The Myth of the SW:ToR Story; No it can't support an MMO.

[CharleyDanger]

It was covered in the story in WoW too. But you didn't read, did you?

 

I read every word. When I quested with my buddy, and he shared all of his quest, I told him to hold up and I read every quest story. My buddy of course laughed at the idea because he already knew how weak the side quest stories really were.

 

Mass Effect, Red Dead Redemption, Heavy Rain, LA Noire, these are my favorite games. I love me some mother *********** story lol. SWTOR does not come close to the above games IMO, but SWTOR has a very solid story. WoW was on par with something that you would find on the book self in Mrs. Sanders 2nd grade class room. The concept was cool, it was not the cartoony nature of the game that I did not like, but even the main line quests were told in 2 or less paragraphs. WoWs story was as weak as drinking water.

 

 

I love WoW lore. I read a ton of stuff before playing the game, but the game did a terrible of job of telling the very rich story of the world.

Edited March 23, 2012 by CharleyDanger

[Lethality]

Personally, and this will be somewhat contentious, I'm of the opinion that SW:ToR is pretty much what LA wanted SW:Galaxies NGE to be, the difference being that we no longer have a sandbox game underneath it.

 

This was exactly the intention.

[Lethality]

I read every word. When I quested with my buddy, and he shared all of his quest, I told him to hold up and I read every quest story. My buddy of course laughed at the idea because he already knew how weak the side quest stories really were.

 

Mass Effect, Red Dead Redemption, Heavy Rain, LA Noire, these are my favorite games. I love me some mother *********** story lol. SWTOR does not come close to the above games IMO, but SWTOR has a very solid story. WoW was on par with something that you would find on the book self in Mrs. Sanders 2nd grade class room. The concept was cool, it was not the cartoony nature of the game that I did not like, but even the main line quests were told in 2 or less paragraphs. WoWs story was as weak as drinking water.

 

 

I love WoW lore. I read a ton of stuff before playing the game, but the game did a terrible of job of telling the very rich story of the world.

 

I completely and wholeheartedly disagree with you.

 

Now you could make a case for some quests in Vanilla not being connected, but there were some amazing stories told even then.... The Battle of Darrowshire? The Tirion Fordring line? Mor'Ladim? The Scythe of Elune? I could go on!

 

And they got better and better in expansions... to the point where almost everything you did was wrapped in a little mini-story that contributed to the overall end goal, wether is was the eventual march on the Black Temple, ramping up for the battle against the Lich King, or especially throughout Cataclysm.

 

If you actually read the quest text and then approached it as a story, not just go into a quest hub and "knock them out" then they were very well done, and I'd say much more contextually satisfying than TOR's questing.

 

The bonus here is that Blizzard tells story mostly though action and demonstration, as opposed to digital actors reading some lines to you.

 

Also, like a good book, there's also room for imagination in the story of WoW... Due to the way it's presented in TOR, it feels like there's no room for imagination. And that might be the biggest issue I have with it.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Lethality

[RabidPopcorn]

I completely and wholeheartedly disagree with you.

 

Now you could make a case for some quests in Vanilla not being connected, but there were some amazing stories told even then.... The Battle of Darrowshire? The Tirion Fordring line? Mor'Ladim? The Scythe of Elune? I could go on!

 

And they got better and better in expansions... to the point where almost everything you did was wrapped in a little mini-story that contributed to the overall end goal, wether is was the eventual march on the Black Temple, ramping up for the battle against the Lich King, or especially throughout Cataclysm.

 

If you actually read the quest text and then approached it as a story, not just go into a quest hub and "knock them out" then they were very well done, and I'd say much more contextually satisfying than TOR's questing.

 

The bonus here is that Blizzard tells story mostly though action and demonstration, as opposed to digital actors reading some lines to you.

 

Also, like a good book, there's also room for imagination in the story of WoW... Due to the way it's presented in TOR, it feels like there's no room for imagination. And that might be the biggest issue I have with it.

 

Well said, and WoW didn't try to sell itself as some story MMO. Btw, if anyone here thinks SWTOR's storyline is great, you need to read a novel.

[CharleyDanger]

I completely and wholeheartedly disagree with you.

 

Now you could make a case for some quests in Vanilla not being connected, but there were some amazing stories told even then.... The Battle of Darrowshire? The Tirion Fordring line? Mor'Ladim? The Scythe of Elune? I could go on!

