straight and a gay character would take the most time, because you need to develop both characters. Making all the characters bisexual is a compromise in order to have romances in the game, and include options non-straight sexualities.

 

You can see how this works by comparing DA2 to ME3. DA2 had four quite meaty romances that worked for both genders of Hawke. ME3 had a variety, with only really Liara, VS, Tali, and Garrus getting the best romances (Kaiden as the m/m interest was almost as good as Liara from everything I've read about it), followed by Steve Cortez, and everyone else (including Samantha) seems to have been an after thought in ME3 (so in the end, discounting Steve and the Afterthoughts, it was... wait for it... four love interests with substantial arcs, only two (or one, if your VS was Ashley) of which were bisexual). Also, there were a grand total of 12 potential LIs - in order for them to have been treated fairly, there would have had to have been a frack-ton more writing done. Hopefully Bioware learns from this and never again tries to include so many LIs... oh wait. *eyes SWTOR*

 

I do also want to say one thing about David Gaider (who I actually respect a great deal). Back in the NWN days, he was against the idea of "everyone's bi" - though to be fair, it was probably more just against making romances gender neutral. Funny how things turn out.

 

It's always amusing to me when this comes up because a) realism almost only makes an appearance when it means I, as a LGBT player, should get fewer options than the straight male gamer and b) realism in a heroic fantasy with magic and dragons... yeah. Sure. At their core, these relationships are designed to give us as the players some epic wish fulfillment so I damn well want the same consideration anyone else gets. Does that make it less realistic? Sure! But then it isn't particularly realistic that Corso Riggs could fall in love with a lightside petite Twi'lek as well as a dark side bulky Sith, and yet thanks to legacy that is exactly what can happen. So forced realism in this aspect of my games can go and die for all I care. I want choices.

 

To play devil's advocate here again, there does have to be a certain level of realism in any game (or story), no matter the genre. If there isn't, the world isn't relatable. So dragons might fly, but apples still fall from their trees and obey the laws of gravity, unless there's a wizard about.

 

However, having said that. I agree with you. Wholeheartedly.

 

I'm very fond of the new romance characters in ME3, Steve and Sam are awesome and it only bothers me a little that they were shortchanged during the last few conversations. Their very presence and unapologetic sexuality gives me a lot of faith in how Bioware approaches the subject. That the execution was lacking in some parts only means there is room to grow.

 

Sam is far more short changed than Steve.

 

I'm unsure, however, if the ME3 model is a good template for SWTOR. A straight male player character still had the most options to choose from and the gay male player character still had the least. In SWTOR we don't have that same abundance of romanceable characters, especially if they aren't going to change any of the non-companion romances. Even if they add one new companion per class, we simply can't get that same amount of choice, or really any choice, unless we make characters available to both genders. Right now even most straight characters don't have a choice!

 

Straight male player characters will always have the most love interests in any game, because most marketing departments seem to be under the (correct) impression that the majority of gamers are straight (white) males. Of course, that is changing, and the marketers seem to be slow to pick up on it. There are more and more women picking up games, and some of them are even lesbian. However, there are probably still more gay male than there are lesbian gamers.

 

As for ME3 - straight female Shepards had the least. Or maybe that's equal least? Or maybe it would simply be more accurate to say that they got the worst treatment of any Shepards in ME3. Why?

 

 

Thane dies, Jacob is having a baby with another woman, Garrus and Kaiden can both be killed prior to ME3. There is no one new for straight female Shepard in ME3.

 

By contrast gay male Shepards get Kaiden and Steve. Kaiden can be killed, but Steve is new. And because Steve is new, he cannot be killed - he (and Sam) has(have) plot armour better than Liara's!

 

 

 

What I'm trying to say is that the DA2 model may be different to ME3, but neither is exactly superior. There is nothing wrong with the DA2 model of companion sexuality. It is nice to have some exclusively gay characters in ME3, it really is, and I wouldn't mind seeing that in SWTOR, but to offer the greatest amount of customization and choice in SWTOR, a greater number of bisexual characters may be what we should expect. (Also, if they do go with a number of exclusively gay characters, I honestly expect this forum to explode. If Zenith is gay, I will laugh and laugh and laugh.)

 

I don't think there's anything really wrong with either way of handling romantic arcs, either, provided they're done well. Cutting corners, and just switching pronouns around is simply not good enough in this day and age.

 

I would like to see some exclusively gay characters, but I'm not really holding my breath.