 

And they got better and better in expansions... to the point where almost everything you did was wrapped in a little mini-story that contributed to the overall end goal, wether is was the eventual march on the Black Temple, ramping up for the battle against the Lich King, or especially throughout Cataclysm.

 

If you actually read the quest text and then approached it as a story, not just go into a quest hub and "knock them out" then they were very well done, and I'd say much more contextually satisfying than TOR's questing.

 

The bonus here is that Blizzard tells story mostly though action and demonstration, as opposed to digital actors reading some lines to you.

 

Also, like a good book, there's also room for imagination in the story of WoW... Due to the way it's presented in TOR, it feels like there's no room for imagination. And that might be the biggest issue I have with it.

 

I just told you I read every word of story lol. You can disagree with me, but dont keep saying its because I did not read the quests. I even gave you my gaming background to show how much I love story in games.

 

I saw very very little action and demonstration in WoW. In fact I have never seen a game with such limited canned animations.

 

The part of SWTOR that lets you exercise you imagination is how you play your character. You get to choose what you say in the game, and the story behind your decisions are complete yours. Plus its SW, one of the greatest sagas ever told. Leaving too much to your imagination would be like putting ketchup on steak. When your telling me the story of the Godfather I do not need to put my own ideas in the mix lol.

 

I cant say your wrong because this is all subjective. I also cant say the story does not get better because I bowed out at lvl 20. I do know that in those 20 lvls the side quests had no connection to the main quest line. The worst part was that the side quests made no sense. One sec Im doing something that is very very important to help the war front, and the next sec Im picking pumpkins for a stew XD. Say what you will about SWTOR, but you cant deny that most side quests are as every bit as important as the main quests. And when they are not you have the option to tell the NPC "Look it, I have important **** I have to do, I might help you out if I have time"

[CharleyDanger]

Well said, and WoW didn't try to sell itself as some story MMO. Btw, if anyone here thinks SWTOR's storyline is great, you need to read a novel.

 

What lol? Have you played the Sith Warrior or Jedi Knight? The reason WoW did not sell it self as a story MMO is because it was very far from it. Thats like saying "You dont see dish washer detergent trying to sell it self as car oil"

[Spartanik]

Well said, and WoW didn't try to sell itself as some story MMO. Btw, if anyone here thinks SWTOR's storyline is great, you need to read a novel.

 

Its great in its context. Are you serious comparing a video game story to a Novel?!

[CharleyDanger]

Its great in its context. Are you serious comparing a video game story to a Novel?!

 

Depends on the game and novel lol. Red Dead and LA Noire were better than a lot of novels.

[Criosdh]

It is still very soon to tell. I give them credit for DARING to do what no other MMO has done; put back RPG into MMORPG. But a few promises have been broken.

 

Non-linear questing isn't that non-linear, though there is some diversity. Of course having to deal with multiple branches is too much, so I understand.

The possibility of companions backstabbing me. Is it possible or taken out?

The leveling experience will not be the same once you roll a new alt. Well true for class stories, but the generic missions are still the same.

 

So I'm not some fanboy that automatically thinks this MMO is perfect. It's more like I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

 

I am particularly impressed with social points. I leveled with someone at the start and it was fun watching each other's class stories. It was also fun participating in conversations. It didn't feel like 2 people doing 2 separate quests. It felt like 2 people being part of the same quest.

 

And when you have a 4 people handing in the mission, hoho, it felt like 4 heroes who just defeated the evil enemy. I just wish that after clearing a hard mission, I can buy my 3 comrades a round of drinks at the cantina on a job well done. But it isn't possible.

 

So a lot of potential is there. I guess the initial promises were too much to keep, but I give them A for effort.

 

Actually RPG as you're describing never had a place in the original MMOs. The original MMOs did not make you the hero. You were never the chosen one and you did not follow some laid out storyline that was going to end in the same place regardless of what you do.

 

MMOs now days are just turning into multiplayer games with single player RPG gameplay. If you added a massively multiplayer code to Oblivion then you'd have the modern MMO.

 

In the original MMOs you were thrown out naked into the wilderness and your story is who and what you became in the process through your own actions and play style, how yu interacted with your realm mates, how often you helped defend against the enemy, etc. Not your limited choices in some choose your own adventure style storyline.

 

Everytime someone says quests or storyline "puts the RPG back into MMORPG" or anything of the sort I know they have no clue what the original MMO genre was.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Criosdh

[Criosdh]

I just told you I read every word of story lol. You can disagree with me, but dont keep saying its because I did not read the quests. I even gave you my gaming background to show how much I love story in games.

 

I saw very very little action and demonstration in WoW. In fact I have never seen a game with such limited canned animations.

 

The part of SWTOR that lets you exercise you imagination is how you play your character. You get to choose what you say in the game, and the story behind your decisions are complete yours. Plus its SW, one of the greatest sagas ever told. Leaving too much to your imagination would be like putting ketchup on steak. When your telling me the story of the Godfather I do not need to put my own ideas in the mix lol.

 

I cant say your wrong because this is all subjective. I also cant say the story does not get better because I bowed out at lvl 20. I do know that in those 20 lvls the side quests had no connection to the main quest line. The worst part was that the side quests made no sense. One sec Im doing something that is very very important to help the war front, and the next sec Im picking pumpkins for a stew XD. Say what you will about SWTOR, but you cant deny that most side quests are as every bit as important as the main quests. And when they are not you have the option to tell the NPC "Look it, I have important **** I have to do, I might help you out if I have time"

 

Uhh I think you're confusing the context of fantasy quests vs SWtOR.

 

It's not like trying to convince some Tw'lecks wife to come back to him is going to save the galaxy.

 

Collecting robot parts for some cooky scientist who thinks his bots are sentient really isn't anymore important than collecting bear furs for a family that make freeze to death this winter without them.

 

The technology aspect of SWtOR just makes if seem more pressing but the basic context of the quest is the same.

[RabidPopcorn]

What lol? Have you played the Sith Warrior or Jedi Knight? The reason WoW did not sell it self as a story MMO is because it was very far from it. Thats like saying "You dont see dish washer detergent trying to sell it self as car oil"

 

No I haven't.

 

Its great in its context. Are you serious comparing a video game story to a Novel?!

 

They made the LOTR books into movies and the movies were really nice to watch, more enjoyable than the story I was offered in SWTOR (I'm not saying SWTOR sucks, just that it's story isn't really that fantastic). Especially if I just consider the class story alone then it would seem that it wouldn't even make 500 pages, unless they contrived to do (an example of how you can do this would be a Warcraft novel I read - they tried to stretch a 100 page story over 300 pages).

[Kendakon]

Ok with a simple reply: If they could make the game so that each choice resulted in a totally different ending, they would. They actually considered it when the game was in pre-design stage. Thing is that the actual size of the game would be enormous (byte size) and the cost for VO will be astronomical ...and then you would have those who want to be able to see the other options to whine about it . Instead they chose a more compact option.

 

yes, because we all know there is nothing between "each choice resulted in a totally different ending" <---> "One ending, choices don't matter at all"

 

Even 2 paths, 1 for the Light/1 for Dark, would have been a HUGE improvemtent. Honestly anything beyond that would be flavor and not entirely necessary. But those 2 paths are almost required for the story to be interesting and give the player a feeling attachment. Which is why it boggles my mind that it was made COMPLETELY meaningless.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Kendakon

[CharleyDanger]

Uhh I think you're confusing the context of fantasy quests vs SWtOR.

 

It's not like trying to convince some Tw'lecks wife to come back to him is going to save the galaxy.

 

Collecting robot parts for some cooky scientist who thinks his bots are sentient really isn't anymore important than collecting bear furs for a family that make freeze to death this winter without them.

 

The technology aspect of SWtOR just makes if seem more pressing but the basic context of the quest is the same.

 

I said most of the side quests were on par with the main quests. I also said that you were given chat options that let you explain to the NPC that there problem was not important. My main is a Bounty Hunter, and I never had to do anything cooky really lol. The vast majority of my side quests were about collecting a bounty. In 20 lvls of WoW it seemed like every side quest had nothing what so ever to do with the main quests. Its mostly subjective, these things. Yet most critics and fans note how well SWTOR has woven side quests with the main quests.

[CharleyDanger]

yes, because we all know there is nothing between "each choice resulted in a totally different ending" <---> "One ending, choices don't matter at all"

 

Even 2 paths, 1 for the Light/1 for Dark, would have been a HUGE improvemtent. Honestly anything beyond that would be flavor and not entirely necessary. But those 2 paths are almost required for the story to be interesting and give the player a feeling attachment. Which is why it boggles my mind that it was made COMPLETELY meaningless.