 

(Also, I may be one of the few people on here who thinks that the next generation of games should really look into something beyond the gender binary. Why choose a gender if we could just customize our characters to have the features that would express a certain gender, or not! The binary is a simplified concept anyway and video games could do so much to further self-expression especially for the trans community.)

 

I don't think you're the only one. I'd like to see transgender NPCs, and maybe the option to play a transgender PC. Personally, I wouldn't play one, and unless the romance was very very special, I doubt any of my characters would ever romance them... But I'd like to see the option there. However, having said that, there are a couple of instances of transgender/genderqueer characters in SWTOR.

 

 

One of which is Hunter from the IA's storyline, who poses as male for almost the entire time you know him... only revealing himself to actually be female right at the end.

 

 

However, having said that... MORE NON-WHITE HUMANS PLEASE!!!!!!!! (and I mean LOTS MORE.)

[Hyfy]

Hi there!

 

Because the previous thread has exceeded our normal threshold for thread length, we've started this new thread for the community to discuss the how and when of implementation of same-gender romances in the Star Wars™: The Old Republic™.

 

Please keep your discussions related to the game. Discussions regarding real-life politics, morality and religion do not belong in this thread or anywhere else on the forums. We ask that all replies be on-topic, constructive and respectful, or else they will be removed.

 

Our official statement:

 

 

 

As a gentle reminder: Discussion of the implementation of toggles to filter same gender romance options is considered discriminatory language and is neither appropriate nor allowed on the forums. Posts along this vein of discussion will be removed. This thread is for the discussion of the how and when of implementation of same gender romances. Please stay constructive, on topic, and be kind to your fellow forum members. If you see someone who is breaking the forum rules, do not respond; please flag their post and the Community Team will investigate. Flag, don't fight!

 

As always, we ask that the community keep the following things in mind when responding:

 

• Stay on Target - Please keep discussion on topic.
  
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For anyone who wishes to discuss [Flirt] options, please do know that we also have a thread for that discussion in the Suggestion Box.

 

Thank you and enjoy the discussion!

 

Because I don't have the time or the patience right now to read through some 50+ pages of posts, could someone explain to me how discussing an on/off or filtering toggle is discriminatory? Seems obvious that I missed something here, and while I'm not opposed to the same sex Interactions in game I'm just confused on how discussing having more options to tailor your gaming experience to your likes is discriminatory. Really just a simple "hey this happened so everyone day we're going to do this instead" would suffice.

[MusedMoose]

Because I don't have the time or the patience right now to read through some 50+ pages of posts, could someone explain to me how discussing an on/off or filtering toggle is discriminatory? Seems obvious that I missed something here, and while I'm not opposed to the same sex Interactions in game I'm just confused on how discussing having more options to tailor your gaming experience to your likes is discriminatory. Really just a simple "hey this happened so everyone day we're going to do this instead" would suffice.

Welcome to the thread.

 

A toggle to keep players from having same-gender relationship content is considered discriminatory because it's basically asking to have a minority removed from one's gaming experience. Despite all the other content in the game that could be considered offensive (murder, torture, racism/speciesism, and so on), SGRs are the only feature people have asked to have an option to hide. This led to so many arguments that BioWare's people came forth with their official statement, saying they consider discussion of the toggle discriminatory language. Tailoring of one's game experience should not include being able to pretend a minority doesn't exist.

 

In other words, all toggle discussion basically boiled down to some people saying "I don't want gays in my game" and others trying to explain to them why that was not okay, and it led to a lot of heated discussions, many with posts the mods had to delete.

 

Hope this helps.

Edited April 22, 2012 by MusedMoose

[G-Girl]

After finally hitting 50 with my Twi'lek sorcerer I was able to start creating Twi'leks everywhere, and one was a bounty hunter. When I first visited Nemro's palace I noticed another Twi'lek called Juda. She didin't have the mission triangle over her head, but when I clicked on her it went to a cut scene and we had a little chat. It was the closest I've got to flirting with another female so far in the game.

 

I'm wondering if maybe they just gave the same options to everyone and didn't bother gender coding it, since most people won't even notice it. Either way, it was a nice thing to find so I thought I'd share.

 

ETA: I've spoken to her several times now (when she did have the mission icon) and there is definite flirtage. And it's clearly intended because she's made several gender references. I'm assuming this is going nowhere (yet), but it's still cute.

Edited April 22, 2012 by G-Girl