 

I agree, but I think its was biowares intention when the started making the game. I would bet a good amount of money that future expansions will include multi-path story lines. Given the fact the 1.2 is what Bioware wanted the game to launch as, its probably safe to say there are a ton of things that they wanted to do but could not fit into launch.

[RodneyMmKay]

I understand where you are coming from, I think an MMORPG (I've always disliked the shortening of it to MMO, but like I said I'm old school) has 3 pillars that need to keep it running:

 

1) story/mythology; TOR has this in abundance,

 

2) game play and mechanics; this game isn't technical enough, it's too simple and very "cookie cutter".

 

3) Community; we don't have one, this is also (from what friends have told me) the same situation in WoW where people sit in city hubs and wait to be ported into raids and dungeons.

 

Situation 2 can be rectified by programming and patching, I'm not too worried about that.

 

Situation 3 is the largest problem the community has no social feeling, people only do things if they can get XP, loot or some form of reward. For example Ilum (once fixed) has the potential to be the best PvP in the game, but no one will show up simply for fun because grinding warzones gives better rewards.

 

I've seen so many complaints from people trying to change this game to match something that they have played previously, I'd personally like to see Bioware stick with a single philosophy, cater to one play style and do it well. Then let everyone who doesn't like that play style find a game that caters for them.

 

TOR does not have to be the same as every MMORPG, it should be it's own game, I for one would like to be able to look at 3 new MMORPGs and make a choice between different types of game instead of simply different game settings.

 

I completely agree with what you say there. You have to give it to BW that I personally think they nailed the first pillar. But in all fairness it's SW so very hard to screw up. Sorry scratch that last statement xD

 

I think the community is hit and miss at the moment. In game I have a very very mixed bag. But that's to be expected in this game.

 

The practice of using this forum to mostly just vent and all the social, nice, relaxed and fun stuff is done off site is BW's fault I feel. I'm sorry to say.

 

Bioware made their bed on this issue in how they treated the Off Topic community on this forum. That was the fun social side of this forum. Bioware in complete silence cut out the forum and basically said "so what, deal with it". So now they have a very toxic forum with very little fun, chill stuff going on. Well. Bioware created this toxic environment I believe. I hang out on other forums for the nice social swtor stuff.

 

But for me it's (2). They did some bits amazingly well. But it seems every major mmo foundational component they messed up. From economy to endgame to pvp etc. The problem I have now is I don't know what "fixed" looks like from BW's perspective.

 

Like you say. Regardless of what goes on I would love to see BW create the game they wanted. I think I just feel very very very very unsure about what BW feels an mmo is.

 

And I don't know if I can pay for a 12 month conversation. At the end of which I'll find out where it's going.

 

Great chat! Very good thoughts!

 

I'm crossing my fingers BW pull it off.

Edited March 24, 2012 by RodneyMmKay

[Phenyr]

Actually they took the RPG out, you dont roleplay and create your character, you are told a story, Bioware claims that it is my story but it is not, its Biowares story.

 

There is no game where you write your own story beside the the 'game of life' and not even on that you have 100% control there are others that can drastically influence your journey.

 

Any movie has a setting, any book has a setting, fairytale's plot etc. Stories are been told, you decide if you wanna join or not. In any game there is the 'stage', sadly the whole thing about it is that no matter what choices you make on that 'stage' will not be influenced the next act nor the setting of it, you have to play along. The only thing is influences is the time of your journey from point A to point B and thats pretty much what it is.

Edited March 24, 2012 by Phenyr

[RabidPopcorn]

Any movie has a setting, any book has a setting, fairytale's plot etc. Stories are been told, you decide if you wanna join or not. In any game there is the 'stage', sadly the whole thing about it is that no matter what choices you make on that 'stage' will not influence the next act nor the setting of it, you have to play along. The only thing is influences is the time of your journey from point A to point B and thats pretty much what it is.

 

I'm kinda curious as to whether our quest choices are recorded, because it may be too early to tell whether BioWare intends to make our choices have an impact. Perhaps that person you decided not to kill when you were lv25 comes back to you during a quest you're doing at lv50?

[ConradLionhart]

I'm kinda curious as to whether our quest choices are recorded, because it may be too early to tell whether BioWare intends to make our choices have an impact. Perhaps that person you decided not to kill when you were lv25 comes back to you during a quest you're doing at lv50?

 

I want that kind of mission branching.

 

If it is too hard to do, then do it like Mass Effect and only create branches in expansions.

[DarthZaul]

You can also find the end to just about every single other game out there as well. How does that stop you from playing the game?

 

In any other game the gameplay is the reason for playing it. In TOR, once you have a main and however many alts that you are actually gonna do end game on, the story is the only reason for playing an other char because they gameplay sucks cos you are doing all the same stuff for the 4th-8th time.

[Rohke]

Story cannot support an mmo alone you still need the core mmo features that are expected these days. Also actualy story is not highly valued in the genre anyway, most people skip the text in WoW and other mmo's unless its interesting.

 

The focused too much on story and left all the other pilars weak, it takes more than 1 pillar to hold up the roof.

 

anyway if i was to review TOR in its current state

 

Gameplay: 3

Sound: 5

Story: 8

Longetvity: 5

 

overall 6.5/10

 

I see a bad future for TOR.

[kaboro]

Story is important. People will play a well-told story.

 

 

A story is a good incentive to play a game. And I don't blame Bioware for taking this gamble that it may work in an MMO.

 

I do hope that you are wrong OP, that story can't support an MMO. I hope Bioware proves people wrong.

 

Yes story is important and Bioware deserves credit for making a story-based mmo.

The problem is that story alone cannot sustain an mmo, however good that story might be.

 

Bioware's problem is that they left out too many gameplay elements that can keep players interested for a long time.

Collections, alternate advancement system, crafting and harvesting, exploration, all these are essential to keep players interested.

 

Recent subscription-based mmos rely on pvp and endgame to keep players interested, but there are many players that dont do pvp and dont do endgame, so this category will eventually be lost.

 

Last but not least its the fact that pvp'ers and endgamers are the hardest lot to please and the quickest to hit that cancel sub button.

[RodneyMmKay]

I completely and wholeheartedly disagree with you.

 

Now you could make a case for some quests in Vanilla not being connected, but there were some amazing stories told even then.... The Battle of Darrowshire? The Tirion Fordring line? Mor'Ladim? The Scythe of Elune? I could go on!

 

And they got better and better in expansions... to the point where almost everything you did was wrapped in a little mini-story that contributed to the overall end goal, wether is was the eventual march on the Black Temple, ramping up for the battle against the Lich King, or especially throughout Cataclysm.

 

If you actually read the quest text and then approached it as a story, not just go into a quest hub and "knock them out" then they were very well done, and I'd say much more contextually satisfying than TOR's questing.

 

The bonus here is that Blizzard tells story mostly though action and demonstration, as opposed to digital actors reading some lines to you.

 

Also, like a good book, there's also room for imagination in the story of WoW... Due to the way it's presented in TOR, it feels like there's no room for imagination. And that might be the biggest issue I have with it.

 

Well said. I for one still say the two new starting zones of the cat exp (esp goblin) were some of the funniest and enthralling mmo moments I've ever had leveling. Whoever wrote the new quests went out of their way to make you laugh in so many dark and in joke kinda ways; it was a blast.

 

For me though the most important part of the game was when cata first launched and the level of challenge posed by heroics etc. In the end the only reason I stopped playing wow was because they nerfed the heroics and made them easier. That game was great before they did that. But at least WoW went there. It does every once and a while like a moth to a flame. But I can't see BW ever having the balls to even think of going there.... It frightens their bottom line.

 

And that's sad. Games were supposed to be dangerous. That's the point. It's the only safe way we get to do this stuff.

Edited March 25, 2012 by RodneyMmKay

[TwwIX]

BioWare's main focus should be characters, storyline and the overall PvE experience. Instead of improving the co-op/grouping aspects of this game, they're to busy "balancing" gameplay aspects to accommodate the PvP players. If i wanted another cookie cutter, PvP oriented MMO, i'd be playing Guild Wars, EVE Online or any of the other E-Peen centric borefests.

 

 

Your strengths are characters and storylines, BioWare. I suggest that you utilize them or fade into obscurity like every other of the recent MMO's releases.

[Cygann]

What video game has a GM?

 

LOL how about Neverwinter Nights from none other but BW itself? One many play even now year and yers after release because it allow for easy user created worlds, story and in game in real time DM.

[Harower]

This is a depressing thread.. Mainly because it is pretty accurate.

 

 

Can I say that? I'm worried about speaking my mind now due to what seems to happen in the first pic of my sig